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Sunday, March 16, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document In Britain, creationist theory is evolving

by LA Times

Thanks to Divineosaur for the link.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-euevolution16mar16,0,3494508.story?track=ntothtml

In Britain, creationist theory is evolving
By Gregory Katz, Associated Press

image description
Monty White wants creationism taught in British schools. "We do get the students to question what they're being taught about evolution," he says.

LONDON -- After the Sunday service in Westminster Chapel, where worshipers were exhorted to wage "the culture war" in the World War II spirit of Sir Winston Churchill, cabbie James McLean delivered his verdict on Charles Darwin's theory of evolution.

"Evolution is a lie, and it's being taught in schools as fact, and it's leading our kids in the wrong direction," said McLean, chatting outside the chapel. "But now people like Ken Ham are tearing evolution to pieces."

Ken Ham is the founder of Answers in Genesis, a Kentucky-based organization that is part of an ambitious effort to bring creationist theory to Britain and the rest of Europe. McLean is one of a growing number of evangelicals embracing that message -- that the true history of the Earth is told in the Bible, not Darwin's "The Origin of Species."

Europeans have long viewed the conflict between evolutionists and creationists as primarily an American phenomenon, but it has recently jumped the Atlantic with skirmishes in Italy, Germany, Poland and, notably, Britain, where Darwin was born and where he published his 1859 classic.

Darwin's defenders are fighting back. In October, the 47-nation Council of Europe, a human rights watchdog, condemned all attempts to bring creationism into Europe's schools. Bible-based theories and "religious dogma" threaten to undercut sound educational practices, it charged.

Schools are increasingly a focal point in this battle for hearts and minds.

A British branch of Answers in Genesis, which shares a website with its American counterpart, has managed to introduce its creationist point of view into science classes at a number of state-supported schools in Britain, said Monty White, the group's chief executive.

"We do go into the schools about 10 to 20 times a year and we do get the students to question what they're being taught about evolution," said White, who founded the British branch seven years ago. "And we leave them a box of books for the library."

Creationism is still a marginal issue here compared with its impact on cultural and political debate in the United States. But the budding fervor is part of a growing embrace of evangelical worship throughout much of Europe. Evangelicals say their ranks are swelling because of revulsion with the hedonism and materialism of modern society. At the same time, attendance at traditional churches is declining.

"People are looking for spirituality," White said in an interview at his office in Leicester, 90 miles north of London. "I think they are fed up with not finding true happiness. They find having a bigger car doesn't make them happy. They get drunk and the next morning they have a hangover. They take drugs but the drugs wear off. But what they find with Christianity is lasting."

Other British organizations have joined the crusade. A group called Truth in Science has sent thousands of unsolicited DVDs to every high school in Britain arguing that mankind is the result of "intelligent design," not Darwinian evolution.

In addition, the AH Trust, a charity, has announced plans to raise money for construction of a Christian theme park in northwest England with a 5,000-seat television studio that would be used for the production of Christian-oriented films. And several TV stations are devoted to Christian themes.

All this activity has lifted spirits at the Westminster Chapel, a 165-year-old evangelical church that is not affiliated with nearby Westminster Abbey, where Darwin is buried.

In the chapel, the Rev. Greg Haslam tells 150 believers that they are in a conflict with secularism that can only be won if they heed Churchill's exhortation and never give up.

"The first thing you have to do is realize we are in a war, and identify the enemy, and learn how to defeat the enemy," he said.

There is a sense inside the chapel that Christian evangelicals are successfully resisting a trend toward a completely secular Britain.

"People have walked away from God; it's not fashionable," said congregant Chris Mullins, a civil servant. "But the evangelical church does seem to be growing and I'm very encouraged by that. In what is a very secular society, there are people returning to God."

School curricula generally hold that Darwin's theory has been backed up by so many scientific discoveries that it can now be regarded as fact. But Mullins believes creationism also deserves a hearing in the classroom.

"Looking at the evidence, creationism at the least seems a theory worthy of examination," he said. "Personally, I think it is true and I think the truth will win out eventually. It's a question of how long it takes."

Terry Sanderson, president of Britain's National Secular Society, a group founded in 1866 to limit the influence of religious leaders, said that the groups advocating a literal interpretation of the Bible are making headway.

"Creationism is creeping into the schools," he said. "There is a constant pressure to get these ideas into the schools."

