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Monday, October 30, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document The God Conundrum

by Sean Carroll

Sean Carroll takes on Eagleton's review. Reposted from:
http://cosmicvariance.com/2006/10/29/the-god-conundrum/

You can read Terry Eagleton's review of The God Delusion here:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,217,Lunging-Flailing-Mispunching,Terry-Eagleton

Some of you may be wondering: "Does God exist?" Fortunately, Richard Dawkins has written a new book, The God Delusion, that addresses precisely this question. As it turns out, the answer is: "No, God does not exist." (Admittedly, Dawkins reached his conclusion before the Cards won the World Series.)

Nevertheless, there remains a spot of controversy — it would appear that Dawkins's rhetorical force is insufficient to persuade some theists. One example is provided by literary critic Terry Eagleton, who reviewed The God Delusion for the London Review of Books. Eagleton's review has already been discussed among some of my favorite blogs: 3 Quarks Daily, Pharyngula, Uncertain Principles, and the Valve (twice), to name a few. But it provides a good jumping-off point for an examination of one of the common arguments used against scientifically-minded atheists: "You're setting up a straw man by arguing against a naive and anthropomorphic view of `God'; if only you engaged with more sophisticated theology, you'd see that things are not so cut-and-dried."

Before jumping in, I should mention that I have somewhat mixed feelings about Dawkins's book myself. I haven't read it very thoroughly, not because it's not good, but for the same reason that I rarely read popular cosmology books from cover to cover: I've mostly seen this stuff before, and already agree with the conclusions. But Dawkins has a strategy that is very common among atheist polemicists, and with which I tend to disagree. That's to simultaneously tackle three very different issues:

1. Does God exist? Are the claims of religion true, as statements about the fundamental nature of the universe?
2. Is religious belief helpful or harmful? Does it do more bad than good, or vice-versa?
3. Why are people religious? Is there some evolutionary-psychological or neurological basis for why religion is so prevalent?

All of these questions are interesting. But, from where I am sitting, the last two are incredibly complicated issues about which it is very difficult to say anything definitive, at least at this point in our intellectual history. Whereas the first one is relatively simple. By mixing them up, the controversial accounts of history and psychology tend to dilute the straightforward claim that there's every reason to disbelieve in the existence of God. When Dawkins suggests that the Troubles in Northern Ireland should be understood primarily as a religious schism between Catholics and Protestants, he sacrifices some of the credibility he may have had if he had stuck to the more straightforward issue of whether or not religion is true.

Right out of the gate, Eagleton bashes Dawkins for dabbling in things he doesn't understand.

Imagine someone holding forth on biology whose only knowledge of the subject is the Book of British Birds, and you have a rough idea of what it feels like to read Richard Dawkins on theology…

What, one wonders, are Dawkins's views on the epistemological differences between Aquinas and Duns Scotus? Has he read Eriugena on subjectivity, Rahner on grace or Moltmann on hope? Has he even heard of them?


These questions, of course, have absolutely no relevance to the matter at hand; they are just an excuse for Eagleton to show off a bit of erudition. If Dawkins is right, and religion is simply a "delusion," a baroque edifice built upon a foundation of mistakes and wishful thinking, then the views of Eriugena on subjectivity are completely beside the point. Not all of theology directly concerns the question of whether or not God exists; much of it accepts the truth of that proposition, and goes from there. The question is whether that's a good starting point. If an architect shows you a grand design for a new high-rise building, you don't have to worry about the floor plan for the penthouse apartment if you notice that the foundation is completely unstable.

But underneath Eagleton's bluster lies a potentially-relevant critique. After all, some sophisticated theology is about whether or not God exists, and more importantly about the nature of God. Eagleton understands this, and gamely tries to explain how the concept of God is different from other things in the world:

For Judeo-Christianity, God is not a person in the sense that Al Gore arguably is. Nor is he a principle, an entity, or "existent": in one sense of that word it would be perfectly coherent for religious types to claim that God does not in fact exist. He is, rather, the condition of possibility of any entity whatsoever, including ourselves. He is the answer to why there is something rather than nothing. God and the universe do not add up to two, any more than my envy and my left foot constitute a pair of objects.


Okay, very good. God, in this conception, is not some thing out there in the world (or even outside the world), available to be poked and prodded and have his beard tugged upon. Eagleton rightly emphasizes that ordinary-language concepts such as "existence" might not quite be up to the task of dealing with God, at least not in the same way that they deal with Al Gore. A precisely similar analysis holds for less controversial ideas, such as the Schrödinger equation. There is a sense in which the Schrödinger equation "exists"; after all, wavefunctions seem to be constantly obeying it. But, whatever it may mean to say "the Schrödinger equation exists," it certainly doesn't mean the same kind of thing as to say "Al Gore exists." We're borrowing a term that makes perfect sense in one context and stretching its meaning to cover a rather different context, and emphasizing that distinction is a philosophically honorable move.

But then we run somewhat off the rails.

This, not some super-manufacturing, is what is traditionally meant by the claim that God is Creator. He is what sustains all things in being by his love; and this would still be the case even if the universe had no beginning. To say that he brought it into being ex nihilo is not a measure of how very clever he is, but to suggest that he did it out of love rather than need. The world was not the consequence of an inexorable chain of cause and effect. Like a Modernist work of art, there is no necessity about it at all, and God might well have come to regret his handiwork some aeons ago. The Creation is the original acte gratuit. God is an artist who did it for the sheer love or hell of it, not a scientist at work on a magnificently rational design that will impress his research grant body no end.


The previous excerpt, which defined God as "the condition of possibility," seemed to be warning against the dangers of anthropomorphizing the deity, ascribing to it features that we would normally associate with conscious individual beings such as ourselves. A question like "Does `the condition of possibility' exist?" would never set off innumerable overheated arguments, even in a notoriously contentious blogosphere. If that were really what people meant by "God," nobody would much care. It doesn't really mean anything — like Spinoza's pantheism, identifying God with the natural world, it's just a set of words designed to give people a warm and fuzzy feeling. As a pragmatist, I might quibble that such a formulation has no operational consequences, as it doesn't affect anything relevant about how we think about the world or act within it; but if you would like to posit the existence of a category called "the condition of possibility," knock yourself out.

