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The List: The World's Worst Religious Leaders
by Foreign Policy
Thanks to Logicel for the link.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4244
The List: The World's Worst Religious Leaders
When the Pope visits the United States next week, he will likely make the case that religion is a force for peace in the world. But a few of his fellow religious leaders are better known for preaching messages of hatred and violence.
Hassan Nasrallah
Religion: Shiite Islam
Who is he?: Secretary-General of Hezbollah
Country: Lebanon
Quote: "If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak, and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology, and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice I do not say the Israeli."
Why he matters: Nasrallah and several colleagues formed Hezbollah in the wake of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Since then, the group has become a unique entity in world politics—at once an Islamist political party, a terrorist militia, and a virtual state-within-a-state in southern Lebanon. Hezbollah's 2006 battle with the Israel Defense Forces only boosted its prestige. Nasrallah studied Islam at a seminary in Najaf, Iraq, as a teenager and follows the brand of Shiite Islam developed by Iran's late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. In recent years, as he has emerged as a major power broker within the Lebanese government, Nasrallah has stopped calling for an Islamic revolution and seems willing to work within the state. Nasrallah has not moderated his stance on Israel, though, and still calls for the "Zionist entity" to be wiped off the map.
Joseph Kony
Religion: Christianity/personality cult
Who is he?: Commander of the Lord's Resistance Army (LRA)
Country: Uganda
Quote: "[The spirits] speak to me. They load through me. They will tell us what is going to happen. They say 'You, Mr. Joseph, tell your people that the enemy is planning to come and attack.' They will come like dreaming; they will tell us everything."
Why he matters: During two decades of civil war, Kony's Lord's Resistance Army has killed more people than al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah combined. Kony, a former altar boy, aims to overthrow the Ugandan government and establish a regime based on the Ten Commandments. In pursuit of this goal, the LRA has abducted over 20,000 children to serve as soldiers and sex slaves, often forcing them to kill their own parents. Although Kony frequently uses biblical passages to justify his actions and has his child soldiers make the sign of the cross before battle, he mixes Christianity with mysticism and claims to be advised by a "spirit council" from beyond the grave. The LRA is currently in the process of negotiating a peace deal with the Ugandan government, but Kony is reluctant to leave his hide-out while under International Criminal Court indictment.
Yogi Adityanath
Religion: Hinduism
Who is he?: Religious leader and member of parliament from Uttar Pradesh, India's most populous province
Country: India
Quote: "I want Muslim votes, too. But wash them in Gangajal [Ganges water] first."
Why he matters: Adityanath is an up-and-comer in India's growing Hindutva—Hindu nationalist—movement. In addition to his membership in the nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), he is the founder of the Hindu Yuva Vahini, a radical Hindu youth movement that has been implicated in a number of incidents of anti-Muslim violence. In early 2007 he was arrested for his role in fomenting religious riots in the northern city of Gorakhpur. Yuva Vahini activists set fire to multiple vehicles including a train and an ambulance in response to his arrest. Adityanath has been released and remains in Parliament, where he is known for such publicity-seeking antics as breaking down in tears during speeches and making statements critical of Mahatma Gandhi. Adityanath's extreme views put him at odds with even the BJP, and he is now looking into starting his own party with a strictly Hindutva agenda.
Athuraliye Rathana
Religion: Theravada Buddhism
Who is he?: Monk and member of parliament
Country: Sri Lanka
Quote: "Peace negotiations simply made the LTTE [Tamil Tigers] stronger. We mustn't talk to them; we can crush the LTTE. It is like surgery."
Why he matters: Most people didn't take the Chinese government too seriously when it accused the Dalai Lama of inciting violence in Tibet, but it's actually not unheard of for Buddhist monks to forgo their traditional pacifism. Sri Lanka's Jathika Hela Urumaya (JHU) party is comprised entirely of Buddhist monks from the dominant Sinhalese ethnic group, and its seven members of parliament advocate a militant, ethnonationalist agenda. The party's leader, Athuraliye Rathana, has been nicknamed the "war monk" for his staunch advocacy of military force against the Tamil Tiger rebels who have fought a 25-year insurgency against the state. (For what it's worth, the Tigers exhibit some cultlike characteristics as well.) Athuraliye has worked to scuttle a Norwegian-brokered peace settlement, saying that the Tamils should be crushed militarily and that Sri Lanka has always been a Sinhalese kingdom. The JHU has also sponsored legislation in the Parliament that would ban Sri Lankan Buddhists from converting to Christianity.
