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Monday, October 30, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Why there is no God

by Richard Dawkins / The Times (UK)

Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7-2428935.html

People who claim to have seen God are delusional and Thomas Aquinas's logic was flawed, our correspondent argues in an extract from his bestselling book

One of the cleverer and more mature of my undergraduate contemporaries, who was deeply religious, went camping in the Scottish isles. In the middle of the night he and his girlfriend were woken in their tent by the voice of the devil — Satan himself; there could be no possible doubt: the voice was in every sense diabolical. My friend would never forget this horrifying experience, and it was one of the factors that later drove him to be ordained. My youthful self was impressed by his story, and I recounted it to a gathering of zoologists relaxing in the Rose and Crown Inn, Oxford. Two of them happened to be experienced ornithologists, and they roared with laughter. "Manx shearwater!" they shouted in delighted chorus. One of them added that the diabolical shrieks and cackles of this species have earned it, in various parts of the world and various languages, the local nickname "Devil Bird".

The argument from personal experience is the one that is most convincing to those who claim to have had one. But it is the least convincing to anyone else, especially anyone knowledgeable about psychology. Many people believe in God because they believe they have seen a vision of him — or of an angel or a virgin in blue — with their own eyes. Or he speaks to them inside their heads.

You say you have experienced God directly? Well, some people have experienced a pink elephant, but that probably doesn't impress you.

Peter Sutcliffe, the Yorkshire Ripper, distinctly heard the voice of Jesus telling him to kill women, and he was locked up for life. George W. Bush says that God told him to invade Iraq (a pity God didn't vouchsafe him a revelation that there were no weapons of mass destruction).

Individuals in asylums think they are Napoleon or Charlie Chaplin, or that the entire world is conspiring against them, or that they can broadcast their thoughts into other people's heads. We humour them but don't take their internally revealed beliefs seriously, mostly because not many people share them.

Religious experiences are different only in that the people who claim them are numerous. Sam Harris was not being overly cynical when he wrote, in The End of Faith: "We have names for people who have many beliefs for which there is no rational justification. When their beliefs are extremely common we call them 'religious'; otherwise, they are likely to be called 'mad', 'psychotic' or ' delusional'... Clearly there is sanity in numbers. And yet, it is merely an accident of history that it is considered normal in our society to believe that the Creator of the universe can hear your thoughts, while it is demonstrative of mental illness to believe that he is communicating with you by having the rain tap in Morse code on your bedroom window. And so, while religious people are not generally mad, their core beliefs absolutely are."

The human brain runs first-class simulation software. Our eyes don't present to our brains a faithful photograph of what is out there, or an accurate movie of what is going on through time. Our brains construct a continuously updated model: updated by coded pulses chattering along the optic nerve, but constructed nevertheless. Optical illusions are vivid reminders of this. A major class of illusions, of which the Necker Cube is an example, arise because the sense data that the brain receives are compatible with two alternative models of reality. The brain, having no basis for choosing between them, alternates, and we experience a series of flips from one internal model to the other. The picture we are looking at appears, almost literally, to flip over and become something else.

The simulation software in the brain is especially adept at constructing faces and voices. I have on my windowsill a plastic mask of Einstein. When seen from the front, it looks like a solid face; not surprisingly. What is surprising is that, when seen from behind — the hollow side — it also looks like a solid face, and our perception of it is very odd indeed. As the viewer moves around, the face seems to follow — and not in the weak, unconvincing sense that the Mona Lisa's eyes are said to follow you. The hollow mask really really looks as though it is moving.

People who haven't previously seen the illusion gasp with amazement. Even stranger, if the mask is mounted on a slowly rotating turntable, it appears to turn in the correct direction when you are looking at the solid side, but in the opposite direction when the hollow side comes into view. The result is that, when you watch the transition from one side to the other, the coming side appears to "eat" the going side. It is a stunning illusion, well worth going to some trouble to see. Sometimes you can get surprisingly close to the hollow face and still not see that it is really hollow. When you do see it, again there is a sudden flip, which may be reversible.

Why does it happen? There is no trick in the construction of the mask. Any hollow mask will do it. The trickery is all in the brain of the beholder. The internal simulating software receives data indicating the presence of a face, perhaps nothing more than a pair of eyes, a nose and a mouth in approximately the right places. Having received these sketchy clues, the brain does the rest. The face simulation software kicks into action and it constructs a fully solid model of a face, even though the reality presented to the eyes is a hollow mask. The illusion of rotation in the wrong direction comes about because (it's quite hard, but if you think it through carefully you will confirm it) reverse rotation is the only way to make sense of the optical data when a hollow mask rotates while being perceived to be a solid mask. It is like the illusion of a rotating radar dish that you sometimes see at airports. Until the brain flips to the correct model of the radar dish, an incorrect model is seen rotating in the wrong direction but in a weirdly cockeyed way.

I say all this just to demonstrate the formidable power of the brain's simulation software. It is well capable of constructing "visions" and "visitations" of the utmost veridical power. To simulate a ghost or an angel or a Virgin Mary would be child's play to software of this sophistication.

Once, as a child, I heard a ghost: a male voice murmuring, as if in recitation or prayer. I could almost, but not quite, make out the words, which seemed to have a serious, solemn timbre. I had been told stories of priest holes in ancient houses, and I was a little frightened. But I got out of bed and crept up on the source of the sound. As I got closer, it grew louder, and then suddenly it "flipped" inside my head. I was now close enough to discern what it really was. The wind, gusting through the keyhole, was creating sounds which the simulation software in my brain had used to construct a model of male speech, solemnly intoned.

