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Sunday, March 16, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document The Great Tantra Challenge

by Rationalist International

Thanks to Richard Prins for the link.

http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/2008/20080310/en_1.html

The Great Tantra Challenge

image descriptionOn 3 March 2008, in a popular TV show, Sanal Edamaruku, the president of Rationalist International, challenged India's most "powerful" tantrik (black magician) to demonstrate his powers on him. That was the beginning of an unprecedented experiment. After all his chanting of mantra (magic words) and ceremonies of tantra failed, the tantrik decided to kill Sanal Edamaruku with the "ultimate destruction ceremony" on live TV. Sanal Edamaruku agreed and sat in the altar of the black magic ritual. India TV observed skyrocketing viewership rates.

Everything started, when Uma Bharati (former chief minister of the state of Madhya Pradesh) accused her political opponents in a public statement of using tantrik powers to inflict damage upon her. In fact, within a few days, the unlucky lady had lost her favorite uncle, hit the door of her car against her head and found her legs covered with wounds and blisters.

India TV, one of India's major Hindi channels with national outreach, invited Sanal Edamaruku for a discussion on "Tantrik power versus Science". Pandit Surinder Sharma, who claims to be the tantrik of top politicians and is well known from his TV shows, represented the other side. During the discussion, the tantrik showed a small human shape of wheat flour dough, laid a thread around it like a noose and tightened it. He claimed that he was able to kill any person he wanted within three minutes by using black magic. Sanal challenged him to try and kill him.

The tantrik tried. He chanted his mantras (magic words): "Om lingalingalinalinga, kilikili…." But his efforts did not show any impact on Sanal — not after three minutes, and not after five. The time was extended and extended again. The original discussion program should have ended here, but the "breaking news" of the ongoing great tantra challenge was overrunning all program schedules.

image descriptionNow the tantrik changed his technique. He started sprinkling water on Sanal and brandishing a knife in front of him. Sometimes he moved the blade all over his body. Sanal did not flinch. Then he touched Sanal's head with his hand, rubbing and rumpling up his hair, pressing his forehead, laying his hand over his eyes, pressing his fingers against his temples. When he pressed harder and harder, Sanal reminded him that he was supposed to use black magic only, not forceful attacks to bring him down. The tantrik took a new run: water, knife, fingers, mantras. But Sanal kept looking very healthy and even amused.

After nearly two hours, the anchor declared the tantrik's failure. The tantrik, unwilling to admit defeat, tried the excuse that a very strong god whom Sanal might be worshipping obviously protected him. "No, I am an atheist," said Sanal Edamaruku. Finally, the disgraced tantrik tried to save his face by claiming that there was a never-failing special black magic for ultimate destruction, which could, however, only been done at night. Bad luck again, he did not get away with this, but was challenged to prove his claim this very night in another "breaking news" live program.

image descriptionDuring the next three hours, India TV ran announcements for The Great Tantra Challenge that called several hundred million people to their TV sets.

The encounter took place under the open night sky. The tantrik and his two assistants were kindling a fire and staring into the flames. Sanal was in good humour. Once the ultimate magic was invoked, there wouldn't be any way back, the tantrik warned. Within two minutes, Sanal would get crazy, and one minute later he would scream in pain and die. Didn't he want to save his life before it was too late? Sanal laughed, and the countdown begun. The tantriks chanted their "Om lingalingalingalinga, kilikilikili…." followed by ever changing cascades of strange words and sounds. The speed increased hysterically. They threw all kinds of magic ingredients into the flames that produced changing colours, crackling and fizzling sounds and white smoke. While chanting, the tantrik came close to Sanal, moved his hands in front of him and touched him, but was called back by the anchor. After the earlier covert attempts of the tantrik to use force against Sanal, he was warned to keep distance and avoid touching Sanal. But the tantrik "forgot" this rule again and again.

