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For sale: 13-year-old virgin
by Telegraph
Thanks to DoctorE for the link.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/13/wvirgin113.xml
For sale: 13-year-old virgin
By Sue Ryan in Bharatpur
A mile beyond the town of Bharatpur in Rajasthan, where the highway is being widened to four lanes, traffic slows down for roadworks. But the workmen who lounge by their bulldozers have their eyes on something else - a cluster of makeshift shelters where girls, several under 18 and at least two younger than 15, can be seen strolling or sitting, in view of the dusty carriageway.
Tonight, one girl in particular is attracting attention as she sits on a stool by a fire so that she can be seen by passing vehicles. Her heavily made-up, striking face and beautiful pink sari make her look as if she were on her way to a party. But the truth is different. Suli, 14, is a virgin and a bidding war is being held for the right to be the first to sleep with her.
The collection of shelters where she lives houses 59 families, all members of the Bedia tribe, which has a long tradition of caste-based prostitution. Girls born here become prostitutes in a rite of passage into "adulthood" as routine as marriage is to the rest of Indian society.
The "first time" is a valued commodity for which the middle-class businessmen who pass this way are prepared to pay a premium.
The normal rate is 100 rupees (£1.30) but a virgin is sold to the highest bidder for anything over 20,000 rupees. If she is very pretty, the community would hope to get up to 40,000 rupees. For this, the man can have access to the girl for as long as he likes - several hours, days, or even weeks. When he tires of her, there is a celebration. Because it is considered unlucky for a girl to keep the money from her first time, it is spent instead on an extravagant party. Jewellery is bought for her and for her relatives, goats are slaughtered and alcohol runs freely. There is dancing, and offerings are made to the gods.
Once a girl has lost her virginity she cannot marry. The choice has been made and the community celebrates it - this is her non-wedding night.
Suli said she was happy to enter the trade. "I chose it," she said, though she admitted being "a little" frightened. "I do not know how it is going to be. I know other girls who are in the trade but I have not asked them how it is."
She claimed it did not matter what the man looked like. "I will go with whoever pays the highest price," she said, before running off as her mother called her for supper.
Nita, a virgin in the hut next door, has four sisters, all prostitutes. She wears jeans and a skimpy top, and giggles a lot. One sister boasts that as Nita is particularly pretty, they hope to get 40,000 rupees (£600). "We have been offered 25,000, but it is not enough."
Nita is only 13 but has opted to follow her sisters into the trade. It is her own "choice", because, she giggled, "I won't have to do any housework."
But in avoiding making chapatis, Nita has signed up to a life in which she will deal with 20 to 30 clients per day, until she reaches her forties. After that, when she is no longer considered desirable, she will depend on any children she may have for support.
Two of her sisters, Ritu, 35, and Manju, 25, have built one of the few stone houses in their village, for which they paid the equivalent of £14,600, and are proud of their success. "There was a lot of poverty, we had nothing to eat," said Manju. "What you see now has come with hard work." They support 50 family members - 35 children and 15 adults.
Elsewhere in India, the birth of a boy is celebrated with dowries paid by the bride's family, one of the reasons given for the high abortion rate for female foetuses. But in the villages around Bharatpur there is a shortage of girls to marry, and the custom is for the boy's family to pay the girl's family a large lump sum before the wedding can take place.
Possibly because the money comes from prostitution, and because any granddaughters will be destined for the trade, the sums are high.
Ritu and Manju paid for four of their five brothers to marry, and now support their sisters-in-law, nieces and nephews.
They earn between 1,000 and 1,500 rupees a day. It was more before the government knocked down their shelters to make room for the highway.
"We need a shelter by the road," they said. "Tell the government to build us somewhere we can work. We used to have 25 or 30 clients a day, now the average is 10 or 15." They said they were able to keep their rates up because they could provide a nice room and running water for their clients, who are mostly married businessmen from Agra.
The prevalence of caste-based prostitution in certain tribes in the region - the Bawaria, Nuts, Bedias, Kanjars and Sansis - came to light after a raid on a brothel in Delhi. Now an attempt is being made to break the cycle by which the girls of each generation enter the trade.
