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Monday, May 26, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Town moves against Islamic school

by BBC

Thanks to Mark Dowe for the link.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7416145.stm

Town moves against Islamic school

By Nick Bryant
BBC News, Sydney


With its lace curtain bungalows and steepled Anglican church, the once tranquil town of Camden in New South Wales seems the most improbable of settings for a row that combines race and religion.

Proud of its rich history, the town promotes itself as "the birthplace of the nation's wealth", for it was here, in the early 19th Century, that the sheep and dairy industries first began to flourish.

Now the town, which lies on south-west fringes of Sydney, is confronting a very 21st Century issue: the proposal to construct an Islamic school for some 1,200 Muslim pupils.

Behind the proposal is the Sydney-based Quranic Society, which has purchased 15 acres of land on the fringes of town, and produced detailed plans and designs.

None of them reference any obvious Islamic influences. Functional and non-descript, the two-storey school could easily be a light industrial development.

Camden council is currently deciding whether to grant planning permission and allow the controversial development to go ahead.

'Wrecking Australia'

At the council's headquarters, 12 bulging ring-binders hold more than 3,200 submissions from the public. Only 100 are in favour of the development.
The council will deliver its verdict either later this month or early next.

Twice the town has managed to rebuff the fast food giant McDonald's. Now it has mobilised to block the construction of the Islamic school.

Back in November, more than 1,000 local people took part in a public meeting. Many participants expressed themselves with little regard for political correctness.

"This has to be one of the nicest places in New South Wales," said one woman, who has lived in Camden for the past nine years.

"Everywhere is being destroyed. Why don't we tell the truth. They're wrecking Australia. They're taking us over," she said.

"Why hasn't anyone got any guts? They've got terrorists amongst 'em... They want to be here so they can go and hide in all the farm houses... This town has every nationality... but Muslims do not fit in this town. We are Aussies, OK."

Some of the loudest cheers of the night greeted a speech from a local man in his late 70s.

"Can I just say this without being racist or political?" he said. "In 1983, in the streets of London a parade by Muslims chanted incessantly 'If we can take London, we can take the world'. Don't let them take Camden."

Some speakers focused solely on the environmental impact of locating an urban-scale school in such a bucolic setting; and, in particular, on the traffic congestion it would bring.

One speaker implored the crowd to stick to planning issues, and not let the campaign be contaminated by racism or xenophobia.

When the chair of the meeting invited anyone in favour of the development to speak up, no one stepped forward.

Camden does not harbour a large Muslim community - census figures suggest about 150 families.

Most of the pupils at the proposed school would therefore be bussed in from Sydney, a journey that takes about an hour each way.

'Planning issue'

Andrew Wynnet of the Camden/Macarthur Residents' Group showed me the site of the proposed school, and focused on its unsuitability and undesirability.

"When you have no Muslims living in Camden, why have a Muslim school here?" he asked.

He was also concerned about its long-term, demographic impact.

"The character of the town will change. When you have a large facility like this, the parents will follow. That amount of parents will change the character of the town."

Link to video.

"If you introduce 1,500 Muslim people to the town they'd be a majority. And that's not what this town is about."

Bravely, given that local council elections are due later in the year, Mayor Chris Patterson has adopted a neutral stance.

Presumably, it would have been more politically expedient to veer towards populism.

"This is not a nationalistic issue, it's not a religious issue, it's a planning issue, and it will be addressed on those merits," he says.

Determined that the planning process should be allowed to play out, Mr Patterson does not want to prejudge it.

Acrimonious

Many locals fear that the campaign is being hijacked by right-wing, nationalist groups with their own agendas.

The Australia First organisation has been advertising for members in Camden, and says it plans to field a candidate in September's local elections.

Pauline Hanson, the former leader of the One Nation Party, has also paid a visit to the town, though the local paper, the Camden Advertiser, reported that she mistakenly thought the proposal was for a mosque rather than a school.

The increasingly acrimonious and race-charged debate has also crossed into mainstream politics.

Camden is part of a Liberal-held parliamentary constituency which was high on Labor's target list at last November's federal election.

Campaigning in nearby Campbeltown, the then opposition leader Kevin Rudd said that the local infrastructure could not support such a large school, and that he therefore opposed it on "planning grounds".

The Quranic Society has kept a low public profile and was not available for comment.

