Friday, March 28, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

'We Make Our Own Heaven'

by ABC News

Thanks to SPS for the link.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Nightline/FaithMatters/story?id=4539323&page=1

'We Make Our Own Heaven'
Atheist Minority Finds Spiritual Home in Palo Alto
By JOHN DONVAN and STEVEN BAKER

It is hard not to notice the bells that ring on Sunday morning. But at churches, synagogues and mosques around the globe there are some for whom that religion is lost. This group is part of America's atheist minority.

While Christians, Muslims and American Jews can celebrate their beliefs, and fellowship in the company of others in churches, mosques and synagogues, where can non-believers find a spiritual home?

Watch this story tonight on Nightline at 11:35pm ET

The answer lies in Palo Alto, Calif., if you spot the sign by the roadside. It's at the Humanist Community, where for a few hours every Sunday the humanists, as they call themselves, come together in what one might call a congregation. It even has its own Sunday school.

Without bells or whistles, but with music, this group of humanists believe in a lot of things – but God isn't one of them.

Eight-year-old: "I Like To Think Freely…

They get together and, with lectures for the older congregants and stories and games for the littler ones, discuss not their faith, but the opposite of faith -- the idea that truth arises from reason, from science, from free thought.

"I like to think freely, but still I can really think freely whenever I want 'cause I think thinking freely is good," said eight-year-old Jane Kovak, one of the humanists' younger congregants. Jane's parents, John and Kimberly teach in the community.

"I don't believe there is a God," Jane continues, "but there is a possibility that there can be. I don't really think there is."

When Time magazine wrote up their version of the Humanist Center and called it Atheist Sunday School, some at the center took issue at the description, because humanism, they say, is so much more than atheism.

The Atheist Named Bishop

Peter Bishop is the group's intellectual guide. "People are the force for good in the world and so I believe in people that their goodness will create the goodness that we have in the world," he says.

Bishop is an MIT graduate and works now as a software writer in Silicon Valley. His parents encouraged the idea of free thought during his childhood.

What's interesting about this non-church is some of its churchlike aspects. There's a hymn book, talks that sound like homilies and, at one point, an actual collection plate passed through the aisles after one song.

And of course, there's the atheist named Bishop. The manner in which he teaches is similar to how some fired-up preachers also talk. But if he's not preaching faith and he has a Sunday school, what is Bishop teaching?

"Community," he said, "a sense of community, that they get to know other kids… It's a place where, I don't know, Jane, what do you think?"

"It's cool 'cause you can, like, think freely by yourself," she said.

Too Young to Not Believe?

Some outside the church might take issue with the humanist teachings being taught to a young person like Jane.

One congregant disagrees. "I do believe that this is important to start when they are very, very young," said Beverly Crowell, a member of the congregation. "Because our culture, especially now, is so permeated with religion views, and so in order to counteract that with children that are malleable and very impressive or impressionable, it's good to get them early and teach them that they can be individuals on their own."

But if people want to believe in God, why not?

"Oh absolutely, if they get comfort for that, I have more power to them, I think that's wonderful, I don't get anything from that," said Crowell. "The way they do, I'm not impressed. I believe we make our own heaven right here, or hell, and I said, I'm going to come back in an afterlife as a leaf on a tree."

Religious Decision up to Humanist

As for Jane, her parents believe that her religious beliefs, or lack thereof, should be up to her.

"They have had many discussions about this, and we've had our discussions too," said her mother. "I think that we just give our view, I always tell Jane that she has to make up her own mind, she has to experience her experiences -- figure it out for herself."

And Jane is doing just that -- trying to figure out for herself the answers to life's difficult questions, like what happens when people die. "Well, usually you kind of go in the earth, but I don't believe that heaven's not really real," she says. "It would be cool if it was real. But there is a possibility that it is real, but I don't think so. "

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1. Comment #151349 by Janus on March 28, 2008 at 2:34 pm

Just kill me now. The article makes it sound like a freaking cult.

