1. Comment #156866 by Storeo on April 8, 2008 at 10:45 am

Richard I have to say I admire your patience in dealing with this, how shall I say, 'interesting' audience.

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2. Comment #156873 by Silent.Bomber on April 8, 2008 at 10:54 am

I admire Richard's tenacity in the teeth of such an overwhelming mob of fools.

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3. Comment #156877 by Steve Zara on April 8, 2008 at 10:58 am

The special guest will be the renowned atheist, scientist and writer, Professor Richard Dawkins.

I know what they are trying to say, but the term "renowned atheist" seems a bit odd to me. It implies a special skill at being atheist.

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4. Comment #156878 by Stephen Maxwell on April 8, 2008 at 10:59 am

During the programme, Richard used the best adjective to describe our feelings about some of the nonsense that the audience were spewing. Astonished.

I'm really in disbelief regarding a lot of the comments, particularly the African American Evangelical lady, and the Christian Choice Mayor of London Candidate. I can't believe he accused Richard Dawkins of arrogance, then said "of course the Devil exists."

What better example of delusion.

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5. Comment #156882 by friendly-atheist on April 8, 2008 at 11:03 am

betty king and that man running for mayor of london both made me cringe.

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6. Comment #156885 by sceptic_ka on April 8, 2008 at 11:10 am

Can immigrants make Britain more moral?
This is definitely a loaded question, they seem to imply that Britain is not moral enough.

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7. Comment #156890 by robotaholic on April 8, 2008 at 11:18 am

I have so much respect for Richard Dawkins. I don't like him having to sit over by himself either-but I wouldn't want to sit with those people-

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8. Comment #156891 by Spiral on April 8, 2008 at 11:19 am

"Some people reckon he's the devil..."

I love prof. Dawkins smile on that one!
I'm sure some were scared to death, staring right into the eyes of the devil!

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9. Comment #156897 by Sargeist on April 8, 2008 at 11:23 am

I know it would probably backfire, but part of me really wants Richard to say: "Yeah, you know what, I *am* the devil!", wait for people to laugh, and then say "well, you can't prove I'm not, and I say I am, so I must be"

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10. Comment #156898 by Dundee Atheist on April 8, 2008 at 11:24 am

Big Questions? Big Bairn's Questions more like.

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11. Comment #156899 by Vadjong on April 8, 2008 at 11:28 am

Luckily I have a mental blockade against debate programs, so I don't have to waste time sitting through this.
The furious talking, the clapping, everybody wanting to react at the same time, the inevitable inanity; the level of energy just grates my nerves, even before I find out who's right or wrong or whether I care about it at all.
I'll await your comments to get the gist of it in my own sweet time. Thank you in advance.

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12. Comment #156904 by TheSwede on April 8, 2008 at 11:34 am

Well, "Satan" meaning advarsary or opponent (I believe) would make RD the Devil, wouldn't it?

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13. Comment #156905 by designsoda on April 8, 2008 at 11:36 am

I've never seen this line of argument of "We're discussing issues in a vacuum" to defend death threats against writers. Bizarre.

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14. Comment #156906 by Sargeist on April 8, 2008 at 11:37 am

Ah, trust TheSwede to make me think seriously about what I said! :)

I'm watching part 3 now... biggest problem so far: Nicky Campbell says "Surely all our views are valid, aren't they?"

What a load of shite.

Thank goodness for Richard's: "No". The greatest blunt No since Nick Clegg's.

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15. Comment #156913 by Sargeist on April 8, 2008 at 11:42 am

Hmm, part 4 now...

I can think of one person who needs to be discussing things in a vacuum... it would make the program a bit less shrill and annoying. grrr.

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16. Comment #156918 by designsoda on April 8, 2008 at 11:53 am

I guess the whole "in a vacuum" idea is a convoluted way of saying "it's not that simple" in order to dodge a straightforward point.

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17. Comment #156931 by LaTomate on April 8, 2008 at 12:06 pm

At least we know these people exist in this country now.

