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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document The death-of-god debate

by Simon Jenkins

Reposted from:
http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,2267301,00.html

Simon Jenkins replies to John Gray's challenge to Dawkins et al

How does an atheist confront Easter in the post-Dawkins age? He has, let us say, granted religion its plea for respect. He lives and lets believe, and no longer rants from the pulpit in the style of the master, calling down the fire and brimstone of rationalism on the congregation below.

Most religions are smart enough to use spring as a metaphor for reincarnation. Birds sing, eggs hatch, buds burst into life and, if you like, God is love. Only a misanthrope would deny the stirring of springtime juices and not dream of resurrection. Can atheism and religion find some accommodation at Easter?

I am comfortable with the atheist stall set out by Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, Daniel Dennett and others. I find the intellectual chase exhilarating, but as the huntsmen run the stag to earth what Dawkins calls my "cultural hard-wiring" holds me back from the coup de grace. Christianity is a core component of my civilisation, as astrology has been to others. The demise of its specific beliefs among most clear-thinking people in no way lessens my admiration for the Sermon on the Mount or my respect for its "placebo" value for millions of people.

In such a generous spirit I read last week's assault on Dawkins and Co on these pages by John Gray. It made me realise just how bad-tempered the death-of-god debate has become. Gray's contribution to moral philosophy is rightly to assert that human history is too complicated to admit glib certainties. In Black Mass, his recent attack on liberal utopias, Gray calls for "a discipline of thought that may be too austere for a culture that prizes psychological comfort above everything else". Hence his pessimistic realism, an acceptance that the world is and always will be awash in horror and superstition. Atheism, like the science on which it is based, is just another faith, another manifestation of his aversion to "catastrophic optimism".

Gray's attack on Dawkins is anything but disciplined. He constantly attacks "evangelical" atheism, "zealous" atheism and "fundamentalist" atheism without quite engaging with atheism. Indeed much of Gray's assault is on newly militant atheism's modus operandi, its shrill propagandising, rather than its content. This is Tony Blair's trick (in opposing a "naļve, outdated socialism") of using qualifiers to get inconvenient nouns off the hook.

Dawkins and Co are criticised for believing that "the sort of advance that has been achieved in science can be reproduced in ethics and politics". Gray points out that slavery has not yet been eradicated and that Nazism and communism were very bad, and many atheists "fail to mention" this fact. Even the Taliban are cited to prove that secularism is in retreat. Gray seems to regard human society as in a steady state of original sin, and thus any idea of "the advance of science is itself an article of faith".

Few would agree with Gray that humankind has not evolved - or "progressed" - from primitivism to relative civility over the aeons of life on earth. The fact that much science is bogus and has been abused by politics does not discredit the scientific method any more than it validates religion. All can play the history game.

This is just point scoring. I would leave both religion and atheism out of the evolutionary account, which Darwinism can handle on its own. But this is the essence of Dawkins's case. Gray says that religion is like sex in "the impossibility of its suppression". But I am not interested in suppression. It is perfectly reasonable to forecast that religion might be "evolved out" of human understanding, as science explains each new phenomenon pleaded in aid by religion or, at least, convinces people that such explanation might one day be possible.

The wilder shores of theology are already reductionist, dabbling in social anthropology and refining such terms as god, soul and immortality. Religion has itself evolved from blood sacrifice to the subtleties of the ontological "god". For increasing numbers of people this reductionism slithers into "agnosticism". Religion is a mental appendix, outdated but not yet extinct (and sometimes sorely inflamed).

Faith is to Gray one of the many complex ingredients in the chop suey of his cosmos, a manifestation of "the incomprehensibility of the divine". When he hears Dawkins ranting he duly lumps atheism into the same category as "an ersatz religion", in its case guilty of blind faith in the myth of progress.

