Tuesday, May 13, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

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Vatican: It's OK to believe in aliens

by Yahoo News

Thanks to Amy Karls for the link.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080513/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_aliens_3

Vatican: It's OK to believe in aliens
By ARIEL DAVID, Associated Press Writer

VATICAN CITY - Believing that the universe may contain alien life does not contradict a faith in God, the Vatican's chief astronomer said in an interview published Tuesday.

The Rev. Jose Gabriel Funes, the Jesuit director of the Vatican Observatory, was quoted as saying the vastness of the universe means it is possible there could be other forms of life outside Earth, even intelligent ones.

"How can we rule out that life may have developed elsewhere?" Funes said. "Just as we consider earthly creatures as 'a brother,' and 'sister,' why should we not talk about an 'extraterrestrial brother'? It would still be part of creation."

In the interview by the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, Funes said that such a notion "doesn't contradict our faith" because aliens would still be God's creatures. Ruling out the existence of aliens would be like "putting limits" on God's creative freedom, he said.

The interview, headlined "The extraterrestrial is my brother," covered a variety of topics including the relationship between the Roman Catholic Church and science, and the theological implications of the existence of alien life.

Funes said science, especially astronomy, does not contradict religion, touching on a theme of Pope Benedict XVI, who has made exploring the relationship between faith and reason a key aspect of his papacy.

The Bible "is not a science book," Funes said, adding that he believes the Big Bang theory is the most "reasonable" explanation for the creation of the universe. The theory says the universe began billions of years ago in the explosion of a single, super-dense point that contained all matter.

But he said he continues to believe that "God is the creator of the universe and that we are not the result of chance."

Funes urged the church and the scientific community to leave behind divisions caused by Galileo's persecution 400 years ago, saying the incident has "caused wounds."

In 1633 the astronomer was tried as a heretic and forced to recant his theory that the Earth revolved around the sun. Church teaching at the time placed Earth at the center of the universe.

"The church has somehow recognized its mistakes," he said. "Maybe it could have done it better, but now it's time to heal those wounds and this can be done through calm dialogue and collaboration."

Pope John Paul declared in 1992 that the ruling against Galileo was an error resulting from "tragic mutual incomprehension."

The Vatican Observatory has been at the forefront of efforts to bridge the gap between religion and science. Its scientist-clerics have generated top-notch research and its meteorite collection is considered one of the world's best.

The observatory, founded by Pope Leo XIII in 1891, is based in Castel Gandolfo, a lakeside town in the hills outside Rome where the pope has a summer residence. It also conducts research at an observatory at the University of Arizona, in Tucson.

Posted: Tuesday, May 13, 2008 | Permalink

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1. Comment #179719 by theantitheist on May 13, 2008 at 3:02 pm

Did he also make them in his image?

I can believe Jesus was a white man from Oxford but does god look like Yoda?

Ah Adam and Eve you are, tree of knowledge forbidden is it!

On a serious note it fucking annoys me that there now trying to move into areas that logic and rationalism own and that they have previously ridiculed. And they will also try to claim the credit if we ever find them. (Yes i believe that statistically there has to be life outside of earth but no real hope of finding them in the next 10,000 years.)

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2. Comment #179720 by Vaal on May 13, 2008 at 3:05 pm

Ah, moving the goal posts again. But then, as Darth Ratzinger is from Palpatine, it is hardly surprising that they believe in Aliens :-)

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3. Comment #179723 by Quine on May 13, 2008 at 3:11 pm

So, are space aliens subject to Original Sin? If so, they are going to be pretty pissed to hear about it, given that they don't even descend from the A&E on this planet that caused the Big Fall.

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4. Comment #179727 by HourglassMemory on May 13, 2008 at 3:18 pm

It would be rather interesting having aliens invade earth and one of the first things they did was disprove god and actually give an explanation that everyone could grasp and say "oh yeah...that's actually better than a god explanation...how silly of us."
Of course if we, the human species, by definition, think that god's creatures have fallen because of human sin, they have a lot of reasons to hate us: first, because we say they're full of sin as soon as they arrive. And second they'd want to kill the species that gave them the sin.
That damn Eve!

