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Sunday, May 11, 2008 | Reason : Religion as Child Abuse | print version Print | Comments |

Document 'My daughter deserved to die for falling in love'

by Guardian

Reposted from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/11/iraq.humanrights

Two weeks ago, The Observer revealed how 17-year-old student Rand Abdel-Qader was beaten to death by her father after becoming infatuated with a British soldier in Basra. In this remarkable interview, Abdel-Qader Ali explains why he is unrepentant - and how police backed his actions. Afif Sarhan in Basra and Caroline Davies report

Afif Sarhan in Basra and Caroline Davies
The Observer, Sunday May 11 2008

For Abdel-Qader Ali there is only one regret: that he did not kill his daughter at birth. 'If I had realised then what she would become, I would have killed her the instant her mother delivered her,' he said with no trace of remorse.

Two weeks after The Observer revealed the shocking story of Rand Abdel-Qader, 17, murdered because of her infatuation with a British solider in Basra, southern Iraq, her father is defiant. Sitting in the front garden of his well-kept home in the city's Al-Fursi district, he remains a free man, despite having stamped on, suffocated and then stabbed his student daughter to death.

Abdel-Qader, 46, a government employee, was initially arrested but released after two hours. Astonishingly, he said, police congratulated him on what he had done. 'They are men and know what honour is,' he said.

Rand, who was studying English at Basra University, was deemed to have brought shame on her family after becoming infatuated with a British soldier, 22, known only as Paul.

She died a virgin, according to her closest friend Zeinab. Indeed, her 'relationship' with Paul, which began when she worked as a volunteer helping displaced families and he was distributing water, appears to have consisted of snatched conversations over less than four months. But the young, impressionable Rand fell in love with him, confiding her feelings and daydreams to Zeinab, 19.

It was her first youthful infatuation and it would be her last. She died on 16 March after her father discovered she had been seen in public talking to Paul, considered to be the enemy, the invader and a Christian. Though her horrified mother, Leila Hussein, called Rand's two brothers, Hassan, 23, and Haydar, 21, to restrain Abdel-Qader as he choked her with his foot on her throat, they joined in. Her shrouded corpse was then tossed into a makeshift grave without ceremony as her uncles spat on it in disgust.

'Death was the least she deserved,' said Abdel-Qader. 'I don't regret it. I had the support of all my friends who are fathers, like me, and know what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours his religion,' he said.

Sitting on a chair by his front door and surrounded by the gerberas and white daisies he had planted in the family garden, Abel-Qader attempted to justify his actions.

'I don't have a daughter now, and I prefer to say that I never had one. That girl humiliated me in front of my family and friends. Speaking with a foreign solider, she lost what is the most precious thing for any woman. 'People from western countries might be shocked, but our girls are not like their daughters that can sleep with any man they want and sometimes even get pregnant without marrying. Our girls should respect their religion, their family and their bodies.

'I have only two boys from now on. That girl was a mistake in my life. I know God is blessing me for what I did,' he said, his voice swelling with pride. 'My sons are by my side, and they were men enough to help me finish the life of someone who just brought shame to ours.'

Abdel-Qader, a Shia, says he was released from the police station 'because everyone knows that honour killings sometimes are impossible not to commit'. Chillingly, he said: 'The officers were by my side during all the time I was there, congratulating me on what I had done.' It's a statement that, if true, provides an insight into how vast the gulf remains between cultures in Iraq and between the Basra police the British army that trains them.

Sources have indicated that Abdel-Qader, who works in the health department, has been asked to leave because of the bad publicity, yet he will continue to draw a salary.

And it has been alleged by one senior unnamed official in the Basra governorate that he has received financial support by a local politician to enable him to 'disappear' to Jordan for a few weeks, 'until the story has been forgotten' - the usual practice in the 30-plus cases of 'honour' killings that have been registered since January alone.

Such treatment seems common in Basra, where militias have partial control, especially in the districts on the outskirts where Abdel-Qader lives.

