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Monday, May 5, 2008 | Science : Psychiatry and Psychology | print version Print | Comments

Document The emerging moral psychology

by Dan Jones, Prospect Magazine

Thanks to SR for the link.

Reposted from:
http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10126

Experimental results are beginning to shed light on the psychological foundations of our moral beliefs

Long thought to be a topic of enquiry within the humanities, the nature of human morality is increasingly being scrutinised by the natural sciences. This shift is now beginning to provide impressive intellectual returns on investment. Philosophers, psychologists, neuroscientists, economists, primatologists and anthropologists, all borrowing liberally from each others' insights, are putting together a novel picture of morality—a trend that University of Virginia psychologist Jonathan Haidt has described as the "new synthesis in moral psychology." The picture emerging shows the moral sense to be the product of biologically evolved and culturally sensitive brain systems that together make up the human "moral faculty."


Hot morality

A pillar of the new synthesis is a renewed appreciation of the powerful role played by intuitions in producing our ethical judgements. Our moral intuitions, argue Haidt and other psychologists, derive not from our powers of reasoning, but from an evolved and innate suite of "affective" systems that generate "hot" flashes of feelings when we are confronted with a putative moral violation.

This intuitionist perspective marks a sharp break from traditional "rationalist" approaches in moral psychology, which gained a large following in the second half of the 20th century under the stewardship of the late Harvard psychologist Lawrence Kohlberg. In the Kohlbergian tradition, moral verdicts derive from the application of conscious reasoning, and moral development throughout our lives reflects our improved ability to articulate sound reasons for the verdicts—the highest stages of moral development are reached when people are able to reason about abstract general principles, such as justice, fairness and the Kantian maxim that individuals should be treated as ends and never as means.

But experimental studies give cause to question the primacy of rationality in morality. In one experiment, Jonathan Haidt presented people with a range of peculiar stories, each of which depicted behaviour that was harmless (in that no sentient being was hurt) but which also felt "bad" or "wrong." One involved a son who promised his mother, while she was on her deathbed, that he would visit her grave every week, and then reneged on his commitment because he was busy. Another scenario told of a man buying a dead chicken at the supermarket and then having sex with it before cooking and eating it. These weird but essentially harmless acts were, nonetheless, by and large deemed to be immoral.

Further evidence that emotions are in the driving seat of morality surfaces when people are probed on why they take their particular moral positions. In a separate study which asked subjects for their ethical views on consensual incest, most people intuitively felt that incestuous sex is wrong, but when asked why, many gave up, saying, "I just know it's wrong!"—a phenomenon Haidt calls "moral dumbfounding."

It's hard to argue that people are rationally working their way to moral judgements when they can't come up with any compelling reasons—or sometimes any reasons at all—for their moral verdicts. Haidt suggests that the judgements are based on intuitive, emotional responses, and that conscious reasoning comes into its own in creating post hoc justifications for our moral stances. Our powers of reason, in this view, operate more like a lawyer hired to defend a client than a disinterested scientist searching for the truth.

Our rational and rhetorical skill is also recruited from time to time as a lobbyist. Haidt points out that the reasons—whether good or bad—that we offer for our moral views often function to press the emotional buttons of those we wish to bring around to our way of thinking. So even when explicit reasons appear to have the effect of changing people's moral opinions, the effect may have less to do with the logic of the arguments than their power to elicit the right emotional responses. We may win hearts without necessarily converting minds.


A Tale Of Two Faculties

Even if you recognise the tendency to base moral judgements on how moral violations make you feel, you probably would also like to think that you have some capacity to think through moral issues, to weigh up alternative outcomes and make a call on what is right and wrong.

Thankfully, neuroscience gives some cause for optimism. Philosopher-cum-cognitive scientist Joshua Greene of Harvard University and his colleagues have used functional magnetic resonance imaging to map the brain as it churns over moral problems, inspired by a classic pair of dilemmas from the annals of moral philosophy called the Trolley Problem and the Footbridge Problem. In the first, an out-of-control trolley is heading down a rail track, ahead of which are five hikers unaware of the looming threat. On the bank where you're standing is a switch that, if flicked, will send the trolley on to another track on which just one person is walking. If you do nothing, five people die; flick the switch and just one person will die.

To flick or not to flick—what would you do? Like 90 per cent of people, you probably looked at the numbers (saving five and losing one, versus losing five) and decided to hit the switch. Now consider the Footbridge Problem: again, a trolley is heading towards five unsuspecting hikers, but this time there is no switch you can throw to save the hapless hikers. The only way to stop the trolley is to put a heavy weight in front of the impending threat. Unfortunately, the only sufficiently weighty object nearby is a large man standing on the footbridge with you. Do you push him in front of the trolley, and to his death, to save the five hikers? Or is this beyond the pale? Is inaction now mandated?

Even though the numbers are the same as before—losing one life or losing five—most people feel differently about this dilemma: now a clear majority (70–90 per cent in most studies) say it is not morally permissible to push the man, and those that say it is permissible tend to take longer to reach their decision than when reflecting on the Trolley Problem.

What is going on in the brain when people mull over these different scenarios? Thinking through cases like the Trolley Problem—what Greene calls an impersonal moral dilemma as it involves no direct violence against another person—increases activity in brain regions located in the prefrontal cortex that are associated with deliberative reasoning and cognitive control (so-called executive functions). This pattern of activity suggests that impersonal moral dilemmas such as the Trolley Problem are treated as straightforward rational problems: how to maximise the number of lives saved. By contrast, brain imaging of the Footbridge Problem—a personal dilemma that invokes up-close and personal violence—tells a rather different story. Along with the brain regions activated in the Trolley Problem, areas known to process negative emotional responses also crank up their activity. In these more difficult dilemmas, people take much longer to make a decision and their brains show patterns of activity indicating increased emotional and cognitive conflict within the brain as the two appalling options are weighed up.

Greene interprets these different activation patterns, and the relative difficulty of making a choice in the Footbridge Problem, as the sign of conflict within the brain. On the one hand is a negative emotional response elicited by the prospect of pushing a man to his death saying "Don't do it!"; on the other, cognitive elements saying "Save as many people as possible and push the man!" For most people thinking about the Footbridge Problem, emotion wins out; in a minority of others, the utilitarian conclusion of maximising the number of lives saved.

To further explore the causal role of emotions in generating a normal pattern of moral judgements, neuroscientist Antonio Damasio of the University of Southern California and colleagues have looked at the effect on moral judgement of damage to a part of the brain called the ventromedial prefrontal cortex (VMPC), a region previously implicated in processing negative social emotions. Faced with the Trolley Problem, these brain-damaged patients chose like most people with intact brains, opting to flick the switch to save five lives at the expense of one, but in the Footbridge Problem took a coldly rational, utilitarian approach and said that it was morally permissible to throw the fat man in front of the train (using the same "one for five" calculus).

These findings fit in with Greene's dual-processing view of competing affective–cognitive systems. Damage to the VMPC and impairment of the functioning of the emotional system makes little difference in the Trolley Problem, which involves an impersonal action. But with the Footbridge Problem, for patients with damage to the VMPC, there is no counterbalancing emotional voice to question the wisdom of rationality's precepts, and the utilitarian calculus carries the day.


A Moral Grammar

While there is a growing consensus that the moral intuitions revealed by moral dilemmas such as the Trolley and Footbridge problems draw on unconscious psychological processes, there is an emerging debate about how best to characterise these unconscious elements.

On the one hand is the dual-processing view, in which "hot" affectively-laden intuitions that militate against personal violence are sometimes pitted against the ethical conclusions of deliberative, rational systems. An alternative perspective that is gaining increased attention sees our moral intuitions as driven by "cooler," non-affective general "principles" that are innately built into the human moral faculty and that we unconsciously follow when assessing social behaviour.

In order to find out whether such principles drive moral judgements, scientists need to know how people actually judge a range of moral dilemmas. In recent years, Marc Hauser, a biologist and psychologist at Harvard, has been heading up the Moral Sense Test (MST) project to gather just this sort of data from around the globe and across cultures.

The project is casting its net as wide as possible: the MST can be taken by anyone with access to the internet. Visitors to the "online lab" are presented with a series of short moral scenarios—subtle variations of the original Footbridge and Trolley dilemmas, as well as a variety of other moral dilemmas. The scenarios are designed to explore whether, and how, specific factors influence moral judgements. Data from 5,000 MST participants showed that people appear to follow a moral code prescribed by three principles:

• The action principle: harm caused by action is morally worse than equivalent harm caused by omission.