Dov Lior
Religion: Hasidic Judaism
Who is he?: Head rabbi of Kiryat Arba settlement
Country: Israel
Quote: "A thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail."
Why he matters: Lior is the chief rabbi for Kiryat-Arba, a Jewish settlement near the turbulent West Bank town of Hebron, and leads the council of rabbis for the West Bank settlements. He has stated repeatedly that the killing of Palestinian civilians is compatible with Jewish law and that the commandment "thou shalt not kill"applies only to Jews. Rabbi Lior gave a eulogy at the funeral of Baruch Goldstein, the Jewish doctor who gunned down 29 Muslim worshippers at Hebron's Ibrahimi Mosque in 1994. Lior has also issued a religious ruling forbidding Jews from employing Arabs or renting them property.
* Click here to see our complete archive of FP Lists.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=4244
The List: The World's Worst Religious Leaders
When the Pope visits the United States next week, he will likely make the case that religion is a force for peace in the world. But a few of his fellow religious leaders are better known for preaching messages of hatred and violence.
Hassan Nasrallah
Religion: Shiite Islam
Who is he?: Secretary-General of Hezbollah
Country: Lebanon
Quote: "If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak, and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology, and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew. Notice I do not say the Israeli."
Why he matters: Nasrallah and several colleagues formed Hezbollah in the wake of Israel's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. Since then, the group has become a unique entity in world politics—at once an Islamist political party, a terrorist militia, and a virtual state-within-a-state in southern Lebanon. Hezbollah's 2006 battle with the Israel Defense Forces only boosted its prestige. Nasrallah studied Islam at a seminary in Najaf, Iraq, as a teenager and follows the brand of Shiite Islam developed by Iran's late Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. In recent years, as he has emerged as a major power broker within the Lebanese government, Nasrallah has stopped calling for an Islamic revolution and seems willing to work within the state. Nasrallah has not moderated his stance on Israel, though, and still calls for the "Zionist entity" to be wiped off the map.
Joseph Kony
Religion: Christianity/personality cult
Who is he?: Commander of the Lord's Resistance Army (LRA)
Country: Uganda
Quote: "[The spirits] speak to me. They load through me. They will tell us what is going to happen. They say 'You, Mr. Joseph, tell your people that the enemy is planning to come and attack.' They will come like dreaming; they will tell us everything."
Why he matters: During two decades of civil war, Kony's Lord's Resistance Army has killed more people than al Qaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah combined. Kony, a former altar boy, aims to overthrow the Ugandan government and establish a regime based on the Ten Commandments. In pursuit of this goal, the LRA has abducted over 20,000 children to serve as soldiers and sex slaves, often forcing them to kill their own parents. Although Kony frequently uses biblical passages to justify his actions and has his child soldiers make the sign of the cross before battle, he mixes Christianity with mysticism and claims to be advised by a "spirit council" from beyond the grave. The LRA is currently in the process of negotiating a peace deal with the Ugandan government, but Kony is reluctant to leave his hide-out while under International Criminal Court indictment.
Yogi Adityanath
Religion: Hinduism
Who is he?: Religious leader and member of parliament from Uttar Pradesh, India's most populous province
Country: India
Quote: "I want Muslim votes, too. But wash them in Gangajal [Ganges water] first."
Why he matters: Adityanath is an up-and-comer in India's growing Hindutva—Hindu nationalist—movement. In addition to his membership in the nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party (BJP), he is the founder of the Hindu Yuva Vahini, a radical Hindu youth movement that has been implicated in a number of incidents of anti-Muslim violence. In early 2007 he was arrested for his role in fomenting religious riots in the northern city of Gorakhpur. Yuva Vahini activists set fire to multiple vehicles including a train and an ambulance in response to his arrest. Adityanath has been released and remains in Parliament, where he is known for such publicity-seeking antics as breaking down in tears during speeches and making statements critical of Mahatma Gandhi. Adityanath's extreme views put him at odds with even the BJP, and he is now looking into starting his own party with a strictly Hindutva agenda.