The trend goes beyond evangelical Christianity. Sanderson said the British government is taking over funding of about 100 Islamic schools even though they teach the Koranic version of creationism. He said the government fears imposing evolution theory on the curriculum lest it be branded as anti-Islamic.

The Council of Europe spoke up last fall after Harun Yahya, a prominent Muslim creationist in Turkey, tried to place his lavishly produced 600-page book, "The Atlas of Creation," in public schools in France, Switzerland, Belgium and Spain.

"These trends are very dangerous," Anne Brasseur, author of the Council of Europe report, said in an interview.

Brasseur said recent skirmishes in Italy and Germany illustrate the creationists' tactics. She said Italian schools were ordered to stop teaching evolution when Silvio Berlusconi was prime minister, although the edict seems to have had little effect in practice. In Germany, she said, a state education minister briefly allowed creationism to be taught in biology class.

The rupture between theology and evolution in Europe is relatively recent. For many years people who held evangelical views also endorsed mainstream scientific theory, said Simon Barrow, co-director of Ekklesia, a British-based, Christian-oriented research group. He said the split was imported from the United States in the last decade.

"There is a lot of American influence, and there are a lot of moral and political and financial resources flowing from the United States to here," he said. "Now you have more extreme religious groups trying to get a foothold."

In some cases, the schools have become the battlegrounds. Richard Dawkins, the Oxford university biologist and author of last year's international best-seller "The God Delusion," frequently lectures students about the marvels of evolution only to find that the students' views have already been shaped by the creationist lobby.

"I think it's so sad that children should be fobbed off with these second-rate myths," he said.

"The theory of evolution is one of the most powerful pieces of scientific thinking ever produced and the evidence for it is overwhelming. I think creationism is pernicious because if you don't know much it sounds kind of plausible and it's easy to come into schools and subvert children."

White, the director of the British Answers in Genesis, is well aware that the group's school program is contentious. The group has removed information about it from its website to avoid antagonizing people.

The group operates a warehouse with $150,000 worth of DVDs, books and comics promoting creationism, but he says he only sends speakers and materials into schools that invite Answers in Genesis to make a presentation.

White, 63, said he was reared as an atheist and, after earning a doctorate in chemistry, embraced evangelical Christianity in 1964.

He says that when he is asked to speak to science classes, he challenges the accuracy of radioactive dating which shows the world to be thousands of millions of years old and says that the Bible is a more accurate description of how mankind began. He personally believes the Earth is between 6,000 and 12,000 years old.

"Usually I find the discussion goes on science, science and science, and then when the lesson is finished one or two students say, 'Can we talk about other things?' and I sit down with them and usually they want to talk about Christianity," he said. "They want to know, why do you believe in God? Why do you believe in the Bible? How can you be sure it's the word of God?"

Dawkins feels the effect. He said he is discouraged when he visits schools and gets questions from students who have obviously been influenced by material from Answers in Genesis. "I continually get the same rather stupid points straight from their pamphlets," he said.

White is getting ready for a visit by Ken Ham, who will preach at Westminster Chapel this spring. Meanwhile, he is pleased that small groups of creation science advocates now meet regularly in Oxford, Edinburgh, Northampton and other British cities.

"The creation movement is certainly growing," he said. "There are more groups than there were five years ago. There are more people like me going out speaking about it, and there's more interest. You have these little groups forming all over the place."

Comments 1 - 50 of 129 |

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1. Comment #144526 by leodavinci on March 16, 2008 at 9:39 am

 avatarDisgusting. I honestly think that Youtube will be the battleground that will win or lose this war, you can force a pupil to read whatever you want them to, but you cannot restrict them in their own homes.
If you have a look at any religiously themed video (pick a random one) on YT you will see a strong majority on our side, it is heartening.

Other Comments by leodavinci

2. Comment #144527 by atheist1981 on March 16, 2008 at 9:40 am

Dawkins new to be released book about evolution is needed more than ever. I'll be jumping for joy when I get it in the mail one day.

Other Comments by atheist1981

3. Comment #144535 by emmet on March 16, 2008 at 10:07 am

 avatarMercifully, European countries have national curricula revised periodically by expert panels, not local school boards populated by non-experts. The only chance of a cab-driver having the slightest influence on the national science curriculum in Britain is if Richard takes up a new career behind the wheel after he retires from Oxford.