I do not regard atheism as a faith, and Dawkins goes to some lengths in The God Delusion to rebut this "guilt by association". Atheism does not accept the existence of a supernatural god, but this is not an act of faith. It applies the normal tests of proof to the claims of others. Were religion merely "faith" it would indeed be incomprehensible. The trouble starts when it lays proprietary claim to normal words such as truth, goodness, beauty, virgin birth, resurrection and salvation, and redefines them to its own ends.

Words must carry agreed meanings if humans are to live happily together. Atheism need not be zealous, evangelical or fundamental. It need not even subscribe to Gray's derided belief in progress. It is sceptical in the proper sense, courteous, tolerant, questioning and deductive.

But the fact that we cannot explain everything about us - even the joys of spring - has absolutely no bearing on the existence of a god. I cannot argue with a man who "believes" the Earth to be flat. Most people regard the idea as absurd unless the word flat is redefined to mean round. I feel the same about Easter's "resurrection of the dead".

The most lively of Dawkins's critics is the former Bishop of Oxford, Richard Harries, an apostle of what Dawkins would call the "much-needed gap" explanation of God - dismissed by Dawkins as "the mother of all burkas". In his writing on aesthetics Harries claims to find God in such concepts as beauty and artistic creativity. A sign of His handiwork is humanity's eternal assault on the mountains of the sublime.

I do not need God to help me wonder. I am patient and will, if need be, await the contribution of genetics and neurology to our understanding of art. If Harries claims to have found God in Michelangelo's studio I am happy for him. But I protest that any sensitive atheist can enjoy the sights, sounds and smells of what Christians call Eastertide. He can exult at Haydn's Creation and chase the painted egg across the lawn without the prop of an organised, or disorganised, religion.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/departments/politicsphilosophyandsociety/story/0,,2265446,00.html

Comments 1 - 34 of 34 |

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1. Comment #148422 by Animavore on March 23, 2008 at 4:08 am

 avatarIt is annoying the way people call 'atheism' a faith. I fully agree with Sam Harris who thinks that we shouldn't even call ourselves atheists (I certainly don't go around talking like some parody of a Little Britain character, 'I'm the only ahteist in the village.) Other labels that annoy me too are 'Darwinist,' which in my mind is no different to being called 'Davidian,' and Neo-Darwinist, which draws parallels with Neo-Nazis. (probably the intention because it's the religious who seem to use it.) Another thing that annoys me is the 'Out Campaign,' which frankly I think, with it's advertisements showing young people wearing those horrible 'A' t-shirts, reminds me of some kind of secular version of 'BattleCry.' I've read John Grays works and I do admit enjoying them and agreeing on some points and even though I don't agree that atheism is like religion at all at all, I do think that we are guilty of doing things that make it seem that way.

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2. Comment #148444 by mandelstam on March 23, 2008 at 5:17 am

It is easter so once again religion is given it's special place. I am like most atheists happy to accept that christians celebrate this festival, and assign it any meaning they choose, and gain any comfort they can from it. However, I am not glad that on the basis of a quite absurd faith (please go to the vatican website and look up transubstantiation as an example) an individuals views on scientific questions are front page news and an important ethical & scientific debate is trivialised by his ignorant intervention. I refer to the Sunday Herald and the debate on the Human emryology bill, I'm sure the articles will appear here in due course meantime go to: http://www.sundayherald.com/news/heraldnews/display.var.2140437.0.0.php
I like Simon Jenkins article; the assumption that a religiose persons point of view is worthwhile on that basis alone needs to be challenged at all times. It needs to be restated frequently because it is not yet understood as being the main cause of the recent upsurge in "Atheist" literature. I do not wish to convert anyone to anything except reason, and to trust in the human mind, and understanding it's complexities.
Lastly, Michaelangelo always turns up for some reason. I love the pieta, but if only people would look at it, and not decide what it is about. Does it looke like the mother of a 33 year old man cradling his corpse? Does it matter that it has a religious explanation, any more than Apollo & Daphne, or any other mythology?
Oh. Rant over.