• The intention principle: harm intended as the means to a goal is morally worse than equivalent harm foreseen as the side-effect of a goal.

• The contact principle: using physical contact to cause harm to a victim is morally worse than causing equivalent harm to a victim without using physical contact.

Crucially, the researchers also asked participants to justify their decisions. Most people appealed to the action and contact principles; only a small minority explicitly referred to the intention principle. Hauser and colleagues interpret this as evidence that some principles that guide our moral judgments are simply not available to, and certainly not the product of, conscious reasoning. These principles, it is proposed, are an innate and universal part of the human moral faculty, guiding us in ways we are unaware of. In a (less elegant) reformulation of Pascal's famous claim that "The heart has reasons that reason does not know," we might say "The moral faculty has principles that reason does not know."

The notion that our judgements of moral situations are driven by principles of which we are not cognisant will no doubt strike many as implausible. Proponents of the "innate principles" perspective, however, can draw succour from the influential Chomskyan idea that humans are equipped with an innate and universal grammar for language as part of their basic design spec. In everyday conversation, we effortlessly decode a stream of noise into meaningful sentences according to rules that most of us are unaware of, and use these same rules to produce meaningful phrases of our own. Any adult with normal linguistic competence can rapidly decide whether an utterance or sentence is grammatically valid or not without conscious recourse to the specific rules that determine grammaticality. Just as we intuitively know what we can and cannot say, so too might we have an intuitive appreciation of what is morally permissible and what is forbidden.

Marc Hauser and legal theorist John Mikhail of Georgetown University have started to develop detailed models of what such an "innate moral grammar" might look like. Such models usually posit a number of key components, or psychological systems. One system uses "conversion rules" to break down observed (or imagined) behaviour into a meaningful set of actions, which is then used to create a "structural description" of the events. This structural description captures not only the causal and temporal sequence of events (what happened and when), but also intentional aspects of action (was the outcome intended as a means or a side effect? What was the intention behind the action?).

With the structural description in place, the causal and intentional aspects of events can be compared with a database of unconscious rules, such as "harm intended as a means to an end is morally worse than equivalent harm foreseen as the side-effect of a goal." If the events involve harm caused as a means to the greater good (and particularly if caused by the action and direct contact of another person), then a judgement of impermissibility is more likely to be generated by the moral faculty. In the most radical models of the moral grammar, judgements of permissibility and impermissibility occur prior to any emotional response. Rather than driving moral judgements, emotions in this view arise as a by-product of unconsciously reached judgements as to what is morally right and wrong.

Just as an innate, universal grammar for languages doesn't entail that all people will speak the same language, the idea of a universal moral grammar should not be taken to imply that systems of ethics will be the same the world over. For example, the grammar for language might say that all grammatical sentences must contain a subject, a verb and an object, but leave open which order they must appear in. So some languages, such as English, settle on a subject–verb–object order, and others, such as Japanese, on subject–object–verb.

Hauser argues that a similar "principles and parameters" model of moral judgement could help make sense of universal themes in human morality as well as differences across cultures (see below). There is little evidence about how innate principles are affected by culture, but Hauser has some expectations as to what might be found. If the intention principle is really an innate part of the moral faculty, then its operation should be seen in all cultures. However, cultures might vary in how much harm as a means to a goal they typically tolerate, which in turn could reflect how extensively that culture sanctions means-based harm such as infanticide (deliberately killing one child so that others may flourish, for example). These intriguing though speculative ideas await a thorough empirical test.

A full account of our moral psychology will also have to explain the variation in people's moral intuitions. Why do a minority of people think it is morally permissible to push the man in the Footbridge dilemma? Part of the answer is that people are likely to differ in the way their brains balance up affective or emotional responses with rational calculations. Such differences could result from as yet unidentified genetic factors or aspects of the environment and culture that tweak a common universal set of moral foundations.

Moral psychology also has to grapple with the problem of how and why societal norms of moral conduct change over time. Take attitudes towards homosexuals in developed western countries, which have changed enormously over the past 50 years. Arguments put forward by gay-rights advocates have undoubtedly played a part in shifting views about homosexuals. Yet the research on moral intuitions suggests that changes in the network of affective responses elicited by the thought of gays—driven by increased exposure to positive portrayals of gays in the media, for example—are likely to have been crucial to increasing acceptance.

Morality is a social phenomenon, and so it is little surprise that the way our social lives are structured—whether we live in small, tight-knit communities or large, anonymous cities—also sculpts our moral outlook. Haidt suggests that it is no coincidence that rural areas of the US, where communities are more bound together and interdependent, tend to be more conservative and religious, while urban dwellers tend to be more secular and liberal, with a focus on "individualising" ethics (see below). Viewed this way, the faultlines in the ongoing culture wars begin to come into focus, and the geographical distribution of red and blue states in the 2004 presidential election starts to make more sense.

Although current studies have only begun to scratch the surface, the take-home message is clear: intuitions that function below the radar of consciousness are most often the wellsprings of our moral judgements. Of course, the new wave of moral psychologists and neuroscientists are not the first to draw on the power of unconscious processes to explain the operation of the human mind. Freudian approaches have long stressed the role of unconscious thoughts, often with a sexual or aggressive edge to them, as drivers of both our behaviour and mental conflict. Yet the view of the non-conscious moral mind that is emerging bears little resemblance to the dark Freudian underworld of repressed memories, frustrated desires and unpalatable thoughts.

Despite the knocking it has received, reason is clearly not entirely impotent in the moral domain. We can reflect on our moral positions and, with a bit of effort, potentially revise them. An understanding of our moral intuitions, and the unconscious forces that fuel them, give us perhaps the greatest hope of overcoming them.



Moral cultures

Studies in moral psychology have typically looked at two core areas of moral concern: harm and fairness. A number of researchers are now arguing that this focus needs to be expanded, and recent studies of morality across cultures are producing signs that issues of harm and fairness are just a subset of the moral world inhabited by the majority of the planet.

Psychologist and cultural anthropologist Richard Shweder of the University of Chicago has long argued that the moral concepts found throughout the world cluster into at least three overlapping ethical domains: the ethics of autonomy (individual rights and fairness), community (respects for tradition, authority and group loyalty) and divinity (sanctity and purity of the soul).

Different cultural traditions place a different emphasis on the importance of each domain in navigating the moral realm. So while protecting the domain of divinity is a ubiquitous concern in the Indian subcontinent, liberal, educated westerners typically place the ethics of autonomy at the centre of their moral worldview.

Recently, Jonathan Haidt, along with Jesse Graham and Craig Joseph, has suggested an expansion of Shweder's three domains into five foundations for morality. Haidt, Graham and Joseph propose that the world's diverse moralities are built on top of five psychological foundations, each primed to detect and react emotionally to transgressions or violations of different moral concerns: harm to, and care, of individuals; justice and fairness; in-group loyalty; respect for authority/tradition; and issues of purity and sanctity.

Although we're all equipped with these psychological foundations, the ones that are actually built on varies across and within cultures. Using questionnaires, Haidt and Joseph have found that self-identified liberals in the US typically draw on the harm/care and justice/fairness in deciding moral issues. By contrast, religious and social conservatives generally take all five foundations to be relevant to their moral judgements. So when liberals and conservatives disagree, at stake is not just whose rights should be protected and how, but what counts as a legitimate moral concern in the first place. It is little wonder people so frequently talk past each other in the emotionally charged atmosphere of moral disputes.

There is also evidence that the different moral structures built on the universal five foundations are related to different emotional dispositions of conservatives and liberals. Recent work by David Pizarro and Yoel Inbar of Cornell University, in collaboration with Paul Bloom, a psychologist at Yale University, has explored how the morally charged emotion, disgust, which is frequently evoked by transgressions in the domain of purity, relates to these competing social orientations. The researchers found that the more disgust sensitive a person is, the more likely they are to hold conservative views on a range of social issues. Perhaps unsurprisingly, this link was strongest for the hot-button topics of abortion and gay marriage, views on which are heavily affected by attitudes to bodily purity.