I wonder how they "selected" the audience. I raise my hat to Richard... I would have blown my top :)

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18. Comment #156932 by 10wattmindtrip on April 8, 2008 at 12:06 pm

The state that those peoples minds are in deeply saddens me.

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19. Comment #156935 by radiohead on April 8, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Its possible that's the audience was "carefully" chosen but this is an astonishing example of the plunge into moral relativism and political correct dishonesty that seems to pass for intelligent discussion in Britain. Everyone bar Dawkins it seems fails to see the elephant in the room which is Islam. A recent poll shows four out of 10 Muslims want to see sharia law imposed in Britain. I also remember another recent poll showing quite high support for suicide bombing among British Muslims. It was quite humorous to see most of the commentators mention Poles, Asians and Africans etc without mentioning what is on everyone's mind which is Islam.

The first part of the debate was smokescreen in another way as well, it equated morality with religion. Where was the British Humanist representative? Where was the butcher the baker and the candlesticker maker too? Talking about morality along with bishops, rabbis and Christian evangelicals? For the religious have about as much to offer us in terms of ethical insight with the tradesmen.

Islam in particular have nothing to offer the west. It reminds me of Sam Harris's stern warning that the west is at war with Islam.

(ha i have just seen a rep from the secular society)

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20. Comment #156939 by Cartomancer on April 8, 2008 at 12:17 pm

There's no other explanation for bad things happening than to conjure up big red pointy-eared daemon that's pulling all the strings? What! Did someone who wants to be taken seriously in our society ACTUALLY SAY THAT! I'm quite simply flabbergasted at the casual way in which this man disregards having to think about and analyse complicated historical problems. He actually betrays himself later on when he says something like "it's really very simple" with that approving tone. He actually does believe that a very simple answer which doesn't require any thinking is always the best answer. William of Ockham would be spinning in his grave to know he had such a facile co-religionist as that odious little man.

I need a lie down after that...

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21. Comment #156940 by akado on April 8, 2008 at 12:17 pm

wow................

I can't believe how mosty of these people acted and got claps by what they said ._.

it really is depressing to me.
I give large kudos to richard!
for having to put up with these same questions everyday and explaining the same thing in a way they can understand and even through all that they still twist your words to try to work against him.

KUDOS RICHARD for all you out up with!

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22. Comment #156949 by Stephan on April 8, 2008 at 12:30 pm

This is simply incredible and horrifying!
"Of course the devil exists, how can you explain Hitler and the Holocaust"... that's the kind of "reasoning" I would expect from and accept in a 3-year-old child! And here we have almost an entire studio full of adults who have been given (by natural selection, of course ;->) the mighty human brain for NOTHING! The fact alone that we are having a serious tv discussion on issues such as the devil in the 21st century, scares the hell out of me!!!
That outrageously stupid mayor candidate revealed it himself: "It's the only SATISFACTORY answer," he said. When I failed to pass the driver's test the first time, my bad driving certainly was not a SATISFACTORY answer, but well... do I have to say more? If wish thinking really is the guideline for truth today then we have not surpassed the dark ages, and the Enlightenment has never taken place...

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23. Comment #156955 by Paula Kirby on April 8, 2008 at 12:34 pm

Cartomancer: He actually betrays himself later on when he says something like "it's really very simple" with that approving tone.

At one point, if I remember correctly, he (the "he" who is standing as London Mayor, no less!!!!!) concedes that there ARE other explanations for the Holocaust, but says that the devil is "the most satisfying one".

I have to confess I hadn't realised that my personal satisfaction had that much bearing on reality. Though I'm delighted to hear that it has - it's terribly good news.

Let's all have a vote and see which version of historical "truth" we find most "satisfying", shall we? Now then, where shall we start? How about the Battle of Hastings? Wouldn't it have been so much more satisfying if Harold had won? Yes? No problem! Consider it done.

