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Saturday, March 29, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document In His Name We Pray, Ramen

by The Escapist

Thanks to Justin Deveau for the link.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/issues/issue_142/3048-In-His-Name-We-Pray-Ramen

In His Name We Pray, Ramen
by Russ Pitts

The argument goes like this: There weren't actually any dinosaurs. They didn't exist. Couldn't have. Archeological science puts the age of the oldest dinosaur at about 250 million years; the Earth itself, 4.5 billion. Yet, according to the writings in The Holy Bible, the Earth was created only about 6,000 years ago. That's a discrepancy of about 4,499,994,000 years, give or take, putting the creation of the Earth well after the supposed dinosaurs allegedly lived. Therefore, the theory goes, they didn't exist.

It's not science, exactly, but it's what a great many people believe, and that belief matters more to them than whether or not it can be scientifically proven. They believe there were no dinosaurs the same way people believe in ghosts, UFOs and that their case on Deal or No Deal actually contains the $1 million. Not based on provable facts, but on faith. Good luck changing their minds.

You may think you've seen dinosaur fossils, but you didn't. Not really. Not according to the adherents of faith-based beliefs. What you saw were clever fakes put in the ground by God to give you a plausible reason to doubt his existence. Do you believe in dinosaurs and not God? Gotcha! You're going to hell. Not fair, perhaps, but we're talking about the same guy who flooded the Earth, wiping it clean in order to start over, and leveled an entire city because a few bad apples were sexual deviants. Fairness isn't a priority when you're omnipotent.

So, the Earth is really 6,000 years old instead of 4.5 billion and there were no dinosaurs. Got it? Also, humans did not evolve from an ape-like ancestor. We were created out of whole cloth, from clay, in the form of Adam, the first man. His mate, Eve, came from his spare rib. And then the rest of us issued forth from their loins. This is the faith-based theory of Creationism in a nut shell. It's also known as "intelligent design," and as far as some adherents are concerned, it should replace the chapters in science textbooks about evolution.

"A Lot of Dogma"

In 2005, the Kansas Board of Education was at a crossroads. For years, Kansas schools had been teaching the science-based theory of evolution, filling the heads of little Kansans with Darwin's concept of the origin of the species, and some lawmakers, fed up with this travesty against the teachings of The Bible, had had enough. They wanted equal time given in the classroom to alternate theories, namely intelligent design.

The problem? Intelligent design isn't science-based - you can't prove or disprove it - making it a tough sell for inclusion in a science class. The solution? Change the definition of science. Starting in 2005, after a 6-4 vote of the Board of Education, Kansas schools began teaching scientific theories based not only on direct observation and experimentation, but also on "logical argument and theory building." In other words, faith.

"[The decision] gets rid of a lot of dogma that's being taught in the classroom today," said board member John Bacon, a Republican, and a believer in intelligent design. Bacon and other members of the Board believed the theory of evolution was "unproven," and that intelligent design, although based on improvable hypotheses, was a better fit for the science curriculum of Kansas. The world reacted in horror: Scientists across the nation were outraged, and Bobby Henderson, an out-of-work physicist, was spurred to action. You could say he heard his calling.

"Touched By His Noodly Appendage"

"I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster," Henderson says in an open letter to the Kansas Board of Education. "It was He who created all that we see and all that we feel. We feel strongly that the overwhelming scientific evidence pointing towards evolutionary processes is nothing but a coincidence, put in place by Him."

Henderson's letter goes on to explain that although a scientist can use carbon dating analysis to determine the age of, for example, a fossil in the ground, the results he gathers are altered as he gathers them by the "noodly appendage" of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, an omnipotent, invisible deity Henderson and the "many others" of his faith profess to believe in. Not because He has been scientifically proven to exist, mind you. But because they believe he does. They have faith.

The letter goes on: "It is for this reason that I'm writing you today, to formally request that this alternative theory be taught in your schools, along with the other two theories. In fact, I will go so far as to say, if you do not agree to do this, we will be forced to proceed with legal action. I'm sure you see where we are coming from. If the Intelligent Design theory is not based on faith, but instead another scientific theory, as is claimed, then you must also allow our theory to be taught, as it is also based on science, not on faith."

Henderson provides an example of the brand of science adhered to by the practitioners of his Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, recently dubbed Pastafarians, by showing how the yearly rise in average global temperatures since the 1800s until the present is in inverse proportion to the number of pirates worldwide. He even provided a graph.

