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The Great Evangelical Decline
by Huffington Post
Thanks to Jim Thompson for the link.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-wicker/the-great-evangelical-dec_b_105009.html
The Great Evangelical Decline
What Baptist leaders have known for years is finally public: The Southern Baptist Convention is a denomination in decline. Half of the SBC's 43,000 churches will have shut their doors by 2030 if current trends continue.
And unless God provides a miracle, the trends will continue. The denomination's growth rate has been declining since the 1950s. The conservative/fundamentalist takeover 30 years ago was supposed to turn the trend around; it didn't make a bit of difference.
Leaders said it did. Reporters and politicians believed it did. But the numbers kept going down until, finally, they have become obvious to everyone.
Evangelical faith has been dropping since 1900, when 42 percent of the U.S. claimed that distinction. Every year, Religious Right evangelicals, such as those who lead the Southern Baptists, are a smaller proportion of the country. Every year, their core values are violated more flagrantly by the media, scientific discovery and mainstream behavior. Every election, politicians promise to serve them and then don't because evangelicals lack the power to make them.
What all this means is that we were duped.
All the hype proclaiming an evangelical resurgence was merely that - hype, a furious shout from a faith losing its grip, manipulation by a relatively small group of dedicated, focused, political power-seekers.
The long decline of Southern Baptist faith is critical to the entire evangelical movement because the Southern Baptist Convention, which claims 16 million members, is the biggest evangelical denomination in the country, almost six times as large as the next biggest predominately white evangelical denomination.
The second-largest evangelical group, the National Association of Evangelicals, has claimed 30 million members. Their churches actually have 7.6 million, tops. Most of those are having the same problems the Baptists are having.
As the true picture of evangelicals' problems has developed, panicked leaders are splitting into camps. Some say that the church is lax, soft, sold out. That what's needed is an even bigger dose of the medicine that the SBC fundamentalist takeover delivered. More authority, more strict interpretations of the Bible, more sermons about sin and suffering and sacrifice, more rigor about who is and who isn't getting to go to heaven.
Others say the problem is image. Evangelicals have been seen as mean-spirited and narrow. Caring about the environment and giving more attention to the poor and needy will turn it around. Get out of politics, they say. Play down abortion and gay rights. That will fix the problem.
But these responses won't halt the increasing irrelevance of evangelical faith to the great majority of the U.S. population. Here are just three of the many reasons.
One is Alcoholics Anonymous and all its 12-step offspring - the creation of two Christian men who wanted to help alcoholics. They modeled AA on the teachings of Jesus and the ideas of philosopher William James. Instead of asking alcoholics to be saved, they asked them to call on a god of their own understanding.
They eschewed guilt and any talk of sinfulness. Repentance was directed at specific people who had been harmed. There was no doctrine, no institution, no demand for monetary support.
Tens of millions of addicts and other troubled people learned that they didn't have to read the Bible, attend church or follow a preacher's rules to engage a divine power that could heal them.
Such open-ended faith had never been experienced before. And so the role of the church as interpreter of God's truth and the Bible as its sole repository lost power with millions.
The second attack came within the church as American evangelicals themselves became less willing to proclaim that they are the only ones saved. That idea had seemed reasonable when people lived in fairly homogeneous groups. Since few people had much to do with foreigners - except in times of war, when they were trying to kill them, or from behind a tourist's camera, when they were making souvenirs of them - "our way is the only way" seemed reasonable.
But international travel, business and communication have changed that. So have huge waves of immigration. Now "the other" is likely to be your son-in-law or grandchild.
The idea that only one little part of one kind of religion has the only way to God has begun to seem more and more unlikely, rude, un-Christian, even. And evangelicals, who don't like being boorish any more than anyone else, have become less and less willing to relegate their neighbors to hell.
So we have a completely formless god of great power and instant accessibility romping around, rescuing millions whom everyone else had given up on. Then we have more Christians getting squeamish about proclaiming hegemony over heaven.
And along comes The Pill. Nothing in history has changed human relations as much as that little white pill.
The curse God laid on Eve wasn't quite so ironclad anymore. Skip forward a few decades, and couples started delaying marriage until their late 20s, 30s or even 40s. But that pill meant there was less pressure to abstain from sex until the wedding.
So hardly anyone did. Evangelical leaders resolutely hewed to the abstinence standard at least formally, resulting in little more than extra hypocrisy.
That didn't matter much. Hypocrisy has always flourished, and it hasn't killed the church yet. But evangelicals' failure to grapple with change meant the church was no help in a world where people were expected to sleep together long before marriage and desperately sought guidance about when and with whom.
Evangelical leaders defend their stance by claiming that God doesn't change and that neither does sin. But sin does change. Slavery wasn't sin once. Now it is. Taking a wife and a concubine wasn't sin once. Now it is.