But — inevitably — Eagleton does go ahead and burden this innocent-seeming concept with all sorts of anthropomorphic baggage. God created the universe "out of love," is capable of "regret," and "is an artist." That's crazy talk. What could it possibly mean to say that "The condition of possibility is an artist, capable of regret"? Nothing at all. Certainly not anything better-defined than "My envy and my left foot constitute a pair of objects." And once you start attributing to God the possibility of being interested in some way about the world and the people in it, you open the door to all of the nonsensical rules and regulations governing real human behavior that tend to accompany any particular manifestation of religious belief, from criminalizing abortion to hiding women's faces to closing down the liquor stores on Sunday.

The problematic nature of this transition — from God as ineffable, essentially static and completely harmless abstract concept, to God as a kind of being that, in some sense that is perpetually up for grabs, cares about us down here on Earth — is not just a minor bump in the otherwise smooth road to a fully plausible conception of the divine. It is the profound unsolvable dilemma of "sophisticated theology." It's a millenia-old problem, inherited from the very earliest attempts to reconcile two fundamentally distinct notions of monotheism: the Unmoved Mover of ancient Greek philosophy, and the personal/tribal God of Biblical Judaism. Attempts to fit this square peg into a manifestly round hole lead us smack into all of the classical theological dilemmas: "Can God microwave a burrito so hot that He Himself cannot eat it?" The reason why problems such as this are so vexing is not because our limited human capacities fail to measure up when confronted with the divine; it's because they are legitimately unanswerable questions, arising from a set of mutually inconsistent assumptions.


It's worth the effort to dig into the origin of these two foundational notions of God, in order to get straight just how incompatible they really are. Until the seventh and sixth centuries BCE, Israelite religion was straightforwardly polytheistic, as much as the Greeks or Romans or Norse ever were. Originally, the Canaanite High God El (often translated simply as "God" in modern Bibles) was a completely distinct creature from Yahweh (often translated as "the Lord"). It's not until Exodus 3:6 that Yahweh asserts to Moses that he should be identified with El, the God of Abraham. (Why do you think that Yahweh's very First Commandment insists on not having any other gods before him?) Remnants of Judaism's polytheistic origins linger on throughout the Scriptures, which are an intricately-edited pastiche of various earlier sources. Psalm 82, for example, describes Yahweh making a power play at a meeting of the various gods (the "Council of El"):

1 God presides in the great assembly;
he gives judgment among the "gods":

2 "How long will you defend the unjust
and show partiality to the wicked?
Selah

3 Defend the cause of the weak and fatherless;
maintain the rights of the poor and oppressed.

4 Rescue the weak and needy;
deliver them from the hand of the wicked.

5 "They know nothing, they understand nothing.
They walk about in darkness;
all the foundations of the earth are shaken.

6 "I said, 'You are "gods";
you are all sons of the Most High.'

7 But you will die like mere men;
you will fall like every other ruler."

8 Rise up, O God, judge the earth,
for all the nations are your inheritance.

The quotes around "gods," of course, are nowhere in the original Hebrew; they were inserted by the translators (this is the New International Version), who were understandably squeamish about all this talk concerning "gods" in the plural.

The development of Hebrew monotheism from its polytheistic beginnings is a long and complicated story that contemporary historians only incompletely understand; see this review of a book by Mark Smith of NYU to get some flavor of current thinking. But the crucial point is that the emergence of One God was an essentially political transformation. The ancient Hebrews, surrounded by other unfriendly nations, promoted their tribal deity Yahweh to the position of the most powerful god, promising dire consequences for any backsliders who would choose to worship Ba'al or Asherah or other pretenders (as Ahab and Jezebel learned the hard way). From there, it was a short doctrinal leap (requiring only the imaginative re-interpretation of a few Scriptural passages) to declare that Yahweh was the only God out there — the well-known others weren't merely subordinate, they were imaginary. Even in its own right, this claim was somewhat problematic, as Yahweh had to serve double duty as the God of the Hebrews and also the only god in existence. But the conception of God as some sort of being who cared about the fate of the people of Israel was relatively sustainable; none of the Prophets went around defining Yahweh as "the condition of possibility," or even ascribing characteristics of omniscience and omnipotence to the deity.

Meanwhile, the ancient Greeks were developing monotheism for their own purposes — essentially philosophical rather than political. They had quite the robust pantheon of individual gods, but it was clear to most careful thinkers that these were closer to amusingly anthropomorphic fairy tales than to deep truths about the structure of the universe. Unsurprisingly, the monotheistic conception reached its pinnacle in the work of Aristotle. In the Metaphysics, he presented a version of what we now know as the cosmological argument for the existence of God, which (in Wikipedia's rendering) goes something like this:

1. Every effect has a cause.
2. Nothing can cause itself.
3. A causal chain cannot be of infinite length.
4. Therefore, there must be a first cause; or, there must be something which is not an effect.

Admittedly, this is merely an informal paraphrase of the argument. But the more careful versions don't change the essential fact that these days, the cosmological proof is completely anachronistic. Right after step one — "Every effect has a cause" — the only sensible response is "No it doesn't." Or at least, "What is that supposed to mean"?

To make sense of the cosmological argument, it's important to realize that Aristotle's metaphysics was predicated to an important extent on his physics. (Later variations by theologians from Aquinas to Leibniz don't alter the essence of the argument.) To the ancient Greeks, the behavior of matter was teleological; earth wanted to fall down, fire wanted to rise toward the heavens. And once it reached its desired destination, it just sat there. According to Aristotle, if we want to keep an object moving we have to keep pushing it. And he's right, of course, if we are thinking about the vast majority of macroscopic objects in our everyday world — which seems like a perfectly reasonable set of objects to think about. If you push a book along a table, and then stop pushing it, it will come to rest. If you want it to keep moving, you have to keep pushing it. That "effect" — the motion of the book — without a doubt requires a "cause" — you pushing it. It doesn't seem like much of a leap to extend such an analysis to the entire universe, implying the existence of an ineffable, perfectly static First Cause, or Unmoved Mover.

But the God of the Judeo-Christian Bible is very far from being "Unmoved." He's quite the mover, actually — smiting people here, raising the dead there. All very befitting, considering his origin as a local tribal deity. But utterly incompatible with the perfect and unchanging Aristotelian notion of God.