Henderson's letter drew national attention, highlighting the irony of teaching faith as science. Visits to his website skyrocketed. Those in a similar state of disbelief over the ordeal in Kansas took up Henderson's proclamation of belief in a Flying Spaghetti Monster as a call to arms, rejecting the notion of faith-based science by professing belief in a deity whose existence could neither be proved, nor disproved; one made of pasta with a side of meatballs. T-shirts were made. The Church, at first proposed only in jest, became real.

Part cult, part satire, the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster now exists in its own world, where science is only as real as we believe it to be; where, according to The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, a book by Henderson published in 2006, heaven is a place with a beer volcano and a stripper factory; where the Pastafarians dress up in "full pirate regalia" at the directive of Him, the Flying Spaghetti Monster, because "He becomes angry if we don't"; and the devout end their prayers with the exclamation "ramen."

Henderson rejects the notion that Pastafarianism is satire, but coming from a man who takes fine art photographs of tacos, the proclamation sounds a bit muffled, as if his tongue were firmly planted in his cheek. Nevertheless, people believe.

"A Profound Kind of Religious Activity"
Since its inception in 2005, The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster has taken on a life of its own: Pastafarians now rally to protest further injustices against common sense (Scientology being a favorite target); FSM sightings are pouring in, and children are instigating religious debate by insisting on their constitutional right to wear the garb prescribed by their religious beliefs, which, in the case of Pastafarianism, is an eye patch.

"If this is what I believe in, no matter how stupid it might sound, I should be able to express myself however I want to," said Weaverville, North Carolina, high school student Bryan Killian. His school's administrators disagreed, refusing to recognize his eye patch as a protected religious article. Killian was suspended from school until he agreed to return sans the Pastafarian accoutrement.

Although easily dismissed as an attack against organized religion, leading scholars suggest The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster may be something else; something as justifiably religious as the religion it seems to be rebelling against. Late last year, The American Academy of Religion met in San Diego to convene its annual theological conference. On the menu: Pastafarianism.

"Though many monsters may inspire terror or serve as scapegoats for psychological or cultural conflicts, monsters can also inspire laughter," reads the lead-in to the discussion based on the paper "Evolutionary Controversy and a Side of Pasta: The Flying Spaghetti Monster and the Subversive Function of Religious Parody." "This laughter may be no less subversive than terror, calling attention to and mischievously ridiculing mythic narratives, beliefs, and widespread cultural faiths that are held sacred. As 'Pastafarians' (loyal followers of the FSM) pledge their religious allegiance to an alternative creation myth inspired by a tangled amalgam of noodles, they seek to confound those who believe metaphysical cosmologies should be actively taught in science classrooms alongside evolutionary theory, offering a potent example of how monstrous humor can be used as a popular tool of carnivalesque subversion."

The paper's author suggested The Church of FSM was created intentionally to be rejected, prompting broader debate on the nature of religion in the process. He praised the church for its "epistemological humility."

"[Pastafarianism is] quite clearly confronting order with disorder," suggested another panelist, religious scholar and author David Chidester, "a profound kind of religious activity that we often overlook."

"Even fake religions do authentically religious work," said Samuel Snyder, author of the paper "Holy Pasta, and Authentic Sauce: The Flying Spaghetti Monster's Messy Implications for Theorizing Religion." He referred to community-forming activities, facilitating exchange of ideas and beliefs and spiritually bolstering their members. Likening, in effect, the wearing of a T-shirt embroidered with the phrase "WWFSMD?" (What Would Flying Spaghetti Monster Do?) to attending mass. A bit of a stretch? Perhaps. But the Pastafarians weren't the first to suggest science was simply God's practical joke.

"Decreased Piracy Contributes to Increased Tropical Cyclone Intensity"

In 2006, the Science Creative Quarterly hosted a competition to provide tangible, scientifically proven evidence of the Flying Spaghetti monster. Entries included such topics as "Piracy as a Preventor of Tropical Cyclones":

We have demonstrated that pirate activity produces upwelling. It is thus obvious that a decreasing pirate population will result in less oceanic upwelling, especially in the Atlantic basin.

As evidenced by the 2004 and 2005 hurricane seasons, decreased upwelling results in increased SST's and more intense tropical cyclones. Our PARROT model predicts that if the downward trend in piracy continues tropical cyclones will intensify.


Sarah Sargent's "Yes, Virginia, There is a Flying Spaghetti Monster":

And yes, Virginia, there are pirates in Kansas. Pirates are everywhere, and they help spread the word of the Flying Spaghetti Monster. The recent snowstorms in Kansas are proof of the valiant fight against global warming. It has not snowed because it is winter. Global warming does not respect calendars. No, it has snowed because the number of pirates in Kansas has increased.