Even with extraterrestrial interactions, religion ruins it all for us.

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5. Comment #179732 by Alkal on May 13, 2008 at 3:28 pm

How many more weeks till they say "Evolution is ok"?????
It happened
:D

Other Comments by Alkal

6. Comment #179734 by theantitheist on May 13, 2008 at 3:28 pm

Darth Ratzinger vs Yodagod

Interesting match up. We all know who wins this one in the short term. But long term yoda will always be there spying in and hugging Jesus Waterwalker. I'm going home now and putting Star Wars on, i've gone all nostalgic.

Other Comments by theantitheist

7. Comment #179739 by Vaal on May 13, 2008 at 3:37 pm

New film by Ben Stein.. Aliens Expelled!!

Darwinism is to be blamed for the invasion of the Earth by the Godless Zeeerookks, who claim that God was made in THEIR image!! That desert God gets about...

Other Comments by Vaal

8. Comment #179740 by Barry Pearson on May 13, 2008 at 3:41 pm

When thinking about aliens, it would be more interesting for the Vatican to ponder Jesus rather than God.

After all, even aliens might believe in a deist god. But concepts like "virgin birth", "crucifixion", "resurection", "loaves & fishes", might be completely meaningless (even alien!) to those aliens with their different biology.

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9. Comment #179741 by mjwemdee on May 13, 2008 at 3:42 pm

Funes urged the church and the scientific community to leave behind divisions caused by Galileo's persecution 400 years ago, saying the incident has "caused wounds."

Yes, let's forget all about it, shall we, forget that the RC Church in all its majesty and omnipotence hounded the most brilliant scholar of his age, suppressed his books, forced him to recant his teaching and (because they didn't dare to kill him outright) placed him under house arrest for the rest of his days. 'The incident' !!!! They clearly think they did something slightly naughty, like serving tea without a doily. And how long did it take John-Paul to make a half-hearted apology? More than 350 fucking years!!!

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10. Comment #179744 by Apathy personified on May 13, 2008 at 3:49 pm

How does the Vatican know that the aliens aren't already among us?

antithiest and quine make very good points, are the aliens made in gods own image and are they implicated in the scandal that was 'forbiddenfruitgate'

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11. Comment #179749 by theantitheist on May 13, 2008 at 4:08 pm

Ahh i think i've got it. god is all powerful and is of course all shapes and sizes and no shape or size. Sooooo by saying we are made in his image because of the 'he is everything ruling' we are technically made in his/her/it's image as is everything else including the Klingons (original and next generation) and SuperTed.

Fuking obvious really i feel a bit daft for not putting it together earlier.

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12. Comment #179754 by Demotruk on May 13, 2008 at 4:20 pm

The Catholic church is evolving. They know they're not going to win youths over in an increasingly secular Europe with ideas that glaringly contradict science, so they're changing God into this vague, undisprovable thing that has less and less association with the Bible. The bible stories are increasingly non-literal, and they don't promote reading the bible for yourself in the way protestant churches might. They retain the silly things they stand for like the sanctity of human life(even when it's just one cell), but overall, this is just a step towards a vague 'modern' idea of God that allows them to retain credibility in a society that can easily reject the religions that don't move with the times.

It'll be it's own downfall in the end though. Being vague means that it won't impose it's own view, allowing people to learn science, reason and critical thinking for themselves, which are what kill even the deist God.

(I mention Europe specifically because that's where the real battle is. Converting africans doesn't require strong memes, it requires priests bringing aid along with sermons).

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13. Comment #179755 by Ty_Webb on May 13, 2008 at 4:22 pm

Well, I'm thinking it's a crying shame that God didn't bother to mention this when he was penning the old bible. I may have found that reasonably convincing (at least believable that the bible wasn't written by a few stone age peasants 2,000 years ago) if there were a couple of paragraphs in there along the lines of "oh yes, and I stuck some life on a couple of other planets too. These are the coordinates... Not that these will mean anything to you for a couple of thousand years, but heyho"

Or maybe he did and the Nicene wotsit decided against its inclusion because it was obviously heretical. Shows what they knew.