None of this is to say that either the conservative or liberal outlook is inherently "better" than the other. Nor is it to suggest that you should expand the domain of your moral concerns if you're a liberal, or contract it if you're conservative, to settle on the "proper" moral domain. At the same time, however, such insights are not irrelevant to thinking about moral debates. A deeper appreciation of the roles the five proposed foundations for morality play in the moral visions of people with different backgrounds can be useful in its own right. Such an understanding has the potential to increase the sensitivity of disputants in moral debates to the mindset of those they seek to engage with or persuade. At the very least, it might be desirable to know thy enemy.

Take the Moral Sense Test
Explore your own morality

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1. Comment #175434 by Jack Rawlinson on May 5, 2008 at 12:10 pm

 avatarInteresting, although unsurprising. It's always seemed fairly clear to me that there is a "gut level" aspect behind at least some of our "moral reflexes", but that most of us make the additional effort to use reason to hone our morality into something more substantial, fair and justifiable. Refusing to refine "gut morality" in this way is no more admirable than refusing to hone "gut sexuality" ("I want that attractive person so I will take her/him, by force if necessary").

The questions about "killing one to save five" are also interesting. I remember doing some questionnaires which featured those questions and they certainly do give you pause. With reflection it's pretty easy to understand why it seems easier to sacrifice the single person when all you have to do is flick a switch and initiate a secondary series of events, rather than having to directly kill the person yourself. Similar "removal" makes it easier to be a meat-eater when you don't have to slaughter and prepare the animal yourself, or a supporter of war when you don't have to do the fighting yourself. There are countless other examples.

The "flick of a switch" example also powerfully illustrates one aspect of why guns are more dangerous weapons than, say, knives or baseball bats. To kill someone with a gun is not only much more physically simple, it can be done at one remove from the victim and it can be done with the minimum of effort. You do not have to get as up-close and personal with a gun as you do with a knife or a cudgel. You do not have to struggle. You do not have to face the possibility of having the bloody consequences of your action splashed all over your nice shirt, You don't have to look your victim in the eye and watch him die. And so on. It's no surprise that this factor in the gun control argument is usually overlooked or played down by gun control opponents.

The conclusion is that in general the more removed we are from the consequences of our moral decisions, the easier it is to make them. In some ways this is a good thing - it allows us to get on with our lives without endless agonising over every ethical choice - but in a crucial sense it is a bad thing, especially where our moral decisions affect others. Examples featuring death or injury make the point most powerfully and I think everyone should try to consider what their difficult moral choices really mean at root. You may only be flicking a switch, but you're still killing a man.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

2. Comment #175450 by ChrisMcL on May 5, 2008 at 12:47 pm

 avatar"divinity (sanctity and purity of the soul)"

Seriously, I really don't understand what that means. I have had little exposure to this kind of "god-talk". I know that souls don't exist, divinity is something related to gods, and that sanctity can mean precious.

Is Shweder trying to say that religious belief is one of the three ethical domains?

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3. Comment #175481 by Spinoza on May 5, 2008 at 1:42 pm

 avatarThis is almost totally irrelevant to Ethics as a discipline.

The foundations of what people often CALL "morality" is important, to be sure...

But it sheds absolutely no light on normativity per se, and science journalism needs to stop pretending that it does.

Scientists should indeed be investigating the biology and evolution of socio-cultural values, but leave the Ethics to the philosophers (at least, for now).

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4. Comment #175508 by RSP on May 5, 2008 at 2:19 pm

"Despite the knocking it has received, reason is clearly not entirely impotent in the moral domain. We can reflect on our moral positions and, with a bit of effort, potentially revise them. An understanding of our moral intuitions, and the unconscious forces that fuel them, give us perhaps the greatest hope of overcoming them."

Well gosh, who would have seen it coming. The day academia admits maybe humans aren't just miserable animals who can never know reality. Of course an idea like this would have to come from the scientific end, because you'd never hear it from the philosophic end.

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5. Comment #175543 by Spinoza on May 5, 2008 at 2:58 pm

 avatarRSP, um, try Christine Korsgaard's "The Sources of Normativity".

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6. Comment #175558 by Cartomancer on May 5, 2008 at 3:31 pm

 avatarChrisMcL, comment #2

I suspect this mysterious element of "Purity" or "Divinity" or whatever the researchers call it is actually just a shorthand way of describing evolved concerns for physical or mental health and wellbeing. Visceral concepts of "purity" and "pollution" derive pretty directly from our instinctive desire not to become ill or injured, not to expose ourselves to sources of infection, harrowing experiences and so forth.

I would quibble with the semantics they use, but the sentiment seems a sound one.

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7. Comment #175562 by phiwilli on May 5, 2008 at 3:43 pm

Over and over the article, and apparently those it cites, refer to what "most people do," or what "most people think." What is the relevance of majority opinion, even huge majority opinion, to what is right? Or to anything else? Maybe most people (in the US, and maybe lots of other places outside western Europe, think evolution is false. So what? If surveys like those had been done in medieval times, or in tribal societies today, etc., I suspect the results would be rather different. So what? What if the investigators asked about witchcraft, or whether the sun orbits the earth, or . . .

And how do they explain the minority who don't think like "most people"?

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8. Comment #175569 by Cartomancer on May 5, 2008 at 3:56 pm

 avatarLets do a little study to see whether philosophy or science can help people to lead more moral lives.

Find two identical deserted islands. Strand a group of scientifically illiterate philosophers on one of them with five works of ethical philosophy. Strand a group of philosophically illiterate scientists on the other with five works of cognitive psychology. Check back at regular intervals to observe the moral progress or decline. First island to achieve a perfectly harmonious, maximally happy and productive society wins.

Anyone caught fondling Nietzche's Der Wille zur Macht or making paper hats from Chomsky is automatically disqualified.

You could set up a third island full of priests and theologians too, but it's probably wise not to give them one with a volcano on it, for fear of who they might decide to throw in.

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9. Comment #175586 by aquilacane on May 5, 2008 at 4:30 pm

 avatar"Greene interprets these different activation patterns, and the relative difficulty of making a choice in the Footbridge Problem, as the sign of conflict within the brain. On the one hand is a negative emotional response elicited by the prospect of pushing a man to his death saying "Don't do it!"; on the other, cognitive elements saying "Save as many people as possible and push the man!" For most people thinking about the Footbridge Problem, emotion wins out; in a minority of others, the utilitarian conclusion of maximising the number of lives saved."

First of all, no one in this position would have time to think, so the test is faulty. I doubt any of the people who said they would push the man would have pushed the man. I doubt they would have considered the man as a suitable object for stopping a runaway cart, it is after all a man. Once the option of pushing the man is planted; however, only then do they consider it and take time to think about it, of course, the cart would have raced past by now and it wouldn't have mattered.

There is also the problem that we did not evolve with the ability to kill a person at the push of a button or flick of a switch, we had to use our hands. We don't associate button pushing as killing quite the same way we do throttling a person to death, I expect you could ask a fighter pilot, especially one who has killed with their hands.

As well, if I'm seen pushing the man I cannot say I didn't do it, if I flick a switch I can say I didn't realize what would happen. Each step between the cause and effect separates us from ownership. Self preservation surely plays a role, I can hear the excuses in my head. I figured the cart was going to fast and would crash from the abrupt change, I did everything I could, blah blah blah. You can't talk your way out of pushing someone off a bridge though.

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10. Comment #175592 by Geoff on May 5, 2008 at 4:48 pm

 avatar8. Comment #175569 by Cartomancer
Lets do a little study to see whether philosophy or science can help people to lead more moral lives.

Find two identical deserted islands. Strand a group of scientifically illiterate philosophers on one of them with five works of ethical philosophy. Strand a group of philosophically illiterate scientists on the other with five works of cognitive psychology. Check back at regular intervals to observe the moral progress or decline. First island to achieve a perfectly harmonious, maximally happy and productive society wins.


Um. Not sure how long the philosophers would survive...meanwhile the scientists have built a boat and reached the mainland!

Other Comments by Geoff

11. Comment #175622 by alovrin on May 5, 2008 at 6:14 pm

 avatar
Anyone caught fondling Nietzche's Der Wille zur Macht or making paper hats from Chomsky is automatically disqualified.

You could set up a third island full of priests and theologians too, but it's probably wise not to give them one with a volcano on it, for fear of who they might decide to throw in.


Thats hilarious.

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12. Comment #175646 by Ascaphus on May 5, 2008 at 7:19 pm

 avatarJack said:
...The conclusion is that in general the more removed we are from the consequences of our moral decisions, the easier it is to make them. In some ways this is a good thing...


