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Monday, April 21, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Pope's Views on Science Invoke Spirited Debate

by National Geographic

Thanks to evolver23 for the link.

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/04/080418-pope-science.html

Pope's Views on Science Invoke Spirited Debate
Anne Minard

As the pope celebrated his 81st birthday this week amid a warm welcome in Washington, D.C., there was no doubt that believers have embraced his religious conviction. (Watch video of the pope's D.C. mass.)

But his scientific positions have both believers and non-believers scratching their heads.

Even before Joseph Ratzinger became Pope Benedict XVI in 2005, he came under fire for what some say are his anti-science views.

He has been criticized for comments about the 17th-century astronomer Galileo, stem cell research, and evolution.

Most recently, the pontiff made headlines when he decided to relocate the Vatican Observatory currently housed at the papal summer residence near Rome. Some media outlets painted the move as an eviction of sorts, and therefore a sign of Pope Benedict's dismissive approach to science.

But scientists who are also Catholics say the pope is not knocking scientific progress—instead he's trying to push a dialog between science and faith that was also important to his predecessor, Pope John Paul II.

In a speech written earlier this year, the pope put his views about science into an analogy: "The tree of knowledge is fed through spiritual roots," he wrote, "and without those it will wither and die."

Observatory on the Move

That's not to say faith should stand without the pursuit of knowledge, said Father Christopher Corbally, vice director at the Vatican Observatory.

"He's an excellent theologian," Corbally said of Pope Benedict. "What theologians need to do is pay attention to the best science of the time."

The Catholic Church has pursued scientific research as far back as the 1500s, when it used astronomy to reconcile the calendar created by Julius Caesar after it became out of step with the seasons.

And like several adventurous countries at the time, the Vatican looked to the heavens for navigational clues.

The church's observatory was officially founded in 1789 within the walls of the Vatican, spending more than four decades on a hill near St. Peter's Basilica.

Bright lights from the growing Vatican City eventually made fainter stars harder to study, so the observatory was modernized and rebuilt in the 1930s at the pope's summer palace in Castel Gandolfo, a lake town outside of Rome.

Despite the most recent decision to move the facility farther from the palace, the church's historic telescopes will stay inside their existing domes and be accessible for roles in minor astronomy projects.

As for the researchers and their current tools, "we're moving to rather more accommodating quarters, still on the papal property," Corbally said. "We're not getting evicted. The research is very much getting encouraged."

Corbally, who splits his time between Italy and the Vatican Advanced Technology Telescope in Arizona, noted that even before becoming pope, Cardinal Ratzinger conducted numerous staff outings to Castel Gandolfo.

"One obviously got the very distinct impression that the cardinal really did have a regard for science," he said.

In fact, the observatory today remains in operation because the Catholic Church values science, Corbally said.

"It's at the whim of the pope that we exist," he said. "The Vatican can just stop having the observatory at a moment. As long as it has the observatory, then it supports science."

Was Galileo Wrong?

But the observatory move is not the first time Pope Benedict has come under scrutiny for his perceived negative attitude toward science.

In January the pope called off a visit to Sapienza University of Rome after professors and students there signed a petition in protest of what they said was his support of the Inquisition's condemnation of famed Italian astronomer Galileo Galilei.

The church had been outraged when Galileo suggested that Earth was not the center of the known universe, but orbited the sun. Galileo recanted and so was not killed, but he spent the rest of his life under house arrest.

As pope, Benedict has not formally addressed the subject of Galileo. But when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, he gave a series of speeches in the 1990s that have been debated ever since.

In one of them, he quoted now-deceased science philosopher Paul Feyerabend, a former professor at the University of California, Berkeley.

"The church at the time of Galileo was much more faithful to reason than Galileo himself, and also took into consideration the ethical and social consequences of Galileo's doctrine," Ratzinger quoted Feyerabend as saying.

"Its verdict against Galileo was rational and just, and revisionism can be legitimized solely for motives of political opportunism."

Catholics have long defended the 1990s Ratzinger speeches. They say he was quoting modern philosophers to show that science itself was in crisis, and that scientists—not Ratzinger—were re-evaluating Galileo's case.

Ugo Aglietti, a physicist at La Sapienza, said he was not among those who signed the petition. But he said the protest was about a bigger issue than the content of the 1990s speech.