Other Comments by Janus

2. Comment #151351 by AmericanGodless on March 28, 2008 at 2:35 pm

Too Young to Not Believe? -- Some outside the church might take issue with the humanist teachings being taught to a young person like Jane.

Is it possible that this could have been read on the air on ABC news without the irony being so strong as to incite laughter even from the reporter? Are Christians really this obtuse and ignorant? Alas, they most likely are. I can just hear them muttering.. 'How dare those Humanists teach a mere child that she is allowed to think for herself!!??'

Other Comments by AmericanGodless

3. Comment #151352 by fides_et_ratio on March 28, 2008 at 2:36 pm

Good to hear that young Jane's thinking freely. What does that mean though?

Other Comments by fides_et_ratio

4. Comment #151353 by VanYoungman on March 28, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Wouldn't it be nice if this were to catch on all over the country?

Other Comments by VanYoungman

5. Comment #151354 by robotaholic on March 28, 2008 at 2:39 pm

I have nothing bad to say about this. I like how they don't force these kids...

It is so not the norm though that it seems strange-

Other Comments by robotaholic

6. Comment #151357 by Serdan on March 28, 2008 at 2:43 pm

"I like to think freely, but still I can really think freely whenever I want 'cause I think thinking freely is good,"

The Redundancy Department of Redundancy should do something about that. ^_^

Kids are awesome.

Other Comments by Serdan

7. Comment #151358 by Animavore on March 28, 2008 at 2:43 pm

Is theaching a child to be an atheist child abuse?

The question is firmly tongue in cheek.
I personally agree with Daniel Dennets proposition about teaching children *the facts* about all the worlds religions ie history, teachings etc... although i do admit it'll be hard to not let my own views enter the subject.

I still don't know what to do about the 'Santa' question.

Other Comments by Animavore

8. Comment #151362 by Serdan on March 28, 2008 at 2:49 pm

I still don't know what to do about the 'Santa' question.

Don't lie to the children in the first place?

Other Comments by Serdan

9. Comment #151363 by dloubet on March 28, 2008 at 2:49 pm

I would imagine that thinking freely means there are no ideas that are not allowed.

Children are born atheist, you have to teach them to be theist.

And what's with the stilted redundancy?

"People are the force for good in the world and so I believe in people that their goodness will create the goodness that we have in the world,"

WTF?

Other Comments by dloubet

10. Comment #151364 by Frankus1122 on March 28, 2008 at 2:53 pm

I personally agree with Daniel Dennets proposition about teaching children *the facts* about all the worlds religions ie history, teachings etc...

Perhaps this should be the focus of any new "Humanist" church.
Here is what the Roman Catholics believe...Next week we will have a guest speaker talk to us about Islam followed by a group discussion.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

11. Comment #151365 by Prankster on March 28, 2008 at 2:53 pm

Happy-clappy humanist/atheists......life just gets stranger don't it folks?

Scary thought is the way it's reported it's almost making it sound like a cult.

Other Comments by Prankster

12. Comment #151370 by fides_et_ratio on March 28, 2008 at 2:58 pm

I would imagine that thinking freely means there are no ideas that are not allowed.

If you think thinking is just about ideas then I think you're already on the wrong path.

Having said that, which ideas to you introduce, in which order and which do you reinforce (by weekly meetings for example) to encourage 'free-thinkin'.

Other Comments by fides_et_ratio

13. Comment #151376 by Lucas on March 28, 2008 at 3:14 pm

This is beautiful. I was raised this way as well, but not so deliberately. I do specifically remember my father telling me (after I told him I was pretty sure God didn't exist at the age of 12) that I would have to make the decision on my own once I felt I had enough information, but that I should wait until I was older. He was right, and so was I. I guess I took his advice pretty seriously given I eventually got my degrees in religion.