Now then, I for one would have liked to see women get the vote on equal terms with men right from the very start - that would have been very satisfying indeed. So I'm going to close my eyes and wish very hard ... and voila!

Goodness. I had no idea being a historian was so easy. Or so much fun. Wonder if it works for science too? How about we have a vote to decide whether it would be satisfying if the Big Bang had been caused by an exploding crisp packet? It would save all those poor cosmologists so much time and trouble.

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24. Comment #156958 by Eventhorizon on April 8, 2008 at 12:39 pm

The producers obviously excelled themselves in choosing the guests this week. It looks like they wheeled out the gold plated nutters to even the score a bit after choosing Richard, Peter Tatchell, Douglas Murray and the Secular Society guy.

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25. Comment #156964 by Jiten on April 8, 2008 at 12:46 pm

Richard hardly got a word in.Why invite a distinguished guest and then waste him by not using him more?Even that empty-head Miriam spoke more!

"Of course the devil exists, how can you explain Hitler and the Holocaust"... that's the kind of "reasoning" I would expect from and accept in a 3-year-old child!

Actually 3-year-olds cannot reason.3-years-olds are lovely,lively,full of curiosity little humans and there is no reason to denigrate them just to point out the stupidity of adult humans.Just say it straight.Some adult humans are just incredibly stupid.

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26. Comment #156966 by Sargeist on April 8, 2008 at 12:48 pm

Paula,

Great post, but I'm afraid I was slightly distracted while reading it because I wished really hard and am now a billionaire married to Naoko Mori.

The way the world works is such a surprise to me. How could I ever not have noticed before?!

Right, what's next... lime jelly trees and crisp bushes...

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27. Comment #156969 by Vaal on April 8, 2008 at 12:49 pm

That devil. He is a fantastic scapegoat!

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28. Comment #156972 by Philip1978 on April 8, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Interesting and sometimes highly infuriating debate but on the whole I enjoyed its lively attitude, especially the freedom to offend but not incite hatred debate.

I do have one question from it all, and its for Professor Dawkins.

Do you think Jesus actually existed as a human being? You mentioned that as a scientist Adam could never have existed and I completely concur with that, but I find it odd that you think Jesus did.

From all my studies into the subject I have not yet found any accurate description or historical account that proves Jesus of Nazareth ever existed as a human being, let alone a messiah.

My conclusions so far are that he is a character derived from the traditions of previous Near Eastern Religions that follows a set pattern of events, namely virgin births, death and resurrection etc. Since most religions were created by word of mouth, passed down throughout the ages I think it is no surprise that Jesus's story is not really in any way different from that of Horus the Egyptian god for example.

The connection with the Zodiac, the position of the sun in the sky, the significance of certain dates like the 25th of December or the Bright Star in the East etc are all also highly important when explaining the story of Jesus or even Horus as it is described in the Bible or the book of the Dead. These stories surfaced centuries before Christianity arrived and it is no coincidence that Jesus is described as he is.

I would be very interested to hear what you have to say on this matter, I have done a bit of research on it but I am always welcome to a new approach

kind regards


Philip Priestley

Other Comments by Philip1978

29. Comment #156975 by bmkern on April 8, 2008 at 12:57 pm

I think my IQ may have gone down by watching that... what a miserable excuse for an informed discussion.

As a side note: so much for the British claim of superior reason in the public sector (vs. America)...

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30. Comment #156977 by Bertybob on April 8, 2008 at 1:01 pm

I watched this "live" whilst decorating the hallway.

It always makes me cringe. Nicky Campbell does not help, generally a condescending arrogant tw*t.

Did anyone spot how Tom Butler expertly sidestepped the question about Exorcists in each Diocese?

I loved the jeer RD got when he said there was no evidence for God. Obviously the God botherers think there is. I'd love to just see the retort of "If you have any evidence I suggest you publish it as you will be having a jolly to Sweden to pick up your Nobel Prize for Physics".

