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Wednesday, June 4, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Opponents of Evolution Adopting a New Strategy

by NY Times

Thanks to Catalin Sandu for the link.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/04/us/04evolution.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Opponents of Evolution Adopting a New Strategy

By LAURA BEIL
Published: June 4, 2008

DALLAS — Opponents of teaching evolution, in a natural selection of sorts, have gradually shed those strategies that have not survived the courts. Over the last decade, creationism has given rise to "creation science," which became "intelligent design," which in 2005 was banned from the public school curriculum in Pennsylvania by a federal judge.

Now a battle looms in Texas over science textbooks that teach evolution, and the wrestle for control seizes on three words. None of them are "creationism" or "intelligent design" or even "creator."

The words are "strengths and weaknesses."

Starting this summer, the state education board will determine the curriculum for the next decade and decide whether the "strengths and weaknesses" of evolution should be taught. The benign-sounding phrase, some argue, is a reasonable effort at balance. But critics say it is a new strategy taking shape across the nation to undermine the teaching of evolution, a way for students to hear religious objections under the heading of scientific discourse.

Already, legislators in a half-dozen states — Alabama, Florida, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri and South Carolina — have tried to require that classrooms be open to "views about the scientific strengths and weaknesses of Darwinian theory," according to a petition from the Discovery Institute, the Seattle-based strategic center of the intelligent design movement.

"Very often over the last 10 years, we've seen antievolution policies in sheep's clothing," said Glenn Branch of the National Center for Science Education, a group based in Oakland, Calif., that is against teaching creationism.

The "strengths and weaknesses" language was slipped into the curriculum standards in Texas to appease creationists when the State Board of Education first mandated the teaching of evolution in the late 1980s. It has had little effect because evolution skeptics have not had enough power on the education board to win the argument that textbooks do not adequately cover the weaknesses of evolution.

Yet even as courts steadily prohibited the outright teaching of creationism and intelligent design, creationists on the Texas board grew to a near majority. Seven of 15 members subscribe to the notion of intelligent design, and they have the blessings of Gov. Rick Perry, a Republican.

What happens in Texas does not stay in Texas: the state is one of the country's biggest buyers of textbooks, and publishers are loath to produce different versions of the same material. The ideas that work their way into education here will surface in classrooms throughout the country.

" 'Strengths and weaknesses' are regular words that have now been drafted into the rhetorical arsenal of creationists," said Kathy Miller, director of the Texas Freedom Network, a group that promotes religious freedom.

The chairman of the state education board, Dr. Don McLeroy, a dentist in Central Texas, denies that the phrase "is subterfuge for bringing in creationism."

"Why in the world would anybody not want to include weaknesses?" Dr. McLeroy said.

The word itself is open to broad interpretation. If the teaching of weaknesses is mandated, a textbook might be forced to say that evolution has an "inability to explain the Cambrian Explosion," according to the group Texans for Better Science Education, which questions evolution.

The Cambrian Explosion was a period of rapid diversification that evidence suggests began around 550 million years ago and gave rise to most groups of complex organisms and animal forms. Scientists are studying how it unfolded.

Evolution as a principle is not disputed in the scientific mainstream, where the term "theory" does not mean a hunch, but an explanation backed by abundant observation, and where gaps in knowledge are not seen as grounds for doubt but points for future understanding. Over time, research has strengthened the basic tenets of evolution, especially as advances in molecular genetics have allowed biologists to read the history recorded in the DNA of animals and plants.

Yet playing to the American sense of fairness, lawmakers across the country have tried to require that classrooms be open to all views. The Discovery Institute has provided a template for legislators to file "academic freedom" bills, and they have been popping up with increasing frequency in statehouses across the country. In Florida, the session ended last month before legislators could take action, while in Louisiana, an academic-freedom bill was sent to the House of Representatives after passing the House education committee and the State Senate.

In Texas, evolution foes do not have to win over the entire Legislature, only a majority of the education board; they are one vote away.

Dr. McLeroy, the board chairman, sees the debate as being between "two systems of science."

"You've got a creationist system and a naturalist system," he said.

Dr. McLeroy believes that Earth's appearance is a recent geologic event — thousands of years old, not 4.5 billion. "I believe a lot of incredible things," he said, "The most incredible thing I believe is the Christmas story. That little baby born in the manger was the god that created the universe."