On a slightly more serious note, I think the vatican is concerned that we may find evidence of extraterrestrial life and that this will be another nail in the coffin for religion. Hence, they go out of their way to prepare a defence. It's pathetic IMHO.

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14. Comment #179760 by liberalartist on May 13, 2008 at 4:31 pm

religion has to get fuzzier and fuzzier to accommodate all the scientific discoveries. This is a case a priest who doesn't really follow all the old vatican rules and just wants a "feel-good faith", one that appeals to everyone and everything, even aliens!

Alkal - they already say evolution is okay, well so long as it means god created evolution. See, with every new scientific discovery, they must apply "god" in order to keep a step ahead, and their delusions intact.

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15. Comment #179764 by Diacanu on May 13, 2008 at 4:50 pm

Vatican: It's all right to cry

It's aaall right to cryyyy!!
Cryyyying gets the sad out of you!
It's aaaall right to cryyyy!
It might make you feel better!

Raindrops from your eyyyyyes!
Waaashing all the mad out of you!
Raindrops from your eyyyyes!
It's gonna make you feel better!

(I dunno why that popped into my head. My brain is just a big mixed up Youtube jukebox from hell, really)

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16. Comment #179765 by Wosret on May 13, 2008 at 4:57 pm

(*Sigh*) since theists only believe what they would like to be true, naturally nothing is incompatible with what they would like to be true, because they wouldn't like that.

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17. Comment #179772 by rivetheretic on May 13, 2008 at 5:47 pm

You can't assume that the Catholics are always going to agree with Protestant fundamentalist and Biblical literalists. Theists come in many flavors.

Catholics are not part of the "every word of the Bible is the literal truth" crowd. I don't think they ever were. Their line is, and has been for a long while, that the Church is the only legitimate interpreter of religious truth, including the Bible.

So, this sort of announcement is to be expected. They always need to update what a Catholic is allowed to believe and what they are required to believe.

Catholics, at least not the leadership, are not part of the young earth, ID, creationist kookiness. It isn't part of the party line at any rate (though they don't discourage it either). Catholics are permitted to believe in evolution. They are permitted to believe in a 15 billion year old universe. No problem. They are, however last I checked, required to believe that at some point during evolution, God added an immortal soul to humans.

That's what I find interesting about this announcement. I don't see a ruling on whether Catholics can believe in alien intelligence. I see alien life, but not intelligence. Also, I don't see anything on whether such aliens would have an immortal soul. That's where it get's interesting. The reason that I say that there are different rules regarding expected behavior to those with and without souls. Is it murder when you kill them? Do you have to keep your promises to them? All kinds of things.

Of course, they'll probably never have to answer those questions. But if they do, you can expect a similar announcement then.

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18. Comment #179775 by Diacanu on May 13, 2008 at 5:54 pm

rivetheretic-

Catholics, at least not the leadership, are not part of the young earth, ID, creationist kookiness.

No, just part of the "sex out of wedlock and/or with birth control is evil unless it's banging boys", kookiness.

Other Comments by Diacanu

19. Comment #179776 by HappyPrimate on May 13, 2008 at 5:55 pm

Please check out the article in the BBC news website. It says that it is possible that the aliens, should they exist, may be without original sin. How ridiculous can they get? I guess the vatican will be sending space ships of missionaries soon so these poor creatures (who obviously will look like humans) can hear the message and in the meantime, rip off all their resources, especially gold if they have any.

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20. Comment #179778 by Ed-words on May 13, 2008 at 5:56 pm

Maybe the earth's religiholics are

extra-terrestrial missionaries,"hell-bent"

on colonizing other planets for their gods.

(Sweet dreams)

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21. Comment #179780 by riki on May 13, 2008 at 6:01 pm

This brings up so many questions

Did Jesus also die to save alien souls?

Did he die just once on earth or did he do a tour of the cosmos?