Dr KK Mukerjee, a social work professor at the University of Delhi, who was commissioned by the government to research the scope of prostitution, has founded a group, known as GNK. Supported by Plan International, a child-centred community development agency, the organisation has set up a hostel to look after prostitutes' children.
Many of the women said they did not wish their daughters to follow them into the trade. Ritu and Manju each have a daughter, whose fathers were clients. "My daughter will get educated, and not enter this profession," said Ritu. "I have seen what it is like. I don't want it for her."
A young boy at the hostel told proudly how he had persuaded his grandmother not to push his aunt into prostitution. "My grandmother said that she would kill herself if my aunt did not go into the trade and earn money," he said. "But I persuaded her, and my aunt got married."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/13/wvirgin113.xml
For sale: 13-year-old virgin
By Sue Ryan in Bharatpur
A mile beyond the town of Bharatpur in Rajasthan, where the highway is being widened to four lanes, traffic slows down for roadworks. But the workmen who lounge by their bulldozers have their eyes on something else - a cluster of makeshift shelters where girls, several under 18 and at least two younger than 15, can be seen strolling or sitting, in view of the dusty carriageway.
Tonight, one girl in particular is attracting attention as she sits on a stool by a fire so that she can be seen by passing vehicles. Her heavily made-up, striking face and beautiful pink sari make her look as if she were on her way to a party. But the truth is different. Suli, 14, is a virgin and a bidding war is being held for the right to be the first to sleep with her.
The collection of shelters where she lives houses 59 families, all members of the Bedia tribe, which has a long tradition of caste-based prostitution. Girls born here become prostitutes in a rite of passage into "adulthood" as routine as marriage is to the rest of Indian society.
The "first time" is a valued commodity for which the middle-class businessmen who pass this way are prepared to pay a premium.
The normal rate is 100 rupees (£1.30) but a virgin is sold to the highest bidder for anything over 20,000 rupees. If she is very pretty, the community would hope to get up to 40,000 rupees. For this, the man can have access to the girl for as long as he likes - several hours, days, or even weeks. When he tires of her, there is a celebration. Because it is considered unlucky for a girl to keep the money from her first time, it is spent instead on an extravagant party. Jewellery is bought for her and for her relatives, goats are slaughtered and alcohol runs freely. There is dancing, and offerings are made to the gods.
Once a girl has lost her virginity she cannot marry. The choice has been made and the community celebrates it - this is her non-wedding night.
Suli said she was happy to enter the trade. "I chose it," she said, though she admitted being "a little" frightened. "I do not know how it is going to be. I know other girls who are in the trade but I have not asked them how it is."
She claimed it did not matter what the man looked like. "I will go with whoever pays the highest price," she said, before running off as her mother called her for supper.
Nita, a virgin in the hut next door, has four sisters, all prostitutes. She wears jeans and a skimpy top, and giggles a lot. One sister boasts that as Nita is particularly pretty, they hope to get 40,000 rupees (£600). "We have been offered 25,000, but it is not enough."
Nita is only 13 but has opted to follow her sisters into the trade. It is her own "choice", because, she giggled, "I won't have to do any housework."
But in avoiding making chapatis, Nita has signed up to a life in which she will deal with 20 to 30 clients per day, until she reaches her forties. After that, when she is no longer considered desirable, she will depend on any children she may have for support.
Two of her sisters, Ritu, 35, and Manju, 25, have built one of the few stone houses in their village, for which they paid the equivalent of £14,600, and are proud of their success. "There was a lot of poverty, we had nothing to eat," said Manju. "What you see now has come with hard work." They support 50 family members - 35 children and 15 adults.
Elsewhere in India, the birth of a boy is celebrated with dowries paid by the bride's family, one of the reasons given for the high abortion rate for female foetuses. But in the villages around Bharatpur there is a shortage of girls to marry, and the custom is for the boy's family to pay the girl's family a large lump sum before the wedding can take place.
Possibly because the money comes from prostitution, and because any granddaughters will be destined for the trade, the sums are high.
Ritu and Manju paid for four of their five brothers to marry, and now support their sisters-in-law, nieces and nephews.