But Dr. McLeroy says his rejection of evolution — "I just don't think it's true or it's ever happened" — is not based on religious grounds. Courts have clearly ruled that teachings of faith are not allowed in a science classroom, but when he considers the case for evolution, Dr. McLeroy said, "it's just not there."

"My personal religious beliefs are going to make no difference in how well our students are going to learn science," he said.

Views like these not only make biology teachers nervous, they also alarm those who have a stake in the state's reputation for scientific exploration. "Serious students will not come to study in our universities if Texas is labeled scientifically backward," said Dr. Dan Foster, former chairman of the department of medicine at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center at Dallas.

"I'm an orthodox Christian," Dr. Foster said, "and I don't want to say that Christianity is crazy." But science, not scripture, belongs in a classroom, he said. To allow views that undermine evolution, he said, "puts belief on the same level as scientific evidence."

Dr. Foster is a veteran of the evolution wars. He met with Mr. Perry in 2003 when the "strengths and weaknesses" argument last appeared, and more recently he worked to oppose an application by the Institute for Creation Research, which supports the teaching of creationism, to award graduate degrees in the state. (It was rejected on April 23, but the institute has said it will appeal.)

This time around, however, scientists like Dr. Foster see more reason for worry. Although the process might drag on till next spring, a state-appointed committee of science educators has already begun to review the curriculum requirements. Although the state education board is free to set aside or modify their proposals, committee members will recommend that the "strengths and weaknesses" phrase be removed, said Kevin Fisher, a committee member who is against the teaching of creationism.

"When you consider evolution, there are certainly questions that have yet to be answered," said Mr. Fisher, science coordinator for the Lewisville Independent School District in North Texas.

But, he added, "a question that has yet to be answered is certainly different from an alleged weakness."

Mr. Fisher points to the flaws in Darwinian theory that are listed on an anti-evolution Web site, strengthsandweaknesses.org, which is run by Texans for Better Science Education.

"Many of them are decades old," Mr. Fisher said of the flaws listed. "They've all been thoroughly refuted."

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1. Comment #188679 by Tetsujin on June 4, 2008 at 11:29 am

This is wonderful if we also get to educate kids about the strengths and weaknesses of religious dogma. Why little Susie needs to die of bone cancer so that you have the opportunity to decide if you want to accept Jesus, or how Muslims confuse themselves with concepts of free will and predestination.

At least we have or are close to answers for the weaknesses... the creationists have had nothing for centuries.

While we're at it, let's talk about the weaknesses for the atomic theory and gravity.

Other Comments by Tetsujin

2. Comment #188683 by MarcLindenberg on June 4, 2008 at 11:33 am

 avatarit bottles the mind to try to grasp how someone denies evolution.
Really!?

*yes mind bottling... you know, where your thoughts get trapped, like in a bottle. :P

Other Comments by MarcLindenberg

3. Comment #188685 by Tetsujin on June 4, 2008 at 11:38 am

just another case of MS Word taking precedence over proofreading

Other Comments by Tetsujin

4. Comment #188686 by TruthByEvidence on June 4, 2008 at 11:39 am

The strengths and weaknesses?

So.... what does that mean?

"This section totally makes sense, class! However, this bit, not so much...unless you actually read it to a point that involves maintained comprehension of complex ideas that are backed by evidences that are so abundant that only someone not educated about such concepts would question it seriously, for all his inquiries and questions have already been answered decades ago by top notch scientists and biologists."

..."So, yeah class, you're 16, you're ALL intelligent enough to be capable of understanding these ideas enough to make your own assertions, for obviously, us professors and teachers have no place to classify these things as factual! What kind of absurdity would that be? You might actually learn something in science class, and we just simply can't have that!"

P.S.

Why is it that many high school science teachers in the US are usually rather unenthusiastic about the subject? Is it their wages and the apathy of the students, or do they just not like science? It makes me sad...

Other Comments by TruthByEvidence

5. Comment #188688 by mordacious1 on June 4, 2008 at 11:40 am

Didn't Texas just fire their top person for science education, over her unbending support for evolution? The first step it looks like.

What these morons don't get is that evolution is a fact. Now, if they want to argue the pros and cons of Natural Selection, go for it, but only in a scientific, and here I mean "real science", way.