And "Heads Up: Ramen":

With recent research done in string theory, we can prove that we all have been constructed - on a very basic level - to look like Our Dish Most Holy. Super strings reveal to us the unifying and binding miracle of life that He has breathed into us. Every atom of our being is made of quarks which are in turn made of tiny strings vibrating towards spaghettidom.


The yet-to-be-declared winner will receive $100 worth of the Holy Noodles, Ramen.

"It's a Serious Offense to Mock God"

After posting his letter, Henderson has heard from a number of representatives of the State of Kansas, most of whom applauded his efforts.

"Thanks for your comments about the Flying Spaghetti Monster," wrote Janet Waugh, a representative from Kansas' District 1. "I think your theory is wonderful and possibly some of the majority members will be willing to support it."

"We have received thousands of emails from scientists around the world," wrote Carol Rupe, a representative of District 8. "At first, they all tried to explain good science to us. After the vote last week, however, they have resorted to calling us hillbillies and morons. And those are the nice letters!"

But not all the responses were so positive. Kathy Martin, of District 6 had this to say: "It is a serious offense to mock God."

Henderson, who said he wrote his letter for his own amusement as much as anything else, doesn't believe he is mocking God. He's mocking the ignorant. "I don't have a problem with religion," Henderson says. "What I have a problem with is religion posing as science. If there is a God and he's intelligent, then I would guess he has a sense of humor."

Observable Evidence

Henderson's open letter concludes: "I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence."

Unfortunately, he didn't get his wish. Following a 2007 vote to again alter the definition of science in Kansas, there is only one version of the origin of the human species being taught in Kansas public schools: Darwin's. No word yet on whether the Pastafarians intend to follow through with their threat of legal action.

Russ Pitts doesn't believe in isms. His blog can be found at www.falsegravity.com.

Comments 1 - 50 of 59 |

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1. Comment #151741 by JLD Calgary on March 29, 2008 at 9:38 am

Ramen brothers, Ramen ;)

Other Comments by JLD Calgary

2. Comment #151742 by Geoff on March 29, 2008 at 9:39 am

 avatarNo mention of Quetzalcoatl? Heresy!

I need a cup of...errr...coffee.

Other Comments by Geoff

3. Comment #151743 by Partisan on March 29, 2008 at 9:45 am

 avatarBrilliant! Now we just need to set-up a propoganda film mentioning how scientists have expelled(™) FSMism from the classroom and ban PZ from the screening.

Other Comments by Partisan

4. Comment #151747 by SPS on March 29, 2008 at 9:53 am

You know, they say Stalin and Hitler were a-spaghettiists. That explains a lot.

Other Comments by SPS

5. Comment #151753 by b0ltzm0n on March 29, 2008 at 10:14 am

 avatarRAmen my sisters and brothers, RAmen!

Other Comments by b0ltzm0n

6. Comment #151756 by riki on March 29, 2008 at 10:19 am

 avatarSounds like we (humans) are suffering from the Casper Hausen Syndrome, except our box is a bit bigger.

Other Comments by riki

7. Comment #151757 by RobDinsmore on March 29, 2008 at 10:19 am

 avatarNot that I believe this kind of nonsense, but I am always tempted to equate the xtian view of the universe with that of a computer simulation. Here god wrote in the standard model, GR, etc as the rules and put the Earth at 6000 years ago with these silly fake fossils as the initial conditions and hit run on his super complex computer. Of course numerical error is responsible for all the physics we cannot yet understand and the "soul" is merely the portion of memory containing each individuals thoughts, so of course he know all of thoughts. He then interferes with this simulation from time to time just to see how it reacts. It also explains why he gets so angry when we don't appreciate how much work he put into getting this simulation to work. I mean c'mon have any of you tried to get a simulation that works on timescales that span ~100 orders of magnitude. Holy shit is that hard.

Other Comments by RobDinsmore

8. Comment #151760 by robotaholic on March 29, 2008 at 10:25 am

 avatarPirates hahaha

Other Comments by robotaholic

9. Comment #151768 by Apathy personified on March 29, 2008 at 10:54 am

 avatarWorship of the FSM can not be counted as a religion, because they haven't had a schism yet, as all the good religions do.