But its position has been that Australian parents have the right to educate Australian children wherever they wish, regardless of race or religion. If the council rejects its planning application, it could appeal to the Land and Environment Court.

Camden residents will not give up easily.

"This town has fought all sorts of developments," Andrew Wynnet. "It will take on all-comers regardless of religion."

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1. Comment #184826 by tieInterceptor on May 26, 2008 at 9:09 am

 avatarNot politically correct, but true. Religious indoctrination should not be even a consideration in the 21st century.

Separation of communities by religious education is the worst damage we can do to children. And on top of that, not all religions are equal in their understanding and tolerance of other faiths, and specially of no faith at all.

Islam is well known for its hardcore intolerance, and it's outspokenly and anti-democracy, and considers separation of church and state a sin.

We must wake up quickly to that fact, before we have a large minority that has the right to vote, and wants to take away our right to vote. Or we end with fake elections like in Iran.

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

2. Comment #184832 by riki on May 26, 2008 at 9:17 am

 avatarPauline Hanson is an idiot. There's another article here as well
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/20/2124578.htm

Other Comments by riki

3. Comment #184835 by Granton on May 26, 2008 at 9:23 am

This story doesn't have anything to do with religion does it? Just race.

Other Comments by Granton

4. Comment #184837 by padster1976 on May 26, 2008 at 9:30 am

 avatarIt would be interesting to see who finances this Quranic Society - would it be like the Muslim Council of Britain?

I'm of very mixed emotions to this - I see the blatant racism yet can also see their fears. But where does this fear come from? Is it, like in the UK, from media outlets drumming up facist feeling or is there actual grounds for their position. There are some strong assertions there -

""Everywhere is being destroyed. Why don't we tell the truth. They're wrecking Australia. They're taking us over," she said."

""Why hasn't anyone got any guts? They've got terrorists amongst 'em... They want to be here so they can go and hide in all the farm houses... This town has every nationality... but Muslims do not fit in this town. We are Aussies, OK." "

Are there any actual examples of this?

I'm also conscious of the fact that like america, australia is made of immigrants that ousted the local indigenous population. Well, in the case of australia, that immigrant population was made of convicts as it was first put up as a penal colony. The irony of shouting about foreigners on the shores cannot be ignored in this context.

On another note, the idea of a specific faith school to me is completely wrong. Integration must be the key. Seperation at a young informative stage of development must only serve to strengthen segregation not only from the 'foreign' perspective, but also from the established local population. Hence we see such 'they're all witches' like calls.

Other Comments by padster1976

5. Comment #184839 by History_Junky on May 26, 2008 at 9:32 am

 avatarThats pretty sad that they are using Islam as a way to safely be outwardly racist and xenophobic. Of course im not referring to all of the opposition but it seems as if their is a visible group that clearly has some racial agenda.

People should open up a damn biology text book if they think that skin colour is enough to make them unique from other individuals.

Other Comments by History_Junky

6. Comment #184848 by esuther on May 26, 2008 at 9:39 am

More and more I am for enforced secularism, as in the French schools. If schoolchildren are required by federal law to attend public school, they can do their voodoo, sorry, religious study on the weekend the way kids have been doing it for decades. The whole idea of a Catholic School, a Yeshiva, or a Muslim 'school' (which is the same as a Yeshiva) is repugnant to me -- regardless of how liberal or enlightened the curriculum might be.

On the other hand, the arguments put forth sounded pretty racist to me. All those white folks in Australia seem to have forgotten that they took Australia away from another culture. They don't OWN Australia. It sounds obnoxious to me that they immediately assume that the school will breed terrorists. There are thousands of mosques and moslem schools in Europe and the US that go about their business and bother no one.

But before making a final judgment, I'd like more information. Why, for example, is this Muslim community building a school so far away from Sydney, where all the students live?

Other Comments by esuther

7. Comment #184853 by Corylus on May 26, 2008 at 9:48 am

 avatarEsuther
Why, for example, is this Muslim community building a school so far away from Sydney, where all the students live?
Good question. I have been wondering that myself. I can only presume that the land is cheaper.

However, to be willing put children through an hour journey to and from school seems to indicate that child welfare is not the school planner's first concern.

Other Comments by Corylus

8. Comment #184854 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 9:50 am

Racism.