Other Comments by emmet

4. Comment #144538 by Partisan on March 16, 2008 at 10:10 am

 avatarI'm confident that this will never become popular in Europe.

Other Comments by Partisan

5. Comment #144539 by Apathy personified on March 16, 2008 at 10:10 am

 avatarWell, it would appear that we have an escalating fight on our hands.
Personally, I have no problem with children being taught creatonism, IN RELIGIOUS EDUCATION classes, if you wanna teach something in a science lesson, it has to be science otherwise it becomes a pretty pathetic charade.
What really annoys me is that this is clearly a well financed and planned scheme, that is deliberately trying to undercut scientific thought and indoctrinate children, for some very dubious reasons.

Other Comments by Apathy personified

6. Comment #144541 by Geoff on March 16, 2008 at 10:15 am

 avatarBefore everyone gets too scared, here's an excerpt from the official Government response to a petition last year:

The Government is aware that a number of concerns have been raised in the media and elsewhere as to whether creationism and intelligent design have a place in science lessons. The Government is clear that creationism and intelligent design are not part of the science National Curriculum programmes of study and should not be taught as science.

Full text here:
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page12021.asp

Other Comments by Geoff

7. Comment #144542 by Apathy personified on March 16, 2008 at 10:15 am

 avatarHa, sorry i've just noticed the photo, a bearded old man, maleavalently grinning over a map of Britain, like some sort of bond villian

Other Comments by Apathy personified

8. Comment #144546 by Animavore on March 16, 2008 at 10:21 am

 avatarYawn!

Wake me when the world wakes up to reason.

"snore"

Other Comments by Animavore

9. Comment #144547 by KrisRamJ on March 16, 2008 at 10:22 am

 avatar"I think they are fed up with not finding true happiness. They find having a bigger car doesn't make them happy. They get drunk and the next morning they have a hangover. They take drugs but the drugs wear off. But what they find with Christianity is lasting."

..or they could just try exercising their brains and thinking for themselves instead of being led by money/drugs/religion.

I'd never even considered the hardline koranic creationism though, there's another thin end of a wedge...

Other Comments by KrisRamJ

10. Comment #144552 by jhm on March 16, 2008 at 10:27 am

 avatarPartisan:

Don't look now.

Other Comments by jhm

11. Comment #144553 by Double Bass Atheist on March 16, 2008 at 10:27 am

 avatarAs an American, I've always looked to European countries with envy. The secular, rational nature of your countries gives me hope that in can be this way one day here in the US. In other words, Europe (especially my friends in the UK) are an "inspiration."

When I read words like:
"There is a lot of American influence, and there are a lot of moral and political and financial resources flowing from the United States to here"

...I absolutely cringe!
Damn, this pisses me off!!!

We need your influence here, not the other way around!

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

12. Comment #144557 by Koreman on March 16, 2008 at 10:30 am

So, when evolution is banned everywhere and hospitals have been closed down by lack of medicine, what's next? Einstein? Quantum mechanics? Maybe children should be taught that nuclear power is just a trick of the devil cleverly deluding us. There is no such thing as atoms and molecules. Proof? You can't see them.

These people have serious mental problems.

Other Comments by Koreman

13. Comment #144563 by epeeist on March 16, 2008 at 10:41 am

 avatarComment #144557 by Koreman

So, when evolution is banned everywhere and hospitals have been closed down by lack of medicine, what's next? Einstein? Quantum mechanics?
Further down the line - expect things like geology, archaeology, anthropology and ancient history to be hit first.

Other Comments by epeeist

14. Comment #144567 by JanChan on March 16, 2008 at 10:47 am

Dawkins feels the effect. He said he is discouraged when he visits schools and gets questions from students who have obviously been influenced by material from Answers in Genesis. "I continually get the same rather stupid points straight from their pamphlets," he said.

Their same old arguments are coming up so many times that, as Hitchens would say, they aren't worth debating, all you can do is underline them.

Other Comments by JanChan

15. Comment #144568 by Bonzai on March 16, 2008 at 10:51 am

JanChan,

I think they do worth debating at least in the school setting as the students in the audience might mistaken a refusal to answer as inability to answer.