They earn between 1,000 and 1,500 rupees a day. It was more before the government knocked down their shelters to make room for the highway.
"We need a shelter by the road," they said. "Tell the government to build us somewhere we can work. We used to have 25 or 30 clients a day, now the average is 10 or 15." They said they were able to keep their rates up because they could provide a nice room and running water for their clients, who are mostly married businessmen from Agra.
The prevalence of caste-based prostitution in certain tribes in the region - the Bawaria, Nuts, Bedias, Kanjars and Sansis - came to light after a raid on a brothel in Delhi. Now an attempt is being made to break the cycle by which the girls of each generation enter the trade.
Dr KK Mukerjee, a social work professor at the University of Delhi, who was commissioned by the government to research the scope of prostitution, has founded a group, known as GNK. Supported by Plan International, a child-centred community development agency, the organisation has set up a hostel to look after prostitutes' children.
Many of the women said they did not wish their daughters to follow them into the trade. Ritu and Manju each have a daughter, whose fathers were clients. "My daughter will get educated, and not enter this profession," said Ritu. "I have seen what it is like. I don't want it for her."
A young boy at the hostel told proudly how he had persuaded his grandmother not to push his aunt into prostitution. "My grandmother said that she would kill herself if my aunt did not go into the trade and earn money," he said. "But I persuaded her, and my aunt got married."
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Posted: Monday, April 14, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 223 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #160693 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 9:36 am
An 8 year old in Yemen just sought a divorce from her husband, who beat her and forced her to have sex.
This seems to be the norm.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
3. Comment #160695 by aznxscorpion517 on April 14, 2008 at 9:39 am
And people complain about China and their human rights? They boycott the damn Olympics? They need to look elsewhere for things to protest. Other Comments by aznxscorpion517
4. Comment #160696 by Barbara on April 14, 2008 at 9:43 am
Nita is only 13 but has opted to follow her sisters into the trade. It is her own "choice", because, she giggles, "I won't have to do any housework."
In time, I suspect Nita will probably wish she had opted to sweep floors and scrub toilets instead.
This article left me nauseated.
Other Comments by Barbara
5. Comment #160708 by DoctorE on April 14, 2008 at 10:02 am
Those people accept this as normal, from birth this is the way to go.
Naturally religion wants kids to mold them in whatever drones they want. Thats why Jesus want's the kids... here i go again on chrisitanity :)
Other Comments by DoctorE
6. Comment #160718 by liddlefeesh on April 14, 2008 at 10:11 am
Does Rajasthan not have child protection laws or protection for these children?
Aren't there any charities providing education to these "communities"?
Does anyone with a Wikipedia account fancy drawing attention to this practice on the Ragasthan entry? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rajasthan
edit: I've added a link to this article on their page, but I can't edit the main content. Anyone?
Other Comments by liddlefeesh
7. Comment #160719 by Linda on April 14, 2008 at 10:11 am
The plight of women in India is a life of unimaginable misery.My husband and I are recently returned from traveling in northern India. Throughout our trip we questioned many men about their marriages. We asked them when they first met their wives. The answers either were a. at the wedding or b. a few days or once or twice before the wedding. Women were not attending to us so it was quite difficult to get a female point of view. At Ranakpur I did engage the daughter of a Jain priest asking about her life and marriage. She accepted without question that her father would arrange a future marriage, which would mean she would have to leave her family and community. That is another aspect of the arrangement. In order to prevent inbreeding distant partners are sought. This tends to isolate family members as traveling even 50 miles is quite out of the question for most poor people. We also noticed the profuse want-ad columns in newspapers posted by parents seeking marriage partners for their children. One column was headed 'Disabilities'. The one listing that caught our attention was by parents of a doctor daughter who was described as less than perfect due to one hand being smaller than the other.
Arranged marriages are common throughout the country and are not an aberration of rural regions. The men we spoke to scorned our Western ways of self-selecting marital partners without the interference of parents as the root cause of divorce here. That attitude seemed somewhat dishonest, as the abuse of females, adults and children, is considered normal there. They are traded like farm animals and treated no better.