The protesters were worried about the pope's perceived idea "that you can be a scientist and you can be a Christian and there is not any contradiction, that faith in Christ can help you understand more," he said.

"Some people didn't like this idea. They were worried that the pope would interfere with science, which they think is … completely independent of any faith."

Stem Cells vs. Human Dignity

Critics also note that as pope, Benedict has cautioned Catholics about certain biomedical advances.

In a January speech to the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, the pope suggested that techniques used in artificial insemination, in vitro fertilization, and embryonic stem cell research have violated "the barrier that served to protect human dignity."

He proposed that using human beings as "mere biological material" at their most defenseless stage calls into question the very concept of humanity.

"Of course, the Church appreciates and encourages the progress of the biomedical sciences," he added, citing the use of stem cells derived from living adults instead of embryos, fertility treatments, and genetic therapy.

But he called for "only authentic progress, namely, that scientific progress truly respect every human being, whose personal dignity must be recognized since he is created in the image of God."

Keith Campbell of the U.K.'s University of Nottingham, who in 1996 famously cloned Dolly the sheep with colleague Ian Wilmut, disagrees.

"In my opinion the use of assisted reproduction techniques helps … reduce potential side effects of multiple births, and can potentially—through the use of embryonic stem cells—cure or alleviate many diseases," he said.

"The use of cells from early embryos does not breach the barrier of human dignity, but may in effect increase dignity by providing therapeutic help to numerous other human beings."

Room for Faith

The pope has stopped short of endorsing intelligent design, the recently popularized belief that some aspects of life can't be explained by evolution and are only attributable to God.

In fact, in a July 2007 speech in Italy, Benedict called the debate between evolution and creationism "an absurdity." He noted that "there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution" but that the theory still had room for God to play a role.

(Related: "Evolution and Religion Can Coexist, Scientists Say" [October 18, 2004].)

Phillip Sloan, a history of science professor at Indiana's Notre Dame University, a Catholic institution, pointed out that the Vatican will be the main sponsor of an international conference on evolution to be held in Rome in March 2009.

The conference is being organized to commemorate the 200th anniversary of Charles Darwin's birth and the 150th year of the publication of his seminal work The Origin of Species.

Sloan says he does not advocate mixing "scientific methodology with religious beliefs in some direct way, as sought by such things as 'creation science.'"

There is need for contemplation about how religion informs science and science informs a philosophy of life, he said.

"But a science classroom is not the place to try to resolve these issues."

In the speech Pope Benedict was supposed to give at La Sapienza in January, he pointed out the risk of science that is uninformed by faith.

"Yet if reason … becomes deaf to the great message that comes to it from Christian faith and wisdom, then it withers like a tree whose roots can no longer reach the waters that give it life," he wrote.

But at least one scientist who believes in God thinks it's the church, not science, that's at risk of cutting itself off. Joel Primack, a Jewish physicist at the University of California, Santa Cruz, had a suggestion for the Catholic Church.

"I think the church should heed the warning of St. Augustine, who said: 'In matters that are obscure and far beyond our vision … we should not rush in headlong and so firmly take our stand on one side that—if further progress in the search for truth undermines this position—we too fall with it.'"

Comments 1 - 33 of 33 |

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1. Comment #165241 by Geoff on April 21, 2008 at 8:47 am

 avatarSo much drivel, so little time...

"The tree of knowledge is fed through spiritual roots," he wrote, "and without those it will wither and die."

"The church at the time of Galileo was much more faithful to reason than Galileo himself...Its verdict against Galileo was rational and just..."

He proposed that using human beings as "mere biological material" at their most defenseless stage calls into question the very concept of humanity.

"there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution" but that the theory still had room for God to play a role.

"There is need for contemplation about how religion informs science..."


OK, just underline them.

Other Comments by Geoff

2. Comment #165256 by irate_atheist on April 21, 2008 at 9:10 am

 avatarWhy does anyone take this fuckwit or his cult of dumb-arsery seriously? So stupid, he's not even wrong.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

3. Comment #165262 by jimbob on April 21, 2008 at 9:15 am

Well, the pope has succeeded in recasting himself from rottweiler, to friendly grandpa pastor (helped immeasurably by fawning politicians and media).