Athuraliye Rathana
Religion: Theravada Buddhism
Who is he?: Monk and member of parliament
Country: Sri Lanka
Quote: "Peace negotiations simply made the LTTE [Tamil Tigers] stronger. We mustn't talk to them; we can crush the LTTE. It is like surgery."
Why he matters: Most people didn't take the Chinese government too seriously when it accused the Dalai Lama of inciting violence in Tibet, but it's actually not unheard of for Buddhist monks to forgo their traditional pacifism. Sri Lanka's Jathika Hela Urumaya (JHU) party is comprised entirely of Buddhist monks from the dominant Sinhalese ethnic group, and its seven members of parliament advocate a militant, ethnonationalist agenda. The party's leader, Athuraliye Rathana, has been nicknamed the "war monk" for his staunch advocacy of military force against the Tamil Tiger rebels who have fought a 25-year insurgency against the state. (For what it's worth, the Tigers exhibit some cultlike characteristics as well.) Athuraliye has worked to scuttle a Norwegian-brokered peace settlement, saying that the Tamils should be crushed militarily and that Sri Lanka has always been a Sinhalese kingdom. The JHU has also sponsored legislation in the Parliament that would ban Sri Lankan Buddhists from converting to Christianity.
Dov Lior
Religion: Hasidic Judaism
Who is he?: Head rabbi of Kiryat Arba settlement
Country: Israel
Quote: "A thousand non-Jewish lives are not worth a Jew's fingernail."
Why he matters: Lior is the chief rabbi for Kiryat-Arba, a Jewish settlement near the turbulent West Bank town of Hebron, and leads the council of rabbis for the West Bank settlements. He has stated repeatedly that the killing of Palestinian civilians is compatible with Jewish law and that the commandment "thou shalt not kill"applies only to Jews. Rabbi Lior gave a eulogy at the funeral of Baruch Goldstein, the Jewish doctor who gunned down 29 Muslim worshippers at Hebron's Ibrahimi Mosque in 1994. Lior has also issued a religious ruling forbidding Jews from employing Arabs or renting them property.
* Click here to see our complete archive of FP Lists.
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Posted: Friday, April 11, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 56 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #159051 by AnthSynthasome on April 11, 2008 at 11:31 am
Hitchen's subtitle seems appropriate here... Other Comments by AnthSynthasome
3. Comment #159052 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 11:31 am
Except perhaps for Nasrallah, they are all nobodies with only limited, local influences.These are mostly politicians,-- at least one is a cult leader,-- caught up in local conflicts rather than religious leaders proper.
If they are somehow used as representatives of religion then indeed most believers can justifiably say "these are not our gods".
I wonder who came up with a list like this. I sense that it is probably more about political axe grinding than anything else. It may not be an accident that Nasrallah tops the list and he happens to be the only person on the list who has some international recognition.
Other Comments by Bonzai
4. Comment #159053 by Animavore on April 11, 2008 at 11:32 am
Where's Dawkins?
C'mon Prof. You're not trying hard enough.
Other Comments by Animavore
5. Comment #159056 by yussel123 on April 11, 2008 at 11:38 am
With regard to Dov Lior:I doubt he is Hassidic. Chassidim in general are hostile to the founding of the State of Israel and don't generally move to the West Bank. He is part of the Religious Zionist movement, which is poles apart from Chassidism
Other Comments by yussel123
6. Comment #159062 by Bigorra on April 11, 2008 at 11:49 am
The loonies have been spotted! Other Comments by Bigorra
7. Comment #159086 by Shaden on April 11, 2008 at 12:28 pm
I was looking for Pat Robertson, he would fit right in. Other Comments by Shaden
8. Comment #159094 by EvidenceOnly on April 11, 2008 at 12:33 pm
The pope should be on this list for the following reason:According to http://www.avert.org/aids-africa-questions-1.htm, 1.6 million people died of AIDS in Africa in 2007.
This is the equivalent of 1.5 NINE-ELEVENS per day, every day for years gone by and years to come!
A very large number of this could have been prevented by encouraging people to use condoms.
Yet, the Catholic church (and the Bush administration) will only allow for education of abstinence since condoms go against their religious beliefs.
Some bishops in Africa use fear tactics to scare people away from condoms. They claim that condoms are infected by the West to kill Africans.