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31. Comment #156979 by Mark Barratt on April 8, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Incredible. Just incredible.

Are these people so consumed with relativism that they don't realise that while you're entitled to your opinion you're not entitled to your own facts? Someone who doesn't believe in gravity will still fall when they jump off a building. Try it, it works every time. What the fuck are these people smoking?

And what the fuck has religion (whatever that is, last time I looked there were thousands of religions with conflicting rules whose followers hated each other) to do with morality?

The Hitler thing at the end reminded me of the furore over "Downfall", and that Hitler programme with Alec Guinness. Both times the criticism was that Hitler was portrayed as a human being. But Hitler WAS human, he was flesh and blood just like the rest of us, which is something we need to accept.

Pretending Hitler was some sort of inhuman monster only serves to free us of the responsibility of facing up to what humans just like us are capable of in the wrong circumstances. Claiming that humans couldn't have perpetrated the Holocaust, that it must have been The Devil, serves exactly the same function. It's truly pathetic that supposedly educated adults in the 21st century would speak in this fashion in public.

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32. Comment #156981 by Reg on April 8, 2008 at 1:04 pm

Shocking! The majority of our species is absolutely barking mad. So, Adolf was just an innocent puppet (and hence a victim) of the Great Horned One. I like others find this depressing. This institutional ignorance, in all its guises, puts such a drag on our desperately needed advancement, both moral and intellectual. It is a great shame that sooooo many have been damaged, Stockholm syndrome for the people, or maybe the intellectual Black Death. I'm OK, I've inoculated myself with MMR (much more reason).

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33. Comment #156984 by hillbilly78 on April 8, 2008 at 1:07 pm

"How do you explain the barbarism of the Second World War if the Devil does not exist?"

Replace with:

"How do you explain the mass casualties of the Tsunami of December 26, 2004 if it wasn't for the existence of Poseidon?"

Both equally stupid and immoral questions.

Other Comments by hillbilly78

34. Comment #156989 by ligfietser on April 8, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Did i miss the part in which the evidence for Britain's moral decline was presented?

Other Comments by ligfietser

35. Comment #156991 by freesome on April 8, 2008 at 1:13 pm

It's hilarious!

Does the devil exist? The big question playing on everybody's mind.

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36. Comment #156993 by shad0w on April 8, 2008 at 1:17 pm

WOW !!!
This was an _ASTONISHING_ display of ignorance.

My goodness.... I am at a total lack of words to describe what i just saw.....

The holocaust was the work of the devil????
The woman actually _performed_ exorcisms and "drove the devil out" ????
Someone remind me again what century we're living in please!!!!

Other Comments by shad0w

37. Comment #156999 by Eventhorizon on April 8, 2008 at 1:21 pm

Philip1978

Richard was asked this once in an interview and he seemed to think that Jesus probably did exist. I seem to remember him saying that the evidence wasnt nearly as strong as say the evidence for thinking that Julius Caesar existed though

Other Comments by Eventhorizon

38. Comment #157003 by gaving on April 8, 2008 at 1:27 pm

I really wish they would stop making these programmes. They just end up putting me in a fit of depression for the rest of the day.

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39. Comment #157017 by Eventhorizon on April 8, 2008 at 1:43 pm

gaving

I know how you feel but take heart. Each day science is advancing on the ground the religious had claimed their own and atheists are now more numerable than they ever have been since the awful idea of 'the big bogey man' was stumbled upon.
The futures Bright!

Other Comments by Eventhorizon

40. Comment #157018 by jaytee_555 on April 8, 2008 at 1:44 pm

I watched this program live on TV, and my heart sank by the minute as I realised the level of bigotry, stupidity and vested interest that Richard was up against. It seemed almost as if he had been invited there as a token "object of hate" that so many cheap and tatty tv program makers find necessary these days to guarantee a 'lively' show. In my opinion, his presence there was a waste of his time and abilites.