Other Comments by mordacious1

6. Comment #188691 by JLD Calgary on June 4, 2008 at 11:47 am

Wow that site is pretty bad; the way it's written, the shamelessly emphasized words, the plea to parents. The internet needs a giant "Crap" stamp that gets thrown on sites like this one that spew this kind of garbage out.

Other Comments by JLD Calgary

7. Comment #188692 by WilliamP on June 4, 2008 at 11:49 am

I'm glad that the Times is bringing this issue to a wide audience.

The Creationists are trying to seek "academic freedom" these days. This "strength and weakness" thing is more of the same one-sided crap. It only applies to ID, and not to any other crazy theory that doesn't belong in schools. I really hope that people with other crazy idea come forth to challange academic freedom laws that only address ID. Those who want academic freedom for ID don't want it for 9/11 conspiracy theories. They should want to teach the strengths and weaknesses of the official 9/11 story too if they are serious, but they don't. If a historian had a theory that Jesus was gay, they would probably openly fight the teaching of that theory in schools, and would be against allowing teachers to point out that he only hung out with men and never had a girlfriend. They only want to be "objective" when it comes to ID.

"Academic Freedom" is just a cover for ID and those behind these laws can easily be exposed as hypocrites when they refuse to support academic freedom for theories that are just as absurd as ID. I hope that other people come forward trying to teach their crazy ideas. I doubt that lawmakers will be able to distinguish one type of nonsense from another in their laws and still claim that they are pushing for academic freedom. That way none of this garbage will get into schools.

Other Comments by WilliamP

8. Comment #188693 by falterer on June 4, 2008 at 11:51 am

Just as the "God of the Gaps" argument forces God into an ever-shrinking box, creationists are being forced to reduce the magnitude of their claims. From "creationism" to "intelligent design" to "strengths and weaknesses" we can see them slowly being forced to eliminate bits of their story.

Unfortunately, whenever they win debates like these, it's a wedge of precedent for future proceedings.

Other Comments by falterer

9. Comment #188696 by Geodesic17 on June 4, 2008 at 11:54 am

If CDesign Proponentsists believe in free speech, the Discovery Institute should open its press releases to be commented on through its site. For people who claim to be squelched, they certainly do a good job of trying to silence others.

Other Comments by Geodesic17

10. Comment #188708 by bluebird on June 4, 2008 at 12:04 pm

 avatarThe Show-Me State's "academic freedom" bill failed to pass a few weeks ago:
http://www.ncseweb.org/resources/news/2008/MO/751_missouri_antievolution_bill_di_5_19_2008.asp

Reason prevails, for the now...

Other Comments by bluebird

11. Comment #188713 by Szkeptik on June 4, 2008 at 12:08 pm

"...a state-appointed committee of science educators has already begun to review the curriculum requirements. Although the state education board is free to set aside or modify their proposals, committee members will recommend that the "strengths and weaknesses" phrase be removed..."

How come school boards consisting mainly of lay people and parents have a right to completely change or ignore a curriculum that is proposed by professionals of the relevant fields? This is an awfully inefficient way to maintain good science stabdards. Why is it this way in the USA?

Other Comments by Szkeptik

12. Comment #188726 by zpokthesecond on June 4, 2008 at 12:27 pm

They have a nice form where you can tell on teachers that don't teach the "weaknesses" enough.

Here's my submission
"Thank you for submitting the following information:
...
D1: Texas
T2: Imadoofus
T3: Turnoutthelightplease
...

S1
Gravity is clearly not proven and against the natural order of things.
S2
I want to replace all instances of "gravity" with "God-magnetism".

Other Comments by zpokthesecond

13. Comment #188746 by Quine on June 4, 2008 at 1:26 pm

 avatarStrengths: Explains the diversity of life.

Weaknesses: You have to be able to think to "get" it. (Easier if you can also read.)

Other Comments by Quine

14. Comment #188753 by eh-theist on June 4, 2008 at 1:40 pm

 avatarDemocracy - you have to love it! "If most of us believe it, it must be true!"

Other Comments by eh-theist

15. Comment #188765 by davemei on June 4, 2008 at 1:56 pm

 avatarDamnit! Why'd it to be texas again. I never ran into any of this...

It's a shame. I have a feeling I'll be fighting for my kids to get a secular education.

This guy doesn't deserve his certification to practice medicine...much less his degree.