I remember from back in my TV days an episode of "The Twilight Zone." A couple is given a black box with a single button on top. The stranger giving them the box tells them that if they push the button, nothing will happen to them and nobody will ever know, but they will receive a million bucks and somebody they don't even know will die. If they don't push the button, the box will just be given to somebody else. The whole story is them agonizing about whether or not to push the button. Of course after they push the button and the stranger is now exchanging the box for the million $, they are told that the box will be given to somebody they don't even know!

I think you're right on about the weapons, also. Much has been written about the advent of remote weapons and its effect on moral compunctions.

Not much new here, but it's nice to see it getting press for a general audience. It's amazing how much of this people are unaware of. I get questions all the time from faith types "...but if morals don't come from god, how do we know right from wrong...?" and so on.

Matt

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13. Comment #175651 by MPhil on May 5, 2008 at 7:30 pm

 avatarCarto,
Nietzche's Der Wille zur Macht


Oh come on you old historiographer, you should know there never was such a book by Nietzsche. That was a fabrication by his sister.

And if you take moral philosophers and political philosophers, I'm actually not at all sure the Not at all.

EDIT: arrg... something stole my brain when I wrote that last sentence... see below for an explanation. :)

Other Comments by MPhil

14. Comment #175690 by Don_Quix on May 5, 2008 at 9:56 pm

 avatarI find it difficult to understand how any complex higher organism could possibly get to where they are now without evolving relatively early on some sort of basic system that punishes things which generally end in bad outcomes (death), and rewards things which generally end in good outcomes (living for another day so you can have a chance to reproduce).

This is essentially, on a very basic level, morality.

I find it even harder to understand how some modern, highly evolved animals (such as ourselves), can't see this is why the vast majority of us don't rob, and rape, and kill each other every single day. Sure, some do, but the vast majority don't...and they DON'T WANT TO (and probably wouldn't even if they could get away with it).

Morality makes absolute evolutionary sense. At least a very simple form of morality is reflected in all higher mammals that currently exist on Earth. I do not understand why many people (humans) can't recognize this.

If our early ancestors hadn't evolved some basic sense of morality very early on, we (Homo Sapiens) wouldn't be here! Morality is an evolutionary necessity, because it increases the likelihood of your particular groups survival. It's as simple as that, I think. But that is just my uneducated opinion :)

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15. Comment #175695 by Cartomancer on May 5, 2008 at 10:13 pm

 avatar
you should know there never was such a book by Nietzsche. That was a fabrication by his sister.
It was going to be Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics, but just this once I thought I'd push the boat out and choose something a bit more modern - for the sake of those on here who prefer their philosophers in three piece suits rather than gathered robes. Quite what made me go for the mad Prussian with the moustache is anyone's guess though (unless his sister fabricated the moustache too...).

Just goes to show what happens when an impressionable medievalist ventures away from the certainties of scholastic learning into the dim and murky depths of the nineteenth century...

Though, irrespective of its provenance, it is still a book, containing moral philosophy, composed by someone called Nietzche! And fondling it is still going to be severely frowned upon...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

16. Comment #175699 by MPhil on May 5, 2008 at 10:38 pm

 avatarCarto,

...the mad but brilliant Prussian, please :)

The will to power was of course a major theme in Nietzsche's thinking... and he did plan to write a book with that title, but his illness made that impossible. His sister Elisabeth Foerster Nietzsche and his fried Peter Gast edited some of his notes and published them as "Der Wille zur Macht". One should also note that his sister fabricated some notes, edited some others together in a way for them to have totally different context-meaning than in their original appearance and generally tinkered with his work... she imposed her own ideas onto her brother's work. And she was very much a friend of Hitler and the Nazis, which is why her tinkering with her brothers work made it far more open to exploitation by the Nazis.

Despicable woman.

Anyway - I do think the moustache was his own. (You just gave me the weird idea of Elisabeth painting moustaches on all his pictures :)

The reason why I think moral and political philosophers would indeed be better at the task you supposed is because it is a task at the centre of which is thinking about moral normativity, not descriptive morality.

The scientists could figure out the descriptive side of moral psychology... which is important for philosophers as well. But the task would still be normative.

Of course the problem is that there is no general fact of the matter about which first-order moral approach is the right one, there would be substantial disagreement between the philosophers. But there are facts of the matter in descriptive morality and descriptive (cognitive neuro-)psychology of morality.
That wouldn't help the scientists one bit though in approaching the normative task.

There are still facts in moral philosophy - the facts that any consequentialist approach requires for example. Or the facts about the content of the moral character of the individual, and of groups of individuals.

I think that if the philosophers were to agree on something like a very detailed Rawls/Scanlon model (with perhaps some utilitarian infusion), they could do the job not perfectly, but better than the scientists.

Perhaps the certainties of scholastic learning (if you refer to the content) were unwarranted certainties? And the murky depths of the 19th century (especially Neitzsche, who was -I think- very correct in his analyses of culture on the brink of modernity and post-modernity) perhaps got it entirely right that there are little certainties, but many social constructs, which comprise the murky depths that they laid bare.

Just a thought.

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17. Comment #175701 by jwdink on May 5, 2008 at 10:44 pm

This is almost totally irrelevant to Ethics as a discipline. The foundations of what people often CALL "morality" is important, to be sure... But it sheds absolutely no light on normativity per se, and science journalism needs to stop pretending that it does. Scientists should indeed be investigating the biology and evolution of socio-cultural values, but leave the Ethics to the philosophers (at least, for now).


I'd be curious to know what you mean by this. I thought, since Hume, it's been well established that there is no separate morality outside of what we "call" it. The question is not "is human nature the place to establish ethics?" (what else would be) but rather "what is the best way to examine human nature?" Are you denying that it's some sort of scientific endeavor?

Now, I'll grant that philosophy needs to step in to give that prescriptive/normative push, to decide whether stuff like "sanctity" is a separate moral motivator from "justice" or whether it's just an heuristic shortcut. But you seem to think that the science is useless. Can you explain?

(PS: One of my favorite quotes from Daniel Dennett:

"Ethics must somehow be based on an appreciation of human natureâ€"on a sense of what a human being is or might be, and on what a human being might want to have or want to be. If that is naturalism, then naturalism is no fallacy. No one could seriously deny that ethics is responsive to such facts about human nature. We may just disagree about where to look for the most telling facts about human natureâ€"in novels, in religious texts, in psychological experiments, in biological or anthropological innovations. The fallacy is not naturalism, but rather, any simple-minded attempt to rush from facts to values.")

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18. Comment #175707 by MPhil on May 5, 2008 at 11:09 pm

 avatarjwdink,

I can only give you my perspective as a philosopher, but for what it's worth:

Science is only ever descriptive. If we want a first order ethical theory, this is a normative, prescriptive endeavour, entirely. Not just a "push".

I think any first order moral theory needs to take into account as many relevant facts about human beings (psychological, physiological, social) as it can. That's where science is essential. But the main task is still developing a theory of what these moral values, to which we, in virtue of taking into account all the relevant facts and comparing different strategies, do not rush, are, or rather 'should be', since moral values are constructed, not found.

Only with knowing a lot about human nature can we begin to construct a coherent first order ethical theory that can successfully be applied to any situation.

Still, the main task here is the normative/prescriptive one. I don't think Spinoza thinks that science is entirely useless here.

But he is right in stating, as I have laid out, that knowing the (neuro-)psychological facts about how we make moral judgements etc are irrelevant to the prescriptive task.

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19. Comment #175710 by Spinoza on May 5, 2008 at 11:16 pm

 avatar
I'd be curious to know what you mean by this. I thought, since Hume, it's been well established that there is no separate morality outside of what we "call" it. The question is not "is human nature the place to establish ethics?" (what else would be) but rather "what is the best way to examine human nature?" Are you denying that it's some sort of scientific endeavor?


Hume established no such thing. In fact the IS/OUGHT Gap (Hume's Fork) establishes exactly the opposite.

You CANNOT derive an ought from an is.

This is basic first year undergraduate philosophy, and can be briefly checked over here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Is-ought_problem

Your last question strikes me as incoherent... but maybe there is something else you have in mind that wasn't conveyed directly.

You seem to have clearly and completely misunderstood me.

Now, I'll grant that philosophy needs to step in to give that prescriptive/normative push, to decide whether stuff like "sanctity" is a separate moral motivator from "justice" or whether it's just an heuristic shortcut. But you seem to think that the science is useless. Can you explain?