That being said, the only good solution is to ban all religious schools throughout the country. That would be fair. hee hee

Other Comments by mordacious1

9. Comment #184860 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 9:56 am

Well, you have to have a lot of land for a shooting range and the monkey bars that they keep showing on tv when talking about terrorist training camps. Oh, and the exposives lab (part of the chemistry department) takes up a lot of space. (this is sarcasm, so don't yell at me)

Other Comments by mordacious1

10. Comment #184863 by Tenochtitlan on May 26, 2008 at 9:59 am

 avatar@Granton: agree, this has nothing to do with religion, and everything to do with racism and xenophobia.
Its weird, these people don't have anything against religion per se, (at least not christianity) and I know Australia is filled with immigrants, but I guess Islam and muslims are just a little too much for this little community.

Also, I like how they all go "I'm not being racist, but these folk shouldn't be allowed to build a school there, I mean, just look at them, they're all, like, different from us!"

Yes, racist idiocy is not gone, it's just well-hidden.

Other Comments by Tenochtitlan

11. Comment #184867 by hungarianelephant on May 26, 2008 at 10:05 am

 avatarThe BBC always seems to be looking for racism. Even so, this is about the best it could do here:
Muslims do not fit in this town. We are Aussies, OK

Thing is, that's not actually racist, is it? The person who said it might be a racist. There might be racist undertones. But the fact is that there are large numbers of Muslims in Australia who have no intention whatsoever of integrating with the rest of the populus. And nothing in this proposal would seem to indicate that it's about to start.

What seems to have happened here is a meeting of local people to try to discuss matters which will affect them locally. That's democracy in action. Some will see the proposal as a foot in the door to change the area radically. They may be right or wrong, but it's hardly unreasonable to raise the discussion.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

12. Comment #184868 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 10:06 am

Like my ignorant father used to say: "I'm not racist. I just don't like blacks, mexicans, A-rabs, Jews, etc etc". I've heard this crap before.

Other Comments by mordacious1

13. Comment #184869 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 10:08 am

hungarianelephant
Did you watch the film clip?

Other Comments by mordacious1

14. Comment #184870 by hungarianelephant on May 26, 2008 at 10:13 am

 avatarmordacious1 - Yes. Next question.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

15. Comment #184871 by lozzer on May 26, 2008 at 10:14 am

 avatarIslam isn't a race it's a religion.

If it isn't then I'm certainly racist when it comes to Christianity too.

Other Comments by lozzer

16. Comment #184872 by Granton on May 26, 2008 at 10:15 am

hungarian elephant.

How does a Muslim integrate? By becoming a Methodist, or an atheist?

I bet there wouldn't be much trouble in this case if most muslims were white.

Other Comments by Granton

17. Comment #184873 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 10:20 am

hungarian
No questions, but I know racism when I see it. Just the fact that they assume they have terrorist among them, is enough.

Other Comments by mordacious1

18. Comment #184874 by hungarianelephant on May 26, 2008 at 10:20 am

 avatarGranton, same way as everyone else. Trying to set up a school to maintain continued separation doesn't count as integration, in my book.

What colour are Lebanese, by the way?

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

19. Comment #184875 by bugaboo on May 26, 2008 at 10:21 am

Comment #184867 by hungarianelephant

"The BBC always seems to be looking for racism"

More than this they always equate anti-Islamic feeling with racism, as does the UK government.

And yes this article stinks of racism eg "This town has every nationality... but Muslims do not fit in this town".

Other Comments by bugaboo

20. Comment #184876 by hungarianelephant on May 26, 2008 at 10:21 am

 avatar17. Comment #184873 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 10:20 am
No questions, but I know racism when I see it.

So does the BBC. I hope your radar is a little more accurate.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

21. Comment #184879 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 10:25 am

I didn't say islam, I said muslim.

Other Comments by mordacious1

22. Comment #184882 by Granton on May 26, 2008 at 10:28 am

Hungarianelephant

I'm also firmly against faith schools, but Sydney has lots of Catholic schools. No-one's objecting to that as un-Australian.

Other Comments by Granton

23. Comment #184883 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 10:33 am

The town will problably ban the school. Next year they will build a christian mega church on the site.