Other Comments by davemei

16. Comment #188766 by nunquam on June 4, 2008 at 1:59 pm

I think this proves that anti-evolutionist arguments...are evolving! Yuk-yuk! (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)

Other Comments by nunquam

17. Comment #188771 by davemei on June 4, 2008 at 2:03 pm

 avatar
Dr. McLeroy believes that Earth's appearance is a recent geologic event â€" thousands of years old, not 4.5 billion. "I believe a lot of incredible things," he said, "The most incredible thing I believe is the Christmas story. That little baby born in the manger was the god that created the universe."

But Dr. McLeroy says his rejection of evolution â€" "I just don't think it's true or it's ever happened" â€" is not based on religious grounds.


Wait, what? Your basis for believing that the universe is about, I don't know, 6,000 years old...is NOT religious? You think the universe is created, but that claim is not based on Christianity? These folks are not just lying to themselves, they're lying to the public.

Courts have clearly ruled that teachings of faith are not allowed in a science classroom, but when he considers the case for evolution, Dr. McLeroy said, "it's just not there."


Oh, ok..it makes sense now. He's just trying to hide behind a veil.

"Science, I mean, evolution, in this case, can be misleading. We should, um, teach young earth science, because there is an equally valid non-religious explanation for it."

Other Comments by davemei

18. Comment #188778 by Szymanowski on June 4, 2008 at 2:13 pm

 avatar
DALLAS â€" Opponents of teaching evolution, in a natural selection of sorts, have gradually shed those strategies that have not survived the courts. Over the last decade, creationism has given rise to "creation science," which became "intelligent design,"...

The article neglects to mention cdesign proponentsists :)

Other Comments by Szymanowski

19. Comment #188807 by RamziD on June 4, 2008 at 3:35 pm

I'm from Texas and I think I got a very good scientific education from the public schools there all the way from high school through medical school. I'm doing my residency in Arizona, but to be honest, if something like this academic freedom bill passes in Texas, I will not move back. There is no way I would want to raise a family in a state that tries to teach religious theory in it's science classrooms (and I'm a very big supporter of public education, so I wouldn't want to send my children to private school). This is really quite a shame, the direction our state (country) is heading in. It almost makes me want to set up a practice in Europe when I'm done with residency.

Other Comments by RamziD

20. Comment #188813 by RevolvingImages on June 4, 2008 at 4:00 pm

Good grief - strengthsandweaknesses.org has Expelled links plastered all over it and a quote by C.S. Lewis on the front page. They also have this to say about Expelled: "It has received almost universally positive reviews". They're not interested in strengths and weaknesses, only ignorant bias.

Other Comments by RevolvingImages

21. Comment #188815 by liberalartist on June 4, 2008 at 4:10 pm

 avatarwith people defending this bill this way:

...believes that Earth's appearance is a recent geologic event â€" thousands of years old, not 4.5 billion. "I believe a lot of incredible things," he said, "The most incredible thing I believe is the Christmas story. That little baby born in the manger was the god that created the universe."

it has no chance of standing up in court. Let him be the mouth piece for this movement and I am not worried. And Bluebird, thanks for the MO update, its good news.

Other Comments by liberalartist

22. Comment #188821 by notsobad on June 4, 2008 at 4:38 pm

 avatarThe one weakness I can think of immediately is that morons like people behind this initiative haven't been selected out of the gene pool yet.

Other Comments by notsobad

23. Comment #188824 by TalentedChimp on June 4, 2008 at 4:47 pm

 avatar
In other words, don't bother this court with such frivolous legal drivel.


A rather telling interpretation of the decision to not uphold Yoko Ono's claim. How hypocritical then that the {$insert_latest_creationist_label} lobby is relying on the same "frivolous legal drivel" to shoehorn their views into science classes.

Other Comments by TalentedChimp

24. Comment #188825 by SmartLX on June 4, 2008 at 4:48 pm

I just want to pick up on the expression "American sense of fairness". Australians have roughly the same thing: the ubiquitous notion of a "fair go".

I'm wondering, you folks from other places, does every democratic country think it's the fairest of them all or is it just us two?

Other Comments by SmartLX

25. Comment #188832 by prettygoodformonkeys on June 4, 2008 at 5:58 pm

 avatarQuine:
Strengths: Explains the diversity of life.