And God - or our understanding of what God is, which is all we actually have - changes, too. Human understandings are remolded so that faith can remain vital and effective during new times.
Whether evangelical intransigence is pleasing to God isn't anything that humans can ever be absolutely sure of. If it is pleasing to him, God may send a great revival that will sweep the country and restore them to their place of predominance.
Such revivals have happened before. They could happen again.
But I've named only three of the ways that evangelical faith has come to seem less useful, necessary and vital to those who might benefit from its teachings. Evangelical faith is failing in so many other ways that a growing number of Christians believe a New Reformation is needed.
If they are correct, the Southern Baptist Convention is unlikely to lead that reformation. Let's hope it is at least around to participate.
Christine Wicker is the author of "The Fall of the Evangelical Nation: The Surprising Crisis Inside the Church." Her e-mail address is christine@christinewicker.com and her web address is www.christinewicker.com
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/christine-wicker/the-great-evangelical-dec_b_105009.html
The Great Evangelical Decline
What Baptist leaders have known for years is finally public: The Southern Baptist Convention is a denomination in decline. Half of the SBC's 43,000 churches will have shut their doors by 2030 if current trends continue.
And unless God provides a miracle, the trends will continue. The denomination's growth rate has been declining since the 1950s. The conservative/fundamentalist takeover 30 years ago was supposed to turn the trend around; it didn't make a bit of difference.
Leaders said it did. Reporters and politicians believed it did. But the numbers kept going down until, finally, they have become obvious to everyone.
Evangelical faith has been dropping since 1900, when 42 percent of the U.S. claimed that distinction. Every year, Religious Right evangelicals, such as those who lead the Southern Baptists, are a smaller proportion of the country. Every year, their core values are violated more flagrantly by the media, scientific discovery and mainstream behavior. Every election, politicians promise to serve them and then don't because evangelicals lack the power to make them.
What all this means is that we were duped.
All the hype proclaiming an evangelical resurgence was merely that - hype, a furious shout from a faith losing its grip, manipulation by a relatively small group of dedicated, focused, political power-seekers.
The long decline of Southern Baptist faith is critical to the entire evangelical movement because the Southern Baptist Convention, which claims 16 million members, is the biggest evangelical denomination in the country, almost six times as large as the next biggest predominately white evangelical denomination.
The second-largest evangelical group, the National Association of Evangelicals, has claimed 30 million members. Their churches actually have 7.6 million, tops. Most of those are having the same problems the Baptists are having.
As the true picture of evangelicals' problems has developed, panicked leaders are splitting into camps. Some say that the church is lax, soft, sold out. That what's needed is an even bigger dose of the medicine that the SBC fundamentalist takeover delivered. More authority, more strict interpretations of the Bible, more sermons about sin and suffering and sacrifice, more rigor about who is and who isn't getting to go to heaven.
Others say the problem is image. Evangelicals have been seen as mean-spirited and narrow. Caring about the environment and giving more attention to the poor and needy will turn it around. Get out of politics, they say. Play down abortion and gay rights. That will fix the problem.
But these responses won't halt the increasing irrelevance of evangelical faith to the great majority of the U.S. population. Here are just three of the many reasons.
One is Alcoholics Anonymous and all its 12-step offspring - the creation of two Christian men who wanted to help alcoholics. They modeled AA on the teachings of Jesus and the ideas of philosopher William James. Instead of asking alcoholics to be saved, they asked them to call on a god of their own understanding.
They eschewed guilt and any talk of sinfulness. Repentance was directed at specific people who had been harmed. There was no doctrine, no institution, no demand for monetary support.
Tens of millions of addicts and other troubled people learned that they didn't have to read the Bible, attend church or follow a preacher's rules to engage a divine power that could heal them.
Such open-ended faith had never been experienced before. And so the role of the church as interpreter of God's truth and the Bible as its sole repository lost power with millions.
The second attack came within the church as American evangelicals themselves became less willing to proclaim that they are the only ones saved. That idea had seemed reasonable when people lived in fairly homogeneous groups. Since few people had much to do with foreigners - except in times of war, when they were trying to kill them, or from behind a tourist's camera, when they were making souvenirs of them - "our way is the only way" seemed reasonable.
But international travel, business and communication have changed that. So have huge waves of immigration. Now "the other" is likely to be your son-in-law or grandchild.
The idea that only one little part of one kind of religion has the only way to God has begun to seem more and more unlikely, rude, un-Christian, even. And evangelicals, who don't like being boorish any more than anyone else, have become less and less willing to relegate their neighbors to hell.
So we have a completely formless god of great power and instant accessibility romping around, rescuing millions whom everyone else had given up on. Then we have more Christians getting squeamish about proclaiming hegemony over heaven.
And along comes The Pill. Nothing in history has changed human relations as much as that little white pill.