For the past two thousand years, theology has struggled to reconcile these two apparently-conflicting conceptions of the divine, without much success. We are left with fundamentally incoherent descriptions of what God is, which deny that he "exists" in the same sense that hummingbirds and saxophones do, but nevertheless attribute to him qualities of "love" and "creativity" that conventionally belong to conscious individual beings. One might argue that it's simply a hard problem, and our understanding is incomplete; after all, we haven't come up with a fully satisfactory way to reconcile general relativity and quantum mechanics, either. But there is a more likely possibility: there simply is no reconciliation to be had. The reason why it's difficult to imagine how God can be eternally perfect and also occasionally wistful is that God doesn't exist.

In fact, in this day and age the flaws in Aristotle's cosmological proof (just to pick one) are perfectly clear. Our understanding of the inner workings of the physical world has advanced quite a bit since the ancient Greeks. Long ago, Galileo figured out that the correct way to think about motion was to abstract from messy real-world situations to idealized circumstances in which dissipative effects such as friction and air resistance could be ignored. (They can always be restored later as perturbations.) Only then do we realize that what matter really wants to do is to maintain its motion at a constant speed, until it is explicitly acted upon by some external force. Except that, once we have made this breakthrough, we realize that the matter doesn't want to do anything — it just does it. Modern physics doesn't describe the world in terms of "causes" and "effects." It simply posits that matter (in the form of quantum fields, or strings, or what have you) acts in accordance with certain dynamical laws, known as "equations of motion." The notion of "causality" is downgraded from "when I see B happening, I know it must be because of A" to "given some well-defined and suitably complete set of information about the initial state of a system, I can use the equations of motion to determine its subsequent evolution." But a concept like "cause" doesn't appear anywhere in the equations of motion themselves, nor in the specification of the type of matter being described; it is only an occasionally-appropriate approximation, useful to us humans in narrating the behavior of some macroscopic configuration of equation-obeying matter.

In other words, the universe runs all by itself. The planets orbit the Sun, not because anything is "causing" them to do so, but because that's the kind of behavior that obeys Newton's (or Einstein's) equations governing motion in the presence of gravity. Deeply embedded as we are in this Galilean/Newtonian framework, statements like "every effect has a cause" become simply meaningless. (We won't even bother with "A causal chain cannot be of infinite length," which completely begs the question.) Conservation of momentum completely undermines any force the cosmological argument might ever have had. The universe, like everything in it, can very well just be, as long as its pieces continue to obey the relevant equations of motion.

Special pleading that the universe is essentially different from its constituents, and (by nature of its unique status as all that there is to the physical world) that it could not have either (1) just existed forever, nor (2) come spontaneously into existence all by itself, is groundless. The only sensible response such skepticism is "Why not?" It's certainly true that we don't yet know whether the universe is eternal or whether it had a beginning, and we certainly don't understand the details of its origin. But there is absolutely no obstacle to our eventually figuring those things out, given what we already understand about physics. General relativity asserts that spacetime itself is dynamical; it can change with time, and potentially even be created from nothing, in a way that is fundamentally different from the Newtonian conception (much less the Aristotelian). And quantum mechanics describes the universe in terms of a wavefunction that assigns amplitudes to any of an infinite number of possibilities, including — crucially — spontaneous transitions, unforced by any cause. We don't yet know how to describe the origin of the universe in purely physical terms, but someday we will — physicists are working on the problem every day.

The analogy to a penthouse apartment atop a high-rise building is quite apt. Much of the intricate architecture of modern theology is built on a foundation that conceives of God as both creator and sustainer of the world and as a friendly and loving being. But these days we know better. The Clockwork Universe of Galileo and Newton has once and for all removed the need for anything to "sustain" the universe, and the "creation" bit is something on which we are presently closing in.

In fact, although it is rarely discussed in history books, the influence of the conservation of momentum on theological practice is fairly evident. One response was a revival of Pyrrhonian skepticism, which claimed that it was simply wrong even to attempt to apply logic and rationality to questions of religion — claiming that you had "proven" the existence of God could get you accused of atheism. The other, more robust response, was a turn to natural theology and the argument from design. Even if the universe could keep going all by itself, surely its unguided meanderings would never produce something as wonderfully intricate as (for example) the human eye? The argument doesn't hold up very well even under purely philosophical scrutiny — David Hume's devastating take-down in Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion, interestingly, actually pre-dates William Paley's classic statement of the argument (1779 vs. 1802). Hume, for example, points out that, even if the argument from design works, it allows us to conclude next to nothing about the nature of the Designer. Maybe it was a team? Maybe our universe is a rough first draft for a much better later universe? Or even just a mistake? (Okay, that has something going for it.)

But then, of course, Darwin's theory of natural selection undercut the justification for the design argument just as thoroughly as classical mechanics undercut the justification for the cosmological argument. Indeed, the unpurposeful meanderings of matter in the universe can produce the wonderful intricacies of the human eye, and much else besides. Believers haven't given up entirely; you'll now more commonly find the argument from design placed in a cosmological context, where it is even less convincing. But for the most part, theologians have basically abandoned the project of "proving" God's existence, which is probably a good move.

But they haven't given up on believing in God's existence (suitably defined), which is what drives atheists like Dawkins (and me) a little crazy. Two thousand years ago, believing in God made perfect sense; there was so much that we didn't understand about the world, and an appeal to the divine seemed to help explain the otherwise inexplicable. Those original motivations have long since evaporated. In response, theologians have continued to alter what they mean by "God," and struggled to reconcile the notion's apparent internal contradictions — unwilling to take those contradictions as a signal of the fundamental incoherence of the idea.

To be fair, much of Dawkins's book does indeed take aim at a rather unsophisticated form of belief, one that holds a much more literal (and wholly implausible, not to mention deeply distasteful) notion of what God means. That's not a completely unwarranted focus, even if it does annoy the well-educated Terry Eagletons of the world; after all, that kind of naive theology is a guiding force among a very large and demonstrably influential fraction of the population. The reality of a religion is manifested in the actions of its adherents. But even an appeal to more nuanced thinking doesn't save God from the dustbin of intellectual history. The universe is going to keep existing without any help, peacefully solving its equations of motion along the way; if we want to find meaning through compassion and love, we have to create it ourselves.

