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A word for nonbelievers
by David O'Reilly, Philadelpha Inquirer
Billboard on I-95 reaches out to atheists in the region.
With its image of blue sky and fluffy clouds, the rectangle floating lately over I-95 near Allegheny Avenue suggests something dreamy, almost heavenly.
At least from a distance.
Drivers headed north toward the giant billboard might first discern the words God and Believe and suppose this to be the work of a fundamentalist church.
Steve Rade, the Huntingdon Valley businessman who donated the money to put up the billboard, which is along I-95 near the Allegheny Avenue exit. "Our mission is not to convince fundamentalists to change their position," he says.
But this is the work of no church.
"Don't believe in God?" it asks. "You are not alone."
Think of it as a sign of the times.
Mounted by a consortium of local atheists, it is an invitation to the area's atheists, agnostics, skeptics, rationalists and religious freethinkers (no one label fits them all) to overcome their differences and form a coalition.
"Hundreds of thousands of your neighbors in the Delaware Valley feel the same as you do," according to the Web site www.phillyCOR.org, to which the billboard directs passing motorists.
"Our mission is not to convince fundamentalists to change their position," Steve Rade, a Huntingdon Valley businessman, said last week. He donated the $22,500 needed to mount the billboard, which appeared May 1 and is to remain until the end of August.
"What we want to do is give people questioning their beliefs a place to go for more information and to meet like-minded people."
No horns poke through Rade's wiry gray hair. He is tall and bony, quick to laugh, and dressed for the office - he is president of Wireless Accessories Inc. - in shorts and sneakers. He has the restless energy of a teenager. He is 70.
"I'd like everyone to believe what I do," he said, referring to his "absolute certainty" that there is no divine being running the universe and no life after death. "I think it would be a better world if they did."
The son of a West Oak Lane synagogue president who insisted that his children attend Shabbat services every Saturday, Rade was bar mitzvahed at 13 and confirmed at 16. But his youthful doubts about God and supernaturalism hardened while an undergraduate at Pennsylvania State University, where he was a finance major.
"It was just my own critical, rational thinking," he said Thursday with a shrug. "I accept that the universe began with the Big Bang, but I don't believe there were snakes talking in the Garden of Eden. . . . If God shows himself to me, I'll believe."
His grand plan - organizing the region's religious skeptics - began just three months ago, when he asked the American Humanist Association in Washington how to find its local chapter.
In March, he met for dinner with Joe Fox, president of the Humanist Association of Greater Philadelphia. Fox told him that there were many atheist groups in the region, but that few communicated with one another.
"Joe saw it as a lack of focus," Rade recalled. "I saw it as disarray."
Days later, he invited Fox and the heads of seven other like-minded organizations to dinner at a Chinese restaurant and asked if they wanted to expand and unify.
They agreed to create an umbrella group called the Greater Philadelphia Coalition of Reason (PhillyCOR), and Rade agreed to pay the salary of its half-time executive director.
After that, "the idea for a billboard was easy to come by."
The 20-by-60-foot sign has generated 7,000 hits for the Web site, which offers links to such member organizations as the Humanist Association of Greater Philadelphia, the Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia, Philadelphia Atheists Meetup, and the Secular Society of Temple University.
The sign's original, geographically limited toll-free phone number generated only about 300 calls, however. The new number, 1-877-99HUMANIST, is reachable from any area code.
A recording describes PhillyCOR as a "local free thought group" for "those without supernatural beliefs."
"I'm so appreciative of Steve," Sally Cramer, president of the 300-member Freethought Society, said Friday. "I love the message. I'm really pleased we're able to be a part of this."
At age 24, she has no way to know if it is easier for today's atheists to be "out of the closet," but she said she had encountered hostility. The mother of a previous boyfriend "wouldn't talk to me when she found out I'm an atheist," she said.
No one knows how many American adults identify themselves as being in the atheist spectrum, but surveys suggest between 4 percent and 9 percent, the lowest of any industrialized nation.
