1. Comment #169590 by Sleep of Reason on April 26, 2008 at 11:13 am

As a non-American I will feel much safer when they get religion out of the White House and the Pentagon.

Ah well, I can dream.

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2. Comment #169591 by SRWB on April 26, 2008 at 11:26 am

This fascination with faith and religion in the US military is not unheard of at all, unfortunately. The US military has a well-deserved reputation for ramming this stuff down their members' throats. Thankfully we don't have the same experience in the Canadian military, although we still have a chaplain's branch which has some influence. But by and large, faith is a personal matter and not one endorsed by the military hierarchy as a rule - there are exceptions of course.

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3. Comment #169592 by Hypoluxa on April 26, 2008 at 11:27 am

As a fellow Army Vet, I served in Bosnia and I had a few religious comrades, but luckily never had any pressure from them. But then I didn't consider myself an atheist at that point in my life, just an agnostic from what I can remember...

At any rate you get people of all kinds of backgrounds when your in the military, from Kool-Aid drinkers (like the soldiers this guy served with), to free thinkers, but not many of the latter. Its good this guy finally made a complaint, military life is already stressful enough, no need to get harassed and more stressed over something that is unprovable and highly improbable...

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4. Comment #169593 by mordacious1 on April 26, 2008 at 11:27 am

The first thing the army gave me when I enlisted during Viet Nam was a copy of the new testament. Things got worse from there. In basic, on Sundays, you could go to church then have free time, or stay in the barracks and clean toilets. By the time I got out in '84 the real Christianization of the military was in high gear. The churches were sending people on "missions" to preach jesus to us heathens. The main problem was that if I asked one of my christian privates if the Soviets came across the border would they shoot to kill. Everyone of them said "no", killing is a sin. THEN GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE ARMY YOU MORON! I've heard it has been getting worse now.

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5. Comment #169596 by Liquid on April 26, 2008 at 11:37 am

Feel bad for him, he's getting shot at by religious fanatics and he's getting pounded on from his own camp by religious fanatics.

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6. Comment #169598 by akado on April 26, 2008 at 11:41 am

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/treaty_tripoli.html
treaty with tripoli
art. 11
everyone should read this to shut them up
very important to what the founding fathers wanted ;P
and it's sad to see our soldiers at this way.........

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7. Comment #169600 by huzonfurst on April 26, 2008 at 11:45 am

One more example of how religion is another tool for bullies. Aggressive, socially coercive behavior apparently does have some survival advantage or it should have disappeared by now.

Thank gawd I refused to go to Vietnam or the other soldiers would have done me in before we ever went on patrol...

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8. Comment #169601 by Diacanu on April 26, 2008 at 11:45 am

Ah, the "the founding fathers were christians", meme.

That one just won't go away, will it?

Guess they know it's the only leg they have to stand on, even though it's a lie.

Tch.

Well, all we can do is keep spreading the anti-virus of truth.
The historical record is on our side, not theirs.

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9. Comment #169602 by Hypoluxa on April 26, 2008 at 11:46 am

Comment #169596 by Liquid on April 26, 2008 at 11:37 am
Feel bad for him, he's getting shot at by religious fanatics and he's getting pounded on from his own camp by religious fanatics.

No kidding! How ironic is that!

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10. Comment #169605 by mordacious1 on April 26, 2008 at 11:54 am

To huzonfurst: not true, once the bullets start flying the only thing thing that matters is who's gonna save your ass. The worst guys in my unit were the born agains, they were praying when they should have been thinking, and were slackers and dumbasses. Give me an atheist who can think for himself anyday.

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11. Comment #169606 by phil rimmer on April 26, 2008 at 11:55 am

Good stuff akado, but lets post it.

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

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12. Comment #169617 by Koreman on April 26, 2008 at 12:14 pm

Unbelievable.

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13. Comment #169618 by bluebird on April 26, 2008 at 12:14 pm

There was a similiar article in our paper today:
http://www.kansascity.com/440/story/592901.html

When we hear about Fort Riley, it's usually about deployments or homecomings. Very pleased this story is making national headlines. I have a maternal urge to give him a hug and say "good job".... probably a note of encouragement would suffice!!

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14. Comment #169619 by Ian Bamlett on April 26, 2008 at 12:14 pm

If I was in an organization where I had to put my life in the hands of the guys next to me, and most of the guys next to me were christians and I was an atheist.... well, I think I would shut the fuck up about my atheism.

Not saying it's right; but the military is a different world. Let's get civilian society sorted first - it all flows from that anyway.