However, the reality is that he is still one of the leading hypocrites among religious leaders. For all the talk of science, and of human rights, we still have a church that:

- Denies women an equal role in the church.
- Denies women reproductive autonomy.
- Subverts the science driving public health, thus killing millions who could have avoided AIDS.
- Jumps on the environmental bandwagon, but rails against contraception.
- Still has not substantively addressed the root causes of its history of child sexual abuse and rape.

Other Comments by jimbob

4. Comment #165264 by Vaal on April 21, 2008 at 9:19 am

 avatarBeware the dark side of the Force, oh Darth Ratzinger. How dare he criticize Obi Wan Galileo!

Other Comments by Vaal

5. Comment #165298 by cowalker on April 21, 2008 at 10:03 am

"Yet if reason … becomes deaf to the great message that comes to it from Hindu faith and wisdom, then it withers like a tree whose roots can no longer reach the waters that give it life," he wrote.

"Yet if reason … becomes deaf to the great message that comes to it from Muslim faith and wisdom, then it withers like a tree whose roots can no longer reach the waters that give it life," he wrote.

"Yet if reason … becomes deaf to the great message that comes to it from Druid faith and wisdom, then it withers like a tree whose roots can no longer reach the waters that give it life," he wrote.

"Yet if reason … becomes deaf to the great message that comes to it from Quetzalcoatl's faith and wisdom, then it withers like a tree whose roots can no longer reach the waters that give it life," he wrote.

Yeah. Whatever.

Other Comments by cowalker

6. Comment #165306 by papavb on April 21, 2008 at 10:11 am

"One obviously got the very distinct impression that the cardinal really did have a regard for science,"

If the pope "had regard" for science, he would abolish the Catholic Church.

Other Comments by papavb

7. Comment #165315 by Ed-words on April 21, 2008 at 10:27 am

While the Pope was "celebrating" Sunday Mass

in NYC, Orthodox clerics were hitting each

other with palm frondes in another Holy

Sepulchre dispute. (That's not MY religion.)

What a hilarious video this would make.

Other Comments by Ed-words

8. Comment #165317 by ShavenYak on April 21, 2008 at 10:31 am

...the pope suggested that techniques used in artificial insemination, in vitro fertilization, and embryonic stem cell research have violated "the barrier that served to protect human dignity."

He proposed that using human beings as "mere biological material" at their most defenseless stage calls into question the very concept of humanity.


A guy who shelters child rapists from justice has no standing to talk about human dignity.
"Using human beings" "at their most defenseless stage" - the irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife.

Other Comments by ShavenYak

9. Comment #165337 by Vaal on April 21, 2008 at 11:07 am

 avatar
Its verdict against Galileo was rational and just, and revisionism can be legitimized solely for motives of political opportunism


Well done Ratzinger, you are affirming one of the Church's biggest own goals by threatening Galileo with death and "letting him off" by imprisoning him for the rest of his life, and for what? For describing the world around him as it ACTUALLY is? What a complete dick head.

At least the previous Pope had the dignity to admit that the Church had made a mistake with its persecution of Galileo and issued an apology, albeit 400 years late. He at least was a likable old codger, instead of this current reptilian primate. I have always thought that the irony of them calling themselves primates is completely lost on them :-)

There should be a special word for intelligent people who are willfully ignorant, instead of their cerebrally challenged acolytes, and then I realized that Irate already had the perfect word. So Irate, do the honours...

I hope Darth has taken a sailing ship over to the States and is cycling everywhere. Surely by flying isn't he committing the sin that he made up the other day regarding environmental pollution? Or is he exempt?

Other Comments by Vaal

10. Comment #165352 by MaxD on April 21, 2008 at 11:38 am

 avatarWhat struck me with the tone of the article was its spin.
The pope is percieved as negative-x, but wait he's really Mr. Reasonable.

And the level of critique is appauling. I mean the question I asked, one of many, "Why does this guy need a palace?"

Vaal's point about the right and reasonable Church's action against Galieo also seems so obvious that any reporter ought to have pointed out exactly what the Church's actions were. Where is the discussion of this assertion? Again, Pope Benedict is negative-x but wait....

Fucking strange.