While government security forces and British troops have control over the centre, around the fringes militants can still be seen everywhere on the streets or at the checkpoints they have erected. And they have imposed strict laws of behaviour for all the local people, including what clothing should be worn and what religious practices should be observed. There are reports of men having their hands cut off for looting and women being killed for prostitution.

Homosexuality is punishable by death, a sentence Abdel-Qader approves of with a passion. 'I have alerted my two sons. They will have the same end [as Rand] if they become contaminated with any gay relationship. These crimes deserve death - death in the name of God,' he said.

He said his daughter's 'bad genes were passed on from her mother'. Rand's mother, 41, remains in hiding after divorcing her husband in the immediate aftermath of the killing, living in fear of retribution from his family. She also still bears the scars of the severe beating he inflicted on her, breaking her arm in the process, when she told him she was going. 'They cannot accept me leaving him. When I first left I went to a cousin's home, but every day they were delivering notes to my door saying I was a prostitute and deserved the same death as Rand,' she said.

'She was killed by animals. Every night when go to bed I remember the face of Rand calling for help while her father and brothers ended her life,' she said, tears streaming down her face.

She was nervous, clearly terrified of being found, and her eyes constantly turned towards the window as she spoke. 'Rand told me about the soldier, but she swore it was just a friendship.

'She said she spoke with him because she was the only English speaker. I raised her in a religious manner and she never went out alone until she joined the university and then later when she was doing aid work.

'Even now, I cannot believe my ex-husband was able to kill our daughter. He wasn't a bad person. During our 24 years of marriage, he was never aggressive. But on that day, he was a different person.'

The mother is now trying to raise enough money to escape abroad. 'I miss my two boys,' she said. 'But they have sent a message saying that I am wrong for defending Rand and that I should go back home and live like a blessed Muslim woman,' said Leila, who is now volunteering with a local organisation campaigning for better protection for women in Basra.

One of those running the organisation, who did not want to be identified, said that Rand's case was similar to so many reported in Basra, with the only difference being she was in love with a foreigner, rather than an Iraqi.

'There isn't too much to say. Rand is dead. It is a tragedy and will be a tragedy for many other families in Iraq in the days to come.

'According to information we have been given, some from Rand's colleague, we have doubts that her love was reciprocated. We have the impression that Rand was in love, but the English soldier wasn't. But, for a girl to be paid nice compliments about her beauty and her intelligence, it was enough for her to think she was in love.

'She isn't here any more for her mother to ask any of the questions she would like to. Rand's case had repercussions because she fell in love with a foreigner. But what about the other girls murdered through "honour" killings because they fell in love with some of a different sect, or lost their virginity, or were forced to become prostitutes?'

Rand's mother used to call her 'Rose'. 'That was my nickname for her because when she was born she was so beautiful,' she said.

'Now, my lovely Rose is in her grave. But, God will make her father pay, either in this world ... or in the world after.'

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1. Comment #178345 by ~manic-depressive on May 11, 2008 at 9:31 am

 avatar[That's it; I've decided to lay claim to first post whenever I can because the chances are that this is the only happiness I'll get from reading about all this religio-moral idiocy.]

..."he said, police congratulated him on what he had done. 'They are men and know what honour is,' he said."

And here's me, thinking honour had something to do with ethics.

'Even now, I cannot believe my ex-husband was able to kill our daughter. He wasn't a bad person. During our 24 years of marriage, he was never aggressive. But on that day, he was a different person.'

Crazy beliefs are crazy behaviours just waiting to happen. Just for pointing out this obvious point Sam Harris has been called simplistic in his analysis of Islamism.

Other Comments by ~manic-depressive

2. Comment #178348 by ghuckin on May 11, 2008 at 9:39 am

 avatarWhen I struggled to the bottom of this article, there was a note to say that there are no comments on this article. I understand that. I too am at a loss for words to describe my distress that, anywhere in this world, there are people, men mostly, who still hold these views.