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15. Comment #169620 by Skepticon on April 26, 2008 at 12:14 pm

What about the officer who berated Specialist Hall? What does it say about our military officers when they lack a fundamental understanding about the US Constitution? Are they not required to take an oath to DEFEND the Constitution?

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16. Comment #169621 by MorituriMax on April 26, 2008 at 12:15 pm

Sleep of Reason wrote,

As a non-American I will feel much safer when they get religion out of the White House and the Pentagon.

You might want to pick the people who really want to kill you for religious reasons. Fanatical Muslims top the list. If you're worried about the White House and the Pentagon instead of them, then maybe the terrorists have already won the PR war in your mind.

Skepticon, there are ocasional loonies in every organisation, what makes you think the Army is excempt? Sad but true, my dad was in the Army for 25 years and he was raised with the n-word being normal fare. He's not racist because he will treat anyone with the same amount of courtesy that they show him, but he does hold the same views of blacks that some of the blacks hold of whites.. sad but true.

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17. Comment #169625 by will young on April 26, 2008 at 12:22 pm

As point blank as Article 11 is I have shown the Tripoli treaty to many christian nationalists, without much success frankly. Until some truth actually bites them on the ass most people only see what they want to see.

Never hurts to have it handy though.

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18. Comment #169639 by HappyPrimate on April 26, 2008 at 1:00 pm

I would love to be able to at least give this guy some emotional support. Anybody have a way to send him a message of support and let him know we are out here for him?

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19. Comment #169641 by mesomodel on April 26, 2008 at 1:02 pm

This is now on the front page of cnn.com. Sweet.

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20. Comment #169657 by MelM on April 26, 2008 at 1:33 pm

The organization: Military Religious Freedom Foundation:
http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/


The book: "With God on Our Side: One Man's War Against an Evangelical Coup in America's Military"
http://www.amazon.com/God-Our-Side-Evangelical-Americas/dp/0312374836/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209241979&sr=1-1

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21. Comment #169662 by MaxD on April 26, 2008 at 1:43 pm

SRWB said,

This fascination with faith and religion in the US military is not unheard of at all, unfortunately. The US military has a well-deserved reputation for ramming this stuff down their members' throats.

I attended my first prep-drill (kind like pre-training for National Guard enlistees) and have seen first hand how this happens. The SSG whose class I was in was always working God, and biblical morals into the lessons. Fucking annoying. I think I go with Madison who was against the whole Military Chaplaincy thing anyway.

Hopefully this will not become to much of a problem. But I hear OCS is often rank with this kind of religious bullshit even thought there is a greater number of non-believers in the officer ranks (there is that education trend Dawkins was on about in TGD showing itself) there is still a great deal of religious non-sense to attend to.

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22. Comment #169664 by newskin on April 26, 2008 at 1:52 pm

As wrong as this is, you simply cannot deny the power of god as a motivator for combat. The best modern example is probably suicide bombers.
I have spoken to a few friends that have served in Afghanistan and i believe the thing that makes the taliban hardest to fight is that they have little to no fear of death.
Who really wants to die? What better than to comfort yourself (or read: 'indoctrinate your subordinates') with the fact that after a bullet eviscerates your cerebral cortex you will awaken, glowing in white, next to a bearded old bloke and his pearly gates?

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23. Comment #169666 by godless1 on April 26, 2008 at 1:59 pm

You bet the military is going to be pumping religion. A person who believes that once he dies there is no afterlife - such a person won't be too inclined to get in harm's way by going "over the top" as it were.

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24. Comment #169668 by Peacebeuponme on April 26, 2008 at 2:03 pm

All this talk of what the "founding fathers" wanted. Makes for stirring rhetoric, but not really relevant. What should matter is what the Americans who are alive today want.

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25. Comment #169669 by MelM on April 26, 2008 at 2:04 pm

From the AP story:

"...took several bullets in its protective shield. Afterward, his commander asked whether he believed in God, Hall said. I said, 'No, but I believe in Plexiglas,'" Hall said

Priceless.



Dear Mr Commander,
So, God protected Hall but not 4000 other soldiers?
This is proof enough that God loves atheists; back off.

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26. Comment #169670 by JayLee on April 26, 2008 at 2:08 pm

As a Vietnam veteran U. S. Marine (and an atheist from day one) I never experienced any of this pressure to be religious. Most of the comments here seem to be from people who imagine the worst and have little direct experience and knowledge. The dogmatic tone of this blog is just as bad as the silly religious stuff people don't like.

Most of the posts here read like, "I had a friend who knew a dude..." The US military is full of all kinds just like anywhere else. Paint with a broad brush and you're often wrong.