Other Comments by Bonzai

16. Comment #144572 by Geoff on March 16, 2008 at 10:54 am

 avatarIf anyone is interested, AiG & Ken Ham are doing a series of talks in the UK next month:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/events/details.aspx?Event_ID=5644

Some RD.net members are going to be giving out flyers at the events (Steve Zara has been closely involved in the design of the flyer!).

More about it here:
http://richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=37075&start=0

and the flyer can be seen here:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gpjnow/creationistflyer.doc

I'm hoping to get to the Liverpool one on March 31st.

Other Comments by Geoff

17. Comment #144575 by notsobad on March 16, 2008 at 11:01 am

 avatarThere aren't more creationists. There are just more people willing to say they are creationists because they are convinced that calling it science or theory makes them smart.

Other Comments by notsobad

18. Comment #144576 by Verylee on March 16, 2008 at 11:03 am

 avatarI am sure in this Celeb obsessed world that there are many atheist celebrities who would be willing/happy to put their names to a short piece telling children to think for themselves. Rowan Atkinson, Ricky Gervaise, Michael Stipe, Brian Eno, Brian May, Jodie Foster, Stephen Fry, Eddy Izzard and so on and on. There are so many of them, intelligent articulate and in the media entertainment front line. It is a resource that needs to be tapped. "Kids....Just say no"! Maybe the children will listen to their heroes.

Other Comments by Verylee

19. Comment #144587 by BillySands on March 16, 2008 at 11:25 am

 avatarSorry, THEORY??????????

Wonder if his doctrate was actually in radiochemistry - doubt it some how

Other Comments by BillySands

20. Comment #144596 by Steve Zara on March 16, 2008 at 11:36 am

 avatar
Some RD.net members are going to be giving out flyers at the events (Steve Zara has been closely involved in the design of the flyer!).


Actually, just wording. Others have done far more, and deserve to take a bow.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

21. Comment #144598 by Pattern Seeker on March 16, 2008 at 11:44 am

 avatarI think the last name of the founder of 'Answers in Genesis'(ha) actually says it all-HAM.

According to the dictionary the 2nd definition of 'Ham' states-
(noun), an excessively theatrical actor.

That sounds about right.

Other Comments by Pattern Seeker

22. Comment #144607 by Zaphod on March 16, 2008 at 12:09 pm

 avatar""Evolution is a lie, and it's being taught in schools as fact, and it's leading our kids in the wrong direction," said McLean, chatting outside the chapel. "But now people like Ken Ham are tearing evolution to pieces.""

Another example of fractal wrongness.

Other Comments by Zaphod

23. Comment #144628 by Roy_H on March 16, 2008 at 1:08 pm

 avatarComment #144526 by leodavinci on March 16, 2008 at 9:39 am
For example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BS5vid4GkEY

These are excellent!

Other Comments by Roy_H

24. Comment #144638 by Inferno on March 16, 2008 at 1:48 pm

 avatarI'll start taking creationism more seriously when it does two things:

1. Some respected atheist scientists agree with it.
2. It proposes that the "creator" is likely to be a highly advance alien, or a time traveller from the far future. Both of these being more likely than a superpowerful mystical spirit being called god.

Other Comments by Inferno

25. Comment #144639 by Buddha on March 16, 2008 at 1:51 pm

 avatarI just had brief visit to the Answers in Genesis website and the first thing I clapped my eyes on was this foul piece of bare faced dishonesty:

If dinosaurs evolved from amphibians, there should be, for example, fossil evidence of animals that are part dinosaur and part something else. However, there is no proof of this anywhere. In fact, if you go into any museum you will see fossils of dinosaurs that are 100% dinosaur, not something in between. There are no 25%, 50%, 75%, or even 99% dinosaursâ€"they are all 100% dinosaur!


How about Archosauria, Ornithodira, Dinosauromorpha etc. you truth distorting, lying scumbags!

Good luck to those of you who will be challenging them during their talks in the UK this month. If they come anywhere near Monkey World in Dorset, I shall give them both barrels!

Other Comments by Buddha

26. Comment #144641 by Bonzai on March 16, 2008 at 1:55 pm

Other than saying evolution is wrong what is the central "theory" of creationism? What are its positive contents?

Let's say by some disaster the creationists are allowed equal time in the biology class room what are they going to say? I mean, it would only take a few second to finish their syllabus because it is just one sentence "God did it."