Other Comments by MaxD

11. Comment #165362 by quill on April 21, 2008 at 11:48 am

 avatar
In fact, in a July 2007 speech in Italy, Benedict called the debate between evolution and creationism "an absurdity." He noted that "there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution" but that the theory still had room for God to play a role.


Okay, he gets some credit there. Thank goodness I can still say, "even the Pope accepts evolution". Still a prick, though.

Other Comments by quill

12. Comment #165367 by Partisan on April 21, 2008 at 11:50 am

 avatar
In fact, in a July 2007 speech in Italy, Benedict called the debate between evolution and creationism "an absurdity." He noted that "there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution" but that the theory still had room for God to play a role.


This in itself makes me value the Pope's judgements above 50% of Americans. I was less keen on what else he had to say, but it's good to see he's still in reality.

Edit: Jinx quill =D

Other Comments by Partisan

13. Comment #165378 by Sleep of Reason on April 21, 2008 at 12:23 pm

I think His Wholyness the Pope might like this new scientific slant on the science of renewable resources.

http://www.youtube.com./watch?v=1xw5rXSbmqU

Other Comments by Sleep of Reason

14. Comment #165468 by MorituriMax on April 21, 2008 at 1:50 pm

 avatarEverytime I see the Pope with his arms out wide, that manic grin on his face, his wide eyed stare, man he creeps me out Big Time.

Other Comments by MorituriMax

15. Comment #165483 by KingMerv00 on April 21, 2008 at 2:02 pm

"He noted that "there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution" but that the theory still had room for God to play a role."

There is always room for unfalsifiable ideas.

God = Bipolar murdering Jell-O

Other Comments by KingMerv00

16. Comment #165484 by Lucas on April 21, 2008 at 2:04 pm

 avatarYikes, Darth Ratzinger is right. The guy actually kind of looks like Emperor Palpatine, especially the face he makes when he's torturing young Luke with lighting bolts. Man that's creepy.

Other Comments by Lucas

17. Comment #165492 by Geodesic17 on April 21, 2008 at 2:12 pm

I don't know if it is because the Pope's visit is on the East Coast, but I work for a Jesuit College in Seattle and more people here seemed to be enthusiastic about the Dalai Lama's visit to the city. There isn't much Pope talk going on around here.

Other Comments by Geodesic17

18. Comment #165506 by Jack Rawlinson on April 21, 2008 at 2:32 pm

 avatarHere's the "conversation between science and faith" I generally have.

"You're wrong, you idiot".

"No I'm not".

"And your evidence for that claim is...?"

"Err... well... YOU'RE ARROGANT!"

"And with good reason, you dunce."

I like to keep that particular conversation as succinct as it deserves to be. :-)

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

19. Comment #165522 by Johnny O on April 21, 2008 at 2:53 pm

 avatar
The tree of knowledge is fed through spiritual roots," he wrote, "and without those it will wither and die."

Was it not the 'Tree of Knowledge' that Eve picked the forbidden fruit from and gave to Adam?

We'd all be living it up in Eden if wasn't for that bloody tree...

Other Comments by Johnny O

20. Comment #165533 by Inferno on April 21, 2008 at 3:34 pm

 avatar
"The church at the time of Galileo was much more faithful to reason than Galileo himself, and also took into consideration the ethical and social consequences of Galileo's doctrine," Ratzinger quoted Feyerabend as saying.

Ah, this must be some new use of the word "reason" that I was previously unaware.

the pope suggested that techniques used in artificial insemination, in vitro fertilization, and embryonic stem cell research have violated "the barrier that served to protect human dignity."

Silly me. I thought protecting human dignity would involve providing basic health care, education and equal rights to women and homosexuals.

Other Comments by Inferno

21. Comment #165556 by Border Collie on April 21, 2008 at 4:41 pm

Reminds me of a movie title ... Thin Blue Line ... of reason ...

Other Comments by Border Collie

22. Comment #165589 by Phasic on April 21, 2008 at 6:27 pm

 avatar
In a speech written earlier this year, the pope put his views about science into an analogy: "The tree of knowledge is fed through spiritual roots," he wrote, "and without those it will wither and die."


I thought trees "fed" through their leaves?...