Had I been a more impressionable child, it is possible that I would have "heard" not just unintelligible speech but particular words and even sentences. And had I been both impressionable and religiously brought-up, I wonder what words the wind might have spoken.

On another occasion, when I was about the same age, I saw a giant round face gazing, with unspeakable malevolence, out through the window of an otherwise ordinary house in a seaside village. In trepidation, I approached until I was close enough to see what it really was: just a vaguely face-like pattern created by the chance fall of the curtains. The face itself, and its evil mien, had been constructed in my fearful child's brain. On September 11, 2001, pious people thought they saw the face of Satan in the smoke rising from the twin towers, a superstition backed by a photograph which was published on the internet and widely circulated.

Constructing models is something the human brain is very good at. When we are asleep it is called dreaming; when we are awake we call it imagination or, when it is exceptionally vivid, hallucination. Children who have imaginary friends sometimes see them clearly, exactly as if they were real. If we are gullible, we don't recognise hallucination or lucid dreaming for what it is and we claim to have seen or heard a ghost; or an angel; or God; or — especially if we happen to be young, female and Catholic — the Virgin Mary. Such visions and manifestations are certainly not good grounds for believing that ghosts or angels, gods or virgins, are actually there.

On the face of it mass visions, such as the report that 70,000 pilgrims at Fatima in Portugal in 1917 saw the sun "tear itself from the heavens and come crashing down upon the multitude", are harder to write off.

It is not easy to explain how 70,000 people could share the same hallucination. But it is even harder to accept that it really happened without the rest of the world, outside Fatima, seeing it too — and not just seeing it, but feeling it as the catastrophic destruction of the solar system, including acceleration forces sufficient to hurl everybody into space. David Hume's pithy test for a miracle comes irresistibly to mind: "No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such a kind, that its falsehood would be more miraculous than the fact which it endeavours to establish." It may seem improbable that 70,000 people could simultaneously be deluded, or could simultaneously collude in a mass lie. Or that history is mistaken in recording that 70,000 people claimed to see the sun dance. Or that they all simultaneously saw a mirage (they had been persuaded to stare at the sun, which can't have done much for their eyesight). But any of those apparent improbabilities is far more probable than the alternative: that the Earth was suddenly yanked sideways in its orbit, and the solar system destroyed, with nobody outside Fatima noticing. I mean, Portugal is not that isolated (although admittedly my wife's parents once stayed in a Paris hotel called the Hotel de l'Univers et du Portugal).

That is really all that needs to be said about personal "experiences" of gods or other religious phenomena. If you've had such an experience, you may well find yourself believing firmly that it was real. But don't expect the rest of us to take your word for it, especially if we have the slightest familiarity with the brain and its powerful workings.


© Richard Dawkins 2006
The God Delusion is published by Bantam Press at £20. Available from Times BooksFirst at £17.99, free p&p. Call 0870 1608080

THOMAS AQUINAS, THE FIVE PROOFS, AND HOW HE GOT IT WRONG

The five "proofs" asserted by Thomas Aquinas in the 13th century don't prove anything, and are easily — though I hesitate to say so, given his eminence — exposed as vacuous. The first three are just different ways of saying the same thing, and they can be considered together. All involve an infinite regress — the answer to a question raises a prior question, and so on ad infinitum.


1 The Unmoved Mover

Nothing moves without a prior mover. This leads us to an infinite regress, from which the only escape is God. Something had to make the first move, and that something we call God.


2 The Uncaused Cause

Nothing is caused by itself. Every effect has a prior cause, and again we are pushed back into infinite regress. This has to be terminated by a first cause, which we call God.


3 The Cosmological Argument

There must have been a time when no physical things existed. But, since physical things exist now, there must have been something non-physical to bring them into existence, and that something we call God.

All three of these arguments rely upon the idea of an infinite regress and invoke God to terminate it. They make the entirely unwarranted assumption that God himself is immune to the regress. Even if we allow the dubious luxury of arbitrarily conjuring up a terminator to an infinite regress and giving it a name, simply because we need one, there is absolutely no reason to endow that terminator with any of the properties normally ascribed to God; omnipotence, omniscience, goodness, creativity of design, to say nothing of such human attributes as listening to prayers, forgiving sins and reading innermost thoughts.

Edward Lear's Nonsense Recipe for Crumboblious Cutlets invites us to "Procure some strips of beef, and having cut them into the smallest possible pieces, proceed to cut them still smaller, eight or perhaps nine times." Some regresses do reach a natural terminator. Scientists used to wonder what would happen if you could dissect, say, gold into the smallest possible pieces. Why shouldn't you cut one of those pieces in half and produce an even smaller smidgin of gold? The regress in this case is decisively terminated by the atom. The smallest possible piece of gold is a nucleus consisting of exactly 79 protons and a slightly larger number of neutrons, surrounded by a swarm of 79 electrons. If you "cut" gold any further than the level of the single atom, whatever else you get it is not gold. The atom provides a natural terminator to the Crumboblious Cutlets type of regress. It is by no means clear that God provides a natural terminator to the regresses of Aquinas.

Let's move on down Aquinas's list.