Looking at the bright side like the Monty Python advised, at least you can save some money on text books if these clowns get their way and exams are going to be really easy.

Other Comments by Bonzai

27. Comment #144642 by Teratornis on March 16, 2008 at 1:55 pm

 avatarIn reply to comment #144553 by Double Bass Atheist :

"There is a lot of American influence, and there are a lot of moral and political and financial resources flowing from the United States to here"
(...)
We need your influence here, not the other way around!


This is probably small comfort, but the U.S. appears likely to suffer much greater economic damage from the imminent decline in the world's production of conventional oil than Europe will, because Europe's economy is about twice as efficient overall in terms of energy, and similarly with respect to the premium form of mobile energy: liquid fuels from petroleum. I.e., most European nations burn much less petroleum per unit of GDP than the U.S. does.

Virtually all national economies appear likely to take a mighty blow from declining oil production over the next several decades, but the U.S. will really get creamed since at least half the population here lives in suburban sprawl and is utterly dependent on personal automobiles, both physically and psychologically. (I think the psychological addiction to automobility is actually a more serious problem than the mere physical addiction, because we could greatly reduce the physical addiction with some straightforward rearrangements, but the psychological addiction blinds people to the need to get started on the rearrangements while there is still time.)

In theory, the U.S. has plenty of wind resources to make up for the energy loss from declining petroleum, along with the proven technology to exploit wind economically. The U.S. wind industry is booming as is the case in other countries. But it's starting from practically zero in terms of overall energy production, there is no magic way to get electricity from wind into the existing motor vehicle fleet, and most people in the U.S. seem too stupid to figure out how to telecommute to work with existing technology, so the U.S. appears to be in for a wrenching economic transition.

I would imagine that while the U.S. is struggling to cope with its almost inconceivable yet imminent disaster, the international influence of the U.S. can only decline. People here are going to be more concerned with how to span the great distances from their McMansions to offices and big-box stores every day. When gasoline (petrol) hits $15/gal here, suburban evangelicals aren't going to have the disposable income to support their own missionaries.

Instead they will be sending all their money to Saudi Arabia, to support Saudi Arabia's Wahhabi missionaries. And no, that is not exactly progress.

Other Comments by Teratornis

28. Comment #144657 by Animavore on March 16, 2008 at 2:19 pm

 avatarWhy to they keep equating atheism with hedonism? Hedonism is a choice amongst atheists and I myself lived that life in my early 20's but, I just grew out of it. Gradually. No trumpets, no parade, now I immerse myself in books on various topics to keep my mind active and exercised. I never felt I had to cling to the life preserver of Christianity or any other religion to mend ways which I never thought needed mending because I didn't have the AA style guilt culture to make me feel debased, to lower me down to a miserable wretch so that it could build me back up again to be a man. (whatever that even means...how many roads must a man walk and all that) More indication that religion is for those with weak constitutions.

Other Comments by Animavore

29. Comment #144662 by Bonzai on March 16, 2008 at 2:31 pm

Sanderson said the British government is taking over funding of about 100 Islamic schools even though they teach the Koranic version of creationism. He said the government fears imposing evolution theory on the curriculum lest it be branded as anti-Islamic.


Excuse me?! This is the most stupid thing I have read.

Other Comments by Bonzai

30. Comment #144680 by D'Arcy on March 16, 2008 at 3:17 pm

 avatarIsn't it amazing how a few thousand dollars can buy so much influence into what is taught in British (and no doubt other) schools. These pissquicks of a bygone age are now so determined to push their fantasy that science must now fly out the window.

Mr White is reported as saying:

He says that when he is asked to speak to science classes, he challenges the accuracy of radioactive dating which shows the world to be thousands of millions of years old and says that the Bible is a more accurate description of how mankind began. He personally believes the Earth is between 6,000 and 12,000 years old.


If Mr. White is so certain of his viewpoint, why doesn't he challenge the scientific basis of radiometric dating head on, by getting his own view published in a respected scientific journal? My suspicion is that the man has more chance of passing through the eye of a needle than he has of getting his view thus published. But maybe Mr. White will prove me wrong!

Maybe velociraptors used to play with children after all!

Other Comments by D'Arcy

31. Comment #144681 by Matt7895 on March 16, 2008 at 3:21 pm

 avatarThis is really frightening.