Now the tantrik wrote Sanal's name on a sheet of paper, tore it into small pieces, dipped them into a pot with boiling butter oil and threw them dramatically into the flames. Nothing happened. Singing and singing, he sprinkled water on Sanal, mopped a bunch of peacock feathers over his head, threw mustard seed into the fire and other outlandish things more. Sanal smiled, nothing happened, and time was running out. Only seven more minutes before midnight, the tantrik decided to use his ultimate weapon: the clod of wheat flour dough. He kneaded it and powdered it with mysterious ingredients, then asked Sanal to touch it. Sanal did so, and the grand magic finale begun. The tantrik pierced blunt nails on the dough, then cut it wildly with a knife and threw them into the fire. That moment, Sanal should have broken down. But he did not. He laughed. Forty more seconds, counted the anchor, twenty, ten, five… it's over!


image descriptionMillions of people must have uttered a sigh of relief in front their TVs. Sanal was very much alive. Tantra power had miserably failed. Tantriks are creating such a scaring atmosphere that even people, who know that black magic has no base, can just break down out of fear, commented a scientist during the program. It needs enormous courage and confidence to challenge them by actually putting one's life at risk, he said. By doing so, Sanal Edamaruku has broken the spell, and has taken away much of the fear of those who witnessed his triumph.

In this night, one of the most dangerous and wide spread superstitions in India suffered a severe blow.

The whole program is video-recorded and is available. If you want a copy, please contact: info_desk@rationalistinternational.net

Comments 1 - 50 of 83 |

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1. Comment #144544 by Animavore on March 16, 2008 at 10:18 am

 avatarDammit. I was really hoping he'd die.

Other Comments by Animavore

2. Comment #144545 by Geoff on March 16, 2008 at 10:19 am

 avatarROFL!

Other Comments by Geoff

3. Comment #144551 by Thor'Ungal on March 16, 2008 at 10:27 am

 avatar
Dammit. I was really hoping he'd die.


enemy of the family?

Other Comments by Thor'Ungal

4. Comment #144554 by Animavore on March 16, 2008 at 10:28 am

 avatarNa. Just to wipe the smug off his face.

Other Comments by Animavore

5. Comment #144555 by Verylee on March 16, 2008 at 10:28 am

 avatar
In this night, one of the most dangerous and wide spread superstitions in India suffered a severe blow.

Ha ha ha! There will probably be a resurgence in the belief of the dark arts and mysticism now! Watch this space!

Other Comments by Verylee

6. Comment #144556 by matlot on March 16, 2008 at 10:29 am

Fantastic article. This type of thing should be carried out wherever there is irrationality. Let's call these charlatans out!!

Other Comments by matlot

7. Comment #144559 by KrisRamJ on March 16, 2008 at 10:31 am

 avatarHahaha... Sanal is smiling and laughing his ass off in every photo...

Other Comments by KrisRamJ

8. Comment #144562 by kaiser on March 16, 2008 at 10:38 am

This could also have ended bad.

Don`t get me wrong, I don`t believe that there are any ghosts or demons who could kill you.

But there is also the complexity of the brain and altered states. For example hypnosis (and I don`t mean stage hypnosis). Only thanks to India the "skill of hypnosis" survived, after it was banned in europe.
And the hypnosis skills in India are much higher than in the western world. Some of these guys have serious hynosis skills (much better than the american tv evangelicals) and they could have harmed him (but I guess not really kill him).

But if one of these hypnotists harmed him, people would think it was because of his "black magic". Thank fsm that nothing happened and the charlatan is now exposed- although still many millions will continue to believe in his magic powers.

Other Comments by kaiser

9. Comment #144564 by Animavore on March 16, 2008 at 10:42 am

 avatarHey that rationalist international site is full of interesting articles.

Other Comments by Animavore

10. Comment #144570 by Richard Morgan on March 16, 2008 at 10:52 am

kaiser
And the hypnosis skills in India are much higher than in the western world.