Other Comments by Apathy personified

10. Comment #151769 by Pattern Seeker on March 29, 2008 at 10:55 am

 avatarRead along to get a laugh and found they included something about the kid from Weaverville, NC. I remember this story when it first broke around here (I live in Western North Carolina) and how people were going ape-shit. Hilarious. The kid was pretty witty, if I remember correctly.

On a side note-

I produce (and pretty much everything else, as well) a public access television show here in Carolina. It seems to take up a lot of my spare time, but I find it challenging. Anyways-my latest effort is about RELIGION! It will hit the airwaves in a few days, but here's your chance to see it first.

http://youtube.com/user/zackglickman

It's a half-hour program split into 5 parts. Here is a quick blurb on what it's about.

A satirical look at some of our favorite educational and public domain films of yesteryear, 'Public Flogging' is a public access show now available for online consumption. An eclectic mash-up of comic book, pop-ups, animations, subliminals and FX, 'Public Flogging' is unlike anything you've ever seen...or been so offended by. You've been warned-Now, prepare to be ridiculed.

Let me know what you think.

Sorry for the thread diversion...

Regards,

Zack

Other Comments by Pattern Seeker

11. Comment #151771 by paulsteer on March 29, 2008 at 10:59 am

I am a Pastafarian and I have been "Touched By His Noodly Appendage" and can confirm the deep spiritual experience that results. Check out Bobby Henderson's official website, inspired by His noodliness...

http://www.venganza.org/

You can even buy the FSM gospel...(UK link)

http://www.play.com/Books/Books/4-/1010867/The-Gospel-of-the-Flying-Spaghetti-Monster/Product.html

It is clearly THE one true religion and promises a stripper factory & a beer volcano in its heaven. It also allows flimsy moral standards and even offers a 30 day trial. You can't say fairer than that.

Enjoy!

Other Comments by paulsteer

12. Comment #151780 by the_ultimate_samurai on March 29, 2008 at 11:19 am


Brilliant! Now we just need to set-up a propoganda film mentioning how scientists have expelled(â„¢) FSMism from the classroom and ban PZ from the screening.

RAMEN!

Other Comments by the_ultimate_samurai

13. Comment #151783 by tieInterceptor on March 29, 2008 at 11:23 am

 avatarthe escapist.com is also home to "zero punctuation", totally unrelated to religion but deadly funny,

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

14. Comment #151791 by gimlibengloin on March 29, 2008 at 11:47 am

The above article, though, is pretty awful. Any one who ventures onto a creationist website and searches for "dinosaurs" will discover that they most certainly believe that dinosaurs existed and that the fossils are genuine. the author is clearly being dishonest.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

15. Comment #151795 by D'Arcy on March 29, 2008 at 12:10 pm

 avatarDon't these heretic FSM people realise that John Frum is the real God? I mean, what are the FSM people going to do? Will they send in Long John Silver, Capt. Flint on shoulder and wack the Kansas School Board with his crutches?

Nay! Far better to wait for John Frum to re-appear from under his (different) volcano, and go to Kansas and remove all ice cream parlours, hamburger and Coca-Cola joints. This way John Frum will starve them into sense!

Other Comments by D'Arcy

16. Comment #151815 by Duff on March 29, 2008 at 1:07 pm

gimlibengloin,
Does it effect you at all to know that you are a silly, simple person, erroneously living in the 21st century when in fact your mind is still in the middle east some 3000 years ago? No, I thought not.

Other Comments by Duff

17. Comment #151817 by Vadjong on March 29, 2008 at 1:18 pm

 avatar
10. Comment #151768 by Apathy personified on March 29, 2008 at 10:54 am
Worship of the FSM can not be counted as a religion, because they haven't had a schism yet, as all the good religions do.


I can provide a heresy topic for you :
Do you curl the pasta skilfully round your fork, or brutally cut it all up with your knife ?

Other Comments by Vadjong

18. Comment #151819 by FightingFalcon on March 29, 2008 at 1:30 pm

 avatar"If this is what I believe in, no matter how stupid it might sound, I should be able to express myself however I want to," said Weaverville, North Carolina, high school student Bryan Killian. His school's administrators disagreed, refusing to recognize his eye patch as a protected religious article. Killian was suspended from school until he agreed to return sans the Pastafarian accoutrement.

Blasphemy!!

Seriously though - what gives any school the right to tell students what is an acceptable religion and what isn't? Respect to all or respect to none. (Clearly the latter being the better option).

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

19. Comment #151820 by Apathy personified on March 29, 2008 at 1:36 pm

 avatarVadjong, i can see the schism has already started, 'brutally cut it all up', I tenderly slice in into smaller pieces so when I eat it, my clothes don't suffer the consequences.
Ha, yes, now it's a real religion!!