Yes India may be changing however at this time it seems that what is needed is a complete mindset re-vamp as the lack of social awareness, human rights, dignity and equality within the culture are stumbling blocks to progress.
Other Comments by Linda
8. Comment #160723 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on April 14, 2008 at 10:19 am
Castes are common throughout the world and throughout history. The problems will only ever start to be tackled when the poisonous doctrine of multiculturalism dies a very belated death.Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
9. Comment #160728 by DamnDirtyApe on April 14, 2008 at 10:23 am
I found myself thinking of Memoirs of a Geisha. Only this is even creepier. And in the present day.Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
10. Comment #160734 by Madmaili on April 14, 2008 at 10:31 am
I'm having a hard time believing this is real.The Saddest part of it all is that the girls have been conditioned to accept this lifestyle and even bee proud of it.Other Comments by Madmaili
11. Comment #160741 by MaxD on April 14, 2008 at 10:47 am
A couple of friends of mine who were stationed in Afghanistan actually were part of a hunt for a gang of men who raped young women so they could get a better price for them later. Virgin's were more expensive.
This was causing a bit of unrest in the community. So they asked the US to do something about it. I doubt that unrest was primarily a result of the pain fathers felt for their daughters or anything having much to do with empathy. I'd like to think I was wrong though.
Enlightened eh?
Other Comments by MaxD
12. Comment #160754 by Vaal on April 14, 2008 at 11:16 am
2. Comment #160693 by al-rawandi An 8 year old in Yemen just sought a divorce from her husband, who beat her and forced her to have sex
Al, Surely he was only following the example of his prophet?
Other Comments by Vaal
13. Comment #160764 by DamnDirtyApe on April 14, 2008 at 11:25 am
That's pretty fucking sick Max...Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
14. Comment #160779 by 82abhilash on April 14, 2008 at 11:39 am
The only thing I find wrong with this picture is that the most of the girls have not yet attained majority. If they had I would have said their body, their choice and left it at that.Other Comments by 82abhilash
15. Comment #160780 by Naturalist1 on April 14, 2008 at 11:41 am
Hello ThoughsonCommonToad...my name is Darrell. Could you please explain further what you mean't by:
The problems will only ever start to be tackled when the poisonous doctrine of multiculturalism dies a very belated death.
We in Canada work from a certain understanding of multiculturalism..was wondering how your comment relates to the story.
Thanks
Other Comments by Naturalist1
16. Comment #160783 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 11:41 am
Vaal,
Something like that. The girl was forced by family into the marriage.
http://www.mideastyouth.com/2008/04/12/8-year-old-yemeni-girl-seeks-divorce/
http://yementimes.com/article.shtml?i=1145&p=front&a=2
She wanted to play in the yard, but the man made her go up to the bedroom with him. How absolutely revolting.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
17. Comment #160787 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 11:45 am
Vaal,
Khomeini ruled in his Tahriro Vasyleh, that a man may have sex with a girl once she was no longer Radi'yya which is easily translated as "Breast feeding". He said vaginal intercourse is prohibited until the age of 9, but sodomy was permitted, as was fondling. Fondling in Islamic law includes rubbing the penis between the thighs. The Prophet Muhammad was said to have been givent he libido of 30 men, and taste of a man with a windowless van with the words "Free Candy" spray painted on the sides.
How about that to turn your stomach.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
18. Comment #160789 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on April 14, 2008 at 11:47 am
Naturalist1 aka Darrell. I think this article illustrates my pointhttp://www.richarddawkins.net/article,2247,Why-multiculturalism-must-be-abandoned,Johann-Hari
In short merely that diversity is not something to be preserved or respected when it violates basic human rights. "But its your tradition".
Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
19. Comment #160790 by Vaal on April 14, 2008 at 11:48 am
Man, some people should NEVER be allowed to be parents. Have they got some mental disorder?Al, does it really say that? How do the apologists get away with that filth?
Other Comments by Vaal
20. Comment #160796 by kaiserkriss on April 14, 2008 at 11:51 am
DISGUSTING!!
This is child abuse of the first order. If the girls were over the age of majority, it would still be sad, however since they are still minors, the perpetrators ( parents and customers) should be prosecuted.