Other Comments by ghuckin

3. Comment #178350 by Paula Kirby on May 11, 2008 at 9:39 am

 avatarJust obscene.

I cannot begin to imagine how it must feel to think this kind of thing is remotely acceptable - let alone something to be proud of.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

4. Comment #178351 by AshtonBlack on May 11, 2008 at 9:40 am

 avatarPeople still ask me what I have against religion. I will link them to this.

Other Comments by AshtonBlack

5. Comment #178352 by History_Junky on May 11, 2008 at 9:40 am

 avatarThis reminds of the story of the muslim man who killed his wife and bargained for his freedom by trading the police a few goats.

I understand that these kinds of killings are a a result of culture, but its an aspect of culture that has been influenced by misogynistic religion.

Something interesting ive noticed is that when these killings happen in the hindu or sikh communities, which occurs much less frequently, they are hushed up and prevented from the information spreadings.

Muslims on the other hand seem to celebrate these barbarous events. None the less its quite barbaric whatever way it is approached but it shows how you have people on one hand who understand what they are doing is wrong and people on the other hand who see this as their duty.

Quite detestable.

Other Comments by History_Junky

6. Comment #178356 by steveroot on May 11, 2008 at 9:43 am

 avatarThis is completely disgusting, regardless of whether it is a "religious" or "cultural" issue. I feel tremendous sadness for the mother; the father and his sons are complete fucktards.
Ste5e
{EDIT: I should add that I have a 20-year-old daughter. It is utterly inconceivable that I could kill her for *any* reason, let alone for being seen in public talking to a member of the opposite sex. I despair for the cultures where this sort of thing can happen with apparent official approval.}

Other Comments by steveroot

7. Comment #178359 by PaulJ on May 11, 2008 at 9:47 am

 avatarDespicable.

But how can this possibly have happened? Islam is a religion of peace.

(/sarcasm)

Reports like this make me want to say, "OK then, if that's how it is, we're pulling out right now. You can stew in your own juice."

It's a gut reaction, but I can't see how the west can do anything at all to stop this kind of thing happening.

Other Comments by PaulJ

8. Comment #178360 by Maybeline on May 11, 2008 at 9:48 am

I don't think some people see it as a duty but as a pleasure. The chap in the story is proud of being a woman-killer and proud of all the men who support woman-killing. If the chap didn't want to kill her he wouldn't have.

She died because he wanted her to. End of story.

Other Comments by Maybeline

9. Comment #178361 by ~manic-depressive on May 11, 2008 at 9:48 am

 avatar
I cannot begin to imagine how it must feel to think this kind of thing is remotely acceptable - let alone something to be proud of.


Unfortunately, I am cursed with empathy: I am able to imagine how it might feel to be proud of doing what one has been brainwashed into believing is the "honourable" thing. I wish I didn't have this imaginative capacity.

Other Comments by ~manic-depressive

10. Comment #178362 by Mango on May 11, 2008 at 9:49 am

 avatarI'd wager that honor killings have become more common since the US-led invasion of Iraq as Iraqis use them as outlets for personal frustrations and also to reassert their Muslim identity.

Other Comments by Mango

11. Comment #178363 by History_Junky on May 11, 2008 at 9:51 am

 avatar@PaulJ

If we want to stop this kind of behavior an occupation of the country will not help. If the west used the money it spends on war and instead decided to use that money to build schools with western education for free, I guarantee you will see a difference. Still wont stop some fucktards from being fucktards though, but its more viable then invading a country.

Other Comments by History_Junky

12. Comment #178364 by Vaal on May 11, 2008 at 9:53 am

 avatarI hope the SAS pay this disgusting excuse of a human a little visit.

Other Comments by Vaal

13. Comment #178365 by Maybeline on May 11, 2008 at 9:55 am

This chap hasn't been brainwashed. He knows there are alternatives to his actions as he compares his own actions to those that would happen in the West.

