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Indian village proud after double 'honor killing'
by Reuters
Thanks to Jeff Thompson for the link.
Indian village proud after double "honor killing"
By Simon Denyer
BALLA, India (Reuters) - Five armed men burst into the small room and courtyard at dawn, just as 21-year-old, 22-week pregnant, Sunita was drying her face on a towel.
They punched and kicked her stomach as she called out for her sleeping boyfriend "Jassa", 22-year-old Jasbir Singh, witnesses said. When he woke, both were dragged into waiting cars, driven away and strangled.
Their bodies, half-stripped, were laid out on the dirt outside Sunita's father's house for all to see, a sign that the family's "honor" had been restored by her cold-blooded murder.
A week later, the village of Balla, just a couple of hours drive from India's capital New Delhi, stands united behind the act, proud, defiant almost to a man.
Among the Jat caste of the conservative northern state of Haryana, it is taboo for a man and woman of the same village to marry. Although the couple were not related, they were seen in this deeply traditional society as brother and sister.
"From society's point of view, this is a very good thing," said 62-year-old farmer Balwan Arya, sitting smoking a hookah in the shade of a tree in a square with other elders from the village council or panchayat. "We have removed the blot."
Growing economic opportunities for young people and lower castes in Haryana have made "love marriages" more common, experts say, and the violent repression of them has risen in tandem as upper caste Jat men fight to hold on to power, status and property.
Sunita's father Om Prakash has confessed to murdering his pregnant daughter and her boyfriend, police told Reuters. An uncle and two cousins were among four others arrested.
But in Balla many people believe the father confessed merely to underline that he supported his daughter's killing, to satisfy honor and protect the real culprits among his family or village.
At their house, Sunita's mother did not emerge to talk. Instead, a young man on a motorbike tried to intimidate the Reuters team into leaving. It turned out he was another of Sunita's cousins, his father and brother held by police.
"We are not ashamed of it, absolutely not, we have the honor of doing the village proud," he said.
"We would not have had a face to show if we had not done this. It was the act of 'real men'."
THE POWER OF UPPER CASTE MEN
The relatively prosperous northern state of Haryana is one of India's most conservative when it comes to caste, marriage and the role of women. Deeply patriarchal, caste purity is paramount and marriages are arranged to sustain the status quo.
Men and women are still murdered across the villages of northern India for daring to marry outside their caste, but in Haryana the practice is widespread, and widely supported.
Here, women veil their faces with scarves in public. The illegal abortion of female fetuses is common, the ratio of women to men in Haryana just 861 to 1,000, the lowest in the country.
Anyone who transgresses social codes, by marrying across caste boundaries or within the same village, is liable to meet the same fate as Sunita and Jasbir.
Many such murders are never reported, hardly any result in prosecution, says Professor Javeed Alam, chairman of the Indian Council of Social Science Research.
"People from the same village are treated as siblings in Haryana," he said. "So this is treated as incest."
Without any law to prohibit this kind of marriage, "the only way you can punish it is by taking the law into your own hands. People believe people who commit incest should be killed".
Nor do politicians ever renounce the practice, Alam added, because if they did, "they would not win elections".
And the legalization of property rights for women in 1956 made love marriages within a village even more dangerous for this elite, as daughters living close to home could in theory claim a part of the family land, sociologist Prem Chowdhry says.
CHILDHOOD SWEETHEARTS
Sunita and Jasbir, sweethearts in the same class at school, had little chance. When he left school a couple of years before her to become an photographer's apprentice, he would often hang around at the school gates to collect her.
She was married off to another man, but left her husband to elope with Jasbir a year-and-a-half ago, and while the families tried to keep them apart, they realized it was a losing battle.
"They were madly in love even to the last day," said Jasbir's 16-year-old sister-in-law Lalita in the house where they lived in Machhroli village, around 35 km (20 miles) by road from Balla.
To make matters worse, Jasbir was from a lower sub-caste, and she was pregnant outside marriage. Sunita's parents in Balla found themselves virtually ostracized.
"Nobody would drink water in our house," Sunita's mother Roshni is reported to have said. "My daughter's action made us aliens in our own land. But we have managed to redeem our honor. She paid for her ill-gotten action."
But among Jasbir's family, split between Machhroli and Balla, grief is mixed with fear.
"Why are you talking to the media?" shouted a female family member at one point. "This will only bring more trouble."