Do aliens have souls or are they souless like dogs and other lowly animals?

Does this mean that there could be aliens in heaven?

Do aliens need to be Catholic to get into heaven?

Were the aliens also created in the image of God?

Could the aliens be free from original sin?

If the aliens were created in the image of God and free from sin, if we procreate with an alien, will the baby be half-n-half? As in on half free of original sin.

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22. Comment #179784 by Quine on May 13, 2008 at 6:16 pm

Aliens from a world without sin??? Wow! We could turn our whole planet into the galactic Las Vegas and make every human fabulously wealthy!!

"What happens on Earth, stays on Earth."

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23. Comment #179786 by steveroot on May 13, 2008 at 6:23 pm

15. Comment #179764 by Diacanu on May 13, 2008 at 4:50 pm
Vatican: It's all right to cry

It's aaall right to cryyyy!!
Cryyyying gets the sad out of you!
It's aaaall right to cryyyy!
It might make you feel better!

Raindrops from your eyyyyyes!
Waaashing all the mad out of you!
Raindrops from your eyyyyes!
It's gonna make you feel better!

(I dunno why that popped into my head. My brain is just a big mixed up Youtube jukebox from hell, really)

Diacanu, I never would have imagined you channeling Rosey Grier!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_to_Be…_You_and_Me
"Free to be You and Me"!
Ste5e

Edit: For some retarded reason, the url for this Rosey Grier opus won't display. I have prayed to Quetz and FSM without success. Interested parties can Google "Rosey Grier" and follow the link to "Free to be..."

Other Comments by steveroot

24. Comment #179787 by rivetheretic on May 13, 2008 at 6:23 pm

Please check out the article in the BBC news website. It says that it is possible that the aliens, should they exist, may be without original sin.

Here's the BBC link:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7399661.stm">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7399661.stm

Right, I didn't see that. This is more like an interview than an announcement. It seems to me that he's speaking more as a knowledgeable Church official rather than giving out new guidance.

He's speculating on things that he hasn't been told he can't speculate on and using his Catholic beliefs as a base.

Adam and Eve committed Original Sin. So their decedents have Original Sin (except for Mary). No alien Adam? God created them separately from humans; they may not have Original Sin.

Catholics have a long tradition of this sort of quirky "reasoning". They start with premises from revealed or observed "truth" and then proceed through deductive reasoning. When they come to a point where the reasoning would take them to a place that contradicts a Church teaching, they jump to the Church teaching and continue. It's jarring, and sometimes really weird. If I had to choose though, I'd take that over the outright hatred and outright rejection of reason that many other religionists teach.

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25. Comment #179788 by robotaholic on May 13, 2008 at 6:28 pm

But he said he continues to believe that "God is the creator of the universe and that we are not the result of chance."

-Chance- that ugly word rears it's head yet again - I wish someone would explain to this man that evolution through natural selection is just about the opposite of chance.

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26. Comment #179789 by History_Junky on May 13, 2008 at 6:37 pm

Those poor bastards, they didn't even have the opportunity to redeem themselves from their sin :(

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27. Comment #179795 by rivetheretic on May 13, 2008 at 6:49 pm

No, just part of the "sex out of wedlock and/or with birth control is evil unless it's banging boys", kookiness.

sex out of wedlock is evil - Check, thought they may quibble about the word evil.

birth control is evil - Check (see above about evil)

kookiness - Check. I think it's important not to paint people with the same brush though. Judge them by their own beliefs, not somebody else's.

sexual abuse - They do consider this to be a sin. I'd say that they consider it to be more evil than the above two. The problem is that they treated it as a sin and not a crime which is how we expect those who are responsible for children to treat it.

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28. Comment #179797 by Ansu on May 13, 2008 at 6:53 pm

- If they die, they have commited the original sin.
So shoot em in the head* and if they die you can evangelize them

*if they have no heads, or you just cant find it , just use a flame thrower. In case they are still alive, be creative.

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29. Comment #179804 by Diacanu on May 13, 2008 at 7:42 pm

The problem is that they treated it as a sin and not a crime which is how we expect those who are responsible for children to treat it.