"Hypnosis skills"?
Oh dear - I do hope you don't really believe that.
If so, perhaps you have been hypnotised into believing it!
Exploiting pre-existent belief structures, ok, but "skills"?
(I am speaking from considerable experience of "Ericksonian hypnotherapy" and "Sophrology" and "NLP" and other woo-woo wonders of the New Age. And India, its people and cultures.)

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

11. Comment #144573 by Timmeh! on March 16, 2008 at 10:55 am

 avatarI don't know if I would have been brave enough to do it. I wouldn't put it beyond these loonies to conceal a poisoned needle about their person to stick me with during the ceremony, or just stab me with a knife out of frustration after having been made to look a tw@ in front of millions.

Perhaps one of his fruitcake followers will now poison or otherwise injure the chap; then they can claim it was a delayed reaction from the ceremony, which they doubtless also will if he's hit by a bus anytime in the next decade.

Other Comments by Timmeh!

12. Comment #144581 by stephenray on March 16, 2008 at 11:17 am

How much harm can you come to from someone who needs to devote one hand all the time to stop his sheet coming off..?

Other Comments by stephenray

13. Comment #144582 by Janus on March 16, 2008 at 11:18 am

 avatarAwesome. Just awesome! There needs to be more stuff like this.

Other Comments by Janus

14. Comment #144586 by Colwyn Abernathy on March 16, 2008 at 11:24 am

 avatarOOO! I read this on this week's SWIFT. Glad to see it here, too!

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

15. Comment #144589 by notsobad on March 16, 2008 at 11:26 am

 avatarkaiser,
that's bullshit too.

Other Comments by notsobad

16. Comment #144591 by Skep on March 16, 2008 at 11:31 am

Sanal Edamaruku is lucky that Pandit Surinder Sharma is an "honest" black magician and didn't try and secretly poison him. Of course anyone who would agree to kill someone for live TV can't exactly be trusted, whether or not they actually have the ability to do so.

Other Comments by Skep

17. Comment #144592 by Animavore on March 16, 2008 at 11:32 am

 avatarI just can't believe the Shamen guy kept up the charade. Was he hoping that Sanal might die from old age in the mean time?

Other Comments by Animavore

18. Comment #144600 by Stublore on March 16, 2008 at 11:53 am

That is absolutely brilliant!!
Kudos to Sanal Edamaruku, and India TV for continuing to broadcast, not sure what it says about their quality of programming though :)
Can you imagine a similar program going to the lengths of India TV in the UK, Eire, or the US
"Tonights X-Factor replaced by a live feed of a shaman working his ju-ju on a non-believer, stay tuned for the shocking conclusion! Viewer discretion advised as this program may contain scenes which are harmful to your faith!!"

Other Comments by Stublore

19. Comment #144602 by Pattern Seeker on March 16, 2008 at 12:01 pm

 avatarThis reminds me of this bit I'd seen the other night from an Irish comedian by the name of Tommy Tiernan.

I'd never seen his comedy before, but his antics drew me in. I sat and watched for a few minutes when he started talking about Joel Osteen and his mega-church. He mentions the fact that Osteen looks nothing like a preacher from where he comes from, more like a businessman. He mentions that Osteen just preaches bullshit and always talks about how Jesus wants us to be happy, and on and on. Tiernan then says something about the fact that they have a name for people like Osteen in Ireland-

RETARDED

I about wet myself. Priceless.

This 'tantrik, voodoo, black magic' joker reminded me of that.
Sure, you may scare or influence the people in your immediate area or country, but go anywhere else and most people will think you're a frickin' retard.

Other Comments by Pattern Seeker

20. Comment #144603 by JamesDB on March 16, 2008 at 12:02 pm

 avatarHaha this is brilliant, it just shows that this shaman truly believed what he does works, now he has to re-think his life. Really he will keep pretending until he dies and telling people that his magic is real. How do you change this guys mind?