The curse God laid on Eve wasn't quite so ironclad anymore. Skip forward a few decades, and couples started delaying marriage until their late 20s, 30s or even 40s. But that pill meant there was less pressure to abstain from sex until the wedding.
So hardly anyone did. Evangelical leaders resolutely hewed to the abstinence standard at least formally, resulting in little more than extra hypocrisy.
That didn't matter much. Hypocrisy has always flourished, and it hasn't killed the church yet. But evangelicals' failure to grapple with change meant the church was no help in a world where people were expected to sleep together long before marriage and desperately sought guidance about when and with whom.
Evangelical leaders defend their stance by claiming that God doesn't change and that neither does sin. But sin does change. Slavery wasn't sin once. Now it is. Taking a wife and a concubine wasn't sin once. Now it is.
And God - or our understanding of what God is, which is all we actually have - changes, too. Human understandings are remolded so that faith can remain vital and effective during new times.
Whether evangelical intransigence is pleasing to God isn't anything that humans can ever be absolutely sure of. If it is pleasing to him, God may send a great revival that will sweep the country and restore them to their place of predominance.
Such revivals have happened before. They could happen again.
But I've named only three of the ways that evangelical faith has come to seem less useful, necessary and vital to those who might benefit from its teachings. Evangelical faith is failing in so many other ways that a growing number of Christians believe a New Reformation is needed.
If they are correct, the Southern Baptist Convention is unlikely to lead that reformation. Let's hope it is at least around to participate.
Christine Wicker is the author of "The Fall of the Evangelical Nation: The Surprising Crisis Inside the Church." Her e-mail address is christine@christinewicker.com and her web address is www.christinewicker.com
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Posted: Wednesday, June 4, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 70 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #188681 by mordacious1 on June 4, 2008 at 11:32 am
Oh, don't worry. These guys leave one cult, join another. They never seem to get it.This lady is obvious a christian who is bemoaning the decline of the the evanges.
I just hope some of these people come over to the dark side.
Other Comments by mordacious1
3. Comment #188684 by Tetsujin on June 4, 2008 at 11:35 am
"Every year, their core values are violated more flagrantly by the media, scientific discovery and mainstream behavior."That line just made me giggle, and I'm not the giggling type.
Perhaps the author should have used the word "challenged" or another word that didn't imply that somehow scientific discoveries are made in order to violate someone's core values.
"Hey Jim, the test results came back. It turns out you're not a socialist."
Other Comments by Tetsujin
4. Comment #188697 by rebelest on June 4, 2008 at 11:55 am
Fantastic! It's great to have some good news in the war against religionism.It would be nice to see more articles like this done from a secular perspective-scientific studies of church attendance, how the churches use their resources etc.
Other Comments by rebelest
5. Comment #188706 by JLD Calgary on June 4, 2008 at 12:02 pm
[quote] Evangelical leaders defend their stance by claiming that God doesn't change and that neither does sin. But sin does change. Slavery wasn't sin once. Now it is. Taking a wife and a concubine wasn't sin once. Now it is.And God - or our understanding of what God is, which is all we actually have - changes, too. Human understandings are remolded so that faith can remain vital and effective during new times. [/quote]
With a line like this… you still don't think god was a human concept and that people are desperately altering to try and fit with their fairy tale, happy ending fantasies? Seriously?
Other Comments by JLD Calgary
6. Comment #188707 by FightingFalcon on June 4, 2008 at 12:03 pm
Like I've been trying to say, the growth in evangelicalism in America over the past 8 years is an exception to the rule. It's an anomaly that can be largely explained by the fact that Christian evangelicals have patronage in the government in the form of the radical wing of the Republican party (shocking I know but not all Republicans are Christian evangelicals). If you don't believe that a small group can have a tremendous influence in the government, just look at what the Jewish Israeli lobby has been able to accomplish... Other Comments by FightingFalcon
7. Comment #188719 by Lucas on June 4, 2008 at 12:16 pm
"What all this means is that we were duped."I don't know if I've said it here, but I've been trying to argue this basic point for a couple of years now. The success of the Bush administration and vocalness of the Evangelicals has created an overblown perception of their power and influence. I have definitely said it here recently that all our worrying and whining about creationism is similarly overblown. The reality is that we have three key advantages: there are more of us, we are smarter than they are (not inherently, but in terms of education and knowledge base), and, fortunately, we're right. They really don't stand a chance. That's not to say we should become lax in our defense of evolutionary science or the principles of western enlightenment, but we do often seem a little overly reactionary and paranoid. Don't worry. We're winning these arguments, despite the loudness of some of our opponents. Consider this phenomenon more like the bleat of a dying sheep than a call to arms; they are desperate, because they understand that they're losing even better than we do.