My mother is a primary school teacher and I've been advising her for years on how to provide the kids with a rounded education on world religion. She teaches at a Montessori school, so while initially a Catholic based organization, she has great freedom in what and how she teaches. She's taken no flack from her bosses, but guess what! Yep, some midwest parents aren't too keen on their kids being taught Buddhism is as valid as Christianity. She basically tells them where to stick it and continues on. There are 12-yr-olds in her class who know more about human evolution than I do.

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14. Comment #151378 by Sally Luxmoore on March 28, 2008 at 3:24 pm

where can non-believers find a spiritual home?

Oh dear. They just don't get it, do they?

Spirit? No such thing. Therefore no such need.

This all reminds me of what Richard says when he talks of the impossibility (and undesirability?) of herding cats. Why should people get together to talk about what they DON'T believe? I don't want to spend my time talking about not believing in fairies, or not believing in tree spirits, or Thor, etc.

Just because people don't believe in something doesn't really mean they have anything much in common - apart of course from superior intelligence!

This seems a peculiarly 'religious' thing to say. These people can't escape from a completely church-centred lifestyle.
Some of us have just got better things to do with our lives - like spending hours on this site, for example!

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

15. Comment #151382 by Steve Zara on March 28, 2008 at 3:33 pm

Comment #151370 by fides_et_ratio

Having said that, which ideas to you introduce, in which order and which do you reinforce (by weekly meetings for example) to encourage 'free-thinkin'.

Critical thinking. How to avoid being gullible.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

16. Comment #151387 by delta2echo on March 28, 2008 at 3:37 pm

This artical disgusts me because it makes the girl sound brainwashed!
"I like to think freely, but still I can really think freely whenever I want 'cause I think thinking freely is good,"
WTF! Why the fuck would they interview an 8year old what did they expect. grrrr...

Other Comments by delta2echo

17. Comment #151390 by RSP on March 28, 2008 at 3:48 pm

To Luxmoore, in my opinion "spiritual" doesn't have to mean a religious "spirit" or soul. It is the same way morality is inherently human, but has been practically usurped by religious connotation. The same goes for the human spirit. Indescribable feelings of inspiritation when you listen to music, or observe a gleaming skyscraper, or solve an incredibly hard problem are all things I'd ascribe to the human spirit.

That having been said this sounds kind of silly. It sounds like a poor pseudo emulation of a church just to save face. But I guess if they want to, feel free. I don't want to spend my Sundays at a church or there.

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18. Comment #151396 by Partisan on March 28, 2008 at 3:58 pm

This sounds a little whacky to me, I mean, "free thinking"...what is that? Discussions on ideologies and how they shape our decisions, of which religion is one such ideology? If so it's more like a Social Theory lecture, but I doubt that's what's going on here as it'd be way over the kid's heads.

Then there's the apparent parody between being a "free-thinker" yet having to meet up in church style groups. I'd rather the kids focused on being kids than worry about how they should be thinking, "free" or otherwise, and let their Humanism develop naturally...or not, if that's the case and they want to be Theists. I don't understand this social club framework, it could just be the author's wording, but as Christopher Hitchen's says it's an Atheist strength that we don't have to meet up every week and remind ourselves why we think what we do; I'd hope most of us are more intelligent than that.

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19. Comment #151401 by Sally Luxmoore on March 28, 2008 at 4:09 pm

RSP.

I understand what you're saying, but personally I just never use the word spirit, partly because I don't like its religious connotations and partly because I am more of a materialist than that.

I feel all those same emotions, but I am happy to ascribe them to thought, emotion, or imagination. To me the word spirit implies something living almost independently outside or even beyond the body. That confuses the issue.

Essentially it's only a word. It's just one I wish atheists didn't use!

Other Comments by Sally Luxmoore

20. Comment #151403 by fides_et_ratio on March 28, 2008 at 4:13 pm

Critical Thinking

Our local Catholic schools teach this at A level. In fact it's compulsory for high achieving students.