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3. Comment #148445 by JemyM on March 23, 2008 at 5:26 am

 avatarI do not know anyone who associate Easter with Christianity. Most of us associate it with eating candy and painting eggs. Ofcourse... Im Swedish.

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4. Comment #148446 by Richard Morgan on March 23, 2008 at 5:29 am

I do not need God to help me wonder. I am patient and will, if need be, await the contribution of genetics and neurology to our understanding of art.
This article is pleasant reading for a Sunday morning.
And you know what I find truly wonderful? It's the human capacity to experience wonder? And I don't even need to wonder why.
(Look, I've got my qualia, you've got yours, ok?)

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

5. Comment #148448 by Richard Morgan on March 23, 2008 at 5:31 am

Excuse me for interrupting this thread.


MUSIC UPDATE

For PZMyers : "EXPELLED : another hole in the sock."




The Myspace dedicated player :

1. We saw the comet.
In "Climbing Mount Improbable", Richard Dawkins mentioned taking his baby daughter out one night to see a comet. He explained that she was probably too young to know what was going on, but since she would live to see it again (and he would not) he wanted her to be able to say, later in her life, that she'd seen it twice. I was very touched by this idea, and so composed this piece of music for Richard and his daughter.

2. Paula Kirby : TNT Truth, not Tales.
Well, it all started with Paula KIRBY, didn't it, this "Fleabytes" business!
3. MPhil : Emfill Rox!
An amazing young philosophical mind. (I asked my son Anthony to compose this piece, being a little unwell myself at the time.)
4. Past Fleas.
RD asked this question :
What would music inspired by the fleas sound like?
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2303,Add-another-flea-to-the-list,RichardDawkinsnet

Something to make them seem ridiculous, pathetic, desperate?
This composition is my answer.

5. Cartomancer : Gunshots and a Wobbly.
I'm chronically tone-deaf to the point where I didn't know what all the fuss was about when Jemini were the UK entry to the Eurovision Song Contest. My beloved teases me mercilessly about it. I tried to come up with some praise beyond "That sounds nice", or "I liked the wobbly bit with all those notes in it" but my abilities fail me utterly when it comes to describing my appreciation of music..
But Cartomancer is one of our most remarkable contributors, and deserved an, er, shall we say, appropriate musical portrait, with recognisable sounds.

6. Steve Zara : Simply SteveZ.
Enough said. Steve has a fine mind, and is totally lovable.


Standalone player (right column)
NEW! (23/03/2008) 1. EXPELLED, another hole in the sock.
For PZ Myers

2. Sock on the Stair Reel : Bullshit!
BULLSHIT? This composition has already been banned by 18 radio stations in the USA and by most of my family.

3. Past Fleas.
4. Fleabytes : a thredley.
This is a medley of themes which expresses my impression of this everlasting thread.
5. Fingerprints, past time. (from The Lava Lizard's Tale.) (Voice : Richard Dawkins)
6. Broken Rings (from The Salamander's Tale) (Voice : Lalla Ward)
7. DIACANU.
(Mike told me himself that he felt that this portrait was pretty accurate. If you don't believe, read his comments!)
8. Bryan English : Bryan of OZ.
One of Australia's finest rock musicians.
9. Hitchindebate.
I composed a spontaneous impression of Christopher Hitches in debate with, well, just about anybody really.
10. The Quote Miner's lament.
11. Weeflea's always right.
Guess who this is?
12. Call me "Richard".
And guess who this is?




Standalone player (left column)
Sound track : Fingerprints, past time. (without the voice)



http://www.myspace.com/fleabytes

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

6. Comment #148451 by keith on March 23, 2008 at 5:50 am

 avatar
And you know what I find truly wonderful? It's the human capacity to experience wonder.

Ye Gods, I think I'm going to be sick.

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7. Comment #148454 by Geoff on March 23, 2008 at 6:06 am

 avatarI like the analogy of religion as the appendix:

"Religion is a mental appendix, outdated but not yet extinct (and sometimes sorely inflamed)."