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1. Comment #3582 by Diplo on October 30, 2006 at 12:23 pm

Brilliant deconstruction of Eagleton's review and also an enlightening and intelligent summation of the atheist position. I've always thought that Theology, whilst an interesting springboard for philosophical discussion, is ultimately a sham; a none-subject. Or, to use a horribly mixed metaphor topped off with a light helping of Biblical analogy, it's a house of cards built on shifting sand :)

2. Comment #3589 by Nebularry on October 30, 2006 at 12:39 pm

Dawkins addresses the "unsophisticated", "wholly implausible" and "deeply distasteful" version of God because that's the God in whom most people believe. Of course, they don't think their personal, meddling god is unsophisticated and distasteful otherwise they'd stop believing in Him. But nobody who I know thinks about, much less believes in, the sophisticated God of philosophers or erudite theologians. That God surely exists only in the minds of a minority of mental gymnasts.

3. Comment #3596 by J.C. Samuelson on October 30, 2006 at 1:33 pm

Truly outstanding. I've run into the argument that God is of a fundamentally unknowable quantity quite often, even when confronted by those who aren't acquainted with sophisticated theology. Unfortunately, though I could sense the contradiction between God as a concept vs. God having feelings, I could never express it well - even in my own mind. Mr. Carroll does it eloquently.

4. Comment #3601 by Jonathan Dore on October 30, 2006 at 2:05 pm

...and to amplify Mike Torr's point, religion is the only pretext on which Catholics and Protestants in Northern Ireland continue to be separately schooled -- which, after all, is the main mechanism by which the schism is kept alive from one generation to the next.

5. Comment #3634 by Jonathan on October 31, 2006 at 12:16 am

Don't forget these words:

"The study of theology, as it stands in Christian churches, is the study of nothing; it is founded on nothing; it rests on no principles; it proceeds by no authorities; it has no data; it can demonstrate nothing; and it admits of no conclusion."
— Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

I don't understand how one can have a "Sophisticated theologian". The idea that there is a basis for understanding and knowledge is contrary to atheistic thinking.

And what is "unsophisticated belief" and when does it become "sophisticated", when couched in pseudo intellectual theology?

6. Comment #3663 by Greywizard on October 31, 2006 at 4:13 am

Thanks to Jonathan for the quote from Paine's "The Age of Reason."

This response, by Sean Carroll, is really brilliant, a sustained philosophical-scientific assessment of a piece of academic frippery thrown off (by Eagleton) in a fit sophisticated self-satisfaction. The really important part of Carroll's response has to do with the analysis of Aristotle's ideas of motion and cause and effect and how these have been overturned by contemporary physics.

I suppose, having read this, that this is perhaps where Dawkins falls short. Dawkins understands Darwinism, but does not really understand modern physics and cosmology, which include important dimensions of his argument. Perhaps what we need now from Dawkins is a response to religion which not only delves a bit deeper into contemporary science, but also raises the temperature of the discussion of religious belief as understood by its more 'sophisticated' practitioners.

Carroll acknowledges that Dawkins takes "aim at a rather unsophisticated form of belief." The general point here is that it appears to leave more sophisticated forms of belief standing. Theologians will simply say: 'This doesn't apply to us. Our beliefs are not simplistic in this way.' If moderate theology continues make the world safe for fundamentalism, as Dawkins claims, then at some point he (or someone who supports this argument) will have to show how and why this is true, and how and why this is no firm basis for religious beliefs. It's fine to say that there is no foundation there. We need a clear explanation of why this is so, why even 'sophisticated' religion is foundationless.

7. Comment #3739 by maryhelena on October 31, 2006 at 11:08 am

For those interested there is an interesting review of a review of a review - Eagelton/Carroll ...on Sean Carroll's website/blog.

It's comment no.63 and it's by George Ellis - presumably the noted cosmologist.

8. Comment #3749 by Martin on October 31, 2006 at 12:16 pm

Well.. whoever posted that comment... he's obvisouly not read RD's book, since most of the critiques me makes are covered in the book, and his assertians about what richards states are not correct either.

9. Comment #3751 by Riley on October 31, 2006 at 12:20 pm

Sean Carroll is a Professor of Biology at the University of Wisconsin-Madison (where I live) in the United States, and is rapidly becoming a mainstream figure in print and television here. He's great.

The Scientific American Magazine did a podcast interview with him on October 25, 2006 and it's worth listening to: http://www.sciam.com/podcast/

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johnc commented that some of Professor Dawkin's sentences (claims that without religion there would be no 9/11,no Israeli/Palestinian wars, etc.) "really do leave Dawkins looking like a 'happy clappy' kind of atheist."

I think if there's a problem, it's that Professor Dawkins is not often-enough clear that it's *faith* that is the problem - not *just* religious faith, but *ANY* form of organized faith-based assertion for which people are willing to kill or be killed in defense of. Every time Professor Dawkins criticizes "religion" without emphasizing "faith", I'm afraid he dilutes from what I think should be his focus.

But then again, I once had a debate with someone who claimed that "Democracy" was a faith-based assertion - the person of course also claimed that Democracy was based on Christian principles (argh!). My response to this person was (for what it's worth) that: Since, there's no evidence to support the claim (made by King George, amongst others) that some of us are born with inherently more authority than others, we must assume that we're all born with equal authority. If evidence evidence suggested otherwise, then it should be otherwise. It is reliance on evidence that makes "Democracy" an assertion not based in faith.

I liked my thinking on this (at least it seemed solid enough to me) , so I thought I'd share.



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10. Comment #3852 by maryhelena on November 1, 2006 at 5:15 am

johnc

I don’t know enough about Nazism to argue pro and con whether it uses Darwin in any way to justify it’s ideology. That said, I do think that any racist based social program is able to look upon Darwin, look upon natural selection, as a ‘justification’ for it’s ideas. In other words, since natural selection is a fundamental component of human physical evolution - and also a vital component of intellectual evolution - it will also be observable, as a natural phenomenon, in our social environment. That the fittest survive is as true today as it was way back when. Dawkins' brilliance, to my mind, is summed up in his statement:

“We, alone on earth, can rebel against the tyranny of the selfish replicators’.

Rebel, not by attempting to harness or manipulate natural selection for questionable political ends, but by putting up political boundaries against it’s inhumanity. We make a space, in our interaction with one another, where we can say to natural selection - thanks but no thanks.