I like to think freely, but still I can really think freely whenever I want 'cause I think thinking freely is good

Sounds like someone with influence is telling this girl that she's thinking freely, and that thinking freely is good. Can you really think freely if you're told to and can you really think it's good if you're told to think it's good?

Other Comments by fides_et_ratio

21. Comment #151406 by Steve Zara on March 28, 2008 at 4:35 pm

Comment #151403 by fides_et_ratio

You have to do this early, otherwise bits of the brain could already be hijacked.

Sounds like someone with influence is telling this girl that she's thinking freely, and that thinking freely is good. Can you really think freely if you're told to and can you really think it's good if you're told to think it's good?

Try this analogy:

Sounds like someone with influence is telling this girl that she has a good diet, and that a good diet is good. Can you really eat healthily if you are told you should?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

22. Comment #151414 by RobDinsmore on March 28, 2008 at 4:49 pm

Children are born atheist, you have to teach them to be theist.

This isn't strictly true. Although children don't pop out of the womb and immediately thank Jesus, they do tend to attribute intent to almost all happenings. Ie someone made the wind blow, etc. Now this is just normal developmental psychology but it more closely reduces to theism than atheism.

Fortunately most people on this site grew up and dropped their childish ways of looking at things.

Other Comments by RobDinsmore

23. Comment #151415 by Nails on March 28, 2008 at 4:49 pm

I don't really like the idea of this, it could be as bad as religious indoctrination in my opinion.

My three-year old attends a Nursery pre-school attatched to our local church (in the church hall in fact) but they have never once sung a hymn or spoken of religion.

My daughter knows nothing of prayer, or god, or jesus. She does know Santa and Easter Bunny though!!!

The subject will not be addressed until she is either old enough to make a decision or asks about it. I will not burden her with any need for a decision or opinion I will let her enjoy her childhood - even if it involves fairies and suchlike.

But she has learned a lot about the natural world, and I intend to keep that going throughout her life.

To contrast, my 11-year old has started asking and she knows where I stand on the god question. But I know that she and her older brother know an awful lot more about evolution than their peers, thanks in part to RD's great DVD I bought last year (Waking Up In The Universe).

Kids think freely anyway, so let them be kids.

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24. Comment #151420 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 4:56 pm

Nail

Kids think freely anyway, so let them be kids.

Beautifully stated.

I always find the idea to "teach" critical thinking in the regimented, factory school setting ridiculous. This is especially true with the British system where students will just be burdened by another fucking exam. It will go a long way to encourage critical thinking if the schools are not so obsessed with evaluation, exams and grades, allow students to make mistakes, encourage them to ask questions instead of just force feeding them answers,

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25. Comment #151422 by Steve Zara on March 28, 2008 at 5:00 pm

Comment #151420 by Bonzai

I always find the idea to "teach" critical thinking in the regimented school setting ridiculous.

< irony > Sure, because we don't want children to be able to judge things for themselves and understand how to judge, do we < /irony >

Teaching critical thinking is an important part of the National Curriculum in the UK. Good thing too, because kids may start off thinking freely, but soon find pressure from parents and peer groups.

It will go a long way to encourage critical thinking if the schools are not so obsessed with evaluation, exams and grades, allow students to make mistakes, encourage them to ask questions instead of just force feeding them answers,

Sorry, but I just don't recognise this as the way teaching is done in the UK (I have friends who are teachers).

Other Comments by Steve Zara

26. Comment #151423 by Corylus on March 28, 2008 at 5:02 pm

I suspect that this might just be biased reporting from Christians not being able to move outside their frame of reference, but this does sound pretty mawkish.

What's interesting about this non-church is some of its churchlike aspects. There's a hymn book, talks that sound like homilies and, at one point, an actual collection plate passed through the aisles after one song.

One tangible plus point for atheism is a lie in on a Sunday and no group conformity forcing you to give cash away to others without reason. Sorry, stuff that.