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27. Comment #169671 by newskin on April 26, 2008 at 2:11 pm

All this talk of what the "founding fathers" wanted. Makes for stirring rhetoric, but not really relevant. What should matter is what the Americans who are alive today want.

Dont knock the Founding Fathers! They had the foresight to separate church and state, a line that is being eroded by the current incumbents. It is not often in history that a group of people living several hundred years previous hold more progressive ideals than a significant majority of the current population.
For the record, I am English, but i do view the US constitution as one of the most important documents ever drafted.

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28. Comment #169673 by Lionspoint on April 26, 2008 at 2:15 pm

Mordacious1's comment brought me straight back to the early days of my basic training. Clean the barracks or go to church? Um, gee, let me think...

As for this soldier being harassed, that is rediculous. If a person is deployed to Iraq and the best thing they can think of to spend their time is to harass another person's views, then why not join Al-Sadr. He suppresses differing views, too. I was an outspoken atheist while deployed to Iraq and I didn't get crap from anyone. Of course I was a sergeant, too, and would have taken anyone down that thought to scrap...

Being an atheist he was likely in intelligence and they aren't well known to be good scrappers...

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29. Comment #169675 by Peacebeuponme on April 26, 2008 at 2:15 pm

newskin - don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking them at all.

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30. Comment #169679 by Diacanu on April 26, 2008 at 2:32 pm

newskin-

Who really wants to die? What better than to comfort yourself...

By protecting your family?
Protecting your friends who you love like family?
Protecting the ideals that keep your family and friends free and safe?

No?
Just the invisible spook stuff?

Other Comments by Diacanu

31. Comment #169681 by newskin on April 26, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Diacanu-

Whilst those may be valid reasons for me going to war, i'm not sure that they would make me any more inclined to hasten my own demise!

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32. Comment #169685 by MelM on April 26, 2008 at 2:52 pm

Remember the "Aroma of Jesus" video? I don't recall reading about the outcome of the investigation of the vidio. It turns out that Mr Weinstein (of The Military Religious Freedom Foundation) got a victory.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1649845,00.html

...the Inspector General's office of the Department of Defense released a report concluding that a former Pentagon chaplain and several generals inappropriately loaned the prestige of their positions--and that of the Pentagon and the U.S. government--to make a fundraising film for a non-governmental evangelical group, the so-called Christian Embassy. The report identified Christian Embassy as affiliated with the group Campus Crusade for Christ.

...

In the course of defending himself to the Inspector General's office, one of the generals asserted his belief that the Christian Embassy had become a "quasi-federal entity." This seems to support assertions by Weinstein that there is real confusion in high ranks of the military regarding armed service's secular status.

Repeating:
"This seems to support assertions by Weinstein that there is real confusion in high ranks of the military regarding armed service's secular status. "

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33. Comment #169687 by swordsbane on April 26, 2008 at 2:53 pm

As wrong as this is, you simply cannot deny the power of god as a motivator for combat. The best modern example is probably suicide bombers.
I have spoken to a few friends that have served in Afghanistan and i believe the thing that makes the taliban hardest to fight is that they have little to no fear of death.
Who really wants to die? What better than to comfort yourself (or read: 'indoctrinate your subordinates') with the fact that after a bullet eviscerates your cerebral cortex you will awaken, glowing in white, next to a bearded old bloke and his pearly gates?

I disagree. Many suicide bombers are chosen from among those who have nothing to lose, and given comfort by having their families recieve money when they die, not necessarily having a diety to believe in or a divine crusade to fight, and it is unclear how many of the terrorist leaders actually believe in what they're saying and how many are using the faith for political ends.

On the other hand, self-sacrifice tends to increase as society's become more and more secular. The old adage that there are no athiests in fox-holes is turning out not only to be false now, but that there have historically been MORE athiests in armies than in the populations they defend, and that being in military service is the greatest conversion mechanism getting people away from religion. There are always exceptions to the rule, but even the crusades brought far more people who felt that their religion justified trying to get rich off the Muslims than true Christians out to right a wrong. Papal endorsement just gave them an rationale for what they did.

Add to that that religious people are far more likely to pick and choose those they protect from among those that believe as they do, wheras athiests are more likely to just do their job.

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34. Comment #169688 by DamnDirtyApe on April 26, 2008 at 3:00 pm

Maynard James Keenan, lead singer of my favorite band (ever) was a lieutenant in the US Army. He was a forward artillery observer.

This is one of his best:

http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=2502

I think you guys can figure out where he would stand on this issue.