The one guy had a hat that read, "No to islamic immigration". hmmm

Other Comments by mordacious1

24. Comment #184887 by hungarianelephant on May 26, 2008 at 10:46 am

 avatarGranton

I'm not sure what your point is. I wasn't arguing against faith schools (though I'm certainly happy to agree with you). You asked what integration would take, and I made a suggestion. Arguing that another church school would also be divisive doesn't address the issue, even if a more familiar one might be treated differently.

As I said, it might very well be that some of the residents of Camden are racists. But I'm not prepared simply to push them into that category without better evidence than this.

It's become virtually impossible to say anything remotely connected with race without being denounced as racist, the greatest thoughtcrime of our age. And many of these people are relatively unsophisticated, and speak more plainly than is politically acceptable.

When someone says "I am not a racist but", what they might mean is, "I am not a racist, but have genuine concerns that some people are determined to characterise as racist". What others hear - and especially the BBC - is "I am a racist and am in denial". I see no reason to presume the second meaning every time.

And we should be particularly alert for it, because Muslims are now trying to play the anti-race card by portraying anti-Islamic sentiment as (a) racist, or (b) akin to racism. We should call them out on this, not play along.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

25. Comment #184888 by EvidenceOnly on May 26, 2008 at 10:47 am

The United Nations should ban ALL religions from getting involved in education of anyone.

Every child should get short comparative courses in school on the silliness of all religions and the gods they created in their own image, mostly abandoned by now. This should be mandatory at the age of 7, again at 12, and again at 18. Just like we keep educating students about the dangers of smoking.

Religious myth, indoctrination and child abuse should be confined to churches and the privacy of homes.

Educational institutions can then to combat this nonsense on a daily basis through real science based on real evidence.

Other Comments by EvidenceOnly

26. Comment #184889 by KRKBAB on May 26, 2008 at 10:48 am

Granton, here is how a Muslim could integrate: by adhering to all of the governmental laws; not EVER trying to insitute "sharia"; and by granting all Muslim women the rights that the laws of Australia grant. Also, this "school" should not be allowed to be built or any other faith based school. Obviously, any previously built shit based, I mean faith based schools should remain, but faith based education taking the place of a secular education should not be allowed for ANY child (or adult) IMHO. These Aussies are partially right, as long as they would be this adverse to ANY religious school. (I realize the obvious zenophobia amongst some of them but perhaps not amongst all of them)

Other Comments by KRKBAB

27. Comment #184890 by phil rimmer on May 26, 2008 at 10:50 am

 avatarWe need to know a lot more before the racist card is played.

Would the community object to a new, but smaller school for just their indigenous Muslim population?

Would they object to such a large school for some loony Christian cult, a new branch of the Westboro Baptist Church for instance?

If the possible answers are no and yes respectively (as they may well be)you have precious little to go slandering the community just yet.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

28. Comment #184891 by Count von Count on May 26, 2008 at 10:53 am

 avatarClaiming that the exclusion of Islam is racist is like claiming the removal of a tumor is murder. Doesn't oppressive, democracy-killing, woman-hating, science-destroying, mind-controlling Islam have the right to live in whatever town it wants? Don't cancer cells have the right to take over whatever body they wish?

If more towns stood up to this bully called Islam (no matter what the race of those who practice it is), this world would be a better place for all of us (including muslims).

"Never underestimate the power of the dark side."-Master Yoda

Other Comments by Count von Count

29. Comment #184893 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on May 26, 2008 at 10:58 am

 avatar
Thats pretty sad that they are using Islam as a way to safely be outwardly racist and xenophobic. Of course im not referring to all of the opposition but it seems as if their is a visible group that clearly has some racial agenda.


This is what is being done everywhere you look. Why? Because nobody but the fucking nutters proffers any criticism.

Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad

30. Comment #184895 by Stew282 on May 26, 2008 at 11:04 am

 avatarA lot of posters here seem to be exhibiting the same pro-multiculturalist, cry-racist sentiments that ensured that anti-integration, anti-democratic, racist muslims achieved immunity from criticism whilst teaching British children to hate western society and all it stands for, creating islamic enclaves within a secular country where religious fanatics are virtually free to govern as they see fit.

Yes, undoubtedly the motives of the people of Camden are tinged with racism, but they are primarily anti-islamic. Perhaps they are learning from Europe's mistakes. I would strongly oppose any plans for any religious, particularly islamic, school being built in my area.