He quite clearly made a choice between allowing his daughter freedom and murdering her.

If he can choose he is not brainwashed.

Other Comments by Maybeline

14. Comment #178368 by SteveO on May 11, 2008 at 9:59 am

 avatarJust horrible. Can anyone provide a more convincing argument for the malice of faith than the father himself?

Of course this won't even reach the level of public outrage and media support that the cartoons inspired for fear of offending their right to murder eachother.

Other Comments by SteveO

15. Comment #178373 by Vinelectric on May 11, 2008 at 10:06 am

 avatar
Our girls should respect their religion, their family and their bodies.


Mind you, this is the sect that allows Mutaa marriage (temporary marriage for the puprpose of fulfilling sexual urges).

Other Comments by Vinelectric

16. Comment #178375 by jesadurni on May 11, 2008 at 10:07 am

It's amazing... I used to have a muslim neighbor in France who would act as a policeman to an Algerian girl in our same student residence... Whenever he was around she panicked, he was not even her relative, but according to her he had the power to tell on her to muslim superiors in the city... even a sip of wine would be punishable.

That same guy actually told us that before leaving France he would burn a car and beat up a Frenchman just for the sake of it... when we asked him why had he come to Europe in the first place if he hated everything about it, his reply was that they had to impose over their enemies.

I can't understand how people want to be tolerant to such a religion... it's like asking for tolerance towards pedophiles.

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17. Comment #178377 by Dax on May 11, 2008 at 10:13 am

 avatarThis is it... I lost all hope in the Middle East. Let's just do the merciful thing of turning the entire area into a glass salad bowl.

Other Comments by Dax

18. Comment #178378 by mordacious1 on May 11, 2008 at 10:13 am

 avatarThe worst thing is, that even had this girl lived, her dad would have sold her off to someone for a couple of goats and she would have been raped by her new "husband". I repeat my earlier comment on this story: "BASTARDS"

Other Comments by mordacious1

19. Comment #178379 by Colwyn Abernathy on May 11, 2008 at 10:13 am

 avatar
'I don't have a daughter now, and I prefer to say that I never had one. That girl humiliated me in front of my family and friends.


YEAH! IT'S ALL about YOU, you self-righteous, backwards fucktard. She OBVIOUSLY hated you and only fell in love JUST TO SHAME YOU. I'm...I'm...so furious I...I don't want to say anything else that'll get me banned, I can't let my anger erode my rationality.

Oh...and a Happy Mother's Day from a Yank's son to all you Mamas out there. :)

EDIT:
Our girls should respect their religion, their family and their bodies.


And if they don't, you'll kill them...fucking barbarians.

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20. Comment #178381 by Dinah on May 11, 2008 at 10:20 am

This article brought me close to despair. Any religion or culture that can entirely snuff out the natural affection a father should instinctively feel for his child must be inherently evil. To feel no shame, no sense of grief or loss, to be able to go out and boast about what he has done...is beyond horror.

Other Comments by Dinah

21. Comment #178384 by Quine on May 11, 2008 at 10:32 am

 avatarThose who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

Deep sadness, but not so much surprise.

Other Comments by Quine

22. Comment #178386 by phatbat on May 11, 2008 at 10:37 am

 avatarAbsolutely disgusting.

Every culture will have people who are sick enough to kill their own daughter, but not many can lay claim to the friends, relatives, police, politicians, in-laws, neighbours and multitude or religious brothers and sisters of said sicko all agreeing that not only was it not a bad thing to do but that it was the right thing to do.

That, i'm not ashamed to say, is what puts people on this side of the issue on a much higher moral plain than the thousands (if not millions) on the other side.

Lets call a spade a spade people.

Lets see how many theists will come on here and try and point out how we've got that wrong.

I bet (or shall i say, i hope) not many.