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27. Comment #151424 by Logicel on March 28, 2008 at 5:03 pm

Since fides et ratio, the sucker that he/she is, has swallowed the below nonsense hook, line, and sinker, I doubt that he/she would recognize critical thinking if it bit him/her in the arse:

...therefore, a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father wants you to telepathically acknowledge him as your master so that he can remove an evil force from your soul that was put there when a talking snake convinced a rib-woman to eat the fruit of a magical tree.

However, perhaps it would be wise to give him/her the benefit of doubt, and it could be this mandatory course in critical thinking that explains the throngs of folks leaving Catholicism (though I would think the long standing and until recently condoned child abuse by Catholic priests may have something to do with this mass (ha!) exodus.

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28. Comment #151427 by Hobbit on March 28, 2008 at 5:08 pm

What a crap article. It comes across as a condescending religious "look at the atheists playing church".

fides_et_ratio I notice that you your fellow faith heads have been deafening in your silence over at the thread re the parents that prayed instead of taking the daughter to a doctor and watch her die from a treatable illness because they believed god would heal her if they had enough faith.

This is what a lack of critical thinking, free thought and belief in magical sky fairies leads to.

I look forward to reading your thoughts over on that thread and how you rationalise this lunacy!

Other Comments by Hobbit

29. Comment #151428 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 5:09 pm

Teaching critical thinking is an important part of the National Curriculum in the UK. Good thing too, because kids may start off thinking freely, but soon find pressure from parents and peer groups.

It is like asking people to study from a manual to learn to be spontaneous.

Critical thinking skill cannot be "taught", it has to be nurtured.

You don't have a nurturing environment when "education" as a whole is like a fucking factory which follows charts and plans at every turn. Pupils are fed enough facts and answers so that they can write exams and get penalized if they don't meet some artificial standard. It is like quality control.

Answers are meaningless if you don't even care for or know the questions.

What is the point of "teaching" students to be independent thinkers while the message of the system is TO CONFORM?

Let kids be kids.

Other Comments by Bonzai

30. Comment #151429 by Greybishop on March 28, 2008 at 5:11 pm

I guess this is fine for those that seek "community" with a larger group of people who think along similar lines. There are elements that concern me though. Particularly the fact that it's so easy to make this sound like church sans crucifix.

It seems like these folks need something to replace thinking about god on Sunday.

Personally, instead of thinking up ways to not think about god, I'd rather be doing something real, like watching a baseball game or reading a book.

For this non-believer it sounds hellish. I can't imagine giving up part of my one half day off per week to sit around and listen to lectures on how to think freely and be a better atheist.

Perhaps I'm too much of a loner, but the way whole idea mimics a traditional church just comes off like the grass roots of a new "science and reason" cult.

And what the hell kind of hymns are in a humanist hymn book anyhow?

"Nearer I am to...um...the guy next to me."?

"That old rugged microscope"

"What a friend I have in...my neighbourhood"?

"Tis so sweet to trust in reality"?

(Thank you google! Amazing Grace is about the only hymn I know by name.)

Thanks, but no thanks. I need no weekly group reinforcement of what science shows me to be dead obvious.

On the upside, there's little chance that eight year old will grow up to blow anything up. She'll be too busy freely thinking about how freely she's freely thinking...

Other Comments by Greybishop

31. Comment #151432 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 5:15 pm

Having or not having religious belief is not a good yard stick to measure critical thinking skills and independent thinking.

There are highly original and critical thinkers who are religious and I have met enough atheists who are unreflective, unquestioning and just simply dull people.

Other Comments by Bonzai

32. Comment #151435 by Saerain on March 28, 2008 at 5:30 pm

23. Comment #151415 by Nails on March 28, 2008 at 4:49 pm

Kids think freely anyway, so let them be kids.

And how!

Although however redundant, I do fail to see it as negative.