Quite.

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8. Comment #148463 by HitbLade on March 23, 2008 at 6:25 am

Ahhh, it's good being Swedish, amirite JemyM?

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9. Comment #148465 by Logicel on March 23, 2008 at 6:26 am

 avatarReligion is a mental appendix, outdated but not yet extinct (and sometimes sorely inflamed).
_____

Wonderful line.

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10. Comment #148469 by lievemebe on March 23, 2008 at 6:41 am

Most religions are smart enough to use spring as a metaphor for reincarnation. Birds sing, eggs hatch, buds burst into life and, if you like, God is love. Only a misanthrope would deny the stirring of springtime juices and not dream of resurrection.

I cannot argue with a man who "believes" the Earth to be flat.


Soemhow, the two quotes seem to go together. I often wonder whether Christianity is strictly a Northern Hemisphere religion.

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11. Comment #148486 by Corylus on March 23, 2008 at 7:40 am

 avatar
Gray's attack on Dawkins is anything but disciplined....This is Tony Blair's trick (in opposing a "naive, outdated socialism") of using qualifiers to get inconvenient nouns off the hook.
That is the smartest thing I have read this weekend.

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12. Comment #148499 by Pattern Seeker on March 23, 2008 at 8:09 am

 avatarActually I ripped it off from the Pagans. Thanks.

Your Pal In Heaven,

Jesus Bunny

'Happy Beaster!'

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13. Comment #148519 by babrock on March 23, 2008 at 8:45 am

Who is this John Grey and what debate is this artical refering to?

Whenever I ask a similar question Iam generaly directed to google it. In this case tho, google indicated that he is t author of t Mars/Venus books. This is off topic but t wife and I found t ideas in that book rather usefull in their own small ways.

Could someone please provide a link to t corect John Grey and whatever debate/argument/contraversy is being refered to in this artical.

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14. Comment #148523 by Mark Smith on March 23, 2008 at 8:49 am

babrock
try again with an a in Gray not an e. He is the one at the top of the resulting listing: John N Gray, British philosopher

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15. Comment #148541 by Madmaili on March 23, 2008 at 9:20 am

 avatar"Harries claims to find God in such concepts as beauty and artistic creativity. A sign of His handiwork is humanity's eternal assault on the mountains of the sublime."
He forgot to mention god exists in many other places he can be found in the neatness of a perfectly rolled joint or in the bubbles of an imported beer. God is on the table top when you flop a straight and on nice cup of warm apple cider and spicy rum .

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16. Comment #148576 by Tycho the Dog on March 23, 2008 at 10:27 am

 avatarMadmaili

"Harries claims to find God in such concepts as beauty and artistic creativity. A sign of His handiwork is humanity's eternal assault on the mountains of the sublime."
And of course in cancerous tumours, and degenerative nervous diseases, and parasites, and malarial mosquitos, and the lacerated face of someone who's been attacked with a broken bottle. Ah sweet wonder of God.

An interesting and thoughtful article. On the meaning of Easter though, I find the Christian take perverse in its substitution of male resurrection for female reproductivity. About as twisted as the idea of a man (Adam) giving birth to a female (Eve). Since when has that ever happened?

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17. Comment #148589 by Satanburiedfossils on March 23, 2008 at 11:05 am

 avatarTo paraphrase a blogger (sorry, I lost the link):

"Atheism is a form of religion like being healthy is a form of disease."

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18. Comment #148593 by Richard Morgan on March 23, 2008 at 11:12 am

Keith
Ye Gods, I think I'm going to be sick.
I'm sorry about that. Please forgive me. Since I've turned 60 I often have that effect on girls. It's a little worrying....
Ah, getting old.....

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19. Comment #148612 by suffolkthinker on March 23, 2008 at 11:57 am

The author describes himself as a "Marxist". That alone is enough to show people he can read something and not understand a word of what is written.