Other Comments by Lucas
8. Comment #188727 by tacitus on June 4, 2008 at 12:27 pm
I'm amazed the article doesn't cover the main reason for the religious right's decline -- their members are dying off and their numbers are not being replenished by an influx of young people.Surveys had repeatedly shown that, in general, once a generation reaches its twenties, they don't change their religious beliefs that much (yeah some will, but the overall numbers are remarkably steady over a generation's lifespan.
Simply put, not as many young people are buying into what the SBC and other fundamentalists are selling these days. The number of non-religious young people has risen from about 4% of their generation 40 years ago to anywhere between 15% and 20% today. No doubt the number of fundamentalists amongst the remaining believers is in decline too as America (finally) heads towards being a much more secular society.
There is still a long way to go, and the fundies will not give up without a fight, but abortion, gays and Hell simply do not scare up as many converts as they used to.
Other Comments by tacitus
9. Comment #188733 by mordacious1 on June 4, 2008 at 12:37 pm
Here in CA, I think religion may be on the rise. A lot of people are having fewer kids, because of economics, or whatever. But we have a large influx of catholics coming in from Mexico, that not only bring their archaic faith with them, but tend to have several more kids than average. The only people I know that have more than 3 kids are very religious, this includes catholics, muslims, and mormons.Other Comments by mordacious1
10. Comment #188736 by FightingFalcon on June 4, 2008 at 12:49 pm
Lucas said it perfectly - thank you. Other Comments by FightingFalcon
11. Comment #188745 by Bruno on June 4, 2008 at 1:19 pm
I agree with Lucas.Reality will always eventually assert itself.
But of course that doesn't mean that we shouldn't fight the creationists every step of the way.
Other Comments by Bruno
12. Comment #188761 by scottishgeologist on June 4, 2008 at 1:52 pm
Interesting article - the decline in evangelicalism mentioned actually ties in with a video that is available on YouTube of Mark Driscoll talking about church planting:
Near the start of the video he comes out with a lot of interesting stats:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=E8aZXeFRSBA
Driscolls stats:
1) Upto 80% of "church plants" fail
2) 80 % of all churches in America are plateau'd and declinig
3) Half of the people who claim to go to church actually DO go,
4) The average church is 40 to 50 people
5) 3500 churches dying every year
6) If trends continue, by 2050, there will only be half the number of Christians in America that there are at present
This all ties in with the article above
SG
Other Comments by scottishgeologist
13. Comment #188764 by Tezcatlipoca on June 4, 2008 at 1:55 pm
I got this vibe in Tampa about my sister's church. (She counts de money...demonay, demonay!) When they have 60 people it's remarkable. Other Comments by Tezcatlipoca
14. Comment #188767 by Logicel on June 4, 2008 at 1:59 pm
If it is pleasing to him, God may send a great revival that will sweep the country and restore them to their place of predominance._____
How does he do this? Via his mobile from his perch in the clouds? Does he invade bodies so people will do his bidding? WTF are these people saying? Absolutely and utterly bizarre.
Other Comments by Logicel
15. Comment #188769 by Barbara on June 4, 2008 at 2:00 pm
As the true picture of evangelicals' problems has developed, panicked leaders are splitting into camps. Some say that the church is lax, soft, sold out. That what's needed is an even bigger dose of the medicine that the SBC fundamentalist takeover delivered. More authority, more strict interpretations of the Bible, more sermons about sin and suffering and sacrifice, more rigor about who is and who isn't getting to go to heaven.
(bolding mine)
An injured animal is chased down and finally cornered. The animal is afraid and tries to save itself with the last option it has. It bears it's teeth, growls loudly, and puffs itself up to appear more menacing. What it doesn't realize is that the people surrounding it only want to treat its' wounds and release it, safe and healthy, back into the world.
The animal is religion. Guess who the people are.
Other Comments by Barbara
16. Comment #188773 by eh-theist on June 4, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Oddly enough, I just (yesterday) received an appeal from "Catholic Answers Forums" to support the site (so it isn't just evangelicals).
They told me "We're praying that you'll pledge your support of just $15/month--or more if you can--so that we can meet this shortfall. In exchange, you'll receive 2 FREE gifts that will aid your spiritual journey."
I think the two free gifts are salvation and 3 extra virgins in heaven.
Is it wrong for me to ruin someone else's prayers? (I mean, had I better sign-up for the $15/month for salvation plan so they don't lose their faith?)
Other Comments by eh-theist
17. Comment #188774 by Barry Pearson on June 4, 2008 at 2:06 pm
Christine Wicker has written a book: "The Fall of the Evangelical Nation: The Surprising Crisis Inside the Church."