Fred Edwords, spokesman for the roughly 10,000-member American Humanist Association, said he thought it was easier for atheists and agnostics to be public than in previous decades.
"In the 1980s, people were saying we're part of a great conspiracy, trying to take over the schools and courts."
The recent spate of best-sellers bearing such titles as The God Delusion, God Is Not Great and The End of Faith suggests a broader public interest in religious skepticism, Edwords said. "But we still feel we're the last minority group it's OK to say bad things about."
Also on Pharyngula.
With its image of blue sky and fluffy clouds, the rectangle floating lately over I-95 near Allegheny Avenue suggests something dreamy, almost heavenly.
At least from a distance.
Drivers headed north toward the giant billboard might first discern the words God and Believe and suppose this to be the work of a fundamentalist church.
Steve Rade, the Huntingdon Valley businessman who donated the money to put up the billboard, which is along I-95 near the Allegheny Avenue exit. "Our mission is not to convince fundamentalists to change their position," he says.
But this is the work of no church.
"Don't believe in God?" it asks. "You are not alone."
Think of it as a sign of the times.
Mounted by a consortium of local atheists, it is an invitation to the area's atheists, agnostics, skeptics, rationalists and religious freethinkers (no one label fits them all) to overcome their differences and form a coalition.
"Hundreds of thousands of your neighbors in the Delaware Valley feel the same as you do," according to the Web site www.phillyCOR.org, to which the billboard directs passing motorists.
"Our mission is not to convince fundamentalists to change their position," Steve Rade, a Huntingdon Valley businessman, said last week. He donated the $22,500 needed to mount the billboard, which appeared May 1 and is to remain until the end of August.
"What we want to do is give people questioning their beliefs a place to go for more information and to meet like-minded people."
No horns poke through Rade's wiry gray hair. He is tall and bony, quick to laugh, and dressed for the office - he is president of Wireless Accessories Inc. - in shorts and sneakers. He has the restless energy of a teenager. He is 70.
"I'd like everyone to believe what I do," he said, referring to his "absolute certainty" that there is no divine being running the universe and no life after death. "I think it would be a better world if they did."
The son of a West Oak Lane synagogue president who insisted that his children attend Shabbat services every Saturday, Rade was bar mitzvahed at 13 and confirmed at 16. But his youthful doubts about God and supernaturalism hardened while an undergraduate at Pennsylvania State University, where he was a finance major.
"It was just my own critical, rational thinking," he said Thursday with a shrug. "I accept that the universe began with the Big Bang, but I don't believe there were snakes talking in the Garden of Eden. . . . If God shows himself to me, I'll believe."
His grand plan - organizing the region's religious skeptics - began just three months ago, when he asked the American Humanist Association in Washington how to find its local chapter.
In March, he met for dinner with Joe Fox, president of the Humanist Association of Greater Philadelphia. Fox told him that there were many atheist groups in the region, but that few communicated with one another.
"Joe saw it as a lack of focus," Rade recalled. "I saw it as disarray."
Days later, he invited Fox and the heads of seven other like-minded organizations to dinner at a Chinese restaurant and asked if they wanted to expand and unify.
They agreed to create an umbrella group called the Greater Philadelphia Coalition of Reason (PhillyCOR), and Rade agreed to pay the salary of its half-time executive director.
After that, "the idea for a billboard was easy to come by."
The 20-by-60-foot sign has generated 7,000 hits for the Web site, which offers links to such member organizations as the Humanist Association of Greater Philadelphia, the Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia, Philadelphia Atheists Meetup, and the Secular Society of Temple University.
The sign's original, geographically limited toll-free phone number generated only about 300 calls, however. The new number, 1-877-99HUMANIST, is reachable from any area code.
A recording describes PhillyCOR as a "local free thought group" for "those without supernatural beliefs."
"I'm so appreciative of Steve," Sally Cramer, president of the 300-member Freethought Society, said Friday. "I love the message. I'm really pleased we're able to be a part of this."
At age 24, she has no way to know if it is easier for today's atheists to be "out of the closet," but she said she had encountered hostility. The mother of a previous boyfriend "wouldn't talk to me when she found out I'm an atheist," she said.