4 The Argument from Degree

We notice that things in the world differ. There are degrees of, say, goodness or perfection. But we judge these degrees only by comparison with a maximum. Humans can be both good and bad, so the maximum goodness cannot rest in us. Therefore there must be some other maximum to set the standard for perfection, and we call that maximum God.

That's an argument? You might as well say, people vary in smelliness but we can make the comparison only by reference to a perfect maximum of conceivable smelliness. Therefore there must exist a pre-eminently peerless stinker, and we call him God. Or substitute any dimension of comparison you like and derive an equivalently fatuous conclusion.


5 The Teleological Argument, or Argument from Design

Things in the world, especially living things, look as though they have been designed. Nothing that we know looks designed unless it is designed. Therefore there must have been a designer, and we call him God. Aquinas himself used the analogy of an arrow moving towards a target, but a modern heat-seeking anti-aircraft missile would have suited his purpose better.

The argument from design is the only one still in regular use today, and it still sounds to many like the ultimate knockdown argument. The young Darwin was impressed by it when, as a Cambridge undergraduate, he read it in William Paley's Natural Theology. Unfortunately for Paley, the mature Darwin blew it out of the water. There has probably never been a more devastating rout of popular belief by clever reasoning than Charles Darwin's destruction of the argument from design. It was so unexpected.

Thanks to Darwin, it is no longer true to say that nothing that we know looks designed unless it is designed. Evolution by natural selection produces an excellent simulacrum of design, mounting prodigious heights of complexity and elegance. And among these eminences of pseudo-design are nervous systems which — among their more modest accomplishments — manifest goal-seeking behaviour that, even in a tiny insect, resembles a sophisticated heat-seeking missile more than a simple arrow on target.

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1. Comment #3635 by Martin on October 31, 2006 at 12:29 am

I disagree.. each question raises another question.

If the answer is "God" then the next question is "who created God?" and "who created the creator of god?" and "who created the creator of the creator of god?". Infinite regress without termination (well.. duh.. or it wouldn't be infinite would it :P).

My favourite creationist arguement (which is beautifully self defeating) is that nothing can come from nothing. Therefore the world came from god. BUT if nothing can come from nothing, where did god come from?

2. Comment #3642 by Martin on October 31, 2006 at 2:11 am

You might wonder if religion is a misapplication of Occam's Razor.

1) The Universe exists because of this huge amount of statisctical reasoning, rational thought and logical dedudction.

2) "God did it"

Well, the simple answer certainly appears to be 2; until you realise that "god" is anything but simple.

3. Comment #3646 by Simmons on October 31, 2006 at 2:57 am

1) The Universe exists because of this huge amount of statisctical reasoning, rational thought and logical dedudction.

2) "God did it"


Not quite. Compare:

1. The Universe exists, it is governed by natural laws and most phenomena have perfectly good naturalistic explanations.

2. The Universe exists, it is governed by natural laws and most phenomena have perfectly good naturalistic explanations, but god did it all anyway.

4. Comment #3647 by Simmons on October 31, 2006 at 3:00 am

@ Stephen Coan

"Or to put it another way, if there was a Big Bang who/what lit the fuse?"

We don't know yet. There was also a time when we couldn't explain the sun in the sky and lightning in the storm clouds. Both of these things were erroneously attributed to god.

5. Comment #3650 by Martin on October 31, 2006 at 3:13 am

Stephen Coan:

The scientific answer is that we don't know yet. Lots of people, mostly cosmologists and physists are working on it.

Who said there was a fuse to light? We can speculate as much as we like, since we don't know yet.

While "God" is one answer to the question, it is a very improbable answer, since "god" if he/she/it/they were to exist it would be a very complex entity, and a complex entity is extremely difficult to explain unless you use something like evolution. That then implies that there must be some kind of precursor universe in which life developed and culminated in a being "god" able to create another universe. Of course, leaving aside the question of how that precursor universe was created, your are still left with a very complex scenario versus a simple one.

If there was a precursor universe, why not a simple natural event that results in another universe (a special type of black hole or something we've not discovered yet), maybe a duplicate universe, maybe universes evolve and reproduce! Certainly such an answer to "where did the universe come from?" is much easier to accept to a rational mind than having a complex entity like a god create it.

As good old friar Occam says.. the simplest answer is usually the correct one.

6. Comment #3651 by Martin on October 31, 2006 at 3:16 am

@Simmons

The point I was making was that people like simple answers, which is in effect what Occam's Razor is all about (ok so that's a simplistic view of Occam's razor, I rest my case :P )

Your re-writing of my 2 statments puts them into the correct equivalence. My point was thought that for most people "god did it" is a very simple answer. They don't need to worry about the rest of it then.

7. Comment #3652 by Martin on October 31, 2006 at 3:20 am

@Daniel

That example is sophestry.

I can use it make my point just as easily.

"Existence is handed down the chain of causes, from cause to effect. If there is no first cause, no being who is eternal and self-sufficient, no being who has existence by his own nature and does not have to borrow it from someone else, then the gift of existence can never be passed down the chain to others, and no one will ever get it. But we did get it. We exist."

Therefore we have always existed, therefore eveyone has a copy of the book.

The two statements while each valide are not related. It's like saying: Apples are Red, Traffic Lights are Red, therefore Traffic lights are Apples.