At the small police post in Balla, a constable admitted the case was unlikely to ever reach prosecution, with the village putting enormous pressure on the police, and especially Jasbir's family, to quietly drop the case.
"We are being pressurized into reaching an agreement, a compromise, without even being given time to grieve," said Jasbir's 25-year-old sister Neelam. "We have been told that if we don't compromise, we will suffer the same fate."
In the narrow alleyway outside their tiny house, women wailed in grief. A few hundred yards away, the panchayat sat in quiet self-satisfaction.
"The people who have done this should get an award for it," said 48-year-old Satvir Singh. "This was a murder of morality."
(Editing by Alistair Scrutton)
Indian village proud after double "honor killing"
By Simon Denyer
BALLA, India (Reuters) - Five armed men burst into the small room and courtyard at dawn, just as 21-year-old, 22-week pregnant, Sunita was drying her face on a towel.
They punched and kicked her stomach as she called out for her sleeping boyfriend "Jassa", 22-year-old Jasbir Singh, witnesses said. When he woke, both were dragged into waiting cars, driven away and strangled.
Their bodies, half-stripped, were laid out on the dirt outside Sunita's father's house for all to see, a sign that the family's "honor" had been restored by her cold-blooded murder.
A week later, the village of Balla, just a couple of hours drive from India's capital New Delhi, stands united behind the act, proud, defiant almost to a man.
Among the Jat caste of the conservative northern state of Haryana, it is taboo for a man and woman of the same village to marry. Although the couple were not related, they were seen in this deeply traditional society as brother and sister.
"From society's point of view, this is a very good thing," said 62-year-old farmer Balwan Arya, sitting smoking a hookah in the shade of a tree in a square with other elders from the village council or panchayat. "We have removed the blot."
Growing economic opportunities for young people and lower castes in Haryana have made "love marriages" more common, experts say, and the violent repression of them has risen in tandem as upper caste Jat men fight to hold on to power, status and property.
Sunita's father Om Prakash has confessed to murdering his pregnant daughter and her boyfriend, police told Reuters. An uncle and two cousins were among four others arrested.
But in Balla many people believe the father confessed merely to underline that he supported his daughter's killing, to satisfy honor and protect the real culprits among his family or village.
At their house, Sunita's mother did not emerge to talk. Instead, a young man on a motorbike tried to intimidate the Reuters team into leaving. It turned out he was another of Sunita's cousins, his father and brother held by police.
"We are not ashamed of it, absolutely not, we have the honor of doing the village proud," he said.
"We would not have had a face to show if we had not done this. It was the act of 'real men'."
THE POWER OF UPPER CASTE MEN
The relatively prosperous northern state of Haryana is one of India's most conservative when it comes to caste, marriage and the role of women. Deeply patriarchal, caste purity is paramount and marriages are arranged to sustain the status quo.
Men and women are still murdered across the villages of northern India for daring to marry outside their caste, but in Haryana the practice is widespread, and widely supported.
Here, women veil their faces with scarves in public. The illegal abortion of female fetuses is common, the ratio of women to men in Haryana just 861 to 1,000, the lowest in the country.
Anyone who transgresses social codes, by marrying across caste boundaries or within the same village, is liable to meet the same fate as Sunita and Jasbir.
Many such murders are never reported, hardly any result in prosecution, says Professor Javeed Alam, chairman of the Indian Council of Social Science Research.
"People from the same village are treated as siblings in Haryana," he said. "So this is treated as incest."
Without any law to prohibit this kind of marriage, "the only way you can punish it is by taking the law into your own hands. People believe people who commit incest should be killed".
Nor do politicians ever renounce the practice, Alam added, because if they did, "they would not win elections".
And the legalization of property rights for women in 1956 made love marriages within a village even more dangerous for this elite, as daughters living close to home could in theory claim a part of the family land, sociologist Prem Chowdhry says.
CHILDHOOD SWEETHEARTS
Sunita and Jasbir, sweethearts in the same class at school, had little chance. When he left school a couple of years before her to become an photographer's apprentice, he would often hang around at the school gates to collect her.
She was married off to another man, but left her husband to elope with Jasbir a year-and-a-half ago, and while the families tried to keep them apart, they realized it was a losing battle.
"They were madly in love even to the last day," said Jasbir's 16-year-old sister-in-law Lalita in the house where they lived in Machhroli village, around 35 km (20 miles) by road from Balla.