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35. Comment #169689 by terradea on April 26, 2008 at 3:00 pm

Don't y'all read your Bible? The military Christians are just following Jesus' example. Christian = Christ-like, and the Bible mentions many instances where the lord and savior Jesus Christ threated to hurt or kill non-believers.

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36. Comment #169690 by newskin on April 26, 2008 at 3:04 pm

swordsbane-

You forget of course that suicide bombers stand to loose the ultimate commodity - their lives.

Whilst i do not disagree that atheists would be prepared to fight on justifiable grounds (as much if not more so, as you argue, than a religious person) the point i was making is that surely they are going to be inherantly more careful with their lives?
I would like to think i would be prepared to give my life if there was no alternative and it would save many others. However that is not the most efficient state of mind for a combat trooper! If i believed my death would be rewarded by god, i would be far more daring and willing to lay it down for just about anything to gain that precious spot in heaven! Even taking a more moderate relgious view, i would be less fearful of risking my life as i would be safe in the knowledge that upon surviving my own death, i would eventually be reunited with my loved ones.

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37. Comment #169692 by Diacanu on April 26, 2008 at 3:13 pm

newskin-

Diacanu-

Whilst those may be valid reasons for me going to war, i'm not sure that they would make me any more inclined to hasten my own demise!

Really?
You wouldn't catch a slug to save your own kids?

Other Comments by Diacanu

38. Comment #169695 by newskin on April 26, 2008 at 3:22 pm

Diacanu-

Yes, but only as a last resort and if it was unavoidable. I would definitley be hesitant to 'catch a slug' for someone elses kids though, if only for thinking of my own.

Surely you get that?

EDIT: Diacanu, by the sounds of that question, you hadn't read my previous post either!

Other Comments by newskin

39. Comment #169696 by mordacious1 on April 26, 2008 at 3:24 pm

To the Marine who didn't find the religious problem during Nam. I served with a lot of Marines and never heard one mention jesus unless it was swearing. But the Marines had few draftees and probably fewer fundies. Can't see Ted Haggart joining the Corps. The Air Force seems to have the biggest problem. Also I stand by my statement that born-agains make poor soldiers during combat.

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40. Comment #169700 by prettygoodformonkeys on April 26, 2008 at 3:43 pm

peacebeuponme:

All this talk of what the "founding fathers" wanted. Makes for stirring rhetoric, but not really relevant. What should matter is what the Americans who are alive today want.

Well, they wanted Bush in the White House for two terms. They seem to want a theocratic state. That OK? I mean, as long as they have the numbers?

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41. Comment #169702 by Diacanu on April 26, 2008 at 3:51 pm

newskin-

EDIT: Diacanu, by the sounds of that question, you hadn't read my previous post either!

Y'mean this one?

the point i was making is that surely they are going to be inherantly more careful with their lives?
I would like to think i would be prepared to give my life if there was no alternative and it would save many others.

Well, no duh.

There's a difference between what you describe, and mindlessly throwing your life away because of deluded fundie wackaloonism.

You made it sound in post 22 like the only options were between fundie suicide attacks with a willingness to die, and being relentlessly careful, and afriad to die, and that ONLY religion could one encite one to to be unafraid or even willing to die.

There's a whole specrum in between, and a whole spectrum of causes worth it to an individual to do so.

I just disagreed with the seeming rigid dichotomy you were setting up there.

What you could have said was "nothing gets a soldier to throw one's life away for it's own sake than religion".

I disagree with the underlying assertion that only the religious can fight fiercly, or believe that strongly in a cause.
That implies there aren't any other causes other than imaginary pixies worth struggling for.

That's a point the religious would dearly love to claim for their scoreboard, and I won't sit by and let it be given to them.

Other Comments by Diacanu

42. Comment #169706 by MaxD on April 26, 2008 at 4:06 pm

Newskin,
If you have time to give hastening your own demise a lot of thought chances are you will pause before the action you need to take. Everyone would

I would be willing to bet that if you don't have a lot of time, say by pushing some child out of the way of a bus that is about to splatter her (thereby putting you in harms way) you will probably just act.