Weaknesses: You have to be able to think to "get" it. (Easier if you can also read.)
Excellent!

Other Comments by prettygoodformonkeys

26. Comment #188836 by rod-the-farmer on June 4, 2008 at 6:17 pm

 avatarRe Comment #188708 by bluebird and the proposed Missouri legislation
teaching of biological and chemical evolution

Sorry, did I miss something ? Chemical evolution ? For example, when sodium and chlorine mate (sorry, evolve) and produce....salt ? Either I am more dense than I thought, or the person(s) drafting this made it only partway through high school. And as for Leroy the dentist, I wonder what would happen if someone asked the Texas Board of Dentistry (or whatever it is called) to re-examine his license to practise as a dentist, based on his apparent lack of basic science knowledge ?

I am always amazed that people NOT trained in a particular field will make strong statements ABOUT that field, in their official capacity, while disregarding the testimony of those who ARE experts. There has to be a name for this....other than f***tard.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

27. Comment #188838 by T4Baxter on June 4, 2008 at 6:52 pm

 avatarHi everyone,I love this community of commentators! It's a shame our collective wisdom is wasted on this site... you know, we would serve ourselves better by choosing a specified creationist site, each month. And talk about the issues raised on this site, there! :) not only would it be great advertising for RDF it would give the creationist bloggers something to read that might actually help them in achieving that awesome feeling of joy only found though the most probable understanding of the reality we inhabit! The only comment I want to read on here is where your all gonna be at 'this month' :) I think that would kick colon... oh yeah and we can devastate the pallid arguments we discover wherever we tread.

Other Comments by T4Baxter

28. Comment #188844 by EvidenceOnly on June 4, 2008 at 7:30 pm

Ref. 17. Comment #188771 by davemei on June 4, 2008 at 2:03 pm

They claim ownership to morality that they want to enforce on everyone and spend a whole lot of time "lying for Jesus".

It seems that their morality is little more than "lying for Jesus" and child abuse by indoctrinating their nonsense through the educational system.

They are shameless hypocrites.

Other Comments by EvidenceOnly

29. Comment #188850 by EvidenceOnly on June 4, 2008 at 7:41 pm

We need to encourage science teachers in those IDiotic states who vote to teach the strengths and weaknesses of evolution to also teach the weaknesses of the weaknesses.

A good summary can be found at:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/12/34_unconvincing_arguments_for.php

It is only a couple of pages long and very straightforward.

Could be thought convincingly in about 1 hour.

Other Comments by EvidenceOnly

30. Comment #188867 by Don_Quix on June 4, 2008 at 9:09 pm

 avatarI don't have a problem with this as long as all students are also required to have an equal number of years of comparative religion courses where they discuss the "strengths and weaknesses" of major religions...with a particular emphasis of the discussion on fundamentalist interpretations of Christianity.

Other Comments by Don_Quix

31. Comment #188883 by King of NH on June 4, 2008 at 10:23 pm

 avatarDavemei,

No, I don't believe his arguments are entirely based on his religion. I think they are based on his wilfull ignorance and xenophobia. Absolutely no knowledge of Biology, Geology, Astronomy, or Physics has caused him to dismiss the entire field as to hard to understand. His stupidity is more a factor than his religion.

Other Comments by King of NH

32. Comment #188893 by Szymanowski on June 4, 2008 at 11:53 pm

 avatarRe. #188836 by rod_the_farmer...

Whilst all "evolution" could be broadly defined as being within "biology", natural selection purely of molecular replicators (polynucleotides which themselves aren't "alive" or even part of "live" organisms), which could be discussed relating to the origins of life, might just be worthy of the "chemistry" designation, no?

... but perhaps I give the fundies too much credit. Hilarious that they claim the bill is about 'critical thinking skills' when it's actually about utterly uncritical faith skills.

Other Comments by Szymanowski

33. Comment #188907 by irate_atheist on June 5, 2008 at 1:51 am

 avatar26. Comment #188836 by rod-the-farmer -
I am always amazed that people NOT trained in a particular field will make strong statements ABOUT that field, in their official capacity, while disregarding the testimony of those who ARE experts. There has to be a name for this....other than f***tard.
I have seen epeeist use the term creotard. It seems most appropriate in this case.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

34. Comment #188913 by Mbee on June 5, 2008 at 1:57 am

 avatarOK so we also need to teach the 'strengths and weaknesses' of physics and chemistry too. Why do this just with biology and why pick out evolution!?
(Yes I know why!)