First of all, philosophers do two sorts of things in ethical philosophy. The first is meta-ethics. This is the study of what sort of thing moral judgments are ABOUT. That is, what sort of thing a moral fact is, if such a thing exists at all.

The reason it is given the appendage "meta-" is that it is about the underlying [ontological] status of Ethics proper (the second thing ethical philosophers do, or as we call it, Normativity, Normative Ethics, or Practical Reason).

The dichotomy runs sort of like this:

Either (1) Moral judgments point to properties we arrive at through the senses in objects, in which case, our being right or wrong in a given case is dependent on our correctly identifying these properties. Or, (2) Moral judgments are subjective attitudes or expressions or projections outward onto the world.

In the former case, you have to deal with the charge of the anti-realists (like Ayer and Mackie) that such "moral properties" would be QUEER. That is, they seem to be super-natural, since moral goodness CERTAINLY can't be reduced to any particular natural property (as Moore famously phrased it, morality is such that we can say "What is good is whatever has some natural property, G." (say, "increases happiness"), and yet, we can say "X has G, but is X good?" for any X. That is, the question "Is X Good?" remains open).

In the latter case, the subjectivist (or anti-realist), is subject to the Frege-Geach problem of unasserted contexts.

The solution there is to either be an error theorist (a moral SKEPTIC), like Mackie, and simply say that no one is entitled to say that anyone is more or less correct on any moral issue whatsoever; OR, (and this is undoubtedly better) you had better be able to formulate a "logic of attitudes" such that the Frege-Geach problem is resolved. [by the way, you can just google "Frege-Geach problem" to find out what I'm talking about... not enough room to explain].

I particularly like Simon Blackburn's Quasi-Realism.

But I also think Richard Boyd's "Cornell Realism" is quite good (he argues that "goodness" is a homeostatic property cluster of natural kinds that can be determined and measured by looking at the prosperity and flourishing of a society, of course, we must not simply say "I like that!" and thereby wish that it be true, we must examine his case, and determine whether it stands up to criticism. Such is philosophy.)

Two great seminal (and short) papers in meta-ethics I'd recommend to anyone here are:

Simon Blackburn's "How to Be an Ethical Anti-Realist"

And conversely, Richard Boyd's "How to Be A Moral Realist".

And just to make something QUITE clear, no I CERTAINLY do not think science is useless. I just think that moral psychology is in a ridiculous state of affairs at the moment, and is apt to make grievous errors in judgment since it has not been established just WHAT exactly a "moral value" actually is (or if such a thing exists at all!)

By all means, let's study why and how people have come to both say that (and sometimes act as though) they value certain things.

Let us not thereby say that we have established the status of correct and incorrect moral judgments on that basis.

That would be folly.


... I have sort of ignored Normativity theory... which is interesting because that's the directly prescriptive part of moral philosophy... But the point of all this is really to say that it looks an awful lot like Moral Psychologists are making broad-brush assumptions on the normative level...

I had the opportunity to talk with Patricia Churchland (famous Neurophilosopher) recently, and she brought up all the examples of thought-experiments and the data collected that are mentioned in this article... and of course, made the ubiquitous joke in neurophilosophy circles, that it has been shown that if you have lesions on your PFC, you'll be a Utilitarian, and if not, you'll be a Kantian.

That is, people with impaired emotional circuitry evaluate moral scenarios like the Trolley-car case, or the pushing the fat guy off the bridge case, in an unwittingly, and unfailingly utilitarian manner.

People with intact emotional circuitry tend to fall on the "Kantian" (never treat people as the means to an end, only as ends in themselves) side of things...


And to me, NEITHER of these theories is given any support by this data.

And nor should they be. They're both wrong!

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20. Comment #175711 by RSP on May 5, 2008 at 11:19 pm

I have been taking the tests for fun. I have to say I do not understand how they derive meaningful data from these questions. Maybe it's just my gross inadequacy in statistics lol. But many of them seem so deliberately structured and made with language of either the far right, or left or nothing else. They are so vague it's really ambiguous a lot of the time. Not to mention they are almost all setup in emergency situations, where morality seems so incredibly capricious depending on important details that arent put forth.

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21. Comment #175713 by MPhil on May 5, 2008 at 11:36 pm

 avatarSpinoza,

good post, but some small problems:

1.Mackie's anti-realism, namely error-theory, does not fall prey to the Frege-Geach problem. Error-theory is different from pure emotivism or prescriptivism.
The error theory solves the truth-value problem of Geach.

2.The Queerness-argument is not the only one. And it again has several parts. Of specific interest are the ontological and the epistemological one. Even if one does not subscribe to Mackie's ontological critique of moral realism, the epistemological one still holds.

3.I don't think Cornell Realism is a solution, because it again faces the queerness-objection, specifically the epistemological one.

4. Blackburn's solution is more appealing, but I don't think it provides a sufficient justification for rejecting error-theory. Introducing "quasi" makes the whole thing an ontological mess.

:)

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22. Comment #175714 by MPhil on May 5, 2008 at 11:37 pm

 avatar...also, Hume is quite as uncontroversial as many seem to think.

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23. Comment #175717 by Spinoza on May 5, 2008 at 11:42 pm

 avatar1. MPhil, I don't think I implied your point (1). I specifically said that Error theory AVOIDS the Frege-Geach problem (i.e. by being a sceptic you don't fall prey to it). [admittedly, the opening sentence of that section of my post is a little vague, and seems to imply that the Frege-Geach problem applies generally to all subjectivist positions, which is corrected immediately in the next sentence... the idea being that a naive subjectivist is probably not an error theorist until they meet Mackie! hehe].

2. You're right about Queerness, I glossed over it rather quickly (this is a web-forum, not a philosophy seminar, after all!)

3. I agree. But I have aspirations of combining Boyd's Cornell Realism with Blackburn's Quasi-realism in a kind of synthesis to make a better theory!!! (shhh!!! Don't steal my idea! lol)

4. I particularly like the line where Blackburn says that "What matters in the case of bear-baiting is not the attitude you or any observer has toward bear-baiting, but the attitude the bear has toward it."

Surely that is, if not damning, quite incriminating to a hardened error theorist like Mr. Mackie, no? :P

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24. Comment #175721 by Spinoza on May 5, 2008 at 11:50 pm

 avatarUpon reflection, I don't think that Cornell Realism is necessarily subject to epistemic queerness. I think there are several ways out of that problem.

... Especially given that Boyd is a naturalist, not a non-naturalist.

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25. Comment #175730 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 12:03 am

 avatarSpinoza,
ad 1. Oh well, I think I got hung up on the vagueness in your statement. Honest mistake.

ad 3... interesting, but I just cannot see how you would get out of the ontological mess that both quasi-realism and cornell realism get you in (in my opinion)

ad 4 and "boyd is a naturalist" - see, that's it. I don't think the ontological commitments of quasi-realism and cornell-realism are what the proponents think they are, or rather, I don't think they are compatible with naturalism as I see it.

I don't really see that this is incriminating to an error-theorist, since seeing it as such would be begging the question against the premises, which aren't shared after all.

Anyway - you're right, this isn't a philosophy seminar... let's leave it at that :)

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26. Comment #175731 by Spinoza on May 6, 2008 at 12:06 am

 avatarAgreed. There is certainly debate to be had.

(perhaps we should/could continue this on some sort of Messenger or Facebook chat?... I would be interested in engaging your scepticism about quasi and Cornell realism...)

.. as for the topic of this thread... I'm not really sure what it tells us about morality per se... rather, it really only seems to shed light on why different people SAY different things are "moral" (ignoring entirely the question of who is right).

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27. Comment #175733 by epeeist on May 6, 2008 at 12:18 am

 avatarComment #175731 by Spinoza

(perhaps we should/could continue this on some sort of Messenger or Facebook chat?... I would be interested in engaging your scepticism about quasi and Cornell realism...)
Please keep the conversation here. I, and I suspect a number of others, find it interesting. And if it isn't rational and clear thinking then I don't know what is.

And it is vastly better than the lunacies of the recent theist drive-bys.

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28. Comment #175734 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 12:18 am

 avatar
(perhaps we should/could continue this on some sort of Messenger or Facebook chat?... I would be interested in engaging your scepticism about quasi and Cornell realism...)