If you do read Marx it is laughable - full of ridiculously detailed mathematical calculations based on the flimsiest of assumptions and even flimsier logic. He arrives at "scientific" conclusions without any scientific method just political polemic disguised by cod science. It would be laughable were it not that millions of people have died in its name.

Rather like religion really.

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20. Comment #148625 by mjwemdee on March 23, 2008 at 12:32 pm

 avatarA beautifully-written thought-provoking article.
Were religion merely "faith" it would indeed be incomprehensible. The trouble starts when it lays proprietary claim to normal words such as truth, goodness, beauty, virgin birth, resurrection and salvation, and redefines them to its own ends.

Words must carry agreed meanings if humans are to live happily together. [...] I cannot argue with a man who "believes" the Earth to be flat. Most people regard the idea as absurd unless the word flat is redefined to mean round. I feel the same about Easter's "resurrection of the dead".
I finally 'came out' to my born-again Christian sister just recently and have just got around to the whole business of semantics. We are looking forward to a lively (and no doubt ultimately ineffectual) debate about our different outlooks, but I've already seen how her use of language is slippery to say the least.

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21. Comment #148629 by mikejswalker on March 23, 2008 at 12:42 pm

Keith,
you missed the question mark at the end of Richards wonder?

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22. Comment #148665 by ImagineAll on March 23, 2008 at 2:56 pm

Last night, I went over to a friends' house. We painted easter eggs and ate chocolate.

This morning, I went to Easter Brunch, and my father and I (in an attempt to cling to childhood) put on our own little easter egg hunt. We exchanged gifts. I now have chocolate.

I am an atheist. And y'know what? I love Easter.

I don't need religion to celebrate spring, though I do thank whoever came up with chocolate bunnies.

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23. Comment #148730 by Mitchell Gilks on March 23, 2008 at 5:05 pm

 avatarThis was a pretty good artical. I thought it was well written.

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24. Comment #148748 by corruptmemory on March 23, 2008 at 7:32 pm

Nice article.

With regard to taking part in Easter, or any other kind of religious "holiday" activity, of course any atheist can do so, but is there a reason to have some concern over this? The answer is "probably not: we atheists live in a world of theists and there will be all sorts of 'harmless' engagement." If this is the answer, I would agree, mostly.

The reason for bringing up the "appropriateness" question is related to a recent experience: colleagues at work asked about what would happen to holidays should atheism spread and flourish? It seems to me that retaining things like "Christmas", "Easter", "Ramadan", "Yom Kipper", "Diwali", etc. for "tradition's sake" doesn't seem like it would be "in the cards". Between now (the age of un-reason) and that future vision (a new age of reason), part of engaging the theist world will be to take part in theist holiday activities, but what would happen to the notion of "holy days" if atheists succeed in awakening the minds to the people of the world?

Many secular holidays are of nationalistic origin, and nationalism shares many of the same reason-stripping effects of religion. I would tend to think that the typical atheist has at least *some* concern about nationalistic behavior (I may be alone in this, but I doubt that), so holidays inspired from nationalism, while useful in creating holidays, need to be considered temporary solutions.

Other secular holidays are inspired by some particularly interesting person such as Martin Luther King Jr. in the US. Could we see an expansion of this? In response to the challenge from my colleagues, I joked about Tesla day, and Darwin day, and Turing day, etc. Each with activities that would be related to the individual's contribution. I don't know about this idea either.

Thoughts welcome.

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25. Comment #148785 by robotaholic on March 23, 2008 at 11:09 pm

 avatarI would prefer we had a holiday fostering awareness of endangered animals or like world-wide lasagna day...or mabye endangered animal/lasagna day- or solar panel day- or mabye just a chocolate day would be nice-

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26. Comment #148791 by flyingfsck on March 23, 2008 at 11:50 pm

"or mabye just a chocolate day would be nice-"

I thought that is what Easter is all about: Chocolate bunnies and eggs - yummy!

It is very appropriate to have a whole long weekend dedicated to chocolate.