It is worth reading the reviews of it at Amazon.com. They reveal some more information behind what she is saying:
http://www.amazon.com/Fall-Evangelical-Nation-Surprising-Crisis/dp/0061117161/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212607393
One of the reviews says:
I think she left out one interesting aspect of the problem of the church. Education. The evangelical church of today now prides itself that its leaders are not overly educated. They have a life of experience that has prepared them to pastor not a seminary education. While the workforce is getting more specialized and more educated, the local church is not lifting up education as essential to be on staff.
In fact, a lack of education is more helpful in growing a church at times.
Continuing as we face a flat world more educated world... Evangelical Christianity will lack the ability to communicate with it. All of those students who learn creationism will now have to compete in classrooms with folks who learned evolution. The test is on evolution not creationism.
I think the impact of evangelicals on education is also an element that is part of the disconnect with the world that people in the evangelical world feel and is leading to the decline.
Other Comments by Barry Pearson
18. Comment #188776 by squinky on June 4, 2008 at 2:11 pm
Lucas: good point but atheists (perhaps not very recently) are also in decline worldwide. I'm a believer in memetics over genetics. People are born into religion but can change their opinions in less than a generation. Conversion to evolution over creation is generally one-directional (except for the occasional whacko like Francis Collins).
We ARE right and I hope the correct scientific answer begins to sweep America and that religious influence starts to seriously subside. We have catalysts like Dawkins, Hitchens, and Harris that reignited the fuse. Religious scandals definitely erodes their 'moral high ground' and makes a strong case for humanists.
Other Comments by squinky
19. Comment #188782 by mordacious1 on June 4, 2008 at 2:19 pm
Logicel"...god may send a great revival to sweep the country..."
...as soon as he's short of cash.
Other Comments by mordacious1
20. Comment #188783 by padster1976 on June 4, 2008 at 2:26 pm
So how does this account for the prominent profile of the creationism et al?Or is this the part of what A C Grayling described as the death throes of religion?
I always find this type of report as incongruous to what I perceive as a resurgent level of religiosity.
Other Comments by padster1976
21. Comment #188784 by FightingFalcon on June 4, 2008 at 2:27 pm
6) If trends continue, by 2050, there will only be half the number of Christians in America that there are at present
What concerns me the most is what will be there to replace it (Christianity). New Age garbage? Islam? Buddhism?
Or will Atheists committed to a society of tolerance, respect, the US Constitution and most of all the freedom of individuals to be secure in their personal privacy be there to greet the new America?
That's all I care about. Replacing one superstitious belief (Christianity) with another (New Age self-help bullshit) is not progress in my book.
Other Comments by FightingFalcon
22. Comment #188786 by Quetzalcoatl on June 4, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Padster-
the prominence of creationism could be a combination of things: they see that things are declining, and want to make them appear otherwise. Or it might be because there is now more resistance to creationism than before, which gives it a greater profile by default.
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
23. Comment #188788 by Podaar on June 4, 2008 at 2:42 pm
22. Comment #188786 by Quetzalcoatlthey see that things are declining, and want to make them appear otherwise.This reminds me of Mormon leadership's tactics. They claim 12 million (or more) members worldwide, but they count every person who's ever been baptised and are still alive. Rumor has it that the active membership is much lower.
False bragging rights.
Other Comments by Podaar
24. Comment #188790 by Mike O'Risal on June 4, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Christianity may be declining, but faith in the Ghost of Norman Fell is now the fastest-growing religion in the world. Two weeks ago, I was the only believer. Yesterday, another person expressed their belief. That's 100% growth in Fellationism in just one week! Islam's got nothing on us.Roper be praised!
Other Comments by Mike O'Risal
25. Comment #188791 by Border Collie on June 4, 2008 at 2:43 pm
The decline is not apparent in Fort Worth where Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary is; however, I'm sure there is at least a little wailing and gnashing of teeth over this ...I've been telling the fundies for 28 years that the conservative politicians didn't give a damn about them ... they only wanted their votes and money ... but, spitting into the wind pretty much described the effectiveness of such ...
Other Comments by Border Collie
26. Comment #188797 by phil rimmer on June 4, 2008 at 2:53 pm
mordacious1This lady is obvious a christian who is bemoaning the decline of the the evanges.
I just hope some of these people come over to the dark side.
From her own website she says-
He wanted me to come to one of his conferences and be interviewed about why I was no longer a Christian.
I'm not sure I want to do anything that will cause there to be more Christians.
However she is also inclined to throw in
Who are you to say that Jesus and I have parted ways?
Though it seems she "never can say goodbye", that doesn't put her a million miles from the Hitch and "I'd miss religion if it were to go completely."
Because she HAS come over to the Dark Side, I'll allow her a couple of flashbacks.
Other Comments by phil rimmer
27. Comment #188802 by phil rimmer on June 4, 2008 at 3:15 pm
QuetzOr it might be because there is now more resistance to creationism than before, which gives it a greater profile by default.