Other Comments by phatbat

23. Comment #178391 by saraswati on May 11, 2008 at 10:46 am

There are no words for how horrific this story is.

The most horrifying part for me is the fact that her mother called to her brothers for help, only to have them proceed to help with the killing. It means that there isn't the remotest difference between the generations.... how can there be change, then?

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24. Comment #178392 by Disbelief on May 11, 2008 at 10:47 am

 avatarI've lived and worked in the middle east for quite a while now and this part of arab culture never fails to amaze and sicken me.

Some of the most easy going and outwardly open minded men have told me coldly that if their wives or daughters ever brought shame on the family they would kill them.
It would be considered the right thing to do.

Although it is technically illegal the murderers would expect to face minimal punishment (as the article shows) as the judicial system would be lenient on them because they have already been humiliated by their victim.

People who believe that what this man has done is ok are animals.

Other Comments by Disbelief

25. Comment #178395 by Diacanu on May 11, 2008 at 10:53 am

 avatar

'If I had realised then what she would become, I would have killed her the instant her mother delivered her,'


See, I'm struggling here to find a moral common ground where there's a common human impulse that islam makes go off the rails, and I can't find it.

I mean, I understand why people murder in the heat of anger, I have anger, but I control it.

I understand why people steal, I've been desperate.

But this "if I knew what she'd become...", shit, I can't relate to that at all.

There's nothing my kid (if I had one) could "become", to make me want to kill them.

If my kid became a fucking flesh eating zombie, I'd be horrified and saddened, but I'd still try to cure them, and if I found myself being forced to kill them, I wouldn't be jacking off with joy about it.

I can't relate at all.
I can't find that human thread to connect it.

Only religion can do this to people.

Other Comments by Diacanu

26. Comment #178398 by mordacious1 on May 11, 2008 at 10:57 am

 avatarDiacanu What if your kid became a muslim and wanted to kill your granddaughter for making eyes at some guy. That would at least earn him a good drubbing.

Other Comments by mordacious1

27. Comment #178401 by Dhamma on May 11, 2008 at 11:00 am

 avatarSometimes, despite being opposed of the war, I'd like them to make the mid-east a parking lot. When I read what these assholes do and say, I truly cannot hold back the uncivilised barbarian in me. I question whether I'm truly against the death penalty for guys like this.

But then I realize I cannot go to their low levels, for then I'd just contribute to the hatred in this world.

Other Comments by Dhamma

28. Comment #178408 by DamnDirtyApe on May 11, 2008 at 11:13 am

 avatarThis is the monstrosity of man. Everyone must see this.

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29. Comment #178411 by Diacanu on May 11, 2008 at 11:15 am

 avatarmordacious1-

Hmm, good point.

Other Comments by Diacanu

30. Comment #178412 by Barry Pearson on May 11, 2008 at 11:21 am

 avatar
I had the support of all my friends who are fathers, like me, and know what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours his religion.
By his standards, this was a MORAL act, because he acted as Allah wanted.

Atheists are used to religious people claiming the moral high-ground. We are then on the defensive, claiming that we too can be moral, and that atheism does not inevitably result in Maoism, Stalinism, or Nazism.

But why shouldn't WE claim the moral high-ground? After all, we never justify what we do with "I thought I was doing God's will". We never excuse our errors with "Satan [or the devil] made me do it".



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31. Comment #178426 by alexmzk on May 11, 2008 at 11:54 am

i feel sick.

"Our girls should respect their religion, their family and their bodies."

"because they won't get any respect from me". barbarian.

Other Comments by alexmzk

32. Comment #178434 by phil rimmer on May 11, 2008 at 12:13 pm

 avatar
I had the support of all my friends who are fathers, like me, and know what she did was unacceptable to any Muslim that honours his religion.

Barry: By his standards, this was a MORAL act.


And this is why Diacanu can search his own brain and fail to find a scintilla of common feeling with the guy. Were it not for the cultural poison poured in his ear, this man would struggle to find such ideas in his own head. As would any of us.