8. Comment #3653 by Simmons on October 31, 2006 at 3:32 am

"@Simmons

The point I was making was that people like simple answers, which is in effect what Occam's Razor is all about (ok so that's a simplistic view of Occam's razor, I rest my case :P )

Your re-writing of my 2 statments puts them into the correct equivalence. My point was thought that for most people "god did it" is a very simple answer. They don't need to worry about the rest of it then."

I understand that, but I was trying to highlight the true nature of Occam's razor.

9. Comment #3712 by William on October 31, 2006 at 8:29 am

Asana said:

>>There is one God with many names.<<

HOW do you know this? An extraordinary claim, requires extraordinary proof - to coin a well-versed statement.

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF, PLEASE? Please tell us how you know this. I'd be delighted to learn how you know this. I will dispense with my Atheism, if you can tell me how you know this.

Kind Regards, William.

10. Comment #3717 by William on October 31, 2006 at 8:46 am

Asana said:

>>Because the term God means The Possessor of The Highest Rank and since only one can possess the Highest Rank there can then be only one "God<<

You are talking nonesense. Are you deliberately avoiding my question? Do you understand English?

EXPLAIN TO ME HOW YOU KNOW GOD CAN THE ONLY ONE TRUE GOD AND HOW GOD EXISTS?

Explain this to me in English - not riddles. Where is your proof, your evidence for God? The Bible? Please explain this to me and I will dispense with my Atheism.

Kind Regards, William.

11. Comment #3719 by David S on October 31, 2006 at 8:58 am

As far as I'm concerned, Asana said absolutely nothing. For example: There is no effect but the effect and the cause is the imagination of the Human that posits it. The effect is always there with no need of cause... therefore there is no god by any name. What did I just say? I have no idea but maybe Asana can tell me.

Also, as far as I'm concerned, we did invent 2+2=4.

12. Comment #3722 by William on October 31, 2006 at 9:04 am

Hello David!

I am awaiting Asana's response to my earlier question. As usual Asana is playing the Theist game of avoidment of a direct question.

I WANT TO KNOW HOW ASANA KNOWS THAT GOD EXISTS? WHAT EVIDENCE DOES ASANA PRESENT TO US HERE? I WILL DISPENSE WITH ATHEISM ONCE ASANA PROVIDES THE EVIDENCE AND NOT RIDDLES.

Kind Regards, William.

13. Comment #3724 by David S on October 31, 2006 at 9:13 am

William, I am quite sure your atheism is safe.

-Cheers
David

PS. I will take a shot at answering for Asana. By definition God exists, therefore God must exist.

Is that enough to make you concede defeat? No? How unreasonable we atheists are when faced with solid circular logic.

14. Comment #3726 by Jamie on October 31, 2006 at 9:28 am

You can't prove God exists just as much as you can't prove he doesn't exist.

15. Comment #3727 by Anonymous on October 31, 2006 at 9:28 am

Even Dawkins would concede that.

16. Comment #3729 by David S on October 31, 2006 at 9:46 am

Both comment #3726 by Jamie and comment #3727 are incorrect.

It is very important to understand that you can actually prove the existence of something if it does indeed exist. Dawkins actually talks about this point in TGD. It is near the beginning of the book when he talks of the God Hypothesis. The universe would be an observably different place if a god/creator did exist. It is in the first or second chapter, see for yourselves.

It is only impossible to prove something doesn't exist. That is why the onus is on the believers to present their proof. In all cases that proof is wanting and without evidence and that is why I am an atheist.

-Cheers

17. Comment #3731 by William on October 31, 2006 at 10:00 am

Quite correct David. Could Anonymous be Asana, hiding from us? Or maybe it was a quick reply by Jamie, who just omitted accidentally the same name?

What Theists don't realise half the time, is that many of us Atheists DID once believe. Reading the Bible made us non-believers! It is ridiculous. Couldn't God have made it a LITTLE easier for us? Then, bring in scientific discovery, logic and straight-forward rational thinking and we can start to see the problems that all regligions have. They are all fantasy. To be honest, I am offended by blind faith. Every Theist who comes in here spouting off the name of the Lord, CONVENIENTLY forgets that the same said Lord CANNOT BE BOTHERED to stop the dying or the poverty of the 3rd world. Yet Theists' espouse A LOVING GOD who DEMANDS worship. I'd NEVER worship such a being - and the ultimate question WHO MADE GOD cannot be addressed by any one of them. At the same time, overfed, rich superstars at sporting matches shout "Thanks to God" for the latest victory. You never hear them shout "Hell! Jesus made me lose this game!"

I am really hoping Asana has the GUTS to reply to my earlier posting. I am hoping that Asana will start quoting the Bible at us.

I will quite gladly rip it apart. The Bible is FAIRY TALE. It has no more validity than the Mr.Men, Spot The Dog or the Ladybird book of Witchcraft. Infact, the Mr.Men have more credence, because we can watch them on the TV.

The Bible is a FAIRY TALE for ignorant farm herders, from the 1st Century, trying to put together a world view. It explains NOTHING and teaches NOTHING of virtue.

I am REALLY hoping Asana will try and debate this with us - in English and not riddles. Or maybe Asana is praying now? What a waste of time.

Kind Regards, William.

18. Comment #3733 by David S on October 31, 2006 at 10:22 am

For those who might be amused by a story from my youth in rural Alabama, USA. Something in William's post triggered the memory.