Let's measure the badness of all leaders in how many 9/11s they directly or indirectly cause.
Other Comments by EvidenceOnly
9. Comment #159101 by Tyler Durden on April 11, 2008 at 12:41 pm
I was looking for David Robertson, he would fit right in. Other Comments by Tyler Durden
10. Comment #159118 by black wolf on April 11, 2008 at 1:11 pm
EvidenceOnly,adding to your post, it's not only bishops lying, scaring and commanding people away from contraception, there are at least two African cardinals in that line as well. Cardinals are direct subordinates of the Pope. I havent heard that they've even been admonished in the slightest bit by the Vatican.
Japanese CEOs have apologized under tears for incompetent and fraudulent behavior of subordinates.
Governors have resigned over revealed corruption in their administration.
Entire boards of executives of non-profit charities have stepped down from office over solicitation scandals.
From the Vatican: Silence. Crickets chirping. Rolling bushes.
This is the greatest imaginable Fuck You to humanity. EVER.
Other Comments by black wolf
11. Comment #159165 by Raiko on April 11, 2008 at 2:20 pm
Out of curiosity, who's the worst atheist leader we know? Other Comments by Raiko
12. Comment #159169 by Prankster on April 11, 2008 at 2:26 pm
RaikoCould be anyone living or dead as long as we don't mention Stalin or Hitler or Mao
Can't find old Joe Ratzinger in here though so the list must be wrong surely?
Other Comments by Prankster
13. Comment #159176 by Pattern Seeker on April 11, 2008 at 2:33 pm
They forgot to mention-Joseph Kony is also the inventor of the 'Kony Dog,' a delicious Ugandan snack filled with hatred and nonsense. Deep fried in tasty lies and covered with their enemies blood. Try One!
Other Comments by Pattern Seeker
14. Comment #159180 by robotaholic on April 11, 2008 at 2:35 pm
These people don't even sound like humans. Other Comments by robotaholic
15. Comment #159197 by JammyB on April 11, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Let's not forget that the current Pope has PERSONALLY and by his own hand helped to cover up the rape of small children of the congregation. Even the most fundie Christian should be putting him up on this list.Other Comments by JammyB
16. Comment #159214 by babrock on April 11, 2008 at 4:58 pm
EvidenceOnly gave some staggering statistics. My initial responce was to agree w/ him/her totaly on t pope beig singularly guilty. I then got to thinking tho, that those same excact restrictions also come from just about every muslim leader don't they? I donot know hindus take on birth control. I think fundemental judeism is also probably as restrictive, tho on that am only speculating.Not that this lets him off t hook at all. It only makes him not as singularly guilty, esp w/ t recent news that islam has surpassed catholisism in # of devotees.
Other Comments by babrock
17. Comment #159219 by cam9976 on April 11, 2008 at 5:11 pm
The author forgot that Stalin and Mao's brand of communism was highly religious in nature and that Hitler established a quasi state religion of Catholic mysticism and occultism in Germany. Other Comments by cam9976
18. Comment #159238 by MaxD on April 11, 2008 at 5:56 pm
I would at least like to see David Miscavige on the list as like a lesser villain.
Here is why I think that would be good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIdef3TEE40&feature=related
and Go here
http://www.xenutv.com/index.html
and Watch the video Onward
Tom Cruise can join him on the list!
http://gawker.com/5002269/the-cruise-indoctrination-video-scientology-tried-to-suppress
Other Comments by MaxD
19. Comment #159246 by Hostile2012 on April 11, 2008 at 6:22 pm
How about L Ron hubbard (I don't care about spelling). he led the biggest breach in government security and started the worst cult in modern times.Other Comments by Hostile2012
20. Comment #159263 by leviticus on April 11, 2008 at 7:30 pm
Bonzai your comments sound like nothing other then classic religious apologetic rhetoric. First play down the importance of the people or events that could look bad for religion then distance religion from these people by saying things likeIf they are somehow used as representatives of religion then indeed most believers can justifiably say "these are not our gods".
Also I can't believe that you can downplay the importance of a person like Joseph Kony as a "nobody" of little importance with a limited local influence as if the murder of at least 100,000 people is no big deal and the abductions of over 60,000 children to turn into soldiers and sex-slaves is unimportant. And I also suppose that: The Taiping Rebellion, The Mountain Meadows Massacre, The Thirty Years War, The Spanish Inquisition, St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre, and the Crusades were all also "not in the name of your gods".