Other Comments by Apathy personified

20. Comment #151827 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 2:05 pm

 avatarBobby Henderson is a true prophet and Pasterfarianism is the one true way.

The spaghetti monster is the one true god. This is self evident as it is the simplest explainantion. I mean if you were an alien and came across the Earth would you say it was all created by an indicisive god who made so many mistakes he had to send his son to sort them out or would you say that it was created by His Noodleyness, who makes no mistakes whatsoever.

By the way, don't even think of pictorialising Bobby.

Other Comments by newskin

21. Comment #151838 by Aidan86 on March 29, 2008 at 2:40 pm

Duff, Gimlibengloin has a point, the article severely mischaracterises the creationist position. This should be their tactic, not ours. Bad article, in my view.

Other Comments by Aidan86

22. Comment #151842 by D'Arcy on March 29, 2008 at 2:46 pm

 avatarThese Pastafarians must learn of the true God, John Frum. No noodly appendages required just some G.I.s and a South Paciffic island (plus volcano).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Frum

Other Comments by D'Arcy

23. Comment #151843 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 2:47 pm

 avatarAiden 86 - the article severely mischaracterises the creationist position.

I agree to an extent, but creationists hardly do a good job of explaining the existance of dinosaurs which is what i think the author was getting at.

Other Comments by newskin

24. Comment #151846 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 2:53 pm

 avatar
These Pastafarians must learn of the true God, John Frum.


Blasphemy!! Although His Noodleyness explicitly forbids harming (let alone killing) other humans, talk of The Frum is a convenient exception!

Best beware, or you may receive powdered pasta in the post....

Other Comments by newskin

25. Comment #151858 by Aidan86 on March 29, 2008 at 3:11 pm

newskin:I agree to an extent, but creationists hardly do a good job of explaining the existance of dinosaurs which is what i think the author was getting at.
---
But they do go to great lengths to explain in great (nonsense) detail how we coexisted, how they are in fact the dragons of the bible, how they were originally vegetarian, how man killed them off, etc. When a creationist reads such a misrepresentation of their position "they don't even believe in dinosaurs!" they feel justified in their beliefs, and feel even more strongly that they need to push for creationism to be taught properly in schools.

That's why we should show creationism for what it is. It's funny enough without having to lie about it.

Other Comments by Aidan86

26. Comment #151859 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 3:15 pm

 avatar
That's why we should show creationism for what it is. It's funny enough without having to lie about it.


No further arguement here!

Other Comments by newskin

27. Comment #151861 by Homo economicus on March 29, 2008 at 3:16 pm

 avatarBought "The Gospel of the Flying Spaghetti Monster" at the MSP airport after the American Atheist Conference.

Funny as hell.

Other Comments by Homo economicus

28. Comment #151891 by Gwendolyn on March 29, 2008 at 4:13 pm

As a devoted pasta lover, I always rejoice at hearing hymns about the Flying Spaghetti Monster. However, I gagged at the second line: I doubt archeologists have had anything to say about dinosaurs at all. They've had much more to say about pirates!
And as for schisms, I hasten to inform the public that that side of meatballs is a later corruption of the true Flying Spaghetti Monster in all his tomato-and-herb-scented purity!

Other Comments by Gwendolyn

29. Comment #151930 by Pilot22A on March 29, 2008 at 5:12 pm

Does the Old Spaghetti Factory in Portland have anything to do with the Spaghetti Monster?

Other Comments by Pilot22A

30. Comment #151934 by rod-the-farmer on March 29, 2008 at 5:17 pm

 avatarI think the ball has been dropped on the lawsuit issue. I think we all need to file this same sort of suit in every jurisdiction where ID is being proposed. Multiple lawsuits promoting the FSM. A veritable fusilliade.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

31. Comment #151937 by mrjonno on March 29, 2008 at 5:20 pm

I find it highly offensive that articles like this confuse serious science and pasta based theology of pastafarism which complete artificial made by committee joke religions like christianity

Other Comments by mrjonno

32. Comment #151946 by Double Bass Atheist on March 29, 2008 at 5:46 pm

 avatarAs we well know, sometimes humor is the best weapon... with Scorn and Ridicule supplying the ordinance.

Now, slightly off-topic...
Everyone, if you haven't done so already, please check out Pattern Seeker's link in post #11 of this thread! It's some great work... probably should have a thread of its own.
I PM'd him (check your PM Zack!) and suggested starting a thread in the forums.