Other Comments by Matt7895

32. Comment #144683 by refuteist on March 16, 2008 at 3:23 pm

Sorry if this link has already been given--have not had time time to read all the posts:
If you think education in UK is not under threat from this rubbish see

http://newhumanist.org.uk/1477

for an outline of beliefs of staff operating the Emmanuel College version a Vardy foundation school. The head of science also believes that the reason that there are marine fossils on the tops of mountain is that they were left there when the Flood receeded!

Other Comments by refuteist

33. Comment #144692 by mattTR on March 16, 2008 at 3:44 pm

It seems this Answers in Genesis group is touring the UK over the nxt few months - anyone fancy going to the events & asking awkward questions? Or standing outside flyering people as they go in & out?

There's no use decrying the slow creep of creationism if we atheists arent willing to go out n challenge it.

Other Comments by mattTR

34. Comment #144694 by mattTR on March 16, 2008 at 3:52 pm

Check out this Monty White guy on http://bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/MontyWhite

It seems despite his claims to be a scientist he only has 2 yrs research experience - & his 'expertise', such that it is, is in semiconductors and the like, not in anything related to evolution like geology or biochemistry. Furthermore, his scientific knowledge dates from the 60's and is totally out of date.

It seems he did start off studying geology, but switched to chemistry - he probably couldnt hack it. I wonder why?

Other Comments by mattTR

35. Comment #144696 by phasmagigas on March 16, 2008 at 3:58 pm

 avatarwhat a laugh, i'd like to see the answers in genesis brigade trying to influence majority islamic schools in the UK.

id be suprised if the vast majority of science teachers in the UK are not totally opposed to teaching creationsim in the UK. what a fucking joke, can you imagine that in the curriculum, i mean, just what would it actually include???? sweet fuck all.

theres no time as it stands to get the basics of science into the heads of kids anyway never mind throwing myths at them too.

lets keep that in those nice RE lesson that the UK has.

there is no way this will actually be realised, remember the religious mind is very good at wishful thinking.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

36. Comment #144698 by LeeC on March 16, 2008 at 4:02 pm

 avatarIsn't the problem to all this creationist nonsense easily resolved?

Just teach it in the schools (not in the science class of course, that is for science)

Kids should be "forced" to learn this stuff in their religious classes. That will put a stop to it. The religious nutters get what they want - no problem.

Of course, all the creation theories have to be taught, not just a single bible cult - all the major creation theories have to be taught, without bias, with just the facts - at the end of the term the students will be given an exam and asked "Which creation theory is right and why?"

Should be a laugh...

Lee

Other Comments by LeeC

37. Comment #144699 by phasmagigas on March 16, 2008 at 4:04 pm

 avatara few years ago i was talking to a head of science of a UK school, she had received some creationist material through the mail and went ballistic, she made sure it was used in the best possible way......via the recycle bin.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

38. Comment #144700 by Steve Zara on March 16, 2008 at 4:05 pm

 avatarComment #144692 by mattTR
anyone fancy going to the events & asking awkward questions? Or standing outside flyering people as they go in & out?

Comment #144572 by Geoff
Some RD.net members are going to be giving out flyers at the events


Other Comments by Steve Zara

39. Comment #144701 by frederik on March 16, 2008 at 4:06 pm

I believe man and woman were conceived by the proverbial purple teapot circling the sun, and sent to earth to drink tea. The amount of proof available for the factual accuracy of my beliefs equals that available for the biblical story of creation. I demand the teapot theory be taught as an alternative to evolution in schools.

By the way, this Monty White is an interesting fellow, earning a doctorate at the age of 19. At a christian university? Maybe that explains his problems with determining the date of events.

Other Comments by frederik

40. Comment #144702 by heafnerj on March 16, 2008 at 4:08 pm

 avatarYet another reason to be ashamed of being an American (my personal opinion only, mind you). As a college science instructor, this is very, very discouraging. Then again, it's not exactly a conspiracy either. Conspiracies are carried out in secret. The Wedge Document clearly lays out the strategy that is working just as planned.

Other Comments by heafnerj

41. Comment #144703 by LeeC on March 16, 2008 at 4:08 pm

 avatarRE: Comment #144694 by mattTR
It seems this Answers in Genesis group is touring the UK over the nxt few months - anyone fancy going to the events & asking awkward questions? Or standing outside flyering people as they go in & out?