Other Comments by Saerain

33. Comment #151436 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 5:36 pm

Eight-year-old: "I Like To Think Freelyâ€¦

Somehow I feel sick reading this. An eight year old who thinks freely would just do this instinctively. She wouldn't say, " I am a free thinker".

And what is with the "discuss not their faith, but the opposite of faith -- the idea that truth arises from reason, from science, from free thought." For eight years old?!

These kids all sound like tiny adults. Sorry, this sounds definitely like indoctrination. Not only do they copy all the Church trappings, they actually fashion themselves after some Puritan cult by the look of it.

Other Comments by Bonzai

34. Comment #151440 by Podaar on March 28, 2008 at 5:38 pm

Leave it to southern California to invent sunday-hippie-free-thinkers! I am so reminded of Frank Zappa, "All what we got here is a American made. It's a little bit cheezy but it's nicely displayed."

--Gregg

Other Comments by Podaar

35. Comment #151441 by Podaar on March 28, 2008 at 5:48 pm

Comment #151433 by Richard Morgan

You can interview an eight year-old girl from a Mormon family, and she will dutifully recite, "I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I know that the ChurchofJesusChristofLatterdaySaints is the true Church."

Richard, you've probably been away for a while. The children have been taught to add, "I know that Mitt Romney is the one-true-president of the United States." to the litany you describe.

-- Gregg

Other Comments by Podaar

36. Comment #151443 by Gordy on March 28, 2008 at 5:53 pm

I find this report disturbing (just as the writer clearly intended me to). If an 8 year old really said all that, it's almost certainly because she's repeating what a trusted adult has told her. She probably doesn't fully understand what she's saying. She's too young to. To that extent, this is no better than religious indoctrination. It's no use trying to defend it by saying "Well, at least they're being indoctrinated with the truth." Every religious group believes that too.

Nails: "Kids think freely anyway, so let them be kids."

Quite. They are no more atheist kids or humanist kids than they are Christian kids, Muslim kids or post-modernist kids. Let them just be kids.

Other Comments by Gordy

37. Comment #151444 by Podaar on March 28, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Nails: "Kids think freely anyway, so let them be kids."

I'm a life-long atheist. The little girl in my arms (see avatar) is my 4 year old granddaughter Tessa--she's a free thinker, and yet no one (to my knowledge) has ever told her she is.

Other Comments by Podaar

38. Comment #151445 by mmurray on March 28, 2008 at 5:57 pm

I guess this might be useful for someone who is at a loss for something to do on a Sunday after leaving an organised religion or is still transitioning and has things they want to talk about but personally I can't see the point. My Sunday consists of sleep in, youngest son's swimming lesson, weekly grocery shopping, odd jobs around the house, cook dinner, wash up, put rubbish out and go to bed. It's not like being an atheist leaves me at a loss for anything to do on Sunday (now that we have beaten the christians on shopping hours :-) )

My reaction to this is the same as to carob based `chocolate' - why bother ?

Maybe we could build atheist temples and have atheist sacrifices where were we sacrifice plastic chickens to non-existent gods. This could be followed by a round of that old favourite atheist hymn:

`We like to think freely, we like to think freely, we like to think freely ... "

Only in California.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

39. Comment #151447 by Steve Zara on March 28, 2008 at 6:01 pm

Bonzai-

Critical thinking skill cannot be "taught", it has to be nurtured.

Is this an argument from experience of being an educator, or is it an argument from personal incredulity?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

40. Comment #151449 by Steve Zara on March 28, 2008 at 6:07 pm

Having or not having religious belief is not a good yard stick to measure critical thinking skills and independent thinking.

There are highly original and critical thinkers who are religious and I have met enough atheists who are unreflective, unquestioning and just simply dull people.

This goes against all the evidence that there is a trend of less religiousness with increasing education.