But then again, it's very easy to cry 'racist' when the proposed islamic school is several thousand miles away. It is much harder to criticise a 'not in my back yard' approach when it is actually your back yard.

Islam is incompatible with democracy, freedom of speech, human rights, church/state separation, and virtually every other value of advanced society.

Other Comments by Stew282

31. Comment #184897 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 11:09 am

Steve
So is christian fundalmentalism. They just built a huge church in my town on land that was last year a beautiful forest. No one said a word. Had it been a mosque, the shit would have hit the fan.

Other Comments by mordacious1

32. Comment #184900 by Epinephrine on May 26, 2008 at 11:23 am

 avatarI agree that people mistake concerns about culture/religion with racism.

Race (as typically used, let's not ask whether it has any biological meaning) may be correlated with culture, language, and religion.

A prejudice against race is racism, but being against elements of a culture or religion is not racism.

I am against the treatment of women as chattel, the attitude that men are superior, and various other things associated with some religions.

This has nothing to do with racism, it's my feelings about a behaviour - one that has some correlation with religious belief, and hence with race, but I certainly don't judge by race, but rather by behaviour. I would be against those behaviours (or others by other groups) regardless of skin colour, ethnic heritage, language spoken, or the like.

I'm against islamic schools, but I'm against any religious school, and against any attempt to segregate children by any means, and by any party. The best way to dissolve barriers is experience. I was mildly homophobic until I realised some of my best friends were gay - then it suddenly seemed like the dumbest thing in the world. I'll point out that it's not just religious separation I'm against - it's socioeconomic, racial, sex, political, heck, even geographical, though that part can't be helped to some extent. It's too bad, I think it'd be great to have kids of all nations sitting in classes together, but the commute would be a killer.

While I suspect that some might be racist, others may simply not wish to have segregation rearing its ugly head. That's legit - so long as they'd react the same way about any other segregatory school.

Other Comments by Epinephrine

33. Comment #184902 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 11:36 am

Years ago, some local muslims built a mosque two blocks from my house. As I was riding my bike to University, I'd pass by and we'd wave. Eventually, I met most of the members and we became friends. I even helped two of them get jobs at the hospital where I worked. These were nice, hardworking, moderate muslims. They had nice families and from what I could tell, the women were treated as well, if not better, than some christian women I knew. Most were working or going to University. Unfortunately, by the time I had entered graduate school, the mosque was taken over by some real nut jobs. All my friends had left and started a new mosque across town.

My point is, not all muslims are bad people, not all are planning to bring down western civilization. Unless these people can prove that this is a radical group opening up in their town, then they should just back off. Personally I dislike all religions, but there are a lot of muslims I'd rather have living next door to me than most christian fundies. OK, don't call it racism...call it fear.

Other Comments by mordacious1

34. Comment #184907 by Stew282 on May 26, 2008 at 11:50 am

 avatarRe. Comment 33.

Mordacious...hold on a minute! You say the nice, friendly, moderate muslims were effectively run out of their mosque by radicals and then put the onus on the people of Camden to prove that these aren't radicals. Who's to say that once the school is established by nice, friendly, moderate muslims, it won't be taken over by radicals as your local mosque was?

Apologists keep protesting that islam is a religion of peace when the evidence appears to point to the contrary!

I'm sure a lot of individual Nazis were nice, decent people - that doesn't make the Nazi regime any more palatable.

Other Comments by Stew282

35. Comment #184908 by Epinephrine on May 26, 2008 at 11:52 am

 avatarMordacious1 -

No, many muslims are of course very nice (as are people from many religions). My neighbour two doors over is a very pleasant muslim, and his daughters and mine play together and take the bus together to school. (And sing "I Like to Move It" together, which is hilarious when performed by a 10, 5 and 4 year old getting off a school bus).

While there are many lovely muslims, christians, budhists etc., I still don't like segregation.

I suspect there really is a lot of prejudice in the town of Camden, but at the same time I understand not wanting to have yet another barrier to overcome (separate schools) if that is the reason some have for their objections.

Other Comments by Epinephrine

36. Comment #184910 by Paine on May 26, 2008 at 11:56 am

Isn't it sad, horribly pathetic, that the only people willing to stand up to religious indoctrination in Australia are a bunch of racist hicks?