No one knows how many American adults identify themselves as being in the atheist spectrum, but surveys suggest between 4 percent and 9 percent, the lowest of any industrialized nation.
Fred Edwords, spokesman for the roughly 10,000-member American Humanist Association, said he thought it was easier for atheists and agnostics to be public than in previous decades.
"In the 1980s, people were saying we're part of a great conspiracy, trying to take over the schools and courts."
The recent spate of best-sellers bearing such titles as The God Delusion, God Is Not Great and The End of Faith suggests a broader public interest in religious skepticism, Edwords said. "But we still feel we're the last minority group it's OK to say bad things about."
Also on Pharyngula.
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Posted: Friday, June 6, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 134 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #189651 by JeremyH on June 6, 2008 at 10:31 pm
I hope the creationists are beginning to fear us. We are something to be feared. It's great that such an important group of people are finally demanding to be seen and heard. Other Comments by JeremyH
3. Comment #189652 by mordacious1 on June 6, 2008 at 10:31 pm
That guy's 70? Being an atheist can keep you lookin' good.I'd put guards on that sign though.
Other Comments by mordacious1
4. Comment #189653 by dr joneZ on June 6, 2008 at 10:33 pm
Any Australian atheists willing to start up a coalition of non-believers? Get in touch with me. If atheism is ever to have a "cash-value" we need to get organised globally. This is a great development. Other Comments by dr joneZ
5. Comment #189654 by mordacious1 on June 6, 2008 at 10:34 pm
The guy has the right idea...organize atheists and other non-believers...but it is like herding cats. In fact, it's like herding cats being chased by Appleby.Other Comments by mordacious1
6. Comment #189655 by Lucas on June 6, 2008 at 10:35 pm
Well done. This is what we should all be doing. Let's do it! Other Comments by Lucas
7. Comment #189658 by mordacious1 on June 6, 2008 at 10:42 pm
Free Thought Radio has a nice "Imagine No Religion" billboard that they've designed and is available to anyone who wants to pay for the placement. You save on designing the ad that way. $22,500 seems steep for a couple of months (probably because it's on the interstate in an urban area).Other Comments by mordacious1
8. Comment #189659 by JuxtaMonkey on June 6, 2008 at 10:43 pm
JeremyH,Why should we be feared again? I don't think creationist need to fear atheist's at all...not trying to be rude but let me switch creationists to another word..."I hope the school children are beginning to fear us. We are something to be feared." It almost sounds terrorizing. In fact, I believe they DO fear atheist--and why shouldn't they if your message is the one they hear? I know it is frustrating dealing with irrational people and even more so when you reap the consequences but creationist will never learn if it is a battle to the death...per say. Again, I apologize if my directness comes off a bit rude.
Other Comments by JuxtaMonkey
9. Comment #189660 by catskill on June 6, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Phew! Finally one story here that does not make me cringe. I cant drive more than two blocks here in Tampa without passing by a church. I got a flyer yesterday for a new church that just opened up the street. An old supermarket site that was purchased for 7.5 million. (Below market value, just for the Jesus freaks). They are proud to teach the literal truth of the Bible. Classes start for children at the kindergarten level, and a special program for teens. They make me sick.
Other Comments by catskill
10. Comment #189661 by Overmann on June 6, 2008 at 10:56 pm
Oh, wow. That phrase is remarkably similar to what my atheist group has on its T-shirt. Front side: 'You don't believe in God?' Back side: 'You are not alone,' and of course a link to our site. Corpus Christi Atheists in Corpus Christi, Texas, by the way.Other Comments by Overmann
11. Comment #189662 by mordacious1 on June 6, 2008 at 10:56 pm
JuxtaMonkeyDon't worry about being rude on this site, you have no idea how we get. You were very polite btw.
I don't think we should try to get the fundies to fear us, but they do, we stand against everything they believe in. No one wants to find out that there is no Santa. My son is dating a girl with fundie parents, if they find out he's an atheist, he's toast. They think atheists have the plague or something, in league with satan, evil, it's very sad.