There's no use decrying the slow creep of creationism if we atheists arent willing to go out n challenge it


I would love to do that - handout leaflets, then go in and watch the show/lecture for a laugh... but I live in the wrong country now (and no longer a student so feel I am getting too old for such things).

You will need to think of what you put on the flyers... erm, any tips?

Lee

Other Comments by LeeC

42. Comment #144704 by LeeC on March 16, 2008 at 4:12 pm

 avatarRE Comment #144699 by phasmagigas

a few years ago i was talking to a head of science of a UK school, she had received some creationist material through the mail and went ballistic, she made sure it was used in the best possible way......via the recycle bin.


I disagree... the best "possible way" would be to use the material in class as a critical reading exercise. Students need to be taught how to read this stuff with a smile :)

Other Comments by LeeC

43. Comment #144710 by waffleface on March 16, 2008 at 4:24 pm

"I'm confident that this will never become popular in Europe. "
Unfortunately, Europe is not the haven of secularism it appears to be. Even in Belgium, 40% of people believe in some sort of god, and there is an active fundie front (not christian, for once, but Muslim) pushing creationism. They're even mailing (free!) coffee-table books to schools and universities.

Other Comments by waffleface

44. Comment #144719 by phasmagigas on March 16, 2008 at 4:36 pm

 avatarleeC
I disagree... the best "possible way" would be to use the material in class as a critical reading exercise. Students need to be taught how to read this stuff with a smile :)


im not sure, even mentioning it is a bad idea unless you are very good teacher who knows evolution very well.

Not all science or even biol teachers know evo that well (one could argue that they should!) its like making an omlette, its very easy to do but also easy to get wrong.

A teacher not experienced in creationist arguments might find themselves in a compromised position if they are asked an anti evolution question they cannot answer well.

creationsim was mentioned in the curriculum a few years ago (still now??) but only in historic context of what people generally accepted in times past. The notion of special critical thinking components to lessons is almost impossible in the average UK school and it is dangerous to include creation ideas there as its contentious anyway and bullshit to begin with. why not something like the history of the knowledge of the earths interior as an alternative.

i'll take this a bit further and say that there is a distict possibility that the 'contention' of evolution could reach a critical mass and become a major bugbear for the UK's muslim component, unfortunate that the simple most impressive bit of deductive reasoning from any person could be demonised because it is a natural focal point for anti western/pro religious ideals.

this is useful of course:

http://www.ase.org.uk/htm/homepage/notes_news/oct2007/ScienceEduc_IntelliDesign_Creationism.pdf

says ID isnt science and shouldnt be presented even as a 'controversy'.

good.

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45. Comment #144726 by Richard Morgan on March 16, 2008 at 4:42 pm

 avatar Oops! A "last" last music update:

(I'm sorry, I know I promised. I repent. I'll go into the garden to eat worms.
But this last piece was screaming to be expressed. Or as Prospect magazine might have said, but didn't, I've "had it in me" for a long time.)
*Buttons coat and picks up brolly and heads for the door.*



Richard Dawkins:
What would music inspired by the fleas sound like?
Something to make them seem ridiculous, pathetic, desperate?

I felt there was also a need for bombast and chaos and a little dose of hollowness!

Past Fleas


I decided to keep the title "Past Fleas" because, one day soon, that's what they will all be.
Past fleas.
Les puces du passé

Whilst The God Delusion will remain a benchmark publication for future generations, the fleas have produced no more than toilet seat dribbles that will trickle between the cracks of the public memory and quickly evaporate, leaving only a briefly lingering unpleasant smell.



http://www.myspace.com/fleabytes

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

46. Comment #144752 by LeeC on March 16, 2008 at 5:21 pm

 avatarRE: Comment #144719

Hi phasmagigas,
im not sure, even mentioning it is a bad idea unless you are very good teacher who knows evolution very well.

You said this person was "head of science" didn't you?

I'm sorry, but I think they should have enough knowledge of evolution to rip this literature apart. (If not, I want to know how they got the position)
Not all science or even biol teachers know evo that well (one could argue that they should!) its like making an omlette, its very easy to do but also easy to get wrong.

I know what you mean, to a point - I got myself on a PGCE course many years back, and with only a physics degree to protect me - I was teaching Biology to 15 year old kids... scary.