This is the result of a wicked (possibly consciously derived, certainly consciously maintained) meme aimed at promoting an iron-clad faith.

On acting morally: I chose to define myself as an Atheist, having been a wishy-washy Agnostic, precisely to make a statement about my acceptance of MY moral responsibility for all my actions. It royally pisses me off that religites have the gall to confuse which of the two of us is the more civilised.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

33. Comment #178438 by clintonjason on May 11, 2008 at 12:19 pm

 avatarbelieve it or not...

I just read the title and I already knew it was about islam. The religion of peace, love and happiness!

But... ...is Family a value? really...

Other Comments by clintonjason

34. Comment #178440 by Apathy personified on May 11, 2008 at 12:26 pm

 avatarI'm speechless. There are no words for this, there can be no analysis or comment, a father and sons beat their daughter/sister to death because she was seen practising her English with somebody who was distributing aid to the poor.

No punishment is too severe for this man.

Other Comments by Apathy personified

35. Comment #178446 by Nova on May 11, 2008 at 12:39 pm

History_Junky typed:
If the west used the money it spends on war and instead decided to use that money to build schools with western education for free
I think we should have left them alone. Saddam's regime was very bad for the people but not as bad for the people as now (neighboring Saudi Arabia was much worse - Saddam's regime wasn't even Islamic) - I agree with RD that the invasion was simply revenge for 9/11. However, do you honestly believe we can just walk into these barbarian lands that despise us and say "We're just gonna build a school here that teaches western values which will eventually undermine your totalitarian regime - don't worry, completely free!"

Leila said:
She was killed by animals
No, this horror is a uniquely human weakness, this is an unintended insult to nonhuman animals.

Other Comments by Nova

36. Comment #178447 by sickofgod on May 11, 2008 at 12:40 pm

How are we going to stop these fanatics from coming to our sweet west and slowly changing our world to fit their agenda?
There will be no point in talking to thses people, we must not let them in. If there are some good ones among them they should stay there and try to change their culture.

Sickofgod.

Other Comments by sickofgod

37. Comment #178449 by clintonjason on May 11, 2008 at 12:52 pm

 avatardear Sickofgod:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=byQD8VPhvdM

enjoy

Other Comments by clintonjason

38. Comment #178450 by phil rimmer on May 11, 2008 at 12:53 pm

 avatar
Leila said: She was killed by animals


No, she was killed by the various Imams, Marjas and Mullahs who refuse to take the specific Hex of Intolerance off their people, because it serves them too well.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

39. Comment #178451 by Nairb on May 11, 2008 at 12:56 pm

 avatarI live in France. In a neighbourhood close by there is an good swimming and other sports amenity It is a poorish neighbourhood with mostly emigrants. These immigrants come from west africa and the maghreb. They are nearly all muslim.
I went there today with my 2 sons. The dressing rooms are unisex. The showers are unisex and of course the pool was unisex.The mostly women there were attractively dressed. The people male and female here were friendly and polite.

The point I want to make here is that the view of muslims expressed in the articles above is an extremist case. I have not heard ever of an honour killing in France (with 5 million muslims).

Muslim practice and behaviour is represented by the article above like Christian behavior is represented by the Waco texas incident.

For sure the muslim religion has a greater attraction to young people of muslim origin then in christanity. They are asserting their difference.
For sure the Quaran has many many things that are unacceptable. For sure the muslim religion is growing quickly ( though only 3 milion practiciing muslims are predicted for 2050). And in some countries Islam becoming radicalised.

As an athiest I want too deal directly with this tendancy. For this we need to analyse it and deal with it effectively through precision actions.

The first important step is to Perceive muslim behaviour in society AS IT IS.

The above article is factual but not representative.