During the summer in Alabama afternoon thunderstorms are quite the norm. They are amazing sites with wind, rain lightning and thunder, real wrath of "God" type stuff. One summer, years ago, a storm rolled thru and lightning struck a local Baptist church. The church then burnt to the ground (in the rain). The holy man of the church was on the news and he said, "Thank God this didn't happen on Sunday. The Lord truly protected us." No one was hurt and of course that is what the minister meant, but all I could do was laugh. "God" both struck down their church and saved them from injury. Does that strike anyone else as a little odd?

19. Comment #3736 by William on October 31, 2006 at 10:51 am

Hi David!

How amusing! I'm glad nobody got hurt though. I'd not advocate the deaths of Theists, because they believe - something that is contrary to some Theist doctrines. The Old Testament made it quite clear that believers or followers of other faiths DESERVE to die.

I didn't realise you were an American! To be American and questioning faith holds you in more esteem to me - I KNOW that right now, being Atheist is FAR WORSE than being Gay, over in the States.

Infact, I love American movies. You guys make some great stuff. I have noticed though, of late, that a lot of films made in this decade have a LOT of faith-beliefs instilled into them. Religion is not going to die without a fight, nor would we expect any less.

I saw 3 films this week.
I Robot - in that film, Jesus was mentioned as was Miracles. Neither Jesus nor miracles have any evidence in reality.
I saw the remake of The Longest Yard - and there were images of Bibles after Caretaker was killed - including images of the Cross. Powerful stuff. It does move you to tears, even if you have no faith, such as I don't.
I saw the remake of the Flight of The Phoenix - and at the start they asked the crew "If you believe in God, now is the time to ask a favour".
Of course, that film has a happy ending - so God saved the day, afterall!

Still. I repeat that NO RELIGION can prove any of their lavish claims. Yet we're expected to believe just because? I can't live like that. I firmly believe that science points to a different history of events than those of the Bible or the Qur'an.

Kind Regards, William.

20. Comment #3743 by David S on October 31, 2006 at 11:46 am

Heaven forbid someone got the idea I would laugh at or desire the harm of others. For that kind of villainy it takes an absolutist dogma, which I do not have.

Thanks William for the kind words. It was decidedly hard to survive the south with my mind intact. After more than 20 years of trying to explain to my family that I am an atheist they still will not believe me. Out of deference to my mother, I am still not allowed to tell certain relatives that I am without faith.

We Americans have made some good things and some very bad ones, our president springs to mind.

Religion has a way of sneaking into everything we do. Some movies are more blatant about it than others but what is of more concern to me is when it sneaks into the news or political debate. In America the phrase for the news is, “If it bleeds, it leads.” A sad state of affairs that places on the TV every sad story of human misery that unfolds.

A family killed in a car crash, put on the remaining relative who bravely states that the loved ones are with god now.

A robbery, an attempted rape, a near fatal plane crash, put the survivors on TV to state that god was looking out for them.

This isn’t news it’s platitudes and we hear this every single day in almost every single new cast, whether local or national. I can’t stand it. Get a grip people.

Oh, and if it isn’t about some tragedy, it is some sports star whose team apparently prayed harder than the other team. I know why god has no time to stop hunger and poverty. God is far too busy making sure the athletes don’t trip over their self named shoes. Guess it is time for the poor to take responsibility for the position, in which god placed them and take care of themselves. Right? God helps those who helps themselves- then takes the credit for their actions.

21. Comment #3744 by Martin on October 31, 2006 at 11:54 am

"I Robot - in that film, Jesus was mentioned as was Miracles. Neither Jesus nor miracles have any evidence in reality."

Hmm... I don't remeber that bit in I Robot. I suppose I'll have to go watch it again.

The real I Robot is a collection of short stories by Issac Asimov, who I believe was an atheist (could be wrong though). While I Robot the film was a complete mishmash of short stories, I noticed elements from about 3 or 4 stories, I'd like to think that Isaac Asmiov would not have been too upset with it, it captured the gist of his stories, if not the content.

I suspect any overt references to religion might have upset Asimov.

One short story in teh collection, I forget its name, has a robot coming to believe in god. He (it?) refuses to accept that the humans created him, how could they, they are inferior. Earth is just a myth (the story is set on a small space station) to keep the inferior humans happy and productive... and "leaving for earth" is just another term for dying. It really is quite a funny story. I think it highlights very nicely how a limited world view (i.e. just a small space station) can greatly influnence what you believe.

22. Comment #3745 by Martin on October 31, 2006 at 12:00 pm

Not to offend David S. and other americans here (or should that be USians?) a common stereotype of americans are people that know nothing about any part of the world outside of their own state/country.

While I've been fortunate to have met quite a lot of cosmpolitan and educated americans a lot of what I see in the news/radio/internet sort of implies that the stereotype isn't that unrealist for the bible belt areas. Not having been there I have no way to really confirm the stereotype one way or another.

I have to wonder though.. if the stereotype is true, could the reason for the ludicrous fundamentalist bliefs be simply that the world view down there is as restricted as that of the robot in my previous post? People just don't know better, so the junk they are fed is that much more believable.

23. Comment #3746 by Anonymous on October 31, 2006 at 12:09 pm

"It is very important to understand that you can actually prove the existence of something if it does indeed exist."

If you haven't proved the existence of something does that mean it doesn't exist.

Did the atom exist before it was proved to exist?

As I said before The Answer is always existing before the question. yet, no one responded to that part of my post.