Time-serving clerics - educated men - who know better, but who refuse to condem religious ideas that are outright wicked, are worse than the holders of those ideas. At least there is an excuse for the god-fodder - most are merely ignorant and brain-washed. It is hard to decide who deserves the most censure - the objectionable deluded simpletons, the smooth-talking professional deluders, or the "audience grabbing at any cost" BBC.

That bizzare character, the would-be Mayor of London (noooo fucking chance, by the way) had all the facile confidence that only the truly lost posess. But I must confess it would be fun to hear it announced on the six o'clock news that the Mayor of London is claiming hob-goblins are responsible for the increase in Community Charges!

The whole spectacle was painful to watch. Richard cannot possibly do justice to himself in a circus atmosphere. I seriously think he would do himself a favour by avoiding low-grade programs like this where there is no intention whatsoever of actually dealing with the 'Big Questions', and where the presenter keeps interrupting any answer after three seconds, just to ensure the camera keeps cutting back to his own friggin' face.

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41. Comment #157030 by Dr. Freeman on April 8, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Really how can some people be this deluded and still take themselves seriously?
This should have had Hitchens in stead of Dawkins. Dawkins is to polite. Hitchens would have butchered them.

Other Comments by Dr. Freeman

42. Comment #157037 by Partisan on April 8, 2008 at 1:55 pm

Richard - you're my hero, congratulations for cutting through the asinine bullshit on display and saying what had to be said.

Other Comments by Partisan

43. Comment #157049 by Clive on April 8, 2008 at 2:04 pm

Just remind me - is this the 21st century?

They didn't have TV cameras in the dark ages did they?

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44. Comment #157055 by captainjjb on April 8, 2008 at 2:09 pm

Can someone post an audio version?

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45. Comment #157060 by KiloDeltaYankee on April 8, 2008 at 2:15 pm

"The pilots who drove their planes into the Emprire State building." Where do they find these people...

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46. Comment #157065 by emmet on April 8, 2008 at 2:24 pm

Someone remind me again what century we're living in please!!!!

Well, we are living in the 21st century.

They have chosen to live bodily in the 21st century and intellectually somewhere between the bronze age and the mediæval period.

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47. Comment #157069 by Clive on April 8, 2008 at 2:30 pm

OK I've calmed down now.

We have "evil" in the world because nature is red in tooth and claw. We are somewhat civilised and our animal tendencies are largely a thing of the past for most of us most of the time.

Other Comments by Clive

48. Comment #157070 by Tom Coward on April 8, 2008 at 2:32 pm

I thought this was a marvelous program! The panel was diverse, perhaps even balanced. The nutters got show themselves for what they were, and the seculars were generally able to make their points clearly and calmly. And for an uninterrupted hour! Only in Britain! In the US this would have been a 7 minute shout-fest between professional talking heads, with victory to the loudest.

Having said this, is "Red Ken" Livingstone not standing for Mayor of London this time? And does the Xtian "give yourself to Jesus to protect you from the devil" have any chance at actually winning?

Other Comments by Tom Coward

49. Comment #157071 by xdrive on April 8, 2008 at 2:34 pm

That was just painful to watch. But it's nice to see we're not the only ones with wacko lunatics on debate shows.

I went through four different bullshit meters by the time that was over. Three alone during the "Hitler = evidence for the devil" part.

Hats off to Richard for not spontaneously combusting in front of everyone.

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50. Comment #157081 by alexmzk on April 8, 2008 at 2:40 pm

i actually saw this on telly the other morning. it seems they choose an audience who represent as many of the big Monotheisms as they can get (i noticed Sikhs, Pagans, Buddhists, Hindus and others were apparently absent, although i may have missed them). obviously most of these folk are pretty wacked-out.

what i find bad is that Prof. Dawkins seems to be becoming a symbol of almost universal mistrust among most theists and even a lot of atheists. there seems to have been a big trend in people imagining him to be a horrible person-eating atheist and as a consequence feeling they can disregard anything he says. every time he said something on that show, the studio went cold.

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