I don't have a problem with this as there are no weaknesses! You could consider 'alternate scientific theories' in physics, chemistry and biology. As long as it is an alternate 'scientific' theory of which creationism and IDism are not alternative 'scientific' theories, so they must be ruled out! Q.E.D.

Other Comments by Mbee

35. Comment #188921 by Tyler Durden on June 5, 2008 at 2:12 am

 avatar
The chairman of the state education board, Dr. Don McLeroy, a dentist in Central Texas
Wait, he's not an evolutionary biologist, but a dentist, ahhh, I see.

Dr. McLeroy believes that Earth's appearance is a recent geologic event - thousands of years old, not 4.5 billion.

But Dr. McLeroy says his rejection of evolution - "I just don't think it's true or it's ever happened" - is not based on religious grounds.
Liar, liar, pants on fire!

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

36. Comment #188935 by Peribolos on June 5, 2008 at 2:32 am

 avatar
"I believe a lot of incredible things," he said, "The most incredible thing I believe is the Christmas story. That little baby born in the manger was the god that created the universe."


So essentially what he is saying is that he will credulously accept any old w**k. And yet somehow he considers this to be a case for his crazy views being put on the science syllabus. Am I missing something?

Other Comments by Peribolos

37. Comment #188949 by MorituriMax on June 5, 2008 at 3:02 am

 avatarActually re:post 1, we should figure out which Religions have greater instances of bone cancer, crib deaths, murder, suicides, divorces, amputee miracle cures, etc. and teach students which Religions they should consider over others based on those strengths and weaknesses.

Other Comments by MorituriMax

38. Comment #188954 by bachfiend on June 5, 2008 at 3:13 am

Yeah, right, Evolution can't explain the Cambrian "explosion", which occurred from 600 to 520 million years ago, over a period of 80 million years, and in which the number of recorded genera had dropped by the middle Cambrian (see page 168, "Evolution, What the Fossils Say..." by Donald Prothero.

Other Comments by bachfiend

39. Comment #188956 by Raiko on June 5, 2008 at 3:16 am

 avatar1) IF the ID movement still insists on teaching 'weaknesses' on evolution, teachers must be carefully monitored to be teaching actual weaknesses and not made up ones. That's the main problem biologically educated people have with the weakness idea. It's not about whether-or-not alleged weaknesses should be taught, it's whether what is being taught ARE actual weaknesses of evolution. Which leads to the next problem with the entire idea:

2) Teaching the 'weaknesses' of evolution is inappropriate for a classroom because the 'weaknesses' are so specific that they do not fit into the regular school schedule - not beyond the fact that like any scientific theory, evolution is being under constant debate, especially in details. A mere mentioning of the "punctuated equilibrium" is as far as it would get before the next subject needs to be taught. Speicific debates are not for classrooms, unless the students aren't supposed to learn anything else about science but become evolution-experts.

Other Comments by Raiko

40. Comment #188960 by notsobad on June 5, 2008 at 3:32 am

 avatar
teaching of biological and chemical evolution

Sorry, did I miss something ? Chemical evolution ?

In short, the Big Bang didn't produce all 116/117 elements we know today.

Other Comments by notsobad

41. Comment #188962 by Peribolos on June 5, 2008 at 3:38 am

 avatarWell put on both Raiko. If students want to learn about 'weaknesses' in the theory of evolution they should go to University and study the life sciences. At school level it's ridiculous to suggest children are going to get more than a superficial glance at the theory, that superficial glance will not be helped by allowing teachers to mention the bible as an alternative textbook.

Other Comments by Peribolos

42. Comment #188992 by Szymanowski on June 5, 2008 at 6:49 am

 avatarDoh - thanks notsobad, that's more likely to be what they mean by "chemical evolution" isn't it!

Other Comments by Szymanowski

43. Comment #188999 by clunkclickeverytrip on June 5, 2008 at 7:30 am

I'm sure the good Doc is an excellent dentist - it's a distraction to suggest otherwise. Societies worldwide are full of highly functioning people contributing in effective ways, but at the same time being delusional with respect to their belief in a supernatural creator.
This dichotomy is a result of religious indoctination in childhood. This is why the schools are the place where kids must find out the whole truth about how life on Earth came about - anything less and the imbalance between religious indoctrination by parents on one hand and "full disclosure" in the schools (up to and including the fact that there is no supernatural creator) on the other hand results in delusional adults - this is the current situation globally.