The words of Marx and Darwin, as with the words of ‘Jesus’, are, like all words and ideas, open to interpretation. It is not a negative reflection on the writer that his words can be misunderstood - that’s the nature of the written word. As Eagleton says, writing is ‘promiscuous’. If the author is not alive to correct misunderstanding of his words - then every Tom, Dick or Harry can, to a very large extent, have a field day with playing ball with them…..

Perhaps the point that George Ellis wants to make by reference to Darwin and Dawkins is this - ‘hey there, the religious slate is not clean - but neither is yours’

11. Comment #3853 by maryhelena on November 1, 2006 at 5:21 am

Sean

Very well written review of a review…Some clear headed thinking going on here! I very much liked the way you spelt out the Dawkins problem:

“But underneath Eagleton’s bluster lies a potentially-relevant critique. After all, some sophisticated theology is about whether or not God exists, and more importantly about the nature of God”.

Bottom line is that regardless of Eagleton’s ‘bluster’, his fundamental critique of TGD is not without some substance. There is some sophisticated theology out there and Dawkins has not attempted to come to grips with it. Is this sophisticated theology a ‘potentially’ problematic problem for Dawkins - or is it a very real one? And does Dawkins even care? All he seems to want to do is to knock the theistic god down from his pedestal - and hope, yes hope, that somehow, just somehow, this downfall will settle the ‘god’ question once and for all. It’s as though he considers the question of ‘god’ a simplistic question that, 1,2,3, throw some scientific facts around and lets move on.

Dawkins has a great mind for science but it seems that it’s a mind unable to deal with the intangible aspects of human existence. And what else is religion but an expression of our awareness of our finite relationship to existence, to life. Theologians cannot be dismissed as easily as Dawkins would like. We might disagree with any of their conjectures regarding ‘god’ but we cannot slight them for their intellectual competence. Take Hans Kung. His, 800+ page 1980 book, ‘Does God Exist?, is a great testimony to the depth of his thinking. One cannot, in any debate over the existence of ‘god’, ignore this type of serious contribution. (Kung puts some forty major intellectuals on the ‘table’).

What Dawkins seems to have misunderstood is that ‘god’ is not a question of fundamentalism, whether of the Christian or Muslim variety. The question of ‘god’ is a universal question. Labeling the theistic ‘god’ of fundamentalism a social/political problem is one thing - but to say that ‘god’ is a problem is another all together. And this is what, by implication, Dawkins is doing. And this is what is causing many people to ring the alarm bell.

Regarding George Ellis’ review of your review…The interesting point for me is this one:

“Dawkins, as the Professor of Public Understanding of Science, has put this false dilemma to the British public in hard-hitting TV shows: choose between science and religion, you can’t have them both”.

I agree with Ellis - and I am an atheist. I think it really is delusion to think that religion is going to disappear. Dawkins is taking imagination a bit far here - right into fantasy land. Much better to face the reality that it’s here to stay and get to grips with designing social/political structures that can withstand any attack or infiltration from it’s more blighted offshoots.

This criticism of Dawkins by Ellis is a valid one. One must surely have one’s intellectual antenna up when anyone presents us with an either or choice. Ellis, and I’m sure there are many scientists out there, would rather work towards an accommodation than take a position of such dogmatism.

From an online article by Ellis; (Science and religion: a personal view of their relation), he states that: “There is no serious case for `creation science’ and little for `intelligent design’, and I’m not interested in defending them”.
Is there not ground for a mutually beneficial debate with people such as Ellis - who cares if his ‘god’, if he has one, is the plain vanilla variety or any other exotic or sophisticated variety? The issue is not what ‘god’ we like but that we are freely able to pick one from the menu - if we are so inclined.

I don’t think anyone will argue with Dawkins that fundamentalism is bad news. (Ellis says: “Some religion is fundamentalist, but much is not. Fundamentalist religion is bad religion, and is also incompatible with good science). Hence, it looks like the controversy that TGD is generating resolves more around this issue - the either or issue between religion and science. The ‘god’ question is never going to be settled to everyone’s satisfaction. Logically, surely, that is no excuse to refuse to come to the table to seek an accommodation. No capitulation, no appeasement, no win/lose scenario - just accommodation. Is that really too much to ask of one of the greatest minds of our generation?

12. Comment #3887 by Riley on November 1, 2006 at 9:57 am

Biggest apologies for the mix-up Sean!

Sean Carrol of http://cosmicvariance.com/sean
Senior Research Associate in the Department of Physics at the California Institute of Technology

wrote this great article.

*NOT*

Sean B. Carrol of http://www.hhmi.org/research/investigators/carroll.html
Professor of Molecular Biology at the University of Wisconsin–Madison


---

13. Comment #3896 by Anonymous on November 1, 2006 at 10:28 am

Ruth

'Imagine no religion' - that's the clarion call to atheists that is the slogan, on the posters, on the front page of this website.

You say that it would be 'nice' if religion did disappear. Maybe it would also be nice if atheists would put a stop to their wishful thinking and engage the world that actually is.

14. Comment #3897 by maryhelena on November 1, 2006 at 10:31 am

Ruth

'Imagine no religion' - that's the clarion call to atheists that is the slogan, on the posters, on the front page of this website.

You say that it would be 'nice' if religion did disappear. Maybe it would also be nice if atheists would put a stop to their wishful thinking and engage the world that actually is.

15. Comment #4451 by Will on November 4, 2006 at 12:11 am

I think Carroll's argument, and most atheist arguments, suffers from a fundamental misunderstanding of the essence of faith, rather than a conscious and intelligent deconstruction and dismissal of faith.

For example, he confuses the various parts of the Trinity, and blurs the lines between the attributes of God and the actions of God.

While reading I had the urge to say, think of it this way: God is the unknowable essence behind nature and natural laws. Science is devoted to understanding God, who is unknowable, and so science will go on forever and is arguably one of mankind's greatest achievements. God started the big bang and did it in such a way that everything that's happened since went according to his laws. God is Newton's laws and Darwin's evolution. Anything that tries to describe the world is trying to describe God. God is very hands-off, but that's not to say he doesn't exist.

Judeo-Christian and other religions say God made Noah's flood or banished Adam and Eve from Eden, you might better understand it in more intellectual terms-- floods happen because of nature. Adam and Eve, if they exist outside of the metaphorical, were banished due to something natural, i.e. the garden dying due to drought. You as an atheist might say God had no part in it, but those primitive believers attributed it to an unknowable higher force. The question is whether you stay with "Noah's flood was just weather" or "the flood was God's cleansing of the Earth." The difference is a matter of philosophical belief.