Family tradition, BULLSHIT!! My ancestors were "robber barons" a few hundred years ago, who demanded a fee for passing safely over their lands, as well as the rights to the "first night" of any of their serfs.
Well, I want to restart the family business / tradition. Somehow I don't think (rightly so) I would get too far with this line of business.
The zeitgeist has left such barbaric behavior behind, and any one saying differently should have their mental faculties and morals examined, and shown with out a doubt civilized society does no longer condone such actions. jcw
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
21. Comment #160838 by Koreman on April 14, 2008 at 1:05 pm
@6. Comment #160718 by liddlefeeshIn the West it might look like 2008, but in some parts of the world it's still the 19th century. Or earlier.
Other Comments by Koreman
22. Comment #160842 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 1:10 pm
Vaal,
The consumation (marrying) age for a "woman" in Iran is 9 years old. Shi'a Jurisprudence is beyond strange. They have temporary marriage, where a dowry is given and a marriage is performed lasting from one day to 100 years... And you guessed it, people are using it as a means of prostitution.
There is another bit, where once you divorce your wife, to take her back she has to be with another man, and there has to be a witness and it cannot be the former husband. So a man is hired to hide under the bed during coitus.
Religion never ceases to amaze. And Allah is all knowing and all seeing.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
23. Comment #160844 by Henri Bergson on April 14, 2008 at 1:22 pm
You commentators here are being very naive: you cannot judge another culture from your own culture's perspective.'Human rights' is just a western notion that, like 'God', cannot be proven.
In other words, you're all acting like frenzied religious nutcases pushing your unjustified perspective on others.
Other Comments by Henri Bergson
24. Comment #160851 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on April 14, 2008 at 1:28 pm
You commentators here are being very naïve: you cannot judge another culture from your own culture's perspective.
'Human rights' is just a western notion that, like 'God', cannot be proven.
If our western god-like notions, and our white male science told us of a coming earthquake it would be immoral not to tell the inhabitants of the earthquake zone that it was coming, even if the cultural elders believed that the fairy queen had not informed them of this event.
We assume with enlightenment comes the desire for equality and freedom etc, basically fundamental human rights. To not give people the information, the means to realise this is immoral.
Your blinkered by relativism and multiculturalism.
We are all human and therefore share a common human nature. To allow cultural constructs to suppress basic common human desires is immoral. You seem to think that "those backwards brown folks are too primitive for our enlightened freedoms". That is sir, horrifically racist and bigotted.
Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
25. Comment #160854 by Alkal on April 14, 2008 at 1:32 pm
Human Rights are universal regardless of culture.Oppressing women, children and minorities in the name of Culture and tradition is always carried out. The evil of "tolerating other cultures" keeps the canker alive. What is this about "judging" another culture, is it agreeing that "they" are different, somehow less human. That attitude far from being assimilationist is more than divisive.
This is a travesty a shame...
If selling a 13 year old is "culture" to hell with that culture( and before anyone says anything let me tell you I am from India- I married on my own, do not believe in any bs about preserving tradition....)
Other Comments by Alkal
26. Comment #160856 by Adam Morrison on April 14, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Al,
I was gonna post about that story, but looks like you beat me to it. It's disgusting that the father isn't on charges and the 'husband' will probably not receive an appropriate sentence.
Other Comments by Adam Morrison
27. Comment #160857 by Henri Bergson on April 14, 2008 at 1:33 pm
Human rights are not actually universal, but particular to the modern-age West. In a few hundred years they will pass. Other Comments by Henri Bergson
28. Comment #160858 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on April 14, 2008 at 1:35 pm
We are all human and therefore share a common human nature. To allow cultural constructs to suppress basic common human desires is immoral. You seem to think that "those backwards brown folks are too primitive for our enlightened freedoms". That is sir, hideously racist and bigotted.Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
29. Comment #160859 by Henri Bergson on April 14, 2008 at 1:38 pm
Typical is-ought fallacy there, TCT. Other Comments by Henri Bergson
30. Comment #160860 by sarah95 on April 14, 2008 at 1:43 pm
This story brought to you by the letters D and M:
Dogma (caste-prostitution, misogyny)
Multiculturalism ("all cultures are 'equal' and to be 'respected' regardless of how people are treated within the culture")
Henri: Maybe the perspective of human rights and minimizing physical harm(ie, rape) to human beings isn't easily justified in any but an emotional way, but that doesn't make it a "frenzied religious" perspective. If the fact that human rights can't easily be justified with objective emotionless facts makes them useless, then I think I (and likely most people here) will have to disagree with you.