Here is a perfect example: I know of something that exists that is in my possession which you can not prove it exists because you don't know that it exists.

24. Comment #3757 by David S on October 31, 2006 at 12:40 pm

Asana, no one had anything to add to your comment because it was gibberish. It was a non-starter.

My statement stands and is still correct. If something exists then it CAN be proven, even if it has not yet been proven.

The answer did not exist before there was the question because by definition an answer is in response to a question. Your comments here are just more gibberish. They mean nothing.

>>Here is a perfect example: I know of something that exists that is in my possession which you can not prove it exists because you don't know that it exists.<<

I would presume that you could prove the existence of this hypothetical object even if I could not (from your previous posts perhaps this is too much to presume). I would also suppose that your object is a hypothetical answer waiting for me to question, but I will not because I do not care. So is it still an answer if there is no question?

Asana, I don't wish to be mean but you are not making it easy.

Martin, I was not offended. It is the truth. Many Americans are proud of their ignorance. In the last presidential election people actually complained that John Kerry was too smart. Too smart? In the south I was know as a “reader”. I never fit in there; that is why I am no longer there. I have always considered myself as a citizen of the world who happens to live in the US.

25. Comment #3759 by David S on October 31, 2006 at 12:43 pm

Sorry, I forgot to add that Asimov was indeed an atheist.

26. Comment #3765 by Jonathan Dore on October 31, 2006 at 1:34 pm

"Oh, and if it isn’t about some tragedy, it is some sports star whose team apparently prayed harder than the other team. I know why god has no time to stop hunger and poverty. God is far too busy making sure the athletes don’t trip over their self named shoes."

Thanks, David S, for encapsulating the baroque silliness of trivial prayers; a burst of laughter on a grey day.

27. Comment #3777 by David S on October 31, 2006 at 2:32 pm

How about...

The fact that you promote the existance of religion promotes athiests. QED

WilliamToo- a swing and a miss, perhaps you should pray a little bit more. I am glad you can find it so comfortable sitting on a fence. I can not, I have seen far too much. Also, I did point out that American media likes the extreme.

Jonathan Dore- I am very glad for your laughter, hang on to it as long as you can.

"The idea of god implies the abdication of human reason and justice; it is the most decisive negation of human liberty and necessarily ends in the enslavement of mankind both in theory and practice. He who desires to worship god must harbor no childish illusions about the matter but bravely renounce his liberty and humanity." - Mikhail Bakunin

28. Comment #3787 by David S on October 31, 2006 at 3:34 pm

WilliamToo, perhaps you could explain the subtle difference between a-theist and a-religious. Are you saying you believe in god but not religion? I think it would be easy to prove religion exists.

If you think atheism is a religion then you either misunderstand what religion is or what atheism is.

Science and evolution are not angles. They are facts.

From what I've seen you are not interested in engaging in any sort of real debate. You have been snide and sarcastic and it is not appreciated.

29. Comment #3794 by Russ on October 31, 2006 at 4:52 pm

None of us is obligated to accept as true any contention that is devoid of evidential support. If we are approached by someone with a novel idea which has no evidence to induce us to accept it, we can simply reject it out of hand. Intelligent design is one such idea. We can all simply reject it, since it has no evidence whatsoever supporting it. Someone trying to convince others of the truth of a proposition, must provide the proof. Their are countless ideas - peruse the science fiction and fantasy sections at the bookstore for a large sample - that could be contrived for which no evidence could exist, but we can simply dismiss them without wasting our valuable time trying to prove or disprove them.

The god hypothesis is just one more fantasy that can be dismissed.

30. Comment #3801 by Anonymous on October 31, 2006 at 6:35 pm

Jason,

ou totally misunderstood what I said This is what I said 'If you haven't proved the existence of something does that mean it doesn't exist'


Jason you wrote:
"Yet if something DOES exist you CAN prove it does exist"

The fact is, that is not true you cannot prove something does exist simply because it exists there are several things that exist that we have no idea of its existence hence we cannot "prove" what we have no way of knowing.

I have certainly shown you a flaw in tour thinking about this subject will you then admit this?

Also talking about orbiting tea pots or Spaghetti monsters are intellectually deceitful arguments. Also, there is no historical reason to believe in these things. God on the other hand has a real history with real people, plus the most convincing evidence of all is that three Major religions who are not in collusion agree that they Worship the same God.

The Jewish people celebrate the Passover in rememberence of what God did for them. Do you think they all got together and said let's make a bogus holy day.

Richard Dawkins is going to renounce atheism in 2007, so tell me what will you say when this happens?

31. Comment #3806 by William on October 31, 2006 at 7:10 pm

Asana said:

>>GENETIC MATHEMATICS human 100 %
chimpanzee 86.7 %
nematode 75 % <<

And THIS rubbish is your 'evidence' for God's existence?! Are you SERIOUS?! Do you have the SLIGHTEST CLUE as to why those (incorrect) formulae are evidence of NOTHING?

The point is, the Chimpanzee is a CLOSE relative to the Human species. The difference in genomes is because WE ARE DIFFERENT SPECIES, WITH A SHARED HISTORY FROM EVOLUTION! We are not FROM Monkeys - we evolved ALONGSIDE THEM from a common ancestor. An ancestor that may well have lived in the Dinosaur era, amongst common theories of discovery. Do you have ANY idea as to how many varied species of Monkey/ Ape/ Chimpanzee/ Human and/ or proto-Humans have been discovered, thus far? There are hundreds of differing species! Go and search wikipedia for the many varieties of species of Hominids.