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27. Comment #148796 by mmurray on March 24, 2008 at 12:14 am

 avatarThe John Gray article he refers to is here

http://richarddawkins.net/article,2361,The-atheist-delusion,Guardian

The demise of its specific beliefs among most clear-thinking people in no way lessens my admiration for the Sermon on the Mount


What exactly is admirable about the sermon on the mount ? Unless you are a cheesemaker maybe ?

Michael

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28. Comment #148937 by God of Eng's World on March 24, 2008 at 5:12 pm

 avatarThe idea that the appendix is outdated - is outdated.

Other than that a pretty good article.

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29. Comment #148944 by Lucas on March 24, 2008 at 5:41 pm

 avatarWhat's not to love about a holiday celebrating the Zombie Jesus? I mean, it's such a beautiful image, all the folks hanging around the cave, hearing a muffled "Unnnghhh!!!" rolling back the rock, only to face a swarm of flies and a brain-hungry messiah. No wonder Magdalene had to swiftly get him and the kids on a boat to France. He was trying to eat everybody!

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30. Comment #148950 by secondsoprano on March 24, 2008 at 6:10 pm

Most religions are smart enough to use spring as a metaphor for reincarnation. Birds sing, eggs hatch, buds burst into life and, if you like, God is love. Only a misanthrope would deny the stirring of springtime juices and not dream of resurrection. Can atheism and religion find some accommodation at Easter?


Here in the southern hemisphere the whole new life, birds, buds stuff is even sillier (don't get me started on the fake snow at Christmas and Santa Claus in full fur regalia in the middle of summer).

It's autumn. D'oh. Easter is the start of the footy season.

abc.net.au (Australian national broadcaster) ran a poll on "What does Easter mean to you?"

Results (out of 3244 votes)

A holy Christian time with profound meaning.
37%
A holiday with comforting religious overtones. 14%
An outdated festival that doesn't warrant time off. 6%
A welcome break that doesn't reflect my own beliefs or culture . 36%
A chance to binge on chocolate. 3%
The start of the footy season. 4%

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31. Comment #148961 by DasSquid on March 24, 2008 at 7:00 pm

 avatar
Most religions are smart enough to use spring as a metaphor for reincarnation. Birds sing, eggs hatch, buds burst into life and, if you like, God is love. Only a misanthrope would deny the stirring of springtime juices and not dream of resurrection. Can atheism and religion find some accommodation at Easter?


Bloody egotistical tripe.

You forget about the other half of the world? or are you so far jammed up your own arse to care?

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32. Comment #148962 by Ed-words on March 24, 2008 at 7:01 pm

(Easter pun)


Our Lord is Reason!






R

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33. Comment #148984 by dragonfirematrix on March 24, 2008 at 8:37 pm

Right out the gate…there is no Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, Tooth Fairy, god, or devil.

If today I ran around saying that I saw a dead man, (lets say Ronald Reagan to stir the vengeance of the religious right), come to life, but all I had was my word and no empirical evidence, what kind of reception would I get?

1) Area 51 is hiding something.
2) Faith Healers have cured all human deceases.
3) The Earth was created in five days, not six.
4) I saw George Bush walking on water today.
5) Jesus has just fed all the staring children in Africa. There is no more hunger.
6) We should pray for the war that ends the Earth. The Christian god will save us.
7) Give me $1,000 dollars and the Christian god will cure your amputation.

I think we know what kind of reception I would get, if I told drunken stories like these. Even the religious would call me a loon.

That said...

Just like there is no Santa Claus or Easter Bunny, "He is risen" is just more mind degenerating BS for the unsuspecting children of America (and elsewhere).

Why do we, as a claimed intelligent educated nation, permit the religious to commit such blatant acts of fraud and out-right dishonesty against society without putting them away to punishment?

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34. Comment #149312 by dogg724 on March 25, 2008 at 12:50 pm

This was very well written and gave concise and simple answers to the overplayed cards from the other side. Well done.

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