When religious people talk about God's will, or God's love, or God's creativity, they're referring to their beliefs about this essentially unknowable and intangible entity that created and inhabits everything without any visible sign to us, except that it created us and set us up to survive. We believe that the universe wants the best for us, and doesn't like death and needless suffering. We believe that there is a certain elegance to the world around us, and attribute that, like the rainbow, to a certain creativity inherent in the universe.

I agree many religious people base their faith on hollow shells of belief, and many religious people use faith and religion in very bad ways. But I as a religious person think that God, the unknowable natural essence of the universe, is perfect. We as a race are far from perfect. Don't discount a concept because of its flawed understanding, instead try to understand it better.

The universe exists, laws of nature exist, and us humans and animals and our earth and the planets all exist and are connected in an intangible way. I assert that belief in science and belief in God shouldn't be mutually exclusive. Science is the question, God is the answer, and we're in the middle always searching. Whether you understand the universe from the beginning forward or from the end backwards, it's still the universe and it still exists.

16. Comment #4456 by maryhelena on November 4, 2006 at 1:16 am

johnc

I'm online and just seen your post.

Of course not; I'm not referring to you at all! It was simply a general statement. There is always blood spilt on both sides - nobody having all the pieces of the puzzle and everyone susceptible to dogmatism. Or as Hans Kung put it, in relation to the Church and heretics: “…every Christian is potentially not only a heretic, but also an inquisitor” .Good and Evil in all of us….The terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. Actually, I did read, somewhere online, that Ellis has proposed something like The Truth and Reconciliation Commission (which we had in SA) as a mechanism to bring together religion and science.….

Great quote from Bronowski. And yes I’m most certainly with you here - “One of my core criticisms of Dawkins has always been his positivism and pinched perspective on the human journey”.

As to different worldviews - I posted to another tread about Michael Shermer’ recent article in the October 25 New York Sun - there is a link on the skeptic webpage. Dawkins won’t get to have things all his own way….

17. Comment #4458 by maryhelena on November 4, 2006 at 2:14 am

I found an interesting point on George Ellis online. Both his parents were/are atheists!! How about that for something that Dawkins should think about….It seems that as a young boy he got involved with the Anglican church. So I would imagine that any comment from someone like Dawkins, that people might just ascribe to religion in order to qualify for the Templeton Prize would not fit the case of Ellis. (Ellis having won the prize in 2004).

18. Comment #4465 by maryhelena on November 4, 2006 at 3:35 am

Brian wrote:

“You people (you know who you are!!!!) will persist in missing the point. Dawkins attacks the fundamentalist God, because this monster is the one that most people beleive in. I trust we all agree that this is bollocks?”

Agreed, the theistic god is ‘bollocks’…..And I, for one, will not waste my time engaging in debate with theists.

“Dawkins takes swipes at the "sophisticated" beleivers, because they lend credence and sustenance to the insane ideas of the basic beleivers”.

And in doing so, he alienates religionists who do not support the fundamentalist agenda. If atheism is ever going to achieve any sort of social impact it cannot do it on it’s own. Dawkins has said, in one of his interviews that “Organizing atheists is like herding cats”. Can’t be done.

In a post to another thread I came up with an analogy of my own for religionists:

(As an aside, since religionists can be herded, how about ‘like elephants’ for the religionists? Thick skinned they are - even have their own ‘language’, low frequency infrasound. Generally peaceful but prone to attacks of madness now and again - the male musth/madness period of sexual or dominance activity. The occasional rogue male. And of course, not to be forgotten, elephants never forget - an old adage which science has now backed up. Quite an interesting perspective from which to view atheists and religionists! Clearly one in which it becomes obvious that, because of the size difference between cats and elephants, - the idea of a battle, let alone a winnable battle, is nonsense. If atheist ‘cats’ want to stop any rogue religious ‘elephants’ from their destructive path - then they simply have to enlist the help of some game rangers to work on their behalf - caterwauling from the rooftops just won’t do the job).

You ask:

“Why keep flogging this patently dead horse? It really is that simple guys”.

It’s not simple because the horse - or rather the elephant - is not dead. Fundamentalism, as a rogue elephant, needs to be stopped - but the elephant herd is far from extinction.

19. Comment #4519 by maryhelena on November 4, 2006 at 9:30 am

johnc

"More broadly, if our only strategy for defanging fundamentalism in the world is mass conversion to atheism we have already been defeated by our own naivety."

Well said, very well said!

20. Comment #4535 by William on November 4, 2006 at 11:42 am

Brian said:

>>I'm not disputing that religion has had an influence on culture, or that this influence has occasionaly been postive. Merely that it has outlived it's usefulness, and that as regards broadening real understanding of our world, it has largely been a relentless obstruction.<<

I love your posts Brian. So clear in thought, that it's hard not to agree.

I would add to your list of useless past-times such things as fairies, goblins, ghosts, ghouls, re-incarnation, UFO's, The Loch Ness Monster, Past-Life Regression, ESP, Out-of-body experiences, tea-leaf reading, male-bonding workshops, Clairvoyance, Mediums and any of the other versions of superstition.

Believers should admit that they believe because they WANT too. Because they don't see how there could be any natural reasons for existence. I can respect this view, because that first second after the big bang is open to much speculation. We don't have enough understanding or evidence yet. This doesn't make me agnostic though. I definitely don't believe. I DONT WANT TO BELIEVE. I can't accept a God that can claim to be loving, yet invents the concept of death, disease or suffering.

I also can't accept the ideas of the Theists who take the Bible as red. Jesus may well have lived - I now there are Atheists that wouldn't agree and would state that Jesus is a myth or a composite. I don't subscribe to that. I believe Jesus existed. That he was a MAN. Not a God. The distinction is important. The stories of Jesus lose credit, once people talk about miracles and resurrection etc., These premises take the idea too far for me. Again, I can't obviously prove any of this; these are just my own ideas. So Theists can attack me all they wish. I'll not be upset if they take me to task. Because quite simply, none of the believers were there 2,000 years ago - so they don't really know, either. The Bibles claims are absurd and from the little I've read of it, the Qur'an is not much of an improvement.