Other Comments by clunkclickeverytrip

44. Comment #189009 by Dhamma on June 5, 2008 at 7:56 am

 avatarHmm... This quote from the site made me feel they were not very serious "It[Expelled] has received almost universally positive reviews, is in the "Top Ten" of all current movies in revenue, and is in the top three of all documentaries of all time for the opening weekend. Only devout Darwinists and their willing accomplices in the media seem to be negative."

"almost universally positive reviews"? So the objective review-site Rotten tomatoes have only found reviews from darwinists? 9% positive reviews isn't exactly "almost universally positive reviews".. I'd say "definitely universally negative reviews"... Idiots!

Other Comments by Dhamma

45. Comment #189012 by ridelo on June 5, 2008 at 7:59 am

Come to think of it. Why not also discuss the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics in physics class? Also a scientific 'weakness'. There ought to be more of such weaknesses in science. Let's see...
I suppose you're going to be about 50 before going to university.

Other Comments by ridelo

46. Comment #189015 by mixmastergaz on June 5, 2008 at 8:01 am

 avatarSmartLX:-

Here in the UK one constantly hears talk of the, ahem, "unique British sense of fair-play".

No, it's not just Americans and Australians...

Other Comments by mixmastergaz

47. Comment #189019 by BW022 on June 5, 2008 at 8:05 am

One thing which is never mentioned and often not considered by lawmakers is that something doesn't have to be right or perfect to be taught.

You don't qualify everything that you teach. You provide the best explanation within the student's ability to understand. In many cases, what you teach is not 100% correct, but only offered within the student's current ability to understand.

For example, imagine teaching Newton's Laws. Well, they are wrong. We know it. We could disprove it by showing that the force affects massless particles (relativity) and we can prove that forces are in fact particles via quantum mechanics/atomic theory.

However, we are dealing with 8th graders here. The won't get relativity until 12th grade (maybe) and quantum mechanics until well into university. We don't stop at each point and go over all the problems, since you need to know a heck of a lot before you can reasonably discuss by Newton's laws break down when dealing with say gravity affecting light.

Same with evolution. Until you go through genetics, cell biology, reproductive biology, etc. how can you start talking about whether X or Y is an issue with evolution? You can't. The students simply don't understand enough to participate in the discussion. So you don't point out issues. You give them the best answer at the time and they go with it until they have to tools to go back and look at specific issues with any specific theory.

Other Comments by BW022

48. Comment #189024 by Tyler Durden on June 5, 2008 at 8:16 am

 avatar
Opponents of Gravity Adopting a New Strategy
Do they not see how silly they look?

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

49. Comment #189027 by j.mills on June 5, 2008 at 8:21 am

 avatarWeaknesses in evolutionary theory? By all means give students an overview of the debate around punctuated equilibrium, or whether there is any meaningful form of group selection other than kin selection. It's a bit advanced and time-consuming for high school, especially if you also apply the policy to gravity, quantum, religious studies, etc. But I've no objection in principle.

Or am I missing something? [Innocent blink.] Is that not what they meant? Did they mean, some christians would prefer this not to be true? 'Cause I've gotta think that's not really a weakness of evolutionary theory, more a weakness of reasoning among those christians.

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50. Comment #189050 by Alkal on June 5, 2008 at 9:33 am

yes, lets also have the strengths( none) and weaknesses( not healing amputees, prayer not working, genocide, discrimnation, women being inferior, slavery, 6 days too short etc etc etc etc etc) of the ID/creationist point of view..

Evolution, you know it happens. not teaching it is not going to make it any less true. I am so hopping mad right now.


I will send my kids when I have em to public school and give em The Selfish Gene to read- no better way to show em what kind of bull crap( excuse the strong language)a perverted belief in a Bronze Age bigot leads you to. Actually it is something that they need a lesson in early enough...

Not believe in evolution Hah....

I mean what is the other side"Goddit" that doe s not have "gaps".....


Let us begin an underground "Teach Science" ... it has been done in oppressed nations before...

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