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

33. Comment #151965 by atkinson on March 29, 2008 at 7:11 pm

 avatarDept. of inadvertent accuracy
. . . intelligent design, although based on improvable hypotheses, was a better fit for the science curriculum of Kansas.


Other Comments by atkinson

34. Comment #151972 by dragonfirematrix on March 29, 2008 at 7:55 pm

 avatarPlease put the following quote from the Henderson article on a billboard near Liberty University. I suggest the high traffic area at the mall on Chandlers Mountain Road near the entrance to 460 East and 460 West.

"I think we can all look forward to the time when these three theories are given equal time in our science classrooms across the country, and eventually the world; One third time for Intelligent Design, one third time for Flying Spaghetti Monsterism, and one third time for logical conjecture based on overwhelming observable evidence."

I live in Forest, VA, about six miles from Liberty University. Kansas is not the only place where Neanderthals reside, however, some of us living here can still think.

Other Comments by dragonfirematrix

35. Comment #151983 by Satanburiedfossils on March 29, 2008 at 9:23 pm

 avatar[Edit note: I deleted a few paragraphs that I felt were not properly developed. I also made a few minor changes. ~Satanburiedfossils]

Kathy Martin, of District 6 had this to say: "It is a serious offense to mock God."


Is it possible that a god delights in threatening and terrifying men? What glory, what honor and renown a god must win on such a field! The ocean raving at a drop; a star envious of a candle; the sun jealous of a fire-fly.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, "Heretics And Hericies" (1874)

That a supreme being should be omnipotent, immortal, and indestructible, and yet have an ego that is so fragile that the slightest affront causes it to go to pieces like a small child beggars the imagination!

Do believers even realize how they belittle their supposedly all-powerful God by saddling him with an overtly weak ego?

But then, perhaps it is not the deity itself that possesses the fragile ego (a moot point if the deity doesn't really exist in the first place) but the followers themselves.

Faith is like a house built on a weak foundation. The slightest disturbance can cause it to go crashing to the ground. Hence, religion, which is built upon the weak foundation of faith, remains in a perpetual state of tottering.

This is why true believers must close their ears, their eyes, and their minds to any disturbance to the substructure.

Religion's greatest enemy is reason. If religion had any credibility, it would not fear reason.

Religions often preach about "truths", but these "truths" are usually just groundless assertions accepted only by those indoctrinated in the Faith. A "truth" is only true if it accepted by the non-believer as well as the believer (or as someone once said: A "truth" must [1] actually be true, and [2] be provable as being true). Evidence is what makes something true. A groundless assertion presented as truth, but lacking requisite evidence, is at best, a mistake, or at worst, a lie.

If religion really were founded on "truths", then unbiased exploration of these truths would strengthen religious belief, not weaken it.

Suppose we have religions X, Y, and Z. The respective adherents of X, Y, and Z believe in the ultimate truthfulness of their particular faiths. X, Y, and Z are also mutually exclusive, which means that if you practice X you must reject Y and Z. Adherents of X are indoctrinated to believe in the verisimilitude of X, and the same goes for Y and Z.

But how, for example, do adherents of X know they are practicing the One True Faith? If the foundation for believing X cannot be tested, how do they know X is the correct religion?

Now, if an agnostic wishes to choose among X, Y, and Z, how does the agnostic come to a decision. What tangible benefits, for example, can adherents of X show over adherents of Y and Z?

If one can show no tangible benefits for believing in X, then Y and Z are just as good candidates for belief. (Or perhaps NONE are if X, Y, and Z can present no tangible benefits.)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

A minister wrote in the margin of his sermon notes, "Weak argument here. Shout louder."
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/dave_armstrong/middle_men.html

The problem with arguing from a position of Faith is that the believer has already painted himself into a corner. Whatever assertions he makes will necessarily beg the question, because faith cannot be supported by evidence nor can it be scientifically tested. How then does one go about proving an assertion that it is based solely on opinion and not on fact? While the believer may confidently assert that he "knows" himself to be correct, how will he go about proving it? Does the believer think himself infallible? And if his assertion could be proven, it would no longer be a matter of faith, it would be a matter of fact.

Suppose we have authorities A, B, and C, each of which is mutually exclusive. Each of these authorities claims to be the holder of the "absolute truth", yet none can offer anything to prove this assertion. A believer who has been indoctrinated to believe in the veracity of authority A will naturally dispute the validity of authorities B and C. But are authorities B and C invalidated simply because the believer doesn't recognize them?