Other Comments by JamesDB

21. Comment #144604 by Animavore on March 16, 2008 at 12:07 pm

 avatarYeah right. Re-think his life? Have you never seen a charlatan debunked before? I'll be keeping an eye out for a follow up, check out his excuse. You can bet your pimply little ass much of his followers will just band tighter around him. Funny as this is to us, believers are rock solid in their fate.

Other Comments by Animavore

22. Comment #144606 by Animavore on March 16, 2008 at 12:08 pm

 avatarOops. I meant faith. (or did I)

Other Comments by Animavore

23. Comment #144610 by Frankus1122 on March 16, 2008 at 12:13 pm

 avatarJamesDB:
I am curious as to what the shaman actually thought as well.
I always thought that at some level these guys knew what they were doing was a scam, but now I am not so sure.

Dowsers and astrologists believe what they are doing as well I suppose.
Curious.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

24. Comment #144612 by Animavore on March 16, 2008 at 12:17 pm

 avatarHitler believed what he was doing too.

Other Comments by Animavore

25. Comment #144614 by Logicel on March 16, 2008 at 12:30 pm

 avatarNow the tantrik wrote Sanal's name on a sheet of paper, tore it into small pieces, dipped them into a pot with boiling butter oil and threw them dramatically into the flames.
______

Oh g(h)ee! Really thought that would work.

Other Comments by Logicel

26. Comment #144616 by Geoff on March 16, 2008 at 12:37 pm

 avatarLogicel: be ashamed!

Other Comments by Geoff

27. Comment #144621 by Dog Boots on March 16, 2008 at 12:51 pm

In a universe with a god, there would have been complete video of this - I have 2 hours to spare tonight, would've been great entertainment!

Other Comments by Dog Boots

28. Comment #144629 by tieInterceptor on March 16, 2008 at 1:15 pm

 avatarMola Ram!

mola

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

29. Comment #144630 by kintaro_crab on March 16, 2008 at 1:26 pm

 avatarThat is actually pretty scary. I wouldn't trust some crazy black magician with a knife. What if he went nuts and slit his throat, then went around claimed that black magic killed him?

Other Comments by kintaro_crab

30. Comment #144631 by D'Arcy on March 16, 2008 at 1:27 pm

 avatarThis shaman guy needs a few lessons from Lord Voldermort.

Oh Shit! I'm coming out in boils all over.....

Other Comments by D'Arcy

31. Comment #144633 by seanwupton on March 16, 2008 at 1:35 pm

 avatarThis article just made my day.

Other Comments by seanwupton

32. Comment #144643 by Mango on March 16, 2008 at 1:56 pm

 avatarAfter it was over Sanal could have told the TV viewers that HE has the REAL magic and that's why he survived! He could then set up shop as a guru and make himself rich.

Other Comments by Mango

33. Comment #144650 by Teratornis on March 16, 2008 at 2:08 pm

 avatarWell, eventually Sanal will die, and that will prove the power of Tantra. In the minds of all the retards who fall for it.

I have to include myself in that class, because until I overcame my charismafundagelical upbringing, I was equally afraid of becoming possessed by demons if I were to play with an Ouija board.

What really frightens me about this stuff is how real it can seem even to a guy like me who has heard all his life that he is fairly smart. The human brain is an extraordinarily odd piece of goo, capable of warping itself into all sorts of unlikely arrangements depending on what it feeds on, or has force-fed to it.

But on the bright side, I can personally attest that it's possible to work one's way out of just about any belief set, provided one hears or reads arguments that make sense, enough times. So keep spreading that word of rational doubt.

Other Comments by Teratornis

34. Comment #144652 by rod-the-farmer on March 16, 2008 at 2:10 pm

 avatarOhhh, PLEASE will someone set up something like this in N. America and the UK. (How did it get started in India ? Surely there were people opposed ? Hats off to the people of India.)