Indeed, its when firing your blasters that you get to see those "Monsters from the Id".
Other Comments by phil rimmer
28. Comment #188803 by Christine Wicker on June 4, 2008 at 3:16 pm
These posts are some of the funniest and some of the most cynical I've read anywhere. Add a little profanity and you guys would sound like journalists.I'm the author (and a journalist). The Dark Side?
Thanks for your interest. I'm getting in this too late to comment on all I'd like to.
A couple of points. The newspaper piece could only deal with a few of the findings in the book. Demographics, giving patterns, dangers facing the megachurches, even changes in child-rearing practices are hurting evangelical faith. But nothing is more damaging to it than the move from authority-based truths to the testable truths that science has caused us to embrace.
One of the more brilliant observations in the book
isn't from me it's from an emergent church guy named Spencer Burke, who says that the Internet is having a huge effect on authority because no one knows who is blogging. Just a screen name. No titles (except in this post, sorry) Just the quality of ideas.
Other Comments by Christine Wicker
29. Comment #188804 by Podaar on June 4, 2008 at 3:20 pm
28. Comment #188803 by Christine Wicker
Welcome to RD.net. Thanks for the article.
-- Gregg
Other Comments by Podaar
30. Comment #188811 by randumbness47 on June 4, 2008 at 3:55 pm
"Half of the SBC's 43,000 churches will have shut their doors by 2030 if current trends continue."Wow, what an amazing scientific discovery! The half life of churches is 22 years!
Other Comments by randumbness47
31. Comment #188812 by phil rimmer on June 4, 2008 at 3:58 pm
Christine,You are indeed very welcome here. I hope you get to stay and offer us more insights.
I suspect Amazon might be getting quite a few searches for this and other Wicker work.
Good stuff!
Other Comments by phil rimmer
32. Comment #188816 by Damien White on June 4, 2008 at 4:26 pm
This article ties in with an observation made some time ago by a poster to this site: if as many people went to church as said they actually do, how come there isn't rush hour traffic on Sunday mornings?Other Comments by Damien White
33. Comment #188818 by notsobad on June 4, 2008 at 4:29 pm
Let's hope it is at least around to participate.
Let's hope not.
Evangelical leaders defend their stance by claiming that God doesn't change and that neither does sin. But sin does change. Slavery wasn't sin once. Now it is. Taking a wife and a concubine wasn't sin once. Now it is.
It's just a confirmation of what Dawkins was saying all along about the shifting moral Zeitgeist.
some of the most cynical I've read anywhere.
"It's called reality, my friend."
But nothing is more damaging to it than the move from authority-based truths to the testable truths that science has caused us to embrace.
You say it like it's a bad thing.
Other Comments by notsobad
34. Comment #188819 by mordacious1 on June 4, 2008 at 4:29 pm
ChristineWelcome, sorry it's so late where you are.
I got, perhaps wrongly, the impression from your article that you are still a believer. Phil says that you state (on your site) that you are no longer a christian. Good for you. But have you become a full blown atheist? Just wondering. Either way, we always welcome anyone who contributes sincerely.
One statement catches my eye: "If they are correct, the Southern Baptist Convention is unlikely to lead that reformation. Let's HOPE it is at least around to participate".
I hope they are not around to do anything.
edit: damn my slow typing, notsobad already made my last point.
Other Comments by mordacious1
35. Comment #188820 by liberalartist on June 4, 2008 at 4:34 pm
If people are leaving the Souther Baptist church I wonder if it is just to join another. In the south there is a church on every corner, but a friend of mine said the other day that is because people become dissatisfied, leave their church and form their own.
Lucas said: "all our worrying and whining about creationism is similarly overblown."
I would have to disagree. Yes, their numbers have been overblown, but their power has been real. The supreme court now rests in their favor 5-4 and that will have impact for another decade or more. It is something to be concerned about and I plan to keep up the fight. It is not enough that we outnumber them if we stand by and let them legislate science out of the curriculum.
Other Comments by liberalartist
36. Comment #188822 by mordacious1 on June 4, 2008 at 4:42 pm
They may be small in number, but even people who wander away from various churches tend to vote right wing christian. They also do not "believe" in evolution. They do not like gays or gay marriage. I think younger people who leave may be less indoctrinated, or their parents left and so they didn't get fully indoctrinated. The older ones may not go to church, but still will vote for the GW's of the country.Other Comments by mordacious1
37. Comment #188823 by chuckgoecke on June 4, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Christine and everybody,I think it bares mentioning that the Republican party has duped and used the evangelicals profoundly in the last 20 or so years. They found the weak soft spot in evangelical's hearts, social conservatism; anti-gay,anti-ACLU, anti-sex anything(fun) and packaged it up in a nice mushy pablum for the evangelical preachers to spoon feed to the evangelical masses. Meanwhile, the big business(energy/defense/pharma) and investor class have, thru the Republicans, whittled away at the core of whats really needed for families. Regular, middle class and lower class families need jobs that pay a decent wage, so families are not forced to work three or four jobs, healthcare that really cares for them, regulations that protect them from the real and future costs of big industry. I'm sure that most evangelicals are from the classes of folk that have been ill served by Bush and his cronies. Maybe this fall the evangelicals will wake up. Then I'd think that maybe there is hope for them.