Just because things aren't 100% correlated does not mean there isn't a definite trend.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

41. Comment #151450 by Szymanowski on March 28, 2008 at 6:10 pm

Hmm... an institution, in which people are taught to think freely by an 'intellectual guide'...

We have those in the UK too. They're called SCHOOLS!

(though perhaps this "free thinking" doesn't apply in US education *cough* Pledge *cough* :) )

Other Comments by Szymanowski

42. Comment #151451 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 6:10 pm

Steve,

Is this an argument from experience of being an educator, or is it an argument from personal incredulity?

As some one who has been a child, perhaps you have forgotten about that.

Other Comments by Bonzai

43. Comment #151453 by Steve Zara on March 28, 2008 at 6:16 pm

Comment #151451 by Bonzai

As some one who has been a child, perhaps you have forgotten about that.

I do remember being a child, and I remember a particular teacher, indeed a particular lesson that had a dramatic impact on me. When I was a young teenager an English teacher showed us a documentary that turned out to be an advert. We were introduced to the idea of being suspicious of things presented in easy soundbites, and of carefully packaged views. We were taught to think critically.

I certainly don't approve of children of 8 being dealt with in this way, but as we get older such guidance can be very helpful, and, indeed, in the UK, is considered a vital part of preparing people for adult life.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

44. Comment #151455 by Dr Benway on March 28, 2008 at 6:18 pm

There's a hymn book, talks that sound like homilies...

Do normal people use the word "homilies"? Or just practicing Catholics?

I can understand humanist/atheist/skeptic gatherings for a variety of reasons. But it's hard to imagine attending a weekly service as described above. What's the content?

I'd go birdwatching. I'd enjoy learning about things people are doing in my community. I'd like to see displays of local artwork. I dunno. Stuff.

Atheism by itself has no stuff.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

45. Comment #151459 by Dr Benway on March 28, 2008 at 6:27 pm

I had one really great high school teacher. In his class, we covered basic logic, logical fallacies, rhetoric, and a little psycholinguistics. We would bring in adverts from magazines, news articles, and examples of things on TV, illustrating tricks of persuasion. It was a lot of fun.

Very few kids seem to get a class like this in the US.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

46. Comment #151462 by Richard Morgan on March 28, 2008 at 6:35 pm

This kind of "teaching critical thinking" has been on the school programme in France for a long time.
All high school students take an exam in "Philosophie" in order to graduate.
Which explains why, in France, religion is not really considered to be a serious business, all the young people are critical thinkers and to prove it they nearly all wear Nike trainers, caps the wrong way round, and work on their cholesterol levels in the local Macdonalds.
Then when they grow up, and become freethinking adults, the beat all the records for the use of psychoactive drugs, homoeopathic remedies, and visits to the astrologist, faith healer or medium.

Yep - free-thinking, critical thinking has had a powerful impact on French youth.

Other Comments by Richard Morgan

47. Comment #151467 by Barbara on March 28, 2008 at 7:48 pm

I'm not sure how I feel about this weekly 'humanist'/free-thinker gathering. The little girl sounds like a robot (in print).

Other Comments by Barbara

48. Comment #151468 by Bonzai on March 28, 2008 at 7:49 pm

This goes against all the evidence that there is a trend of less religiousness with increasing education.

Just because things aren't 100% correlated does not mean there isn't a definite trend.

Do you have any evidence that formal education corresponds to originality of thought, capacity for critical thinking , independence of the mind and intellectual curiosity? If you do I would like to see it because it is quite at odd with my anecdotal experience.

Other Comments by Bonzai

49. Comment #151469 by Frankus1122 on March 28, 2008 at 7:51 pm

Comment #151462 by Richard Morgan

That's funny.
You can, of course, teach critical thinking skills but whether or not what is provided 'takes' is another matter.
Is there not a parable about sowing seed and its ability to grow depending on the type of soil it lands in?

Other Comments by Frankus1122

50. Comment #151471 by Hobbit on March 28, 2008 at 7:52 pm