To make matters worse, Jasbir was from a lower sub-caste, and she was pregnant outside marriage. Sunita's parents in Balla found themselves virtually ostracized.
"Nobody would drink water in our house," Sunita's mother Roshni is reported to have said. "My daughter's action made us aliens in our own land. But we have managed to redeem our honor. She paid for her ill-gotten action."
But among Jasbir's family, split between Machhroli and Balla, grief is mixed with fear.
"Why are you talking to the media?" shouted a female family member at one point. "This will only bring more trouble."
At the small police post in Balla, a constable admitted the case was unlikely to ever reach prosecution, with the village putting enormous pressure on the police, and especially Jasbir's family, to quietly drop the case.
"We are being pressurized into reaching an agreement, a compromise, without even being given time to grieve," said Jasbir's 25-year-old sister Neelam. "We have been told that if we don't compromise, we will suffer the same fate."
In the narrow alleyway outside their tiny house, women wailed in grief. A few hundred yards away, the panchayat sat in quiet self-satisfaction.
"The people who have done this should get an award for it," said 48-year-old Satvir Singh. "This was a murder of morality."
(Editing by Alistair Scrutton)
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Posted: Friday, May 16, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 62 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #181138 by Quetzalcoatl on May 16, 2008 at 1:16 pm
Ah, the caste system. One of the wonderful things about Indian culture. Self-righteous fucktards. Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
3. Comment #181139 by RamziD on May 16, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Another disgusting act. This is becoming too common.Just curious, but I wonder why the journalists did not mention which religion these people belong to? They have no problem identifying the religion when it is Islam, and just looking at the names and the discussion about the caste system, it doesn't seem like this is a muslim village. Seems a little like a double standard to me.
Other Comments by RamziD
4. Comment #181141 by Caudimordax on May 16, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Wow! Sometimes they kill you for marrying outside your village, then sometimes they kill you for marrying inside your village! And here they're killing the man, too. Does that make them more egalitarian?
EDIT
Not explicitly religious beliefs this time, but still crazy "beliefs."
Other Comments by Caudimordax
5. Comment #181142 by EvidenceOnly on May 16, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Is there any believer out there who, after reading this, can explain to me why religion is a virtue and deserves even the tiniest bit of respect?Other Comments by EvidenceOnly
6. Comment #181144 by Andrew Stich on May 16, 2008 at 1:19 pm
It goes to show how terribly one's interpretation of morality depends on society. I'm sure that not a single person on this site would condone what happened. It's truly shocking, reflecting on how one can actually hold this murder as extremely moral.Other Comments by Andrew Stich
7. Comment #181146 by Cartomancer on May 16, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Another shocking tale of outdated patriarchal morality. As I read this I started to think "well there's been no mention of islam, and it's India so they're probably some sort of hindus, so clearly you do get this kind of vile crime against humanity without explicit religious sanction for it". Unless there's a kind of hinduism which prescribes such things. There probably is - there's a kind of hinduism that prescribes pretty much anything you like, and if there isn't you can just make up your own and nobody will bat an eyelid.But to start off on the "is it religion to blame or is it really the underlying cultures that may or may not happen to be overtly religious" road would be missing the point. Clearly the enemy here is deeply ingrained cultural irrationality, plain and simple. Religion is one subset of the phenomenon, this kind of conservative, patriarchal Indian rural culture is another.
Unfortunately, both involve the perpetuation of traditional power structures and modes of oppression - something the powerful and the oppressors will fight tooth and nail to hold on to.
The only ultimate solution I can see to this problem is education in secular, liberal, humanistic values of tolerance, equality, mutual respect and the judging of propositions on evidence rather than the authority of tradition. And increased wealth, access to opportunities and the other core material foundations of a modern society. This is happening, slowly, but it could surely be happening an awful lot more.
Other Comments by Cartomancer
8. Comment #181148 by al-rawandi on May 16, 2008 at 1:21 pm
And they aren't even Muslims.
How will Fanusi figure this one out?
Other Comments by al-rawandi
9. Comment #181150 by Chris_The_Positivist on May 16, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Unbelieveable, another example of the perniciousness of religion. As if there is any justification!!More often than not those that are vulnerable become victims of such irrational systems. I think it's time women were emancipated from these unjust shackles of oppression. Enough of these cowardly, evil men imposing their will over the innocent.