Difficult at the moment - a lot of studying to do... turing machines, Goedel's incompleteness theorems, recursive algorithms, arithmatization of basic mathematical operations as recursive algorithms for implementation in turing machines, the logic and logical problems of reductionism in philosophy of science, Timothy Williamson's "knowledge and its limits" etc...

Next semester break would be possible :)
I'm not really sure what it tells us about morality per se... rather, it really only seems to shed light on why different people SAY different things are "moral" (ignoring entirely the question of who is right).


What is morality? Morality consistes of judgements , dispositions and other behaviour - the structures of that behaviour. It is certainly interesting to learn how these are implemented, what the role of emotional centres and cognitive centres is, what the role of speech centres is etc. Can tell us a lot about actual morality.

Ethics is not all about "who's right"... mostly it's metaethics and "what is the road to a coherent and successful first order theory"... "who's right" is much too simplistic.

There's so much more to morality. Investigating moral thought and behaviour is certainly interesting and important. It, as I said, tells us a lot about what morality qua moral judgements, dispositions and behaviour is.

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29. Comment #175739 by Spinoza on May 6, 2008 at 12:27 am

 avatarWell, I don't entirely disagree, I just think that without the "ontology" pinned down, so-to-speak (either as non-existent or as natural or as non-natural [this last category is clearly the most unlikely of the three]), the "science" being done cannot with much measure of confidence be said to be talking about what Morality is.

The assumption that investigation of moral talk and behaviour called moral (by some) can tell us about what morality qua moral judgments, dispositions and behaviour is (as you say), is, I think, not a valid assumption.

I think it prudent to understand the distinction between mere moral talk and actually moral judgments/behaviour (i.e., of the Pope saying that contraception is "immoral" [he certainly cannot mean the same thing that I mean when I say "rape is immoral."], or when the Arab Muslim man says "immodest dress is immoral!", because he certainly does not mean by 'immoral' what I mean.)

That is to say, in those, and many (I would venture to say MOST) other cases, people are almost never talking about the same thing when they use the words 'moral' or 'immoral'.

The majority of the world is either a divine command theorist or a simple subjectivist, at least with regard to MOST of their "moral" TALK, and a large portion of their "moral" behaviour. And neither of those has anything to do with 'morality' if the word is to have any meaning at all. (if you follow me).


... By the way, enjoy the reductionism stuff! I love it!!! (one of my favourite areas, aside from meta-ethics and Spinoza, of course!)

... and I'm glad at least one (hopefully some!) others are enjoying this decidedly philosophic discussion in the midst of what I assume was intended to be a Science-oriented thread... I'm happy to oblige with such a worthy interlocutor as MPhil has proven.

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30. Comment #175741 by logical on May 6, 2008 at 12:40 am

 avatarMaybe "innate morals" i.e. how to behave towards another living being has evolved and still has limited use in modern society, but this does NOT apply toward institutions.
As soon as some "infallible" a.k.a. Ratzi Natzi, or some corporate speaker, CEO etc, has a say (s)he is EXPLOITING this instinct.
The very idea that a church, a state or a business incorporation has "rights" means damage to living beings and risk of destruction of the ecosphere. These are organisational forms, nothing more, with NO intrinsical value and they can be changed or done away with without anyone suffering, as soon as they are dysfunctional.

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31. Comment #175744 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 12:44 am

 avatar
The assumption that investigation of moral talk and behaviour called moral (by some) can tell us about what morality qua moral judgments, dispositions and behaviour is (as you say), is, I think, not a valid assumption.


1. They're not just investigating "talk" - they look at the brain-activity when making moral judgements, when forming and expressing opinions on moral problems, and the associated behaviour. Therefore, they do investigate what morality qua judgements, dispositions and behaviour is.

Also, in your third paragraph, you forgot to give the other side of the distinction. I think you have a too narrow view of the meaning of the word "morality". When people talk about moral problems, form and express opinions concerning them, make judgements on moral issues - that is part of what "morality" means.

You are - I think - missing the point. There are situations and dimensions that can only be called moral - any question of right and wrong, of moral values etc. Any behaviour, any approach to these things falls under the category of "morality" in virtue of being an approach to moral problems, moral statements etc.

You can't just say that because people have different approaches, mean different things, and talk differently, that this is not part of what "morality" is.

Morality is also a phenomenon. Namely what I outlined above - judgements, opinions, forming and expressing them, dispostions and other behaviour.

"Mere moral talk" is part of the phenomenon of human morality - as approaches to moral issues.

Therefore this "neither of those has anything to do with 'morality' if the word is to have any meaning at all. " is clearly wrong.

You are restricting the term "morality" to apply only to what moral philosophers (or even only moral philosophers of a certain 'denomination'?) do.
That is entirely unwarranted. You are applying moral judgement already to the issue of what counts as part of the phenomenon of morality. That is quite strange in my opinion.

You make it seem as if you think only someone working out a second order and first order ethical theory with a coherent and applicable account of all the theoretical issues is doing something that falls under the category of "morality" at all. Why?
Morality is also, as I do not tire of stating, a phenomenon... different people approach moral issues differently - and the question of "justified or not", "right or wrong approach", is only a fraction of the entire subject.

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32. Comment #175747 by Spinoza on May 6, 2008 at 1:00 am

 avatarI take it that investigation of the brain-states (neurological correlates) of moral-talk just IS investigation of moral-talk.

It says nothing about the distinction between say:

"Homosexuality is wrong!"

And:

"Murder is wrong!"

And there is certainly a distinction that can (and I think, ought) to be made. That is, the first case is clearly a case of moralizing talk on the part of a dogmatic idiot engaging in culturally inculcated hatred of that which is "different" (and called abominable).

The second points to something quite a lot more fundamental. If anything is wrong, murder is.

That is, murder is a paradigm case of wrongness (to take a Quinean approach), and homosexuality clearly isn't.

Surely we cannot treat these judgments with equal merit qua "moral".

When people talk about moral problems, form and express opinions concerning them, make judgements on moral issues - that is part of what "morality" means.


That has not been established. That is to take some form of expressivism to be correct a priori. And that is certainly not justifiable a priori.

That and you've defined morality circularly here and in a few other areas, i.e.,:

There are situations and dimensions that can only be called moral - any question of right and wrong, of moral values etc. Any behaviour, any approach to these things falls under the category of "morality" in virtue of being an approach to moral problems, moral statements etc.


All you've said here is that moral values (rightness or wrongness) can only be called moral. And then you say that anything falls under that category in virtue of being an approach to problems involving rightness or wrongness.

But that's clearly circular, and doesn't establish anything with regard to when people really ARE talking about moral values, as distinguished from when they are merely indulging their preferences.

I don't think I'm being too narrow here, I think you're being to broad! And as such, we're talking past each other.

You make it seem as if you think only someone working out a second order and first order ethical theory with a coherent and applicable account of all the theoretical issues is doing something that falls under the category of "morality" at all. Why?


That's not exactly true. I simply take it that the philosopher who does those things (in a well reasoned way) can be justified in telling the layman when their moral talk is, itself, wrong (and why).

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33. Comment #175763 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 2:07 am

 avatarI'm sorry Spinoza - but it seems you're completely missing my point.

And making some very strong assumptions on your part. Presupposing a correctness of your first order theory - which is clearly unwarranted for the discussion at hand.

I will try (one last time :) to show you what I mean:

The best section to show you what I mean are, I think, these:

That has not been established. That is to take some form of expressivism to be correct a priori. And that is certainly not justifiable a priori.


No, I am not. Not at all. As I said before, I am not discussing first order rightness or wrongness, and am not presupposing any second order position!!!

All you've said here is that moral values (rightness or wrongness) can only be called moral. And then you say that anything falls under that category in virtue of being an approach to problems involving rightness or wrongness.

But that's clearly circular, and doesn't establish anything with regard to when people really ARE talking about moral values, as distinguished from when they are merely indulging their preferences.


Again, you are misconstruing me completely.

You are making a category mistake. I am not presupposing any ethical position.

The fact is that a problem like "what is the solution to equation phi" is not a moral one, and that issues concerning normative statements or judgements are what we call "moral issues".

THAT is what I meant. There are issues involving questions of moral right and wrong, and there are issues who don't. The first are "moral issues" - and any approach to them is part of the phenomenon of morality.

Hitler had moral opinions - we think they're wrong. I don't think there is an objective matter of fact about that, but only an intersubjective one, and that's enough. But my opinion doesn't matter here - I'm not judging right now. These opinions of Hitler's cannot be called anything else than "Hitler's moral judgements, Hitler's moral opinions".