Then "sin", is meaningless junk language, and their estimation of good and evil is equally worthless to me.

Other Comments by Diacanu

30. Comment #179805 by Pieter on May 13, 2008 at 7:44 pm

Is anyone else here suddenly reminded of that South Park episode with the Gelgamek Catholics?

"The Gelgamek vagina is over three meters wide and filled with razor sharp teeth. Do you really expect us to have sex with them?!?"

surreal.

Other Comments by Pieter

31. Comment #179806 by EvidenceOnly on May 13, 2008 at 7:46 pm

In 1632, the Vatican convicted Galileo for his scientific evidence that our planet orbited around our sun.

In 1992 Pope John Paul II expressed regret for how Galileo was treated.

In 2008, Pope Benedict XVI stated that the Church really did the right thing in 1632.

Weeks later, they believe that aliens exist?

How about embracing total equality of everyone irrespective of gender and sexual orientation, contraception, women's right to choose, same sex marriage and a slew of other social issues where they are hopelessly behind the times.

Isn't that of much higher priority than to belief in aliens?

Or are they counting on the aliens to make this happen?

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32. Comment #179807 by Diacanu on May 13, 2008 at 7:49 pm

EvidenceOnly-

How about embracing total equality of everyone irrespective of gender and sexual orientation, contraception, women's right to choose, same sex marriage and a slew of other social issues where they are hopelessly behind the times.

Then they wouldn't be catholics anymore.
;)

It'd be like having a multi-racial Ku Klux Klan.

Other Comments by Diacanu

33. Comment #179808 by Grantaire of JC on May 13, 2008 at 7:50 pm

Gee, what's next, a rewrite of the bible indicating that the entire Earth was the Garden of Eden and that the early writers misunderstood the meaning of the word of God? Boy that allows all future "edits" also. How creative. Well catholic does mean universal doesn't it?

Other Comments by Grantaire of JC

34. Comment #179811 by Atheist_from_Hell on May 13, 2008 at 7:55 pm

Funes said science, especially astronomy, does not contradict religion, touching on a theme of Pope Benedict XVI, who has made exploring the relationship between faith and reason a key aspect of his papacy.

Let me see if I can help the pope by doing his work for him. What's the relationship between faith and reason?

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

Other Comments by Atheist_from_Hell

35. Comment #179814 by Geodesic17 on May 13, 2008 at 8:02 pm

Hypothetically, we could find life on a moon of Saturn or Jupiter. The Catholics will be prepared to accept evidence of life on other planets or moons. The Creationists will probably follow the flat earthers and claim it is a hoax.

It is also true that you cannot put Jesus or the Holy Trinity into a particle accelerator, for various reasons, of course.

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36. Comment #179816 by dot on May 13, 2008 at 8:07 pm

i guess the pope would know

http://www.catholic.ie

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37. Comment #179820 by Quine on May 13, 2008 at 8:15 pm

Thanks, dot, loved it.

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38. Comment #179822 by scotriani on May 13, 2008 at 8:23 pm

Would God let humans have command over the aliens as he did with all living things on earth?

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39. Comment #179823 by Mbee on May 13, 2008 at 8:24 pm

Hilarious - I needed that.

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40. Comment #179835 by mordacious1 on May 13, 2008 at 8:51 pm

So like, is that real big hat the pope wears stuffed full of aluminum foil?

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41. Comment #179838 by Marc Weeks on May 13, 2008 at 9:08 pm

There's that word "chance" again.

What was the analogy Carl Sagan (or maybe it was Richard himself) used about the probability of chimps accidentally typing a Shakespearean play? Of course it would be nearly impossible, unless the chimps received some sort of acknowledgement as they typed that they had chosen the correct letters (an analogy, I guess, to a favorable adaptation to an environment).

Do I have that right?

You folks are all pretty smart--even when your exasperation makes you stray into invective and ad homi...hominm...ad honomym...uh...name calling. But no one ever said these posts have to be publishable.