However, I am more talking about critical reading - the lesson is more for an English class than science but it could (and probably should) still be done in a science class in case technical questions are raised. (Cross curriculum actives I think they use to call it)

You most have read a few of these creationist books in your time; they are more about misquoting scientists and evolution than giving anything new that needs to be challenge. The premise of the lesson would be to question what is provided.

The follow-up lesson could then be evolution (and in the RE class they can talk about other creation myths)

I personally think it would be fun to teach (and this normally makes it a good lesson)
A teacher not experienced in creationist arguments might find themselves in a compromised position if they are asked an anti evolution question they cannot answer well.

A teacher prepares for the class - they read the creationist book first and have answers to each point in the book "in hand" ready for any such question. This is what a good teacher does before every lesson - prepare.

They are teaching students at a school with kids between 11-16, if a teacher does not know how to handle a "tough question" then they will not be lasting long teaching science I would have thought.
The notion of special critical thinking components to lessons is almost impossible in the average UK school and it is dangerous to include creation ideas there as its contentious anyway and bullshit to begin with. why not something like the history of the knowledge of the earths interior as an alternative.

I remember as an under-grad being set a homework from a lecture which involved me having to read a chapter from "a journey to the centre of the Earth" and point out what was physically wrong with the story - it was fun - but challenging books of fiction and challenging the creationist writing is a little different (OK still fiction, but sold as non-fiction which is the point).

If the science teacher is not prepared to challenge the creationist literature in lessons, who will? Would you prefer it goes unchallenged and the student to work it out for themselves later in life?

I personally think the teacher should be up to the challenge, but "easier" topics could be tackled as you suggest. Maybe the teacher could "warm up" on an easier target like alien landings or something.

Lee

Other Comments by LeeC

47. Comment #144754 by FightingFalcon on March 16, 2008 at 5:27 pm

 avatarHa! Europeans can feel the pain that we Americans have experienced for years now!

You can deal with the crazies for the next few years. We're tired of dealing with them haha

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

48. Comment #144758 by Cerberus on March 16, 2008 at 5:33 pm

By the way, this Monty White is an interesting fellow, earning a doctorate at the age of 19. At a christian university? Maybe that explains his problems with determining the date of events.


I've noticed that as well, in fact, he earned his doctorate in 1970, which still mean he earned it when he was 25. The article is still wrong though, he did not get his doctorate before becoming a YEC.

Other Comments by Cerberus

49. Comment #144760 by phasmagigas on March 16, 2008 at 5:36 pm

 avatarlee,

you make some fair points and you are well aware of the teaching situation with a PGCE. the head of science in question could have ripped the creationist literature a new asshole but she simply threw it away, it wasnt supposed to be in the school in the first place, it had no place there and was rightly put in the recycle.

no mattter how well a teacher could show the inadequacies of creationism to pupils many are going to reject it anyway as we see the world over. because it can oppose religious beliefs it becomes contentious way above that which it should. It would be great if the creationist idea could be mentioned (as it was) but then have it ripped apart bit by bit but unless a consistently effective teaching method was used it could prove counter productive. Its not even something that could be realistically implemented except with upper ability kids, its difficult enough as it is to get the basics of heredity and evo to the lower/middle kids.

another point, getting really creation savvy isnt easy, im not sure every teacher would have anywhere near enough time or inclination to start identifying false arguments and bogus information, I agree that it would be great to get the kids 'evo savvy' from the onset but it could be asking to much from an already saturated timetable.

interestingly if evolution occupied a more prominent position in the biol curriculum instead of being tagged on at the end in year 11 there could well be a case of looking at the 'contentions' but only from a historical/social viewpoint.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

50. Comment #144766 by LeeC on March 16, 2008 at 5:40 pm

 avatarHi phasmagigas,

I missed some of your post it seems.

Thanks for the link to the pdf... very interesting - liked most of it, about from this little bit in the introduction…

"An important professional challenge for science teachers is the need to develop a sensitivity to the many belief systems which will permeate a group of learners and to ensure that, should questions of belief arise, they are well prepared to offer an appropriate level of engagement which retains a focus on science and what constitutes a viable scientific theory, whilst respecting the personal belief systems of individual learners."

I understand what they are saying with "respect", but if those beliefs are unscientific the child needs to be told. The child should not expect to get a pass if they write in an exam that the Earth is 10,000 years old for example.

Cheers

Lee

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