"Moral" here does not mean "right" - and that is, I think, your most basic mistake - it means "pertaining to issues of moral qualities"... whether he was wrong or not, objectively or not is of no importance for the point I am trying to make. This is still part of the phenomenon of morality.

Whether or not we assume that moral judgements and opinions can be right or wrong, makes no difference at all for this matter. They are still judgements and opinions, positions and dispositions and behaviour pertaining to issues, to questions of "what is 'right', what is 'moral'".

They are concerned with that subject. And that is the definition of morality in a non-normative sense.

You cannot deny that the pope's judgements and expressions on issues of "what is right, what is moral" are judgements about morality. That would be ludicrous.

Thus, my definition is not circular at all - as it does not even touch the question of right or wrong.

We can meaningfully ask "what were Hitler's moral judgements?" "What are the pope's first order ethical positions" "What are his second order (metaethical) position"?

These are questions about their moral beliefs. They concern the phenomenon of people having opinions on questions of "right and wrong". They ask these questions and give answers to them (right or wrong, or neither), but by virtue of that, that is per definition part of the phenomenon of morality.

You are making a category mistake in denying my points by stating "but what they think is clearly immoral" or "what they think is clearly mistaken from a metaethical position". That may be so, but that is not what I was asserting. I was asserting something of an entirely different category, and therefore, denying my points on these grounds is a category mistake.

One more thing:

That is, the first case is clearly a case of moralizing talk on the part of a dogmatic idiot engaging in culturally inculcated hatred of that which is "different" (and called abominable).

The second points to something quite a lot more fundamental. If anything is wrong, murder is.


Petitio principii... thus unwarranted. That's your opinion.

Who is to say that there is anything more to morality than opinions, judgements, dispositions, behaviour on questions of "right and wrong"? That would presuppose that there is a fact of the matter, that there are objective moral values - and that has not been established.

But this is still a different matter than what I discussed above. My definition was not circular, because you were interpreting my position as one about first and second order moral "truths" - which was a category mistake.

Ever heard of "descriptive ethics"? Describing the phenomenon of morality.

I don't need to "establish" that there is a descriptive meaning of "moral" and "morality" as well - it's unquestionable. People ask themselves questions of "what is right and wrong" "what is moral" and/or take positions that attempt to answer these questions, or propose answers to them. This is a fact. You may call it as you like, but there is nothing wrong with calling that "morality", the "phenomenon of morality".

You are - it seems - trapped in the normative dimension. There is a descriptive one, too.

Also, I had to chuckle at this:

doesn't establish anything with regard to when people really ARE talking about moral values, as distinguished from when they are merely indulging their preferences.

...especially in connection to what you said about homosexuality and murder, the pope and the fundamentalist muslim.

This is again a petitio principii - you are presupposing that there are objective values, and that if any, the one conforms to that, the other doesn't.

They certainly do think they "ARE talking about moral values" - AND they certainly, as a matter of fact, are ACTUALLY talking about what they judge to be actually, normatively existing moral values...

And you are doing nothing different, - no one is doing anything other than that in such matters... some have a more coherent position, some less coherent positions, some positions are entirely unjustified, others are more justified - but for everyone it is simply a fact that they are talking about what they judge to be actual, normative, moral values.

It may be true (I don't think so) that some are right when they think they are expressing judgements based on actually existing, normative moral values in a metaphysical sense - but that doesn't matter. It is still true that everyone is actually talking about moral values.

IMPORTANT EDIT:This is a matter of intensional speech here. They ARE definitely talking about that... whether they manage to SUCCESSFULLY refer to such things is a different question.

I simply take it that the philosopher who does those things (in a well reasoned way) can be justified in telling the layman when their moral talk is, itself, wrong (and why).


Yes, he can tell the layman where the arguments are inconclusive, where and why the position is epistemically unjustified etc - but can you prove that the values someone assumes are false and that yours are right? Hardly - we can, I think, only show that values are most likely nothing but social constructs, and that some are more compatible with achieving a society in which certain natural qualities (happiness, minimization of suffering, maximization of liberties) are present. The judgement that these are valuable in themselves is another construct, something that cannot be proven to be true, but has to be agreed upon, and can be agreed upon rationally.

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34. Comment #175829 by Cartomancer on May 6, 2008 at 6:11 am

 avatar
Perhaps the certainties of scholastic learning (if you refer to the content) were unwarranted certainties? And the murky depths of the 19th century (especially Neitzsche, who was -I think- very correct in his analyses of culture on the brink of modernity and post-modernity) perhaps got it entirely right that there are little certainties, but many social constructs, which comprise the murky depths that they laid bare.
Yeah, that was kind of the joke... It's usually the medievals who are described as the murky ones

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35. Comment #175836 by huzonfurst on May 6, 2008 at 6:24 am

About not putting the priests and theologians on an island with a volcano "for fear of who they might throw in" - what's your point? They're all priests and theologians, are they not?

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36. Comment #175840 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 6:27 am

 avatarCarto,

see, just another instance of my sense of humour failing me :)

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37. Comment #175953 by Spinoza on May 6, 2008 at 9:23 am

 avatarAdmittedly, I was extremely tired last night, and it was late, so it's entirely possible I was misreading something..

HOWEVER, you have misunderstood me rather drastically as well.

First of all, no, I didn't presuppose objective values anywhere. I'm actually an anti-realist (that's what quasi-realism actually is, by the way).

Secondly, all I said was that the work being done in moral psychology is not NECESSARILY dealing with morality, and that they need to be careful to note that.

The reason is exactly that philosophers have not ironed out just WHAT morality is.

You seem to not want to make a distinction between moral talk (which often involves things that have nothing to do with morality), and morality per se.

But that's exactly what's at issue here, so simply stating that "It is still true that everyone is actually talking about moral values." is kind of ridiculous. Especially given that I'm not a Realist.

No, they aren't actually necessarily talking about moral values. That CLEARLY implies some kind of infallibility in the moral mechanism, whatever it is. And that certainly cannot be right.

The heart of the issue is this:

Ever heard of "descriptive ethics"? Describing the phenomenon of morality.

I don't need to "establish" that there is a descriptive meaning of "moral" and "morality" as well - it's unquestionable. People ask themselves questions of "what is right and wrong" "what is moral" and/or take positions that attempt to answer these questions, or propose answers to them. This is a fact. You may call it as you like, but there is nothing wrong with calling that "morality", the "phenomenon of morality".


Actually there is clearly something wrong with it.

I already pointed out the intuitive reason. Namely, it puts things like "Girls should wear the hijab." and "Don't murder." on equal footing when they clearly are not (REGARDLESS OF ONTOLOGICAL STATUS).

The way to avoid that sort of silliness (and overstepping of bounds by moral psychology) would simply be for the investigators to note that all they are doing is investigating the neurology of moral talk.

Which is my whole point.

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38. Comment #175991 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 10:25 am

 avatar
You seem to not want to make a distinction between moral talk (which often involves things that have nothing to do with morality), and morality per se.


You are still using "morality" to refer to something pertaining to actual normativity... but when people condemn homosexuality or being jewish or being black, they are still making judgements about morality, what is right and wrong, good and bad. They fail to refer to any really extant moral values, but the still talk about morality - and this is part of what descriptive ethics describe - what moral values people think there are. They are talking about moral values, their behaviour falls under the phenomenon of morality, whether it is actually "moral behaviour" in a normative sense of "moral" or not.

But that's exactly what's at issue here, so simply stating that "It is still true that everyone is actually talking about moral values." is kind of ridiculous. Especially given that I'm not a Realist.


Doesn't matter - moral values need not be construed as metaphysical entities. One need not even hold that there is a matter of fact about morality. One can - like I - think of moral values as social, intersubjective constructs. One still talking implicitly or explicitly about moral values, about morality.

So this:
No, they aren't actually necessarily talking about moral values. That CLEARLY implies some kind of infallibility in the moral mechanism, whatever it is. And that certainly cannot be right.

is clearly wrong. That implies no kind of infallibility, nothing even remotely approaching objectivity... at it states is that this is intensional language.

Let me state again the most important statement for this point: These people talk about moral values. That is what they intend to refer to, whether as objective moral values in a platonist sense, or as deity-dependent moral values, or as social constructs, or as just intuitive, subjective notions.