Other Comments by Phasic

23. Comment #165653 by Ygern on April 22, 2008 at 1:39 am

Ugh. I can't imagine why anyone cares what this rather dubious man has to say about science.

I think Irate_Atheist somes it up rather succinctly.

Other Comments by Ygern

24. Comment #165659 by HunterZolomon on April 22, 2008 at 1:56 am

 avatar
"In the speech Pope Benedict was supposed to give at La Sapienza in January, he pointed out the risk of science that is uninformed by faith.


...uninformed by faith? LOL! Just this morning I consulted the fairies at the back of my garden on safety measures before setting up the data arrays I need.

Other Comments by HunterZolomon

25. Comment #165660 by rod-the-farmer on April 22, 2008 at 2:05 am

 avatarI agree with those who say he looks creepy. And as for

In a speech written earlier this year, the pope put his views about science into an analogy: "The tree of knowledge is fed through spiritual roots," he wrote, "and without those it will wither and die."

does this not sound like Mitt Romney or whoever it was who said in the U.S. election campaign that "religion needs freedom, and freedom needs religion" ???

If he had said "is SOMETIMES fed", or "is OFTEN fed" he might have a point. But to imply ALWAYS causes me to despair. Did you see the pictures of two nuns preparing for his visit, and looking at a cell phone ? Wow. Mind control.

Thanks goodness Darth Rat has no control over me.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

26. Comment #165705 by padster1976 on April 22, 2008 at 4:26 am

 avatar"He's an excellent theologian,"

Ha ha! I don't see that as a compliment!

Other Comments by padster1976

27. Comment #165716 by lievemebe on April 22, 2008 at 5:21 am

The Pope along with the Vatican have not learnt anything since Galileo. I am not talking about Ratzinger's lame and desperate apology for the 17th-century church.
Replace "Earth" with "human body" and you have the current version of Galileo's dilemma for contemporary Catholics. Now the human body is sacred, centre of the universe and untouchable. No contraception allowed, no AIDs control by condom, no embryonic research.
To say the Pope is 400 years out of date is such an understatement that it is beyond comedy. When I think of the current Pope I think of poor Galileo, but also of the countless people who have needlessly suffered from religious stupidity.

Other Comments by lievemebe

28. Comment #165794 by schmeer on April 22, 2008 at 10:50 am

"Surely by flying isn't he committing the sin that he made up the other day regarding environmental pollution? Or is he exempt?"

Maybe he performed transubstantiation on the offending pollution and changed it to Jesus' body and blood. Poof! No pollution.

Other Comments by schmeer

29. Comment #165843 by Adam Morrison on April 22, 2008 at 1:07 pm

 avatarLol at the Pope Palpatine comments.

I was at the Vatican right before easter (like 3 days before easter). Doing Pope Palpatine jokes in the Vatican courtyard.

'Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now fulfill your destiny and molest that altar boy!'

Incidently I also won a poetry contest for a little limerick I made up regarding the popemobile, altar boys and protection.

Seriously though, Pope on science is about as much an authority as I am on the behaviour of the invisible three-ringed speckled flying squirrel.

Other Comments by Adam Morrison

30. Comment #166030 by Double Bass Atheist on April 22, 2008 at 5:12 pm

 avatar
"Its verdict against Galileo was rational and just, and revisionism can be legitimized solely for motives of political opportunism

Revisionism? Revisionism???
Has the Pope truly gone back to the Dark Ages and no longer feels that the sun is at the center of the solar system?
After all, the header above that section says "Was Galileo Wrong?"
Let's see... ummm... No.

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

31. Comment #166184 by passutoba on April 23, 2008 at 1:33 am

Maybe the dangerous old fool should spend a night at the papal observatory in the company of a knowledgeable astronomer........

Other Comments by passutoba

32. Comment #166332 by Ygern on April 23, 2008 at 6:43 am

Its verdict against Galileo was rational and just, and revisionism can be legitimized solely for motives of political opportunism


Is it just me, or don't you also think he meant to say:

Its verdict against Galileo was solely for motives of political opportunism, and revisionism is rational and just.

Other Comments by Ygern

33. Comment #168919 by Serdan on April 25, 2008 at 1:00 pm

 avatar
"He's an excellent mazemaker,"

Fixed.

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