Other Comments by Chris_The_Positivist
10. Comment #181151 by the great teapot on May 16, 2008 at 1:30 pm
When you consider mankind is a few hundred thousands years old, how far behind our own society is this, a few decades(kkk) may be a couple of centuries ( witch hunts) tops, thats a fraction of our existence as a species let alone a life form. No excuse I know, but we really don't know how good we've got it (in the UK at least) rightnow.Other Comments by the great teapot
11. Comment #181152 by Rickshaw on May 16, 2008 at 1:30 pm
said 48-year-old Satvir Singh. "This was a murder of morality."
This behaviour certainly kills of any claims they may have to morality
Other Comments by Rickshaw
12. Comment #181156 by Chris_The_Positivist on May 16, 2008 at 1:37 pm
This is exactly why this is a war worth fighting. The war against irrational belief and the attrocities done in the name of such irrationality.We will stand for this no longer. We owe it to our 21st century sense of morality, morality far in advance of anything preached by these murderers!
Other Comments by Chris_The_Positivist
13. Comment #181164 by RamziD on May 16, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Another shocking tale of outdated patriarchal morality. As I read this I started to think "well there's been no mention of islam, and it's India so they're probably some sort of hindus, so clearly you do get this kind of vile crime against humanity without explicit religious sanction for it". Unless there's a kind of hinduism which prescribes such things. There probably is - there's a kind of hinduism that prescribes pretty much anything you like, and if there isn't you can just make up your own and nobody will bat an eyelid.
Just a quick Google search of "caste systems" shows that the idea is rooted in hindu scripture.
Other Comments by RamziD
14. Comment #181172 by zosky on May 16, 2008 at 2:23 pm
my apologies to all the non-chauvunistic males here but stories like these make me passionately dislike men. I grew up in a patriarchial society and have been a direct witness to events like this. Absolutely disgusting! Words are not adequate to express my disgust of such a behavior and such a mindset.Other Comments by zosky
15. Comment #181178 by mordacious1 on May 16, 2008 at 2:45 pm
They "stand defiant behind the act, proud, defiant, almost to a man". "...we have the honor of doing the village proud." Bite me.Other Comments by mordacious1
16. Comment #181183 by Jimbesity on May 16, 2008 at 3:00 pm
I'm supposed to respect this? Other Comments by Jimbesity
17. Comment #181185 by History_Junky on May 16, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Ive never understood that bloody caste system. Its the 21s century and they are still adhering to beliefs that are millenia old. The problem with hinduism is that rather then dieing out along time ago, they just absorbed new ideas and beliefs that came into India. This is as bad as when those students committed suicide because colleges were required to have a quota of lower caste students as issued by the government. I sure am happy that my parents made the right decision and got out of that backwards hell hole.
India may be doing well economically but unless they can educate the new generation beyond the caste system then it will be stuck in an economical rut.
Other Comments by History_Junky
18. Comment #181186 by Marc Weeks on May 16, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Doesn't the word "banishment" appear in their dictionaries?
You'll notice they were strangled, which I've always heard is the most personal way of killing someone. It isn't like the relative detachment of shooting someone. To strangle someone, you need to hate them. But if you don't hate them necessarily, then you would to need to feel that you had some sort of sanction to do what you're doing. Enter God, stage left.
Other Comments by Marc Weeks
19. Comment #181189 by mordacious1 on May 16, 2008 at 3:15 pm
History_JunkyInformative post. Aw, now you've actually put something in so my post looks stupid.
Other Comments by mordacious1
20. Comment #181192 by devolve on May 16, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Does anything similar to this occur among non-human* primates like chimps or bonobos, I wonder?(*leaving aside jokes about these villagers)
Other Comments by devolve
21. Comment #181193 by History_Junky on May 16, 2008 at 3:22 pm
@Mordacious1I was typing and didnt even realize that I hadnt selected the text box.
Other Comments by History_Junky
22. Comment #181197 by Mango on May 16, 2008 at 3:35 pm
To play Devil's avocado for a moment, perhaps these villagers are just very concerned about possible genetic mutations arising from people who procreate within the same shallow gene pool. And this is the inevitable result of possessing a profound understanding of genetics! So science is to blame! Other Comments by Mango
23. Comment #181198 by rev on May 16, 2008 at 3:36 pm
Mental, mental, fucksOther Comments by rev
24. Comment #181207 by Adam Morrison on May 16, 2008 at 3:58 pm
re: devolve
It's been a while since I brushed up on primate behaviour, but if I remember correctly the only in-group instances of similar behaviour is chimpanzee males fighting to become alpha and have breeding rights (thought I don't think its usually to the death, submission usually occurs). There have been several instances of inter-group raiding and murder however.