Other Comments by mordacious1
12. Comment #189663 by JuxtaMonkey on June 6, 2008 at 11:15 pm
mordacious1,LOL! I use to keep that I was atheist to myself and called the natural world "God". People thought I was a little weird but I never had problems. Then I decided to "come-out". Now, I get puzzled looks. I don't think I have ever been personally equated to the mythological satan, at least in person, but people always assume I am christian because I am such a "sweet, nice, genuine, caring, girl!" I know the look of an uprooted reality and that makes me feel good! It makes people have to deal with the dissonance in their head about atheists. As time goes on, a few people have told me that they have changed their way of thinking and though the behavior changed seen is small and they still want me to "get saved" I feel I have EARNED respect for myself and for other atheists. Though, I don't know any other atheists...lol
Other Comments by JuxtaMonkey
13. Comment #189664 by Quine on June 6, 2008 at 11:17 pm
"Coalition of Reason" I like that. Other Comments by Quine
14. Comment #189665 by HitbLade on June 6, 2008 at 11:40 pm
So when are they gonna cut it down? I mean, It's clearly the work of Satan!Other Comments by HitbLade
15. Comment #189666 by robotaholic on June 6, 2008 at 11:41 pm
they sooooooooooooo totally only fear us because we HAVE SOMETHING! Other Comments by robotaholic
16. Comment #189668 by sb84 on June 6, 2008 at 11:56 pm
What's next? Study groups for The Selfish Gene? I thought atheism was all about making up your own mind. I think this interpretation of atheism is, at its core, religious."What we want to do is give people questioning their beliefs a place to go for more information and to meet like-minded people."
Right, because free thought really depends on meeting like-minded people. This is the kind of religion I mean.
ps. I say this as a non-religious atheist.
Other Comments by sb84
17. Comment #189673 by dr joneZ on June 7, 2008 at 12:34 am
"A non-religious atheist" - that must be some new kind of belief system none of us have heard of?What are the core assumptions of your belief system?
Other Comments by dr joneZ
18. Comment #189675 by sb84 on June 7, 2008 at 12:48 am
@dr joneZ: I think you've heard of it. I do not believe in any god and I do not believe that religious faith benefits the world.When reading this article, I had a very strong feeling that this particular free thinker was advocating a religious approach to atheism: joining groups, holding hands, keeping the faith strong. That troubles me. Atheism doesn't need any of that, and it only helps people who claim "atheism is just another religion". No, it's not, although some people are trying hard...
Of course I can't judge the intent of this particular man based on one article (that may be full of misquotations).
Edit: I totally agree with JuxtaMonkey by the way.
Other Comments by sb84
19. Comment #189676 by dr joneZ on June 7, 2008 at 12:56 am
I had a very strong feeling that this particular free thinker was advocating a religious approach to atheismOK - maybe you feel that people of like mind who form action groups and become militant on the basis of shared beliefs and assumptions are performing ritual activities redolent of religion? You could have a point but unless atheists at least touch base with each other, how are they going to derive the all-important shared strength of banding in numbers?
Other Comments by dr joneZ
20. Comment #189677 by Tumara Baap on June 7, 2008 at 1:04 am
This is a real problem ... I don't understand why atheists are so splintered. Granted there are differences in meaning between atheists, secular humanists, skeptics etc, but they really do comprise of individuals with remarkably similar world views. I think the term "freethinkers" is broad and all encompassing enough for all to unite under. FFRF is an excellent umbrella organization to start with. I respect the independent streak of many a heathen but our views count for nothing without political organization.I'm personally a lifetime member at FFRF. I cherish the sense of community with other rationalists and find its newsletters and broadcasts very intellectually enriching. Any accusation of such membership as another form religion is a silly and hollow charge ... I'm a member of several others, from Union of Concerned Scientists to Sierra Club, all with a sense of purpose that benefits immensely from organization and political savvy. There is absolutely no reason why non-believers should not coordinate themselves likewise.