I would add to your idea of religion existing in a 1,000 years. I realise this is just a figure off the top of your head. Personally, I would predict that, so long as we survive the 21st Century (and no religious freaks create a pandemic of death, from a Human engineered virus that makes AIDS look like a cold!), then science should progress to a time where sheer immortality could be a real progress.

By immortality, I mean should concepts as - cloned bodies in storage, should anything happen to ours. Technology and man, integrated as one - not unlike the Borg on Star Trek! This may sound ridiculous, but is it? I'd say that if we can cheat 'Death' that Grim Reaper that haunts us all, then we will have ended The God Delusion.

God would be extinct. We'd have no need for God, nor religious teachings. Is that a worthy goal?

Kind Regards, William.

21. Comment #4579 by maryhelena on November 4, 2006 at 3:47 pm

Brian wrote in response to johnc:

"One last thing, neither you nor Dawkins really gets it. Neither of you have experienced fundamentalism from the inside, as I have, thus I see it".

I sense a lot of anger here. It reminds me of something Dawkins remarked on in one of his interviews - or maybe it was a question and answer session after one of his talks - a woman spoke about her anger after realizing that what she had been taught as a child was wrong. Dawkins made some comment to the effect that her anger needed to be taken notice off - something to that effect. He seemed to be surprised at the woman’s anger - a clear indication that he does not fully realize just what impact his book could cause - and what it can mean, emotionally, to come out of a theological/fundamentalist mindset.

It’s beginning to worry me, after reading numerous posts to this site, that the anger of many new atheists could be counter-productive to what Dawkins is trying to achieve. Both Dawkins, and by all accounts Sam Harris, are highly intellectual in their approach to what they are doing. However, for many a new atheist, the emotional aspect of their ‘conversion', their anger, their disgust, their frustration, their bitterness, towards what they formally believed - and towards their former religionists - can easily become the Achilles heel of Dawkins’ campaign for atheism.

Reading TGD might well be some sort of shock treatment for lots of people. The danger is that a shock to ones system can leave one disorientated for a while. A situation where clear logical thinking can take second place to the emotional impact that has hit one - clearly evidenced on this site with it’s high level of emotionally charged rhetoric against religionists.

Being an atheist has nothing to do with hitting out at religionists. If being an atheist is anything at all it is an intellectual orientation - it has nothing to do with emotionally charged verbal attacks upon religionists. One has not been short-changed because one was taught some theology that one later finds to be lacking in some way or another. That’s the nature of theological and philosophical ideas, they are purely contemplative pursuits - a fact that should be one of the first things that an atheist should learn - and learn well. Doing so will allow emotions to be kept under wraps and, therefore, enable atheists to move forward with their dignity intact.

Blaming parents, school teachers, theologians, for wrongful indoctrination is childish. Where in heavens name would the buck stop? It stops with each one of us. Atheists must not succumb to the blame game, it’s a quagmire of anger and hatred.

And, Brian, I do know what I’m talking about here. Fundamentalism from the inside - been there, done that - and moved on - moved on without needing to look back in anger….

22. Comment #4629 by Will on November 5, 2006 at 12:54 am

Joad, I&#39;m afraid you&#39;re hyperfocusing on a misunderstood segment from a single sentence in a larger point I was trying to make. My point ironically was that most atheist arguments fundamentally misunderstand the essence of faith.

I said: "...I as a religious person think that God, the unknowable natural essence of the universe, is perfect. We as a race are far from perfect."

You said, "Please give me a reference to that race of humans who are more PEFECTLY human than we are."

Your incomplete understanding of faith is obvious. I never said that there was a race of humans more perfect than we are. And if there is, William, it&#39;s irrelevant. We all exist as parts of the universe. Before the Big Bang, humans did not exist. If the universe didn&#39;t exist, we as a part of it wouldn&#39;t exist either. Nothing in the universe is absolutely perfect or omnipotent, since nothing in the universe created the universe. Until us humans or some aliens stop being products of this universe (logically impossible) we are still not as perfect as that which created us.

You say "If man was more like God, he would not be more perfect. He would only be LESS human." I assert that God is unknowably perfect, and therefore the more like God we are, the more perfect we are. I&#39;m not concerned with being -more- human, I&#39;m already as human as I can get. You seem to advocate wallowing in our own humanity, like pigs in a sty. That argument mainly leads to following your own instincts and human nature, to which we attribute violence, sex, pleasure-seeking, selfishness, and generally animal qualities.

I advocate trying to be more like God-- in the sense that I try to rise above my human nature, be peaceful, modest, enlightenment-seeking, empathetic and acquire other godlike qualities.

I don&#39;t detest my humanness, I acknowledge it and try to be more than just human. I don&#39;t believe in original sin, and I&#39;m definitely glad to be human rather than just an animal.

I don&#39;t find imperfection in the laws of nature. You&#39;re extrapolating your originally valid point into nonsense and irrelevance.

Pointing out the imperfections of others isn&#39;t nice and isn&#39;t helpful. Acknowledging your own imperfections and working to overcome them is a healthy personal choice that shouldn&#39;t be imposed on others, especially not in the way you describe.

I don&#39;t base perfection on myself, I base it on God.

It sounds like you&#39;ve had a bad experience with religion, Joad, and I&#39;m sorry. I assure you that&#39;s not what God is really about. It&#39;s a sad religion that dwells on negativity.

We aren&#39;t perfect. Our human nature is evil, which we should overcome (either through intelligence, religion, or both) and if we don&#39;t we are more like animals than humans. I&#39;m offended by the seemingly common atheist assertion that humans are just animals. Yes biologically we are, but if you go around thinking that, you&#39;re bound to act more like a pig than a man.

I find your argument in defense of mediocrity. A teenager&#39;s argument to his parent is similar-- I&#39;m my own person, so stop holding me to a higher standard. It sounds great to the kid at the time, but the parent knows that the teenager is defining his individuality and that the phase will pass. It would be nice if we could live in a fantasy world where no one can tell us what we should do, no one&#39;s better than we are, but that attitude gets humanity nowhere.

23. Comment #4630 by Will on November 5, 2006 at 12:55 am

Joad, I&#39;m afraid you&#39;re hyperfocusing on a misunderstood segment from a single sentence in a larger point I was trying to make. My point ironically was that most atheist arguments fundamentally misunderstand the essence of faith.