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38. Comment #188826 by SmartLX on June 4, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Great to see you here, Christine.I'm very interested in the 20% or so of evangelical congregations which are in fact growing; the megachurches, TV studio churches and so on. Are they aware that they're likely siphoning members from smaller groups and effectively closing churches, and do they care? And what happens when they're nearly all that's left?
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39. Comment #188828 by rod-the-farmer on June 4, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Re Comment #188761 by scottishgeologist, and theYouTube of Mark Driscoll talking about church planting:
I watched this carefully, for the second time, and it was remarkable (to me) that all he talked about was the need to get MEN to join the church. No mention of women, other than about teaching men to have sex with them, etc. No mention at all of women participating in the management of the church. Sexist pig. Pardon my ad hom. Why then are many congregations predominantly women ? Do they secretly lust after dynamic speakers ?
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40. Comment #188834 by Lucas on June 4, 2008 at 6:08 pm
Squinky - Mmm, I don't think so, actually. Check out the ARIS survey and the various articles that have been written based on its findings. Sure looks like atheism (or the term I prefer, non-belief) is on the rise. I think that a lot of the distortion in perspective around here comes from geographical location. When you're in the middle of a super religious region, it's hard to see how it's declining.liberalartist - Of course we shouldn't just stand by. I said as much. Personally, I'm gearing for one of those postdoc positions at the NCSE in a few years to see if I can't do something to help spread good science education.
Christine - Hang out a bit, there'll be plenty of profanity. Where's Diacanu when we need him?
FightingFalcon - Thank you, sir.
Other Comments by Lucas
41. Comment #188877 by AtheistAspy on June 4, 2008 at 9:50 pm
PodaarThis reminds me of Mormon leadership's tactics. They claim 12 million (or more) members worldwide, but they count every person who's ever been baptised and are still alive. Rumor has it that the active membership is much lower.
False bragging rights.
Funny, I read somewhere there are more ex-mormomons than mormons and that only 25% of converts remain mormon.
The mormon church is also not the fastest growing.
Also, unlike other churches, they don't publicly release details about how much they donate to charity.
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42. Comment #188881 by King of NH on June 4, 2008 at 10:07 pm
The Mormon Church also allows members to baptise deceased friends or family. Anybody here could become a Mormon in death if a practicing Mormon can argue that you would have become Mormon had you been given more opportunity. I'm sorry I don't know more details on why. My wife is a recovering Mormon, but she's not available to ask right now. I would be personally appaled by this defiling of the dead, but honestly, when I'm dead I'm dead. I don't care if they chant away and pretend, so long as my 'conversion' doesn't undo any work I've done in life. Other Comments by King of NH
43. Comment #188882 by acs on June 4, 2008 at 10:08 pm
"And God - or our understanding of what God is, which is all we actually have - changes, too. Human understandings are remolded so that faith can remain vital and effective during new times."This is almost a threat - or at least thats how the language appears.
It does highlight a real problem. It only takes one generation for all the freedoms and tolerance of a society to shrivel up and be replaced by religious bantering and closedmindedness.
In my own country, Australia, we had free higher education, as well as genuine regard for human rights in the 1970's. Nowadays, we have a US style education system that caters to the rich and we lock refugees that come to our shores in detention centres that are more like dog pounds.
It only takes 1 generation for the rational to be replaced by the loon.
Other Comments by acs
44. Comment #188910 by irate_atheist on June 5, 2008 at 1:56 am
Christine Whicker -Whether evangelical intransigence is pleasing to God isn't anything that humans can ever be absolutely sure of. If it is pleasing to him, God may send a great revival that will sweep the country and restore them to their place of predominance.??????????? How can you possibly make this assertion? Do you have any proof of your god in the first place??
Other Comments by irate_atheist
45. Comment #188937 by AllanW on June 5, 2008 at 2:37 am
Welcome to RD.net Christine and thank you for both your book and the article. Both useful additions to the information-flow.What you describe as cynical is, to me, merely sceptical. Your comment about us appearing like journalists is apt; many posters here are doing for themselves what experienced journalists with integrity used to do in the mainstream media but which has become vanishingly rare namely sifting, weighing, checking and balancing information to arrive at thoughtful but tentative guidelines or conclusions.