Other Comments by Tumara Baap
21. Comment #189682 by Goldy on June 7, 2008 at 1:16 am
Can't for the life of me imagine a sign like that appearing in Europe or New Zealand (I sometimes wonder about Australia - Brian, you'll educate me!). Long may it remain so! :-)
I don't understand why atheists are so splintered
Because the only thing linking us is a lack of belief in gods. A bit like saying all humans have two eyes, so they should all act the same. Doesn't work that way. We love splintering because we all have our own ideas of how things should be, ideas which the rest don't agree with.
Other Comments by Goldy
22. Comment #189683 by dr joneZ on June 7, 2008 at 1:20 am
I appreciate that atheists hesitate to clump together because that ALWAYS looks like small-minded types trying to augment their self-importance by sharing the burden of intellectual wankery. However, the CAUSE of atheism is important enough to short-circuit that style of thinking in favour of a "fight fire with fire" manifesto which may just pull all the lurkers and armchair enthusiasts out of their lethargy. The biggest problem is with the term itself. Why do we need a term like this to describe people who DO NOT believe something? It would make sense only in a world where the vast majority were believers. It is by no means clear that that is the case. Most atheists just "sit it out" and tolerate the religious wankers just in order to keep the peace. Well - that time is past. If people think that militant atheism will start a ruckus then so be it. We have World Youth Day bearing down on us here in Ausatralia and it is saddening to say that no atheist organisation in this country (to my knowledge) has mounted a protest against this puerile parade of Catholic back-slapping debauchery. Only by playing the numbers game does atheism (that funny word) have ANY chance of success ("cash value" - William James' term) in this foul "imaginary friend-dominated world". Other Comments by dr joneZ
23. Comment #189685 by Titania on June 7, 2008 at 1:26 am
JuxtaMonkey:
I ordered a plant to be delivered this week to the funeral home for a friend's father. When I got to the funeral home and looked for the plant, I found that the florist had inserted a large plastic angel into the arrangement. I live in the American South where it is assumed that everyone is Christian. I called the florist and the woman told me they thought I would be pleased with their upgrade of my purchase! I informed her that I would never have chosen an arrangement that contained such an ornament and that they should NOT ASSUME that I would want to convey a Christian condolence. She had never heard a complaint like mine before; but she promised the florist would stop their "upgrades" of this nature. Being a part of the atheist community on this site inspired me to speak up when I would not have done so before. It is not easy being an atheist in such a Christian region. It's inspiring to read about the Philly freethinkers joining forces.
Other Comments by Titania
24. Comment #189686 by clearthinker on June 7, 2008 at 1:34 am
"they sooooooooooooo totally only fear us because we HAVE SOMETHING!'I must be missing something. Is it not the oft repeated mantra that atheists do not have a creed; that atheism is just simply the lack of belief in God; that atheists come from many different backgrounds and have many different beliefs so that the only thing that unites you is the lack of belief? Then how can you have something? And what is this something - that all atheists have and others do not have? And why feel the need to organise, evangelise and behave like a religion? And why set up a website espousing atheist beliefs if there are no atheist beliefs? Surely if the only belief is the negative one of there being no God - it must get pretty boring? Unless of course - atheism is actually a religious/philosophical belief system - with its own need for support groups, self congratulatory sychophants and demonisation of oppenants. Well thankfully RD net will never go down the route of exploiting peoples fears by selling t-shirts, books and marketing slogans!
Other Comments by clearthinker
25. Comment #189689 by epeeist on June 7, 2008 at 1:47 am
Comment #189686 by clearthinkerI must be missing something. Is it not the oft repeated mantra that atheists do not have a creed; that atheism is just simply the lack of belief in God; that atheists come from many different backgrounds and have many different beliefs so that the only thing that unites you is the lack of belief?Ah, I see clearthinker has arrived to claim that atheism is, at heart, just another belief system. At least this time he doesn't appear to be claiming that we are fundamentalists.
What he has claimed in the past are that there are tenets to this atheist faith. However, despite much prompting he has never really been able to