Other Comments by sarah95
31. Comment #160861 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on April 14, 2008 at 1:43 pm
I'm neither a cultural relativist or multiculturist
AND
Human rights are not actually universal, but particular to the modern-age West. In a few hundred years they will pass.
Is that not a contradiction?
Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
32. Comment #160865 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Henri Bergson-
You commentators here are being very naive: you cannot judge another culture from your own culture's perspective.
'Human rights' is just a western notion that, like 'God', cannot be proven.
In other words, you're all acting like frenzied religious nutcases pushing your unjustified perspective on others.
If you were saying that on TV I'd be yelling at the screen right now.
So, what's your position on Al's example in comment 2? Is that just another example of different cultures that we can't possibly judge?
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
33. Comment #160866 by Henri Bergson on April 14, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Sarah,If human rights can be justified with emotions, then so can religious claims. Proof (rational or empirical) is needed.
Just because you feel it, doesn't mean it's true. The Bedia tribe feel differently.
Other Comments by Henri Bergson
34. Comment #160867 by Henri Bergson on April 14, 2008 at 1:49 pm
TCT,That is no contradiction as I am a moral relativist, not a cultural relativist.
This means I am not saying that you're being immoral in judging others, but simply that morals, like God, are delusions.
Other Comments by Henri Bergson
35. Comment #160869 by Henri Bergson on April 14, 2008 at 1:54 pm
Quet.,You cannot possibly judge it as factually incorrect, only as not to your taste - as you would judge food or drink.
We are only animals. Do you judge a lion when it kills prey? Do you judge a killer whale when it tortures seals for its amusement?
Human rights is yet another 'false ideology', as Marx would say.
Other Comments by Henri Bergson
36. Comment #160873 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on April 14, 2008 at 1:57 pm
Yes Henri true. Nothing is either right or wrong. However we can have a nice academic discussion on the morality and we come up with the fact that there is no objective morality and it is a matter of emotion. However one caveat. Humans share commonalities.Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
37. Comment #160876 by Henri Bergson on April 14, 2008 at 2:00 pm
TCT,Yes, we all share, say, aggression and hatred. These are human commonalities - does that make them human rights?
You cannot derive an 'ought' (e.g. 'human rights') from an 'is' (human commonalities). It's a logical fallacy, as mentioned.
I refer you to Bertrand Russell, A J Ayer, Wittgenstein, Nietzsche, Marx, et al, on this matter.
Other Comments by Henri Bergson
38. Comment #160883 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 2:12 pm
Comment #160876 by Henri BergsonYou cannot derive an 'ought' (e.g. 'human rights') from an 'is' (human commonalities). It's a logical fallacy, as mentioned.
Irrelevant. We aren't out to "prove" what we ought to do. We desire to discuss things with others and negotiate how best we get along. Human rights are a way we do that.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
39. Comment #160884 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on April 14, 2008 at 2:13 pm
Principles such as equality, freedom, concern and sympathy for others, can be shown to be consistent with certain feelings, such as you own wish to be cared for, for example, that privilege is far more likely to be born than earned so an argument for privatisation of necessities is a shaky argument etc, but if a person has different feelings then these principles are meaningless. If you care about the human race surviving then certain things follow from that.It is a fairly conservative conclusion that humans by and large share the same feelings considering our commonality.
Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
40. Comment #160887 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Henri Bergson-
We are only animals. Do you judge a lion when it kills prey? Do you judge a killer whale when it tortures seals for its amusement?
Fallacious reasoning. Lions and killer whales do not possess what humans do: intelligence and culture.