Other Comments by Nairb

40. Comment #178453 by Fanusi Khiyal on May 11, 2008 at 12:59 pm


Saddam's regime wasn't even Islamic


This would be the Saddam who built the largest Mosque in the region, calling it the Mother of all Battles, conducted the Anfal war, named after a Sura, and inscribed Allahu Ackbar on the Iraqi flag? The one who turned the countries media into a factory for jihadist propaganda?

That Saddam, yes?

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

41. Comment #178455 by Big Gus on May 11, 2008 at 1:00 pm

 avatarIf I was still serving, I would be over there now and would have no problem slotting him and his sons!
I would shoot a rabid animal only with regret but them I would have no problem removing, followed by a meal and a good nights sleep.

Other Comments by Big Gus

42. Comment #178456 by epeeist on May 11, 2008 at 1:01 pm

 avatarComment #178451 by Nairb

The first important step is to Perceive muslim behaviour in society AS IT IS.

The above article is factual but not representative.
You mean like this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1524023/Honour-killings-increasing-in-Britain-as-women-stand-up-for-their-rights.html

EDIT: Fixed the URL

Other Comments by epeeist

43. Comment #178457 by Verylee on May 11, 2008 at 1:01 pm

 avatar
Cardinal Murphy O'Connor: "...having a country in which, if you like, a God free zone, a dictatorship ruled by reason, and where does it lead? To terror and oppression..."


This indoctrination has to end.
Whether it is the Imams, Cardinals or Ben Stein and his cohorts, they all suffer from the same delusions. This indoctrination has to end. They only have one agenda, and the end justifies the means.

Other Comments by Verylee

44. Comment #178458 by mordacious1 on May 11, 2008 at 1:03 pm

 avatarThere are no honor killings in France, if indeed this is true, because the bastards do not want to end up in a French prison. This is not so where this poor girl was killed, this guy is a hero to many and is reaping his rewards.

Other Comments by mordacious1

45. Comment #178459 by dansam on May 11, 2008 at 1:04 pm

Truly one of the most horrifying and frightening articles I've ever read.

Other Comments by dansam

46. Comment #178460 by Quine on May 11, 2008 at 1:05 pm

 avatarNairb, do you think the tolerance (if not support) of these killings, as expressed by the community, is also "not representative"?

Other Comments by Quine

47. Comment #178461 by Dax on May 11, 2008 at 1:07 pm

 avatarmordacious1 wrote:
There are no honor killings in France, if indeed this is true, because the bastards do not want to end up in a French prison.

I doubt it is true, seeing how honor killings happen quite frequent in other European countries such as The Netherlands and Denmark (which happen to be 2 countries always perceived as "tolerant", which is another word for "appeasing").

Other Comments by Dax

48. Comment #178462 by mordacious1 on May 11, 2008 at 1:07 pm

 avatarepeeist Your link got me nowhere, but I know it has happened outside of the islamic world.

Other Comments by mordacious1

49. Comment #178463 by Szkeptik on May 11, 2008 at 1:08 pm

"I can't understand how people want to be tolerant to such a religion... it's like asking for tolerance towards pedophiles."

I could much sooner imagine myself tolerating pedofiles than tolerating these disgusting animals.


Boy I'm sure f*cking happy I wasn't born into that piece of shit region. Why the hell do we even bother? Let's get the hell outa there and let them slaughter eachother. There might be some collateral damage but it will still be worth it to get rid of diseases like this "culture".

Other Comments by Szkeptik

50. Comment #178465 by clintonjason on May 11, 2008 at 1:09 pm

 avatarto verylee

I totally agree... but these mustn't be just words. we have to change this world now. We need action, we need coming out there and doing something. We Atheist are sometimes arrogant becose we say we're better or superior so we shouldn't act like theists. WRONG! We must form our society ang get stronger, have our circles, buildings and even our leaders. Like we are right now, we're simply nothing full of arrogance. Superiority is for God. And we don't believe in it. We are humans and we should play the game by the rules. If we don't count, then we wont change a single thing

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