I also agree with Shaden Pat Robertson would make a strong candidate for this list.
Other Comments by leviticus
21. Comment #159264 by atheist_peace on April 11, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Where's the Dalai Lama? And Mother Teresa? Other Comments by atheist_peace
22. Comment #159267 by discipline on April 11, 2008 at 7:54 pm
Where the hell is James Dobson on this list?He's the extreme right-wing Christian fascist homophobe who advocates beating children into submission.
Oh, and his organization has 2 million members and his media outlets reach over 200 million people per day:
http://www.slate.com/id/2109621/
http://www.pfaw.org/pfaw/general/default.aspx?oid=4257
And he enthusiastically endorses Expelled, of course:
http://listen.family.org/miscdaily/A000001036.cfm
He's the worst of the worst (in the US at least).
Other Comments by discipline
23. Comment #159272 by dragonfirematrix on April 11, 2008 at 8:13 pm
Wow! It seems many are getting into so much detail.There really is nothing to debate. Religion is the problem, not part of any solution.
Other Comments by dragonfirematrix
24. Comment #159281 by Koreman on April 11, 2008 at 9:02 pm
Fine examples of Pavlov's operant conditioning in reality.It is amazing what people are capable of, only to be rewarded by an invisible wizard from nowhere and never, who made up the entire universe -except himself and his habitat-, to satisfy his own primitive human instincts.
Other Comments by Koreman
25. Comment #159283 by ZekeCDN on April 11, 2008 at 9:15 pm
I would at least like to see David Miscavige on the list as like a lesser villain.
I'll second that. I was researching his "crimes" before I'd ever even heard of Intelligent Design.
Other Comments by ZekeCDN
26. Comment #159284 by Russell Blackford on April 11, 2008 at 9:21 pm
Funny, you know. I can be all calm and tranquil, and then I read something about the latest sactimonious rubbish uttered by the grand poobah of the cult of misery ... and I feel my blood pressure go up. I must go and indulge in some deadly sins and calm down again. The only one I'm really up to, these days, is gluttony, so it'll have to do. Just as well we have guests coming around for dinner.Other Comments by Russell Blackford
27. Comment #159287 by Edanator on April 11, 2008 at 9:29 pm
These are "just" examples of madmen, one from each of the five world religions. What's disturbing with this article is that the Christian madman is the only one that gets dismissed as not practicing true faith."Although Kony frequently uses biblical passages to justify his actions and has his child soldiers make the sign of the cross before battle, he mixes Christianity with mysticism and claims to be advised by a "spirit council" from beyond the grave."
I'm sure religious leaders of all the other faiths could make similar claims of "their" madmen, but their objections are not heard. Bias?
Other Comments by Edanator
28. Comment #159296 by _riverrun_ on April 11, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Ugly and despicable people no doubt! But, and I say this as an atheist, secular state worship of the Harris / Hitchens kind has led to far more deaths than any of these individuals could hope to achieve. By constraining and framing the issue within such narrow terms, Foreign Policy Magazine(consciously or not) fulfills its typical criterion of condemning foreign crimes, whilst ignoring ones closer to home.Other Comments by _riverrun_
29. Comment #159360 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 2:49 am
RaikoOut of curiosity, who's the worst atheist leader we know?That was tongue in cheek, right? There cannot be an "atheist leader" in same sense as there are "religious leaders".
Other Comments by Peacebeuponme
30. Comment #159361 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 2:52 am
Comment #159360 by PeacebeuponmeSorry to be provocative, but why not?
Other Comments by Steve Zara
31. Comment #159365 by epeeist on April 12, 2008 at 3:02 am
Comment #159281 by KoremanI didn't think Pavlov used operant conditioning. Wasn't that brought in later by the likes of Watson and Skinner?
Fine examples of Pavlov's operant conditioning in reality.
Other Comments by epeeist
32. Comment #159366 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 3:03 am
SteveSorry to be provocative, but why not?By "relgious leader" we mean people like the Pope or Rabbis, Bishops and Imams. They speak on behalf of their religous community and in accordance with whichever religious text they subscribe to. I can't see that there can be an atheist equivalent.