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
41. Comment #160888 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Adam,
Yemen is just a different place. It is so sick. Most people in Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and Egypt would be disgusted by this. Yemen is the worst of the worst when it comes to this kind of thing. A guy like that would be beaten to death in prison in the US.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
42. Comment #160890 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on April 14, 2008 at 2:21 pm
Fallacious reasoning. Lions and killer whales do not possess what humans do: intelligence and culture.
Actually he is right. And what you give is a matter of definition. Where he is wrong is that there can be no human morality. I think the principle of consistency allows that there can.
Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
43. Comment #160896 by Henri Bergson on April 14, 2008 at 2:25 pm
Zara,Another meaningless response, thanks. Replace the words 'human rights' with 'Christianity' and you'll see the flaw in your rebuttal.
You're also blatantly 'begging the question': assuming what you seek to prove: we can be moral ('get along') by being moral ('human rights').
Get out of the circle, think straight and get serious! (as Jack Nicholson might say.)
Read the atheists I mentioned above.
Other Comments by Henri Bergson
44. Comment #160897 by cam9976 on April 14, 2008 at 2:25 pm
I think I'm gonna hurl... Other Comments by cam9976
45. Comment #160900 by Henri Bergson on April 14, 2008 at 2:29 pm
Quet.,Humans also possess, unlike other animals, delusions (e.g. religion, prescriptive morality).
Secondly, whales and lions do possess intelligence. Culture cannot yield objective morality, as otherwise you would have to say the Bedia tribe did.
There's no fallacy in my arguments, only in yours.
Other Comments by Henri Bergson
46. Comment #160903 by Artful_Dodger on April 14, 2008 at 2:31 pm
If there is not God, Henri Bergson is right. We have no right to inflict our conception of human rights on any other culture. We have no business interfering, laying down the law or accusing. We have no business telling the nazis that what they did to the Jews gypsies and homosexuals was wrong. We have no business ranting about women's rights in Afghanistan, nor for that matter condemning Bush and co for intervening in Afghanistan or in Iraq. In fact we have now grounds for denouncing anyone for anything. If there is no God we are only animals, and there is no more reason for condemning slave traders or mass murderers than there is for locking up lions for killing zebras ... if there is no God!Other Comments by Artful_Dodger
47. Comment #160907 by Henri Bergson on April 14, 2008 at 2:33 pm
TCT,"equality, freedom, concern and sympathy for others" all derive from Christianity in the west (see Matthew 5-7: sermon on the mount).
Remember Christianity was a religion for the oppressed: the Jews under the Romans and under the richer Jews (Pharisees). The Romans, Spartans, Vikings, Samurai held no such sentimental, soppy values.
Even Plato considered compassion a vice.
I think you need to be more historical and objective.
And again, aggression & hatred can be useful feelings that we all share. But we do not value them in the west as Christianity, the perspective of the weak, has taken a 2000-year grip on our way of thinking.
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48. Comment #160909 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 2:35 pm
Comment #160903 by Artful_DodgerThat is nonsense. We discuss human rights because we have mirror neurones and consciences. They give at least some of us an empathic sense. We can imagine what it is like for someone else to suffer, and that causes us upset.
There is a better argument for not supporting human rights if there is a God, as there is some Big Sky Fairy watching over everyone, and who should do the Right Thing.
Without God, we look after each other.
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49. Comment #160910 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 2:36 pm
Henri-
I don't recall saying that there was any objective morality. And you know full well I meant that whales and lions do not possess intelligence to the same extent as humans do.
The fact is that humans, by and large have a set of values that largely agree. This is a product of our evolutionary heritage. Culture is the means by which we harmonise that morality and create laws to govern our behaviour. But that does not mean we cannot judge those who rape children.
----
And I see Artful Dodger has materialised on another thread. How long will it be before you have to leave, with a host of unanswered questions trailing behind you?
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50. Comment #160912 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 2:37 pm
Comment #160907 by Henri Bergson Even Plato considered compassion a vice.
Good think we aren't all like him then.
And again, aggression & hatred can be useful feelings that we all share. But we do not value them in the west as Christianity, the perspective of the weak, has taken a 2000-year grip on our way of thinking.
Yeah, cos before Christianity we were all brutes.
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1. Comment #160690 by aznxscorpion517 on April 14, 2008 at 9:33 am
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