Oh my grief! You really have a lack of understanding as to what drives evolutionary process. When I asked for evidence, I expected something better than that lunacy.

I suggest you go and find some proper evolutionary theory before posting on here again. I've never heard such a ridiculous speculative argument.

Give us Atheists (and you have increased my atheism thus far), some credible evidence. A photograph of God. A voice recording of God - telling us why we are wrong. A date from God of the return of Jesus Christ. A piece of evidence from the universe that has a real supernatural explanation - instead of the natural, observable phenomena we detect.

Do you actually understand what an Atheist means by evidence? Why are you in here? Have you read any of Professor Dawkins books? I'm in the middle of 3 of them at present. EVERY book he has written makes more sense than any Bible rubbish I've ever read - or that pathetic attempt by yourself to convince us Atheists we are faulty in our thinking.

Kind Regards, William.

32. Comment #3824 by Anonymous on October 31, 2006 at 9:44 pm

"An atheist philosophy against another's, just one that does not need me to take a leap of faith, nor makes me cling on to "I wish it were true"

The Atheist belief is a leap of faith as well.

33. Comment #3832 by Martin on November 1, 2006 at 12:11 am

@Joe

Hi Joe,

I'd just like to say that you must be first rational theist on these boards. Views like yours are ones I can respect, even if I don't agree with them.

I have a couple of questions though, which I wonder if you could answer.

1) Do you actually believe in a "personal" god, or is your god more like that ascribed to Einstein, a sort of wonder at the universe and awe at nature etc. Or do you believe that God is out there and will listen to your prayers? From what you've posted I'd say it seems more like "Einsteins" God. You could argue then that your are spiritual, but not religious.

2) Do you believe faith should be given the reverent and unchallenged status it does in our society; providing shelter for the extremists and fundamentalists who, unlike the reasonable believers, interpret the scriptures literally and passionatly blow themselves up for a short-cut to heaven?

34. Comment #3842 by Anonymous on November 1, 2006 at 2:38 am

Einsteins God is God!

35. Comment #3857 by J.C. Samuelson on November 1, 2006 at 6:08 am

WilliamToo,

"The fact that you promote yourself as atheist promotes the existence of religion."

As others have mentioned, a religion is usually marked by the adherence to faith or dogma as the confirmation and expression of communal beliefs. Although I assume you're smart enough to know this, according to the Merriam-Webster definition (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/religion/), religion is defined as:

b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

The last definition is that which most closely approaches a description of atheism, though faith is not a part of it. That is, evidence plays a significant role.

In any event, labeling oneself as an atheist is not necessary to confirm the existence of religion, as such. Religion does exist. Perhaps you meant something else?

Atheism is, by definition, not a religion.

36. Comment #3858 by J.C. Samuelson on November 1, 2006 at 6:16 am

Why must theists continually use the argumentum ad populum as an apologetics tactic? Surely there are theists somewhere who are wiser than this.

37. Comment #3860 by Anonymous on November 1, 2006 at 6:25 am

The existence of religion does not prove the existance of any god

38. Comment #3872 by William on November 1, 2006 at 8:34 am

Hello Brian.

I did look it up!!! UNREAL!

Could this be Relgion by natural seclection?!

Kind Regards, William.

39. Comment #3885 by Anonymous on November 1, 2006 at 9:44 am

To Brian, William, and all the other intelligent people here who conitinue to try and argue with these faithhead wingnuts, I salute your incredible reserves of patience and mental stamina. I don't know how you do it.

For me, I really wish there was a God, and he would get his "rapturous" ass in gear and get down here and whisk these religious dolts the fuck out of here, to a place where they can float around with their little angel wings, in sublime peace and numbing, mindless existence for all eternity.

Then maybe the rest of us could live in peace and reason, and never have to look at another stupid "PRAISE THE LORD" bumper sticker, or hear another pathetic attempt at challenging the validity of evolution by an individual who has not even the most basic understanding of it's details.

40. Comment #3890 by Anonymous on November 1, 2006 at 10:06 am

To all: I have no proof of the existence of God. I guess I am feebly restating the non-overlapping magisteria approach of Gould (and yes, I am very aware of Dawkins criticisms of this idea, but do not agree with them).

"I trust you will never fall victim to a degenerative brain condition such as Alzheimers, which, by intefering with those brain chemicals you so cavalierly dismiss, would destroy your love for your wife and children."
I hope not too; could you pray for me ;). Sorry, I couldn't resist. I don't thnk my love would be destroyed, just the biological manifestation. I have no proof of this and if others consider it a delusion I am not offended.

Sweetsunray:
You make some excellent points, and are obviously a very thoughtful person. I am not sure I can answer your questions. I am not using my subjective experiences as proof of God's existence, but rather using them as a poor substitute to describe my belief. I suppose it is like trying to desribe the sensation of pain. It hurts, and we all know what it is, but how does one actually describe the sensation?

Martin:
I do believe in a personal God, and have no answer as to why intercessory prayer doesn't work or why God allows evil (both human and natural) to invade the world. Dawkins has great arguments in that respect; I have little. I suppose I reject Dawkins testable God hypothesis; faith is called that because it is just that: faith. I do not think that faith or any other human endeavor should be accorded special status. I disagree that religion is given a free pass, why else would Dawkin's book be #3 on Amazon (or a believer like me eagerly obtain and read it)?