Richard may speak about atheism, but he is in no way a leader of atheists. Can you think of anybody who could possily be called that? By what process would they be appointed, and what values would they promote?
I think the minute there is an "atheist leader" we lose the argument that atheism is not a belief system.
Other Comments by Peacebeuponme
33. Comment #159367 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 3:07 am
Comment #159366 by PeacebeuponmeBy "relgious leader" we mean people like the Pope or Rabbis, Bishops and Imams. They speak on behalf of their religous community and in accordance with whichever religious text they subscribe to. I can't see that there can be an atheist equivalent.
I can. Atheism is a point of view. People with that point of view are being oppressed in some places. I think it may be a good idea to have people who are respected stand up and speak for the rights of atheists to be atheist.
I think the minute there is an "atheist leader" we lose the argument that atheism is not a belief system.
You don't need a belief system for a leader. Just a point of view, and the wish to have someone else help represent that point of view, or campaign to have that point of view respected.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
34. Comment #159368 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 3:20 am
SteveYou don't need a belief system for a leader. Just a point of view, and the wish to have someone else help represent that point of view, or campaign to have that point of view respected.Yes, but I don't see that as being the same as the context in which we use "religious leader".
If some atheists are campaigning for anything as a group, it would be an end to religious special treatment and influence politically and socially. That is wider than what it means to be an atheist. Religious people can be secular. So I would not want to call anybody who campaigns on my behalf on that front an "atheist leader".
Other Comments by Peacebeuponme
35. Comment #159369 by epeeist on April 12, 2008 at 3:22 am
Comment #159366 by PeacebeuponmeBut they don't represent their religious community, they represent the particular deity they subscribe to. The religious community simply follows on.
By "relgious leader" we mean people like the Pope or Rabbis, Bishops and Imams. They speak on behalf of their religous community and in accordance with whichever religious text they subscribe to. I can't see that there can be an atheist equivalent.
We don't have this kind of split. If there was some kind of atheist organisation it would be more like a political party.
Other Comments by epeeist
36. Comment #159370 by Geoff on April 12, 2008 at 3:30 am
Am I the only one to be surprised to see a Buddhist in the list?Steve, I'm with Peacebeuponme on the "atheist leader" topic. Sure, people like Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens can and do speak up on behalf of atheists, but that doesn't make them leaders. Do we follow their "orders" in the same way that, say, catholics [are supposed to] obey the pope?
Other Comments by Geoff
37. Comment #159372 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 3:31 am
EpeeistIf there was some kind of atheist organisation it would be more like a political party.Well, we have the National Secular Society.
Reading Steve's post and thinking about it a bit more, I'm starting to come round to his view, but its all about context. A leader in that sense would not be the same as a muslim leader, for example, who can issue a fatwa. I just feel uncomfortable with the phrase like "atheist leader", especially with all the theists who come on here and talk about "your prophet Dawkins".
Other Comments by Peacebeuponme
38. Comment #159374 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 3:43 am
Comment #159372 by PeacebeuponmeI just feel uncomfortable with the phrase like "atheist leader", especially with all the theists who come on here and talk about "your prophet Dawkins".
I feel a bit uncomfortable too, but I also feel we should not allow what we do or say to be restricted by theists.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
39. Comment #159375 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 3:46 am
Comment #159370 by Geoff Steve, I'm with Peacebeuponme on the "atheist leader" topic. Sure, people like Dawkins, Harris, Hitchens can and do speak up on behalf of atheists, but that doesn't make them leaders. Do we follow their "orders" in the same way that, say, catholics [are supposed to] obey the pope?
I didn't mean to imply that they were leaders, just that it might be useful to have leaders. Also, leadership does not have to be dictatorial. If Richard posted here that he had managed to arrange some kind of campaign, and it would be good if as many people as possible turned up at a certain venue, that would be leadership in my view.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
40. Comment #159382 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 4:01 am
SteveIf Richard posted here that he had managed to arrange some kind of campaign, and it would be good if as many people as possible turned up at a certain venue, that would be leadership in my view.Certainly that kind of action would be classed as evidence of 'leadership', and assist with progression, where I work!
You wouldn't have to call him an atheist leader though would you? If he started the campaign X, he would just be "Leader of the X movement". This would distinguish atheist followers of X from atheists who do not follow X.