Imagine two religionists of contrary faiths engaging in a debate to decide which is right and which is wrong. Would not the debate ultimately become an exercise in futility? Would it be surprising if the debate quickly degenerated into a war of words, each opponent loudly quoting verses from his respective holy books, as if to sway the other simply by the weight of mere belief?

Perhaps this explains why throughout history religionists have found it more expedient to convert infidels on the point of a sword rather than on the point of an argument.

Other Comments by Satanburiedfossils

36. Comment #152000 by HitbLade on March 30, 2008 at 12:34 am

"you people are idiots!"
"how dare you mock God!?"

Do you become a christian if you think backwards, or do you start thinking backwards if you are a christian?

Other Comments by HitbLade

37. Comment #152002 by Bigorra on March 30, 2008 at 1:21 am

 avatar
"If this is what I believe in, no matter how stupid it might sound, I should be able to express myself however I want to," said Weaverville, North Carolina, high school student Bryan Killian.


Way to go, young man, couldn't have said it any better.

It's always enlightening to see how people react when they glimpse their reflection, and the fact that the Flying Spaghetti Monster offends so many religious people shows the idea to be a great reflector, not to mention a great source of humor.

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38. Comment #152004 by utelme on March 30, 2008 at 2:10 am

Infidels. Mahommaroni is the only true prophet. Death to all Pastafarianists!

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39. Comment #152005 by bugaboo on March 30, 2008 at 2:16 am

Penne from heaven?

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40. Comment #152013 by RainDear on March 30, 2008 at 2:51 am

I like this FSM deity very much, but it stops half way.

The ID proponents try to base their case on equal time, free speech, democracy and so on. That seems to be a very convincing argument, and a pretty slick move on their part. It's quite hard to argue against equality and freedom of thought -- not that the ID fascists are really promoting that, as their ideal, theocratic society would be modelled after the Middle Ages.

But of course their argument is not about free speech, equality or democracy. It is chauvinistic, rasist and oppressive to the thousands of other creation theories of thousands of other religions. The curriculum shouldn't be divided into just three parts, but into at least a hundred parts.

The theory of my people says the world was created when a scaup's egg fell off a Water Maiden's knee (apparently both of them had always existed). Why do you Americans embrace the FSM and a couple of some weird Middle Eastern myths, but discard all the Scandinavian ones?

This FSM thing is a pretty cool idea, but easily dismissed as a joke. How about all the native American, Hawaiian or a hundred other mythical creation theories? They should all get their 15 minutes!

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41. Comment #152097 by Henri Bergson on March 30, 2008 at 5:19 am

 avatarWhy has this website not yet mentioned Geert Wilders' anti-Islam film?

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42. Comment #152099 by epeeist on March 30, 2008 at 5:37 am

 avatarComment #152097 by Henri Bergson
Why has this website not yet mentioned Geert Wilders' anti-Islam film?
There have been some comments about it on various threads.

Do you think it should have its own thread, and if so why?

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43. Comment #152110 by gimlibengloin on March 30, 2008 at 6:32 am

Creationists would argue that since God created land animals and humans on the same day therefore dinosaurs by virtue of being land animalsmust have coexisted with humans. The only question is whether there exists evidence for such a belief. Obviously the fossil record is a problem, in a sense, for the creationists because we don't find humans and dinosaurs fossilised together. On the other hand the creationists assert that the fossil record is an even bigger problem for evolutionists due to the lack of evidence for gradual change. Rather organisms tend to just appear in the record with no ancestors or descendants. Also they argue the record is just a reflection of the fact that dinosaurs and humans didn't live in the same areas ie we don't find humans and tigers buried together.
In regard to 'history' though as opposed to pre-history the creationists will point to ancient art eg literature, paintings, engravings which do bear a resemblance to large reptiles. They would argue that this shows evidence that dinosaurs and humans have coexisted. I wonder what we do with such 'evidence'?

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44. Comment #152123 by black wolf on March 30, 2008 at 7:36 am

 avatarWell, we do have archaeological evidence of people in the same places with rodents, deer, wild cats, bears, pigs, mammoth etc. Dinosaurs are the only animal we don't find in contemporary relation. But as the YE creationist argument relies on the assertion that all our dating methods are faulty (and completely wrong when they point to more than 6,000 years or so), each assertion countered leads to more assertions. From reading accounts from people who left creationism, I know that it takes years of consideration and doubt to get through to them. I haven't seen a single one drop creationism in an instant. Most weren't even aware that real science has mountains of good evidence in its favor, because that fact is kept from them at every effort. All reasonable people can do is present the evidence again and again, and to show how new evidence is found all the time. They need to find their way out of their ideology on their own, just like it takes followers of extreme Communism or racism a long time to re-evaluate their position.