Challenge those who preach the "power of prayer" to have all their followers pray for the recovery of someone with an amputated limb. Make that challenge PUBLIC, and promote the heck out of it. Surely there are TV people who have the courage to get something like this rolling ? Invite all those loony right wing political personalities to be part of the audience - supporting the preacher who agrees to the challenge. If no one will accept it, target the right-wingers to ask why no one will answer it. Oh, be still my beating heart, just thinking of something like this. Wait, a faint voice is whispering to me.....James Randi, and Christopher Hitchens..... We need a bit of funding to get this started, like buying the TV time slot. Then advertise the heck out of it, mentioning all those megachurch preachers who were invited to be the point man for prayer. Oooohh. I am all a-quiver. I have a PayPal account, if we need a place to collect donations.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

35. Comment #144655 by Teratornis on March 16, 2008 at 2:17 pm

 avatarIn reply to cComment #144652 by rod-the-farmer:

Challenge those who preach the "power of prayer" to have all their followers pray for the recovery of someone with an amputated limb. Make that challenge PUBLIC, and promote the heck out of it. Surely there are TV people who have the courage to get something like this rolling ? Invite all those loony right wing political personalities to be part of the audience - supporting the preacher who agrees to the challenge.


Game on!

Precedent exists:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=I kings 18:17-40&version=9
1 Kings 18:17-40 (King James Version)
Elijah vs. the prophets of Baal

I listened to a wonderful vintage audio recording of some spiritualist who answered the challenge of Harry Houdini to demonstrate his ability to conjure up the dead. The spiritualist was a highly accomplished orator - he couldn't conjure the dead, but he could certainly conjure lots of emotion in the living.

We've been here before:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Houdini#Debunking_spiritualists

Other Comments by Teratornis

36. Comment #144658 by Geoff on March 16, 2008 at 2:20 pm

 avatar33. Comment #144650 by Teratornis


I was equally afraid of becoming possessed by demons if I were to play with an Ouija board.


Did you do the experiment? Can you be sure you aren't possessed?

Other Comments by Geoff

37. Comment #144668 by righton on March 16, 2008 at 2:49 pm

This was very surprising to me. I didnt know that a lot of people really believe in this stuff. It sounds like a good majority of people in India think that this black magic stuff is real.

Other Comments by righton

38. Comment #144669 by mandrellian on March 16, 2008 at 2:50 pm

Pfft. Oldest trick in the book. Sanal was just whispering "expelliarmus" under his breath the whole time, just like Hank Potter.

But at least this tantrik warlock had the balls to be tested on live TV. I'd love to see someone test that preening, silky little bastard Benny Hinn in the same manner.

Other Comments by mandrellian

39. Comment #144755 by mojicc on March 16, 2008 at 5:27 pm

Great story. I wish something like that would happen in the US.

Other Comments by mojicc

40. Comment #144770 by FightingFalcon on March 16, 2008 at 5:45 pm

 avatarI'm with Rod-the-farmer. Let's put all of our money together and offer a ridiculously huge reward for any Christian preacher who can heal someone with an amputated limb. I wanna see how that one turns out....

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

41. Comment #144776 by phasmagigas on March 16, 2008 at 5:53 pm

 avatarthe problem is that he used butter oil and wheat flour, it should have been ground quinoa oil and soy flour.

i remember doing a ouija board when i as 19 with a gang of friends, it was for a laugh, i wanted to see if anything happend, i just KNEW nothing would happen, and of course it didnt! doh.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

42. Comment #144783 by prettygoodformonkeys on March 16, 2008 at 6:12 pm

 avatarI fucking love religion!!!