Other Comments by Peacebeuponme
41. Comment #159383 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 4:03 am
SteveI feel a bit uncomfortable too, but I also feel we should not allow what we do or say to be restricted by theists.Agreed. But we can restrict ourselves if we think it will help matters.
Other Comments by Peacebeuponme
42. Comment #159384 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 4:15 am
Comment #159382 by PeacebeuponmeYou wouldn't have to call him an atheist leader though would you? If he started the campaign X, he would just be "Leader of the X movement". This would distinguish atheist followers of X from atheists who do not follow X.
This seems a bit evasive to me. It would be like calling the leader of the Democratic party the "leader of the movement to allow for Democratic views".
Other Comments by Steve Zara
43. Comment #159386 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 4:29 am
SteveThis seems a bit evasive to me. It would be like calling the leader of the Democratic party the "leader of the movement to allow for Democratic views".This comess the crux of what I am saying. The leader of the Democractic Party pushes for the views of democrats as clearly defined by their by-laws and manifesto. Where is the clearly defined set of atheist values that an atheist leader can campaign for?
It we want secularism, then let's get behind a Secularist Leader. I'd sign up to that. But don't give me an Atheist Leader who is going to campaign around all sorts of things, over and and above the simple statement that one lacks belief in gods, that not all atheists may agree with.
Other Comments by Peacebeuponme
44. Comment #159390 by Geoff on April 12, 2008 at 4:40 am
Steve, I'd be happy using the word "organiser", perhaps, for your example, but in my view a leader implies followers; that brings us back to the "herding cats" analogy.I enjoy and agree with most of what Richard says/writes, but I don't consider myself a follower of his, any more than I'm a follower of Tolkien, Sagan, Clapton, Python, whatever.
Other Comments by Geoff
45. Comment #159393 by Logicel on April 12, 2008 at 4:52 am
This list is comprised only of living religious leaders so Hubbard (Miscavige should be on this list instead) or Mother Teresa would not qualify. Anyway it's way too short as there are enough to make a list of ten at the very least. The Merchant of Misery (known to his idiot legions of Catholics as the Pope) deserves top position on this list. The reason he is not given this position is because in addition to the compilers of this list only focusing on religious nuts outside of America/Europe (probably why Miscavige or Warren Jeffs are not on this list), so called mainstream religion still gets the respect it does not deserve. The day when the Pope makes the list, then we can recognize the reality that religion no longer can demand unwarranted respect.
Other Comments by Logicel
46. Comment #159409 by MakingBelieve on April 12, 2008 at 6:06 am
On the question of "atheist leaders", I consider Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins, Dennett to be representative, de-facto leaders. To the extent that their views condense and articulate the views and arguments of many non-believers, they represent that community to a world-wide audience.They have attained their positions by a process of public acclaim (largely due to book sales) - they have not been elected and there is no organizational structure, membership, etc.
Instead, rational non-believers have finally found these bold public voices that seem to resonate with their own perspectives. Were they to significantly diverge from this resonance, they would be dropped and marginalized very quickly.
As a practical matter, not every non-believer will be invited to appear in the press or media - nor should they. The horsemen are leaders in the sense that they are in the media, they have cogent, well-articulated views that a significant population of like-minded thinkers hold and they are legitimizing those views forcefully against a repressive religion-soaked world.
That's the most credit-worthy kind of leadership to my mind.
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47. Comment #159443 by bluebird on April 12, 2008 at 7:55 am
Dark cloud on the horizen...
The Pope in this photo looks like a demented cowboy fixin' to herd his flock back to the Double-C ranch.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1727724,00.html
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48. Comment #159449 by Philip1978 on April 12, 2008 at 8:09 am
BluebirdThats no 10 Gallon thats for sure, from what I understand of the origins of the famous cowboy hat it might come from the Spanish, tan galan, "so gallant", the pope is the least gallant human being I know of!
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49. Comment #159459 by liberalartist on April 12, 2008 at 8:28 am
me thinks this writer be a christian... Other Comments by liberalartist
50. Comment #159470 by soul_biscuit on April 12, 2008 at 8:53 am
"Fine examples of Pavlov's operant conditioning in reality."
Pavlov was responsible for classical conditioning. Operant conditioning was first worked out by B.F. Skinner.
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1. Comment #159047 by Janus on April 11, 2008 at 11:25 am
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