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45. Comment #152128 by prettygoodformonkeys on March 30, 2008 at 8:00 am

 avatarThis may bear repeating:

Verily, I say unto you that it shall come to pass that when the Antipasto has reigned for 1,000 years, and mankind has simmered in its own juices for all that time, then will the Cheeses return to earth "trailing clouds of Glorious Sauce", adorned by Precious Raymond, and attended by a host of exceedingly heavenly condiments, and He will judge us all, finding us either Al Dente or not Al Dente.

And it shall come to pass that the most succulent of us shall drift skyward, along with one-half of every chair, each after its own kind, and they shall be guided by the two angels, Fusilli and Linguini, to gaze finally upon the noodly countenance of the FSM.

It has been said of old that "No man can serve two pastas", and yet, lo, I say unto you that side salads shall be served, with Caesar dressing rendered unto those salads that are Caesars, and Romano spears of Brochetti shall cause the tomato sauce to flow from their sides.

Those not chosen shall be simmered much longer, and must sit on the remaining half-chairs, with their Left Behinds. And there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth from the discomfort thereof.

Anyone who adds a word to this, or takes away a word, shall be in danger of the Judgement: sent off without supper.

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46. Comment #152130 by Vandemeer on March 30, 2008 at 8:07 am

Being a former Lutheran I disagree with gimlibengloin about the author being dishonest. The term he used was faith-based adherent not creationist. I can vouch for the fact that conservative LCMS dogma infers that dinosaur bones were placed there to test one's faith.



"But we can be absolutely certain
that God created everything in the
universe, including the fossilized
dinosaur bones whose age we measure
to be 100 million years. For us
to expect to understand how He did
this is complete folly on our part."

-Lutheran Witness - Jan. 05


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47. Comment #152135 by robotaholic on March 30, 2008 at 8:33 am

 avatarexactly what black wolf said! -
Most weren't even aware that real science has mountains of good evidence in its favor, because that fact is kept from them at every effort.

I left the cult I was raised in when I had access to evidence for evolution - and then it kept coming and coming and pouring on me until I could see everywhere I looked that evolution was absolutely a FACT- the idea that it would have to be a conspiracy on the grandest scale imaginable on the part of scientists to try to force people to believe in evolution- well that just seemed rediculous- that is when I really started appreciating Dawkins and other biologists (and just the science in general) and all the hard work these scientists do for years and years to discover how it is that there is so much diversity of life on this planet.

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48. Comment #152177 by Mal3 on March 30, 2008 at 11:05 am

 avatarBah! Pastafarianism is an upstart, baby religion. We Discordians have been singing praise to Her Wot Done It All since the 70's.

Hows -that- for credibility?

Hail Eris.

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49. Comment #152178 by AmericanGodless on March 30, 2008 at 11:07 am

 avatarPost 43 above, Comment #152110 by gimlibengloin:
"..the fossil record is an even bigger problem for evolutionists due to the lack of evidence for gradual change" -- Read "Your Inner Fish" by Neil Shubin.

"Also they argue the record is just a reflection of the fact that dinosaurs and humans didn't live in the same areas ie we don't find humans and tigers buried together." -- but unlike humans and dinousaurs, we DO find humans and tigers fossilized in rocks (and buried in soil) of the same age.

"..creationists will point to ancient art eg literature, paintings, engravings which do bear a resemblance to large reptiles." -- Reptiles would be familiar to most human culture, as would the notion of gigantism. Also, some dinosaur bones may have been found during human pre-history and may have inspired myths of dragons. It has long been thought that the Greeks may have been inspired to invent the cyclops based on prehistoric dwarf elephant skulls, in which the large nasal opening was mistaken for an eye socket.

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50. Comment #152195 by Buddha on March 30, 2008 at 12:09 pm

 avatar
Bah! Pastafarianism is an upstart, baby religion. We Discordians have been singing praise to Her Wot Done It All since the 70's.

Hows -that- for credibility?

Hail Eris


All Hail Discordia!

Note that this is comment #152195, which contains two 5's (Law of Fives). It was also posted in 2008(2008 - 8 = 2000, 2000 / 1000 = 2), and on March 30 (30 / 10 = 3) thus giving 23!!!

Spooky eh?

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