I'm pleased for you that you seem to be questioning your own religious instruction. I think you'll find quite a few threads on here that will give you further food for thought.
Other Comments by AllanW
46. Comment #188946 by irate_atheist on June 5, 2008 at 2:58 am
28. Comment #188803 by Christine Wicker -These posts are some of the funniest and some of the most cynical I've read anywhere. Add a little profanity and you guys would sound like journalists.In response may I add:
1. Humour is good - it helps alleviate some of the downsides of the 'human condition'.
2. Cynicism - I would say that gullibility is bad. Belief without evidence is bad. Dogma is bad. Religion is bad.
3. Profanity - you clearly haven't read many of my posts...
Other Comments by irate_atheist
47. Comment #188969 by adamhaar on June 5, 2008 at 4:31 am
Re: 43. Comment #188882 by acsIt only takes 1 generation for the rational to be replaced by the loon.
Your statement certainly sounds plausible but the evidence you show to support this conclusion is not.
1. While higher education is not free, it is definitely not like the U.S.A.'s system. I suggest you educate yourself on HECS/HELP for university students and the very-highly-subsidised TAFE courses (at least in Victoria; other states may charge full fees for TAFE students for all I know).
2. The 1970s were not a time of "genuine regard for human rights". Sure, there were many who had such regard, but many more did not. Australia did nothing to protect the rights of the East Timorese against the invasion by Indonesia (perhaps because we wanted the oil). Gay rights might have been coming into place, but bashing of gay men was common. Refugees and immigrants were treated badly by the general populous.
Today, some things have changed and some stay the same. Just this year the Labor Federal Government repeated the Liberal (coalition) Goverment's actions a few years back to quash the ACT's gay marriage legislation. As for locking up people who come to Australia outside of a recognised refugee program, there are two things: 1. the new Government is changing things (although it remains to be seen what the outcomes are) and 2. it is more complex than your assertion allows for.
[EDIT: remove unfounded assertion.]
Other Comments by adamhaar
48. Comment #188973 by j.mills on June 5, 2008 at 5:02 am
Just on this discrepancy between the apparent decline in evangelical membership and the strident public voice of creationism etc; a quote from a novel by John Crowley:
Secret societies have not had influence in history. However, the notion that secret societies have had influence in history has had influence in history.
Something to chew on there. And if that doesn't keep you awake, chew on this:
E.T. plus Vangelis = EVangelisT!
Spooky, huh?
Other Comments by j.mills
49. Comment #188979 by Tyler Durden on June 5, 2008 at 5:34 am
Christine,
Welcome to RD.net, appreciate the article, always good to have new topics and talking points.
A few comments:
And unless God provides a miracle, the trends will continue.You'll be waiting.
Others say the problem is image. Evangelicals have been seen as mean-spirited and narrow.Try ignorant.
And evangelicals, who don't like being boorish any more than anyone else, have become less and less willing to relegate their neighbors to hell.Really? Not the ones I've met/talked to. Have you seen "Jesus Camp"??
Human understandings are remolded so that faith can remain vital and effective during new times.Huh?? What does this even mean? Human understandings are remolded so that we can live within the current moral zeitgeist without killing each other, or looking extremely foolish. Evangelicals I know are still stuck in the 2nd century.
Whether evangelical intransigence is pleasing to God isn't anything that humans can ever be absolutely sure of. If it is pleasing to him, God may send a great revival that will sweep the country and restore them to their place of predominance.Er? Which God? Your God? That assertion is weak based on the fact you haven't proven this "God" exits.
Evangelical faith is failing in so many other ways that a growing number of Christians believe a New Reformation is needed.Yeah, good luck with that. Sometimes it's best just to let go. Certain ways of thinking become extinct for very good reasons - maybe their time has come. Unless of course, they evolve to fit with 21st century society. (Not holding my breath)
Let's hope it is at least around to participate.I disagree. If the Southern Baptist Convention can't kick it in the real world, then "Adios Amigos". What purpose would they actually hold? From an evolutionary perspective, use it or lose it.
Other Comments by Tyler Durden
50. Comment #188980 by savroD on June 5, 2008 at 5:37 am
Well..... It's about time we received some gospell, I mean good news! It's a bankrupt philosophy that has no basis for support in this world. I use to ask christians for the opinion of Jesus on Nuclear weapons and power, as well as genetic engineering. Hell..... I wonder why the bible doesn't tell us the dangers of cellphone and ipod usage on wednesdays at 9:00am, when the cat falls back asleep, and the sky is cloudy!
By the way... I'll have one of those!!!
Other Comments by savroD
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1. Comment #188672 by HitbLade on June 4, 2008 at 11:20 am
"And God - or our understanding of what God is, which is all we actually have - changes, too."lol?
Decline. this is good.
[EDIT] Wohooo! first post again!
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