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

43. Comment #144784 by Richard Morgan on March 16, 2008 at 6:12 pm

Believing in God's healing powers doesn't require asking him to grow an amputated limb back, or recycle WeeFlea's brain. Faith means that God can make you happy with the one leg you have left or a brain that isn't firing on all cylinders.
Unfortunately, neither God nor magic can make you dead - for that, it takes brute force, cunning or technology.
Or genes that are not programmed to make you live forever. Selfish little bastards aren't they?
You let them live in your body for a few years, then when you've carried them around long enough for them to make other gene-carriers, it's "So long and thanks for all the fish" or whatever.
But what I like about us rationalists is that, even if Sanal Edamaruku had actually dropped dead at some point during the experiment, like for example, in the middle of an "Om lingalingalingalinga, kilikilikili…." (once more with feeling), we cynical ol' sods would have said, "Yeah, well, it's just a fuckin' coincidence, because the guy had heart problems anyway. If it's not repeatable, it doesn't prove any-fucking-thing.
If he can do it on the entire Bolton Wanderers football team, in scientifically-controlled conditions, thern we might believe it."

And if he succeeded in doing that, we'd say, "He must have been cheating! It can't have been just the cabbalistic signs he was scrawling on his football polls coupon. Do it again, this time, with, say The Red Army Choir, or the Conservative Party."

And if he succeeded that, and so on, and so forth.
We are really a bunch of spoilsports, aren't we?
And I just love it!

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

44. Comment #144786 by prettygoodformonkeys on March 16, 2008 at 6:19 pm

 avatarWee Flea's brain is PVC Type 7; not recyclable.

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

45. Comment #144789 by Gmork on March 16, 2008 at 6:24 pm

 avatarI would also be skeptical about letting this "black mage" run around with a knife. The typical trait of religiously inclined people is dissociation. They attribute external events to something abstract to protect their ego, so they are free to go.


On the opposite side we have mediums whose primary purpose is to scam..err--is to help people reach closure by communicating with the dead (impossible by definition).

This is something that was recently brought to my attention when "Lisa Williams: Life Among the Dead" got air time in Norway. (It's on a channel that broadcasts a lot of the same superstitious drivel, effectively sustaining a normalcy for it.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_Williams

PS: Here is a clip where she talks to people:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=wf-6aHh3vcA

Even if what she does is good natured, it's still a lie.

PPS: Carry on!

Other Comments by Gmork

46. Comment #144801 by mdowe on March 16, 2008 at 6:52 pm

 avatarSanal is still a brave man -- I'm sure there are lots of subtle ways to kill somebody (poisons, etc. that are very scientific) which could be hidden is some ridiculous ceremony.

But in any case, I'm sure the tantic or his sect will claim victory when Sanal finally does expire -- even if it is years in the future and of obvious natural causes.

Other Comments by mdowe

47. Comment #144804 by Richard Morgan on March 16, 2008 at 7:01 pm

Gmork
"Lisa Williams: Life Among the Dead"
What a fuckin' coincidence. She must have the same students as I do. WTF - the same entire classes!

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

48. Comment #144809 by SPS on March 16, 2008 at 7:09 pm

At least this guy's only chanting. Other crazy beliefs have since moved on to real weapons to inflict harm.
I guess curses work out as well as moving mountains with faith.

Other Comments by SPS

49. Comment #144816 by Goldy on March 16, 2008 at 7:59 pm

 avatarRichard, I notice a large increase in the frequency of the word fuck (and it's derivatives) in your posts. Wales won the 6 nations...
Regarding your post re us rationalists requiring all of Bolton Wanderers being tantricked to death (hehehehe!) - I think that does raise an interesting point. Our mindsets are different - we see things very differently to those of faith. That's why we can never win any arguments with them and why they cannot convince us.
Be nice to be able to get around this block.

Other Comments by Goldy

50. Comment #144817 by Plan 9 on March 16, 2008 at 8:01 pm

 avatarRod-the-farmer,

I'm not sure this challenge would work. The resulting failure to regrow the limb, or the refusal to meet the challenge would be met with cries of 'You can't slot God into a TV schedule' or some other such apology on his behalf.

Would be nice to watch them squirm though.

Other Comments by Plan 9
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