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43. Comment #169711 by robotaholic on April 26, 2008 at 4:12 pm

When I read "We went to war because we thought God was on our side"- I am so amazed someone can look up at the sky, at outer space, the billions of light years of majestic galaxies and conclude that "god" would give one tiny nanosecond's thought to who wins any war on this speck of dust floating in pitch blackness. - It seems to me to be the ultimate in conceit. Religious people really are conceited.

sometimes I think things are so backwards --like if your an atheist you think this life is all there is and you will fight HARDER and the best you can- if you think there is heaven or w/e after you die, your not as good a soldier because if someone or yourself gets killed - eehh, you'll be fine in heaven-

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44. Comment #169712 by Enlightenme.. on April 26, 2008 at 4:12 pm

"Comment #169688 by DamnDirtyApe on April 26, 2008 at 3:00 pm

Maynard James Keenan, lead singer of my favorite band (ever) was a lieutenant in the US Army. He was a forward artillery observer.

This is one of his best:

http://www.songmeanings.net/lyric.php?lid=2502

I think you guys can figure out where he would stand on this issue. "


Can't speak to my brother at the moment, Tool and Deftones are his 2 favourite bands, I really liked the first album, but have moved on to things like QOTSA and Mastodon.
But, on a cursory look at those people figuring it out, it shifts between hitch-hikers guide-ttg, Jung, and 'christ-consciousness' ??

I had to laugh at the dude who thinks aborigines only have 44 chromosomes, and that we have 46 "plus two sex-chromosomes" :)

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

45. Comment #169717 by DamnDirtyApe on April 26, 2008 at 4:21 pm

Yes, songmeanings is a bit of a wasted four in the morning discussion site at times - some of the kids who post there are total tools (hee hee), but the band themselves are freaking smart guys and awesome song writers, especially Lateralus with it's fibonacci series timing. Plus A Perfect Circle were damn good as well. And their last album came with an insane stereoscopic viewer.

Mastodon and qotsa are pretty good, but I'm a bit partial to the Mars Volta (especially Frances the Mute) myself. Insane, manic guys. Ooh, I saw Mastodon support tool last year, that ruled

... I really should go to sleep.

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46. Comment #169720 by Enlightenme.. on April 26, 2008 at 4:24 pm

I remember this question of who d'you want fighting for your side coming up somewhere recently, was it in one of the Beyond belief talks, or the AA talks?
Possibly Dan Dennett?

Other Comments by Enlightenme..

47. Comment #169723 by Enlightenme.. on April 26, 2008 at 4:28 pm

"last album came with an insane stereoscopic viewer"
I love that - and all their Geiger-ish imagery.

I used to sell cd's, but we've had to move on to rock clothes (and emo)

I'm gonna sell atheist shirts one day, along with the 'Jesus is a ****' shirt by Cradle of filth (Yeah!) when I slide that past me 'Bro!

I'm ex-airforce, and my dog-tags said CofE
majority of the guys (I'd of guessed) were Agnostic, but faith generally never came up.

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48. Comment #169727 by Adam Morrison on April 26, 2008 at 4:31 pm

Dogmatism and militarism make dangerous bedmates. Religion should NEVER be a structured part of a military. In private, fine, but never as a mainstream component. When you train people to kill and give them weapons you want to make damn sure that these people have a clear head on their soldiers.

Since most religions always have militant aspects to their mythology, codifying that into military life means you can easily end up with a large group of trained and heavily armed people who are firmly convinced that they are instruments of divine will.

Bottom line is, religion (as a type of dogmatism) has a terrifying history of encouraging people not to think for themselves. Combine that with military doctrines that encourage obidience, arms and acquiesence, and atrocities are sure to follow.

It conditions a military mentality like Peter Hitchens describes on the start of the Iraq war when the Major yelled something like 'It's ass-kicking time' with 'We will rock you' playing in the background.

I don't want to make it sound like the milt. is a playground for 'good ol' boys. There are a lot of good soldiers I have known personally. But I know the young guys that I knew who went into the army as well, and they were a big part of me not wanting to enlist right away (I wouldn't put my life in their hands)


SRWB - If you don't mind my asking, what branch of the CF are you in. I'm thinking of trying to do my PhD studying the psychological effects of combat training on aggression and how martial training affects perception of enablement of violence. But I'd like to do it in a participant observational approach (ie I join up, go through basic, infantry training, etc. Instead of just asking soldiers about it).

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49. Comment #169733 by MelM on April 26, 2008 at 4:37 pm

You can leave a comment supporting Jeremy after the story on "Kansas City Star" site (Fort Reley is in Kansas). No login or account is required.

http://www.kansascity.com/440/story/592901.html#recent_comm

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50. Comment #169737 by rod-the-farmer on April 26, 2008 at 4:42 pm

I wonder what would happen in the U.S. IF the draft were to be re-instated, and a potential candidate asked to be excused due to his/her atheism ? I have seen other articles in the news, especially about religious abuse at the Air Force Academy.

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