I said: "...I as a religious person think that God, the unknowable natural essence of the universe, is perfect. We as a race are far from perfect."

You said, "Please give me a reference to that race of humans who are more PEFECTLY human than we are."

Your incomplete understanding of faith is obvious. I never said that there was a race of humans more perfect than we are. And if there is, William, it&#39;s irrelevant. We all exist as parts of the universe. Before the Big Bang, humans did not exist. If the universe didn&#39;t exist, we as a part of it wouldn&#39;t exist either. Nothing in the universe is absolutely perfect or omnipotent, since nothing in the universe created the universe. Until us humans or some aliens stop being products of this universe (logically impossible) we are still not as perfect as that which created us.

You say "If man was more like God, he would not be more perfect. He would only be LESS human." I assert that God is unknowably perfect, and therefore the more like God we are, the more perfect we are. I&#39;m not concerned with being -more- human, I&#39;m already as human as I can get. You seem to advocate wallowing in our own humanity, like pigs in a sty. That argument mainly leads to following your own instincts and human nature, to which we attribute violence, sex, pleasure-seeking, selfishness, and generally animal qualities.

I advocate trying to be more like God-- in the sense that I try to rise above my human nature, be peaceful, modest, enlightenment-seeking, empathetic and acquire other godlike qualities.

I don&#39;t detest my humanness, I acknowledge it and try to be more than just human. I don&#39;t believe in original sin, and I&#39;m definitely glad to be human rather than just an animal.

I don&#39;t find imperfection in the laws of nature. You&#39;re extrapolating your originally valid point into nonsense and irrelevance.

Pointing out the imperfections of others isn&#39;t nice and isn&#39;t helpful. Acknowledging your own imperfections and working to overcome them is a healthy personal choice that shouldn&#39;t be imposed on others, especially not in the way you describe.

I don&#39;t base perfection on myself, I base it on God.

It sounds like you&#39;ve had a bad experience with religion, Joad, and I&#39;m sorry. I assure you that&#39;s not what God is really about. It&#39;s a sad religion that dwells on negativity.

We aren&#39;t perfect. Our human nature is evil, which we should overcome (either through intelligence, religion, or both) and if we don&#39;t we are more like animals than humans. I&#39;m offended by the seemingly common atheist assertion that humans are just animals. Yes biologically we are, but if you go around thinking that you&#39;re bound to act more like a pig than a man.

I find your argument in defense of mediocrity. A teenager&#39;s argument to his parent is similar-- I&#39;m my own person, so stop holding me to a higher standard. It sounds great to the kid at the time, but the parent knows that the teenager is defining his individuality and that the phase will pass. It would be nice if we could live in a fantasy world where noone can tell us what we should do, but that attitude gets humanity nowhere.

24. Comment #4654 by maryhelena on November 5, 2006 at 6:47 am

Brian wrote:

&#8220;Maryhelena, you are quite right that I am angry, and it is Dawkins bemused response to that in others, that flags up his detachment for me. You could see the gears grinding during that post, and you can see him orienting his comments in later interviews. He is learning, and getting better at exposing the lie every day.&#8221;

Perhaps Dawkins needs more than just a few lessons in modern theology - he needs also a crash course in psychology! That exchange, with the angry women, reveals just how far away he is from the reality of what he is attempting to deal with. He seems to have dismissed the emotional connection to religion far to lightly - and hence the emotional upheaval that accompanies withdrawing from it.


&#8220;I am disoriented, it's like a divorce, or the death of a close relative or friend. How could it not be?&#8221;

Your right, that is part of the reality. It can be an extremely emotional time. Personally, I did not invest as much emotional energy as many do. Somehow or another I was always able to keep my focus on ideas. So, when crunch time came, I was able to walk away without any problematic emotional baggage. However, I have seen the emotional damage that others have to deal with. And then, of course, it is not only us as individuals, it is also how our relationships are changed. Our world and their world are different - but not so different that we can not find some common ground in our basic humanity. Whether it is race, culture or religion, necessity requires that we get along with one another. We should not be seeking to turn people into sheep and goats because of the content of their minds, their color or their customs.

Brian, yes indeed, fundamentalism is a big problem - but it is not a religious problem - it is a political problem.

25. Comment #4655 by maryhelena on November 5, 2006 at 6:59 am

Paul wrote:

&#8220;I'm puzzled by maryhelena's comment. One certainly has been short-changed, quite literally, if one has given one's time and money to a religion. Certainly people need to exercise personal responsibility about what they believe, but even outside of the religious questions, we recognize that people may fall victim to con-men, and that such people have every right to be angry when they realize they've been had. Some people are vulnerable. Children in particular have are very prone to believing what their parents tell them.&#8221;

But we are not talking about people being conned. We are talking about people who have either grown up in a religion, or people who have chosen one to their liking. And, as you say, we all need to exercise personal responsibility. It is very often a two-way street. What is on offer may be just what we need or seek at a particular time in our lives.

What we do not want to do is to allow our anger to trap us. We need to, as it were, to redirect the energy. When anger is directed against a fellow human the destructive energy this emotion contains cannot accomplish anything. The destructive energy is not neutralized by hitting an impenetrable brick wall. Instead it becomes distorted and, like a rubber ball, comes straight back to strike its sender right off his or her feet.

As to blaming people for their wrong acts. Indeed I do. In my post I was talking about blame in the context of ideas. Ideas just are. One can not blame ideas for anything. It is how people use their ideas that can become a problem.

&#8220;Any decision to leave your religion is not merely an abstract philosophical change, it is a question of identity and emotion as well. It's naive to expect people who come out of a religion not to react with some emotion.&#8221;

Of course there will be plenty of emotion - the issue is not the emotions but the manner in which they are dealt with.

Regarding my point re Achilles heel. Anger can certainly push us in the wrong direction - fighting emotion with more emotion leads nowhere. It just becomes a cul-de-sac of our own making.

&#8220;, but I can't help feeling we need some anger if we want to change the world, because that's not entirely down to an academic debate. It is possible to go too far, but it seems to me the right amount of anger for ex-Christians (say) is not "none at all".

Be angry by all means - but do not act in an angry manner. Much better to let our anger be a motivating force for change - not use it as an instrument, or a weapon, of change.
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