What hope for secularism in that country?

Other Comments by Paine

37. Comment #184912 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on May 26, 2008 at 12:10 pm

 avatar
Isn't it sad, horribly pathetic, that the only people willing to stand up to religious indoctrination in Australia are a bunch of racist hicks?
Yes as it is in Britain. It is pathetic.

Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad

38. Comment #184914 by huzonfurst on May 26, 2008 at 12:11 pm

Since when is opposition to Islam a "racist" attitude? Racism is a fighting word brought up whenever any group being opposed for whatever reason has run out of excuses for its bad behavior: illegal immigrants in the US call controls on immigration racist; thin-skinned Jews call anything remotely critical of Israel anti-semitic (which doesn't distinguish jews from arabs, strictly speaking); and politically-correct idiots call damn near everything racist at one time or another!

If I ever move to another country I expect to assimilate as much as possible. What's with immigrants who want to escape an oppressive culture by coming to a Western country, yet bring their oppressive culture with them and insist that we "respect" that? That could be construed as racism on their part!

Any country has the right to preserve its own culture. Immigration should be conditional on assimilation - not a complete abandonment of their culture but a recognition by words and deeds that they now belong to a new country - and those who refuse to assimilate should be summarily deported.

This is exactly what happened in Holland, which allowed its Muslim immigrants to form enclaves isolated from the majority culture. Most of them arrived as refugees, then proceeded to continue the same atrocious behaviors that led to them becoming refugees in the first place, and many of these behaviors were illegal under Dutch law.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali was one of these refugees who assimilated to the point of abandoning Islam entirely and becoming a member of Parliament besides. Her self-appointed task was to warn Holland and the West in general to be very concerned about so many Muslim immigrants flooding in and setting up Islamic societies, with all their lovely honor killings, wife-beatings and genital mutilations intact (no pun intended). Since 2002 Ayaan has needed 24-hour security for speaking truth to religious fascism, even in the US where she now lives. Read her book "Infidel" and your hand-wringing about "racism" will slink away with its PC tail between its dickless legs!

Other Comments by huzonfurst

39. Comment #184915 by Acitta on May 26, 2008 at 12:15 pm

The Australian constitution provides for freedom of religion (http://scaleplus.law.gov.au/html/pasteact/1/641/0/PA001400.htm), so if the town prohibited this school because of it's religious nature, it would seem that they would open themselves up to a legal challenge. If we are to live in free societies, we cannot prevent people from choosing to freely organize themselves around ideas and beliefs that we disagree with or see as irrational.

Other Comments by Acitta

40. Comment #184920 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 12:26 pm

These "hicks" aren't standing up against religious indoctrination, they just don't like the religion that is being indoctrinated.

Richard says that he doesn't care what these nuts believe, just don't push it on the rest of us. I agree with that, that is where the line should be drawn, not just picking and choosing which religions are going to be accepted by us. I don't even know if Australia has something akin to our freedom of religion, but I'm sure they do. To pick out one religion and beat up on them like these people are doing is wrong. Maybe you guys want to have the crusades again, I do not.

Other Comments by mordacious1

41. Comment #184925 by huzonfurst on May 26, 2008 at 12:46 pm

Guess what - I *do* care what these nutters believe, because some of what they believe entails monstrous violations of basic human rights! Why must "freedom of religion" allow the continued indoctrination into such vicious ideas?

The answer is it doesn't: "freedom of religion" has become a sacred cow in too many countries. It sounds good on the surface (or used to, now I'm not so sure) but here we are facing some serious unintended consequences. We have the same kid-glove approach to faith-killers in the US, people who call themselves christian "scientists" for one example, who refuse to provide medical attention for their own children and get away with it because "it's their religion!" Anyone else would be justly prosecuted for the same level of neglect. It is simply wrong to allow things like this to happen, and enforcing universal laws does not pick out one religion over another.

You can't tell people what to believe, but we sure as hell have a right to be concerned with what they do, and also what they say if it incites true racism or violence.

The longer you avoid getting involved in doing something about this, mordacious, the harder the fight will be when the battle is joined. "The hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in time of crisis, refuse to take sides." And stop calling these people "hicks," because I'm quite certain you don't know a single one of them; are you a closet racist yourself?