The "airplanes into buildings" argument is a compelling one against religious fanaticism. But consider this: should we end the study of physics, since its principles have been used to create atomic weapons and technology that led to global warming? Should I give up on Democracy, even though I know that, as it is practiced in the US, it is almost a farce?

One last note: I think that atheists, brights, etc. and those who believe in God can co-exist, and challenging each other's beliefs is good. As a believer, I can say that Dawkin's tone and condescension sometimes can sometimes overshadow his interesting and challenging ideas. As an academic myself, I understand the temptation to scream in frustration at the "idiots" who don't understand or refuse to embrace my brilliant ideas; I have been guilty of it myself. I don't see why one side needs to triumph; I don't think atheists are bad people and I know not all believers are good people. It is the twisting of any idea to serve evil that is the problem.

41. Comment #3895 by Alan on November 1, 2006 at 10:27 am

"Atheism has robbed you blind of your senses. You look into the eyes of your loved ones and you see little random made apelike beings that are going to die and rot in the ground and be gone forever.

I look at my loved ones and see a purposely created beautiful being who will die and rot in the ground and then be brought back to life forever"

Not only is this comment incredibly ignorant and pathetically delusional, it also trivializes the life we have, denuding it of the immediacy and vitality that consciousness and physical experience offers.

Not to mention, it exhibits a level of arrogance that's only possible through the lips of a brainwashed religious fool.

42. Comment #3900 by Alan on November 1, 2006 at 10:42 am

Bodhitharta: No, Life should be cherished in this life and prepared for the next. It is only arrogant that you are so unthankful for the time you have here on earth. mankind is ever ungrateful. It shouldn't matter to you what I say anyway because you are going to die without hope and you are going to live with believing you were a random accident that sprouted from the mutual ancestry of baboons and gorillas.

I am quite proud and emotionally uplifted and invigorated by the fact that I share an evolutionary heritage with ALL other creatures, indeed all nature, both extant and extinct, that have ever graced the planet Earth. This view of the "grandeur of life", and my humble place in it, is far more satisfying than any of your pathetic little religious fables.

What I'm not so proud of is that I share that same heritage with the likes of you.

43. Comment #3901 by Anonymous on November 1, 2006 at 11:02 am

Asana
"Bodhitharta: It is written in the bible and the Quaran that the world is a globe."
It most certanally does not say that. perhaps you could give us a verse from the bible? The early church certainly said the bible states the earth to be flat.
Atheism has robbed us of nothing. Religion however has robbed many of a future. There is no freedom in religious obeyance.
As for the highest number, take the biggest number you can think of and add 1.

44. Comment #3902 by Anonymous on November 1, 2006 at 11:05 am

asana, two words; waco tosspot!

45. Comment #3914 by Russ on November 1, 2006 at 12:42 pm

In post 53. Comment #3802 by Asana Bodhitharta, after his inane genomic comparisons, he says,

"80% of the proteins in the human
and chimpanzee genomes are different.
This comparison is very significant because proteins are ultimately responsible for an organism’s anatomical, physiological, and behavioral characteristics."

This statement demonstrates that his thinking skills are clearly flawed, and from his other posts this is most likely due to the adverse effects of religion. Think this through a bit. He states unequivocally that proteins, not some god thing, causes an organism's behavioraly characteristics. While elsewhere he contends that his version of a god is the organismal puppet master.

When someone exhibits such flawed thinking - the required tool of human communication - they are, at least for the moment, mentally impaired, pure and simple. Just as we are not obligated to enter institutions for the mentally handicapped and attempt to communicate to residents factual information about he natural world, neither are we at all required to attempt to explain natural phenomena to one who has abandoned reason by using supernatural explanations as evidence.

If his explanations work, he should be able to demonstrate so. Absent such proof, we can simply dismiss him. That is, not waste our valuable time addressing his nonsense.

46. Comment #3931 by Alan on November 1, 2006 at 2:24 pm

Are you guys ready to give up on this, for lack of a better word, clown?

Absolutely hopeless.

47. Comment #3932 by Alan on November 1, 2006 at 2:25 pm

I'd like to add, it's easy to see why George Bush is the Christian Fundamentists poster boy.

48. Comment #3936 by Jason on November 1, 2006 at 3:21 pm

Clowns don't brainwash people and spread evil, this Asana creature is doing exactly that, I pity the people in her life.

So long Asana.

49. Comment #3937 by Jonathan Dore on November 1, 2006 at 3:26 pm

Readers might be amused at the following exchange involving our friend here (a faith-head going head-to-head with an airhead):

premium.faithsite.com/showmsg.asp?fid=4&tid=223539&sid=&style=2
(not a link - just copy and paste into address bar).


And also by Asana's self-description at booktalk.org:
" Asana Bodhitharta
40 years of age
Born and raised in USA
Believer in The One God
Believer in The One Religion
Teacher of Progressive Revelation
Witness of the Most High God.
I have taught atheist to understand and believe in God."

Just the one then?

50. Comment #3951 by David S on November 1, 2006 at 4:50 pm

I sit in awe. LukeG- Things must be seen as false until proven true.

I have for 2 days been thinking about how to address Asana. You have done it for me and I say enough said.

Cheers-
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