Keep up the good work. I appreciate it.

Other Comments by Marc Weeks

42. Comment #179840 by Quine on May 13, 2008 at 9:16 pm

Marc, check out the Sagan video I posted in this comment. I think you will like it.

Other Comments by Quine

43. Comment #179842 by Drew on May 13, 2008 at 9:23 pm

Has the Vatican simply decided to climb into bed with the scientologists. Pope Tom anyone?

Other Comments by Drew

44. Comment #179844 by cowalker on May 13, 2008 at 9:36 pm

When we meet the extraterrestrials, you know what's going to drive them crazy--trying to figure out which ones have the proper genitalia for ordination. What if they have three or more genders? What if they're all hermaphrodites? What if they reproduce asexually? What if they are different genders at different times in their lives?

Wow. What a conundrum. How can they tell which ones have the alien equivalent of a penis so they know which ones Jesus thought were good enough to be priests?

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45. Comment #179845 by jamesspills on May 13, 2008 at 9:36 pm

They really do want to eat their cake and have it too don't they?

*facepalm*

Other Comments by jamesspills

46. Comment #179851 by Styrer- on May 13, 2008 at 9:56 pm

Maybe it could have done it better, but now it's time to heal those wounds and this can be done through calm dialogue and collaboration.

Fucking typical Catholic syntax.

Note how neither agent nor recipient is specified: who made the fucking 'wounds'?; who received these wounds?

No answer here. One can almost hear the slinking away of both criminal and victim into the nebulous ether of unspecific language.

Fuck that.

Such 'wounds' - I can infer with justification that these stem from violence, verbal and physical abuse, sexual molestation and rape - will be 'healed' by - wait for it - 'calm dialogue and collaboration'.

These 'wounds' were crimes, carried out by the church, and hushed up over years. The WOUNDED are those who have had their lives disfigured by the rampant immorality surging through an institution which is incapable of, any longer, professing any moral superiority WHAT SO FUCKING EVER.

The proposed remedy of 'calm dialogue and collaboration' is, frankly, a horrifically ignorant and disgustingly unsympathetic response to EVERY SINGLE victim of the Roman Catholic Cult, and the light measure of its expression demonstrates for all to see the levity with which it treats this matter.

I am shaking with anger. I trust I am not alone.

Cunts.

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

47. Comment #179865 by Marc Weeks on May 13, 2008 at 10:48 pm

Thanks, Quine, it's always nice to hear Carl again, and I'm glad that so much of his work is online. He was better than any teacher I ever had. I'm glad I got to hear him lecture in Berkeley (I got to hear Stephen Hawking there, too, years later). I remember intentionally forfeiting a tournament chess game so I could be there when Carl's lecture started. I should have kept playing, though, because the person introducing Carl decided to list all of his awards and honors. I might have been able to play another game! It was an interesting talk he gave, but he struggled to make it easier for the uninitiated but also technical enough for the UC Berkeley crowd. I just had the sense of an enormous intellect lurking below the surface, which was the same way I felt about Stephen Jay Gould.

Okay, sorry, I'm gushing. Carl did no wrong in my eyes, mainly because of the way that he inspired me to increase my awareness of the sciences, even if I lacked the discipline for a formal education.

My favorite Carl quote was concerning the efficacy of bomb shelters, given the yields of the nuclear weapons of the day: "They will serve as efficient crematoria for those who do not wish to litter the streets."

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48. Comment #179867 by mspadorchard on May 13, 2008 at 10:51 pm

http://www.koreus.com/video/animateur.html

In the begining.... :)

Mike O.

Other Comments by mspadorchard

49. Comment #179868 by 82abhilash on May 13, 2008 at 10:55 pm

Seems to me like some sort of advertisement because their product (Catholicism) is losing popularity.

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50. Comment #179871 by sickofgod on May 13, 2008 at 11:01 pm

Does the pope know something we don't? Is he preparing his followers for the inevitable?
I wonder what the jews will say, and I'm worried the muslims might see it as an insult to mohamad and would want to kill the alien...

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