India's caste system is incredibly brutal, I've read about other instances, such as the Japanese Eta (burakamin), where caste/class can result in phenomenally abusive cultural engagements, but India seems to take the cake time and time again. Hopefully as India modernizes this system will quickly disolve, but I'm not betting on it.
Other Comments by Adam Morrison
25. Comment #181208 by JimmyL on May 16, 2008 at 4:04 pm
They call themselves men?I've met a flea ridden, three legged, mongrel bitch that is more manly and more honourable than these pieces of human excrement.
Disgusting.
Other Comments by JimmyL
26. Comment #181212 by Radesq on May 16, 2008 at 4:19 pm
JimmyL...If you see her again tell her to come home me an the kids miss her somethin' awful. Other Comments by Radesq
27. Comment #181219 by BCReason on May 16, 2008 at 4:39 pm
They spread it here to.In Vancouver a rich Sikh families daughter ran back to India to marry her lower caste boyfriend. The family hired hit men to kill her. The girls Canadian friends have been trying to get the father charged in Canada with setting up the murder.
Other Comments by BCReason
28. Comment #181221 by The Schuermannator on May 16, 2008 at 4:50 pm
If I had been on that Reuters news team I'd have launched a stick through that fucker on the motorbike's spokes. It would be an "honor throwing" as the motorbike is advanced, Western technology. I don't think Yamaha/Suzuki/Honda would want it any other way. =)
~Matt
Other Comments by The Schuermannator
29. Comment #181235 by Noodly on May 16, 2008 at 5:29 pm
Of course these honour killings are cultural, but when did you last hear the local religious leaders condemn these actions?
More than anything, these sad events point out that religion is a man made cultural phenomenon.
Other Comments by Noodly
30. Comment #181261 by Diocletian on May 16, 2008 at 7:33 pm
So glad British Airways is banning beef on their flights in order to respect those of the Hindu faith. Perhaps we all ought to send this article to them and ask them why we should pay them respect?Other Comments by Diocletian
31. Comment #181262 by Diocletian on May 16, 2008 at 7:39 pm
To zoskyI hate to rain on your parade of male chauvunism, but women buy into this too. The last thing we need is to start dividing religion along lines of sex and start blaming one sex being more responsible than another. Who in 'heaven's name' do you think raises these boys who become men who kill for family honour. And please don't think that the women don't want these killings to occur - after all, they have other daughters to marry off and how can they marry if shame has come to their family? It is all wrapped up in promoting our own genes. Does that justify such murders? Absolutely not - but please - let's not make this a sexist issue - let's keep the blame where it should be - RELIGION.
Other Comments by Diocletian
32. Comment #181264 by Diocletian on May 16, 2008 at 7:49 pm
It is not just that the religious leaders do not condemn the caste system and its outcomes - the caste system is part of the Hindu religion. To say it is cultural is of course true, just as it would be true to say that the long-time ban on birth control in Ireland was 'cultural'. Of course, the culture was/is the Catholic Church. The culture in India is very much dictated by Hinduism.According to Hinduism, the poor deserve to be poor and the wealthy deserve to be wealthy. How's that for culture?
And, where did Hinduism get the caste system from? Buddhism.
Other Comments by Diocletian
33. Comment #181272 by Teratornis on May 16, 2008 at 8:25 pm
This is an interesting story, but everyone is probably wondering: what does this story have to do with peak oil?Perhaps not much at the moment. But India's population has exploded over the past century, in large part due to gains in agriculture from the application of petroleum (for mechanization, fertilizers, pesticides, processing, shipment, etc.).
India has a large and rapidly growing population, a large percentage of which is very poor. Perhaps the killers of Sunita and Jasbir will not survive the post-peak oil dieback, when skyrocketing oil prices lead to skyrocketing food prices, and basically there just won't be enough oil to feed all the poor while simultaneously keeping the wealthy comfortable.
Since I don't see the wealthy choosing to sacrifice any comfort voluntarily (charity is fine so long as it isn't a sacrifice), our social Darwinist world economic system will probably sacrifice the poor first. If, as if seems virtually certain, world oil production falls faster than substitute technologies can make up the difference, these impoverished Indian villages that are stuck in such backward practices might get starved back toward their pre-industrial size.