Other Comments by huzonfurst

42. Comment #184928 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 1:00 pm

OK one more post then I'm shutting up. I despise all religions, I do not have a problem with that. But here in the U.S. we are protecting that whacko poligamist sect in Texas (they just let the women and kids go back to the "compound"), and yet a town is discriminating against some muslims because of what they might stand for. I don't like islam either. So tighten the laws and throw these f-tards in jail, but do it across the board. Don't single out one group and let another rape kids.

We had a catholic priest in california who was raping boys. The church sent him to Mexico. The pope should order him back, but instead he is met at the airport by the president. Presidents never do this.

I know, rambling, but like I said, last post on the subject. I'll shut up now.

Other Comments by mordacious1

43. Comment #184930 by Border Collie on May 26, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Hey, Islam is a religion of peace ... and Ebola is a benign infection.

Other Comments by Border Collie

44. Comment #184931 by huzonfurst on May 26, 2008 at 1:02 pm

Once again this website won't let me edit a previous comment: the last line in my previous message was supposed to be "what are you, some kind of elitist (another word that is badly abused by the PC crowd these days)?"

Other Comments by huzonfurst

45. Comment #184932 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 1:06 pm

huzon
Said I'd shut up but "hicks" wasn't my term, I was referring to Paine's post above. I went back and " " it.

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46. Comment #184933 by Epinephrine on May 26, 2008 at 1:11 pm

 avatarhuzonfirst -
You can't tell people what to believe, but we sure as hell have a right to be concerned with what they do


Agreed. I don't care what anyone believes, only how they act. Setting up a separate school is an action, not a belief.

That's not to say that the Camden-ites aren't acting out of fear, racism, or what-have-you - it's entirely possible. In fact, I think it's likely.

Freedom of religious belief does not equal freedom of action. I think that those who would let their children die rather than accept treatment should have their children taken from them and treated. If you want the right to behave in certain ways, find a country in which it is legal. You can believe what you will, but you can't kill children through neglect. That's an action, not a belief, and it's no more justifiable than stoning someone to death or killing heretics due to scripture.

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47. Comment #184943 by MaxD on May 26, 2008 at 1:29 pm

 avatarLike several posters I am of mixed feelings on this issue. I think there are legitamate worries to be had from all faith schools, and the indoctrination in which they tend to engage. My chief concern, were I a Camdenite would be whether or not this Qu'ranic Society was funded by the Muslim Council or some other unsavory group, and what the curriculum would be. Surely a community has a right to know a little about what is being pushed? Would it be a wahabiest curricula?

And even there I am unsure I'd limit their ability to make a school but I'd want to know if the school and its teachers and administrators saw themselves as part of the Camden community (clearly they kind of don't), or if they were going to be teaching something extremely anti-western.

Anyway I am not sure what the best course of action is.

(EDIT: On one thing I am completely sure though. If any faith school is asking for tax breaks or help, I do think they need to be told no. Do it on your own, pay taxes like any other revenue generating operation and best of luck to you. If you want Department of Ed funding (or whatever the international equivalents are) then you must teach certain curricula and your funding will only be alotted for secular curricula. No Korans, no prayer mats, no bibles etc.)

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48. Comment #184949 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 2:07 pm

I keep promising to shut up, but here I go again. I have to admit, that my moderate friends at the mosque were american born, most several generations. The guys that moved in were from another country, not sure which, and I suppose that is where the problem lies. The radical mosque spent its time recruiting black students and one of my black friends said they were teaching that the only way blacks were going to get real freedom was through violence. So I do understand where the fear of these people comes from, but I'd hate to be a decent muslim and be lumped in with all these whackos.

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49. Comment #184953 by huzonfurst on May 26, 2008 at 2:16 pm

Indeed. If the US truly had state/church separation there would be *no* tax breaks at all. Every time some dingy old fool wills a house to a church it comes off the property tax rolls and forces the rest of us to make up the difference. This is a huge problem, worse in the East only because it's been occupied longer. It's time to take all this property back, by persuasion if possible but if not by force as in Mexico in the 19th century. It was acquired under false pretenses, after all.

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50. Comment #184955 by mordacious1 on May 26, 2008 at 2:24 pm

No tax breaks for churches, pay off the national debt in no time. Sounds great, the property tax in CA alone would bring in billions.

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