Whether they actually manage to refer with that speech successfully to something real is open for debate - the point is they (intensional language) talk about moral values, about right and wrong.

Let me give you an example: "Martians are tiny, black creatures with green, roman-style helmets and big white eyes."
This sentence talks about Martians - but it doesn't manage to refer to something real. Still, the speaker (especially one who beliefs this statement to be true) believes to be referring successfully with the term "Martians", and whether or not this is true, he is still (intensional language) talking about Martians. In this talking about something which we know isn't real - but he keeps on talking about. Just as people are talking about God and Pegasus etc.

Just as when the believers talk about god, that falls under the category of religion, - even though there is nothing to which they successfully refer - when Hitler talked about moral values, and when the pope talks about moral values, that is clearly part of the phenomenon of morality.

By stating "(which often involves things that have nothing to do with morality)", you are showing that you are still applying your own moral framework. From the pope's moral theory, the bible and homosexuality have very much to do with morality - from your first order and second order theory (and mine as well), they don't. But from a descriptive, objective perspective - not any normative view. Both we and the pope are making moral judgements, doing "moral talk", expression moral opinions. Not as "opinions that are moral" or "judgements that are moral" with "moral" meaning "morally right", but with "moral" meaning "pertaining to questions about right and wrong, about what ought and ought not to be done etc".

"Moral" does not mean "morally right" - it is used in that way, but "moral" has a broader reference, namely to "pertaining to questions[...]". The other meaning is properly expressed by "morally right" or "morally correct". And that seems to be the mistake you're making. Conflating the two.

So, no infallibility, no objectivity, no truth implied at all.

And again, the neuroscientists are not just investigating moral talk, but also the brain-activity related to judgements, dispositions, opinions and behaviour pertaining to questions about right and wrong, about ought and ought not etc.

And yes, by saying ""homosexuality is wrong" is just 'moral talk'" and ""murder is wrong" is morality" you are implying a certain second and first order view.

Both are parts of Morality as "the behaviour, speech, judgements, opinions, dispositions etc pertaining to questions about right and wrong".
Because this "moral talk" is addressing these issues, just as yours and mine are - and are by virtue of that no different from what the pope or Hitler does/did.

This is where you think there should be a distinction - but that is not correct or warranted - since the above is entirely objective.

If one were a moral realist with entirely different values from Hitler and the Pope, one still would have to affirm the above - and make the distinctions that Hitler/the pope are simply deluded. Their moral theories, moral judgements and opinions, moral behaviour and dispositions (in the above sense) is just wrong. But it is still part of the phenomenon of morality.
They may have a "lack of morality" in the normative sense - ie lacking THE PROPER moral judgements etc, but they don't have a lack of morality in the descriptive sense at all.

Even a moral anti-realist, someone who sees moral values solely as intersubjective constructs, can say that they had morality in the descriptive sense - everyone does - and that their "moral talk" is part of the phenomenon of morality. But objectively their moral theories are unjustified and incoherent, and (inter)subjectively, their moral theories, judgements, opinions, behaviour is just seriously screwed up and wrong.

These are the real, warranted distinctions - not refusing to apply the term "morality" in its descriptive meaning to such phenomena. In the descriptive meaning of "moral", it applies to everything that "pertains to or attempts to address questions of right and wrong".

And again, the scientists are investigating not only talk, but judgements, opinions, dispositions etc. pertaining to questions of right and wrong.

Especially for a moral anti-realist, morality is nothing more than at most a social construct, implemented solely in moral talk, behaviour, dispositions etc.

They can be coherent or incoherent, epistemically justified or not, but they are still what completely comprises morality for the anti-realist, and moral behaviour for the realist.

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39. Comment #175994 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 10:28 am

 avatarAnyway - gotta catch a train. Be back sometime tonight if I don't fall asleep, if not I'm certainly back tomorrow.

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40. Comment #176001 by jwdink on May 6, 2008 at 10:39 am


I'd be curious to know what you mean by this. I thought, since Hume, it's been well established that there is no separate morality outside of what we "call" it. The question is not "is human nature the place to establish ethics?" (what else would be) but rather "what is the best way to examine human nature?" Are you denying that it's some sort of scientific endeavor?


Hume established no such thing. In fact the IS/OUGHT Gap (Hume's Fork) establishes exactly the opposite.

You CANNOT derive an ought from an is.

...

Your last question strikes me as incoherent... but maybe there is something else you have in mind that wasn't conveyed directly.

You seem to have clearly and completely misunderstood me.


I think it's you that's misunderstood me (but I was being extremely unclear). I know ths is-ought problem. Hume established that you cannot derive an 'ought' from an 'is' in an objective sense. So the question is whether there is another way to establish an 'ought' from an 'is'... perhaps not in an objective sense, but in some other meaningful sense. Now, judging from your subsequent discussion of ethics and meta-ethics, you think one can, but it must be grounded in some sort of philosophical discussion about what is good, and how to apply it.

My contention is that such a discussion's foundation is ultimately in our moral intuitions anyways, perhaps rationalizing them or making them consistent. If one decides that the flourishing of society (I'm paraphrasing you here) is "good", what is the foundation for that? The same goes for "happiness" or "following divine law" or whatever one wants to found their ethics on. I'm saying, in a sense, it's all baseless.

But in another sense, it's not baseless-- we just need to be looking more closely at the intuitions themselves, and less closely at our rationalization of them. Such is a study of human nature, and such a study can be well conducted by science, as long as we don't "rush from facts to values." The movement from facts to values is indeed the realm of the philosopher-- I just think these highly speculative exercises and problems that you describe bring us too far away from the ACTUAL facts about human nature, imagining man is something that he's not, and his morality is something that it's not.

Hopefully this clears up my contention. I'll admit that I'm not familiar with the modern philosophical problems and discussion you make reference to, but I get the gist of them... complete relativism/subjectivism vs. some non-relative alternative. I'm saying the alternative is impotent without some sort of foundation (even if it's not objective). I'd be curious to know if you think that there can be a foundation NOT in human nature (and if you could perhaps show me a dumbed down demonstration of what this would look like).


EDIT:
I was skimming over the thread. This clears your position up a bit.

Secondly, all I said was that the work being done in moral psychology is not NECESSARILY dealing with morality, and that they need to be careful to note that.

The reason is exactly that philosophers have not ironed out just WHAT morality is.


This I can agree with. But you seemed to think that philosophers have to figure this stuff out first, then the science might be helpful. I don't see why the two (scientific and philosophic inquiry into morality) can't be concomitant-- as long as neither oversteps its bounds.

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41. Comment #176026 by FreeThink25 on May 6, 2008 at 11:51 am

Spinoza and MPhil

You've struck upon an issue that often comes up when I talk with theists and I wanted to see if you could elucidate it for me.

I'm often told that writings on the evolutionary nature of morality are only descriptive morality and not PRESCRIPTIVE morality, which, I guess they find to be evidence that a God is necessary for moral truths to exist.

I think maybe I read in Richard Carrier's writings that the is/ought problem is solved by adding a premise? Not killing one another IS a beneficial way of having a peaceful society. If one wants to exist in a peaceful society, then one OUGHT not to kill.

I guess what I don't get is this magical element of the OUGHT problem. IS there really an ought problem? Can it not be resolved by agreeing on the goals of what "is" and what one "wants"?

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42. Comment #176136 by MPhil on May 6, 2008 at 4:54 pm

 avatarI forgot:

Secondly, all I said was that the work being done in moral psychology is not NECESSARILY dealing with morality, and that they need to be careful to note that.


This I certainly agree with :) Finally some common ground :)

FreeThink25,

I'm often told that writings on the evolutionary nature of morality are only descriptive morality and not PRESCRIPTIVE morality, which, I guess they find to be evidence that a God is necessary for moral truths to exist.


The theists are right in saying the science can tell us descriptively about morality, but isn't prescriptive.

However, this does in no way - not at all - give them any justification for belief in god, for three reasons:

1)There is no evidence to suggest that metaphysically objective moral values exist

2)Objective moral values are perfectly conceivable without theism, see Plato for example. Since they are supposed to be metaphysical entities, they don't require a creator or indeed a creation, for they are not subject to time.

3)Theistic morality is not objective, but subjective. The values aren't objective, but dependent upon God's will and/or God's supposedly necessary nature. Also see Eutyphro-Dilemma.

You hit upon a very important point in your last two paragraphs: Consequentialism!
There still is an i