Other Comments by Teratornis
34. Comment #181292 by moderndaythomas on May 16, 2008 at 9:04 pm
"The people who have done this should get an award for it," said 48-year-old Satvir Singh. "This was a murder of morality."
Un-fucking-believable!
Other Comments by moderndaythomas
35. Comment #181295 by fontor on May 16, 2008 at 9:13 pm
If there's one thing we learn from religion, it's that the creator of the universe has an insatiable curiosity about other people's sex lives.Hey, maybe he did create us in his own image.
Other Comments by fontor
36. Comment #181310 by Robert Maynard on May 16, 2008 at 10:12 pm
Teratornis, I loved the segue, even if I no longer fully subscribe to peak-oil dieoff scenarios. :P Other Comments by Robert Maynard
37. Comment #181318 by bucketchemist on May 16, 2008 at 10:57 pm
Several posters refer to this action as 'irrational', but I'm not sure if that is the case. Rational behaviour, surely, is that which is most appropriate to the circumstances in which it operates, and is only tangentially related to morality. In terms of pragmatic, rational, appropriate action and responses, I don't think there is much to criticise here. Having said that, and in case this sounds like an argument for moral relativism or undue intercultural tolerance, I am of course as appalled as I should be by this event. Just to return to morality briefly, there may be a case to be made that moral positions and actions are often defined by their being irrational when judged against the temper of their times. I'm thinking here about Wilberforce, Ghandi, maybe Jesus, etc. For the parents of these two poor people to act truly morally, in this aspirational sense, they would have to reject the rational responses demanded by their cultural circumstances. This would be an incredibly noble thing to do, but also a difficult one, and I don't know how far we should condemn their failure in this regard.
Other Comments by bucketchemist
38. Comment #181322 by Vergil on May 16, 2008 at 11:56 pm
bucketchemist,You make the atheist posters on this board sound like one note knee-jerk reactionary pitchfok wielding mobsters. Religious sympathizer! Let's burn him!
Other Comments by Vergil
39. Comment #181326 by MaxD on May 17, 2008 at 12:22 am
BucketChemist,
I think you are right, but I think the other posters here are using the term to describe the thinking at an earlier tier in the reasoning chain. Certainly, if I am a believing Muslim say (not the focus of this tale of woe) and I have come to faith in the Koran, and Hadith then it may indeed be rational to slaughter my children. However is the belief rational given the evidence? In the case of my example, or any other religious example of which you can think, the answer will likely be no. I of course cannot speak for everyone but if I were going to say religious practice X is totally irrational, I am really talking about their first principles.
I think you make an excellent point though.
Other Comments by MaxD
40. Comment #181331 by Raiko on May 17, 2008 at 12:45 am
bucketchemist,going against common consensus, moral or Zeitgeist is only noble when it leads to an advance. The opposite direction can hardly be called moral. Leaning up against society doesn't make your actions truly moral by default. Comparing brute murderers in our time with the Ghandi and Jesus of their times seems to me like an argument that fails the moment you give it some thought.
Other Comments by Raiko
41. Comment #181337 by bucketchemist on May 17, 2008 at 1:00 am
VergilIf I came across in the way you suggest then I unreservedly apologise for that. My comment was not intended as a criticism of other valued posters but was aimed at the use of the term 'rational' as a critique of behaviour which, in context, is not necessarily irrational at all from an adaptive, social perspective. I am saying that sometimes, to be moral one has to be irrational.
MaxD
I wasn't really referring to religious conviction as a factor in the construction of morality (positively or negatively) but I do think there is a connection, albeit a variable one. Certainly if a piece of religious dogma is inculcated into the fabric of a society then obedience to that dogma will coincide with 'rational' behaviour in that society (which may be a factor in the OP). On the other hand, religious ideas may provide some kind of justification for extremely moral actions which break the taboos of a society, which may endanger the life of the actor, and which, from an adaptive perspective, are highly irrational.
I suppose where I am going with this is that there are two understanding of 'rational' which I see as sometimes confused. Firstly there is rational in the empirical scientific sense, in which beliefs, and actions following from those beliefs must be supported by evidence (religion is bogus so religious practices are irrational). Secondly there is rational in the adaptive, social, cultural sense, in which it is understood as behaviour which ensures genetic survival (religion is what the rest of my social group practice so my practicing of it is rational). It seems to me that one of the tasks of scientific enlightenment is to bring these two understandings more into alignment.
Other Comments by bucketchemist
42. Comment #181340 by Vadjong on May 17, 2008 at 1:05 am
"We have removed the blot."And thrown away any respect or honor with it.
Other Comments by Vadjong
43. Comment #181342 by padster1976 on May 17, 2008 at 1:26 am
'violent repression... has risen in tandem as... men fight to hold on to power, status and property. '
That one sentence sums up religion completely.
Other Comments by padster1976
44. Comment #181343 by padster1976 on May 17, 2008 at 1:31 am
I note that the recent coverage of china's effort for their earthquake victims has been influenced by the west's large business interests. No-one can argue that if the earhquake hit tibet, we'd be looking at another Burma.
I wonder if western governments would comment on this awful act in india or be silenced for the same reasons.
Or would that damage 'social cohesion'?
Other Comments by padster1976
45. Comment #181367 by redkris on May 17, 2008 at 3:54 am
Contemptible.Kill your daughter and unborn grandchild and then celebrate the fact for all to see...just another day in the life of a religious wack job.
It is depressing that the authorities are either too weak to act against those responsible, or is sympathetic to such acts of barbarity.
Other Comments by redkris
46. Comment #181377 by DamnDirtyApe on May 17, 2008 at 4:25 am
Fuckers. No further comments.Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
47. Comment #181381 by bucketchemist on May 17, 2008 at 4:54 am
going against common consensus, moral or Zeitgeist is only noble when it leads to an advance. The opposite direction can hardly be called moral. Leaning up against society doesn't make your actions truly moral by default. Comparing brute murderers in our time with the Ghandi and Jesus of their times seems to me like an argument that fails the moment you give it some thought.
I don't think I was comparing anyone to Jesus or Ghandi, and certainly not murderers. What I was trying to say is that, historically, what is clearly both moral and rational today would one have been neither (as Dawkins himself suggests). This also applies cross-culturally; without wishing to suggest cultural relativism, to be moral in a society with different morals would require one to act irrationally.
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48. Comment #181382 by AfraidToDie on May 17, 2008 at 5:01 am
I can only thank the Flying Spagetti Monster that I wasn't born in a shithole place like that. I bet their percentage of atheists are real low too, and unnaturally so. Other Comments by AfraidToDie
49. Comment #181394 by MaxD on May 17, 2008 at 6:08 am
Bucketchemist,
Secondly there is rational in the adaptive, social, cultural sense, in which it is understood as behaviour which ensures genetic survival (religion is what the rest of my social group practice so my practicing of it is rational). It seems to me that one of the tasks of scientific enlightenment is to bring these two understandings more into alignment.
I see where you are going, and I am not sure I disagree but just to be pushing the definition here goes. Is rational the right word for what likely amounts to an instinctive urge to go along with the social order in which you find yourself? I think it may matter what exactly is driving the behavior in these situations.
Is it the more calculating regions? Or is driven by other less consciouss aspects of the brain?
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50. Comment #181402 by mmurray on May 17, 2008 at 6:27 am
A quote from Wikipedia:
Honor killing of female family members occurs among some rural Muslim communities with a strongly feudal tribal culture, as well as Druze and Christian tribes in some Arab countries and Pakistan. It also occurs among other South Asian communities, including Hindu and Sikh adherents in India, the United Kingdom and Canada. However, it is much rarer or non-existent in the Muslim communities of most of Central Asia (including Kazakhstan and Kyrghyzstan), Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, sub-Saharan Africa, Malaysia and Indonesia due to its cultural roots.
The United Nations Population Fund estimates that the annual worldwide total of honor-killing victims may be as high as 5,000 women.
On the question of whether other primates or chimps do this Jared Diamond has a thesis that would suggest not. His idea is that these kinds of behaviours arise because of the long timeinvestment human males have to make in raising children and hence the evolutionary `need' to make sure the genes the male is investing all that time in are his. Couple that with the fact that human female ovulation is not obvious so they male cannot really know if these genes are his unless he keeps very close watch upon the female.
If this is true you would also expect that honours killings have been around ever since the physiological changes that lead to longer periods of parenting and difficult to spot ovulation.
While we justifiably view these murders with horror it is worth asking why our own societies still view consensual incest (eg brother and sister) as a crime.
Michael
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1. Comment #181134 by black wolf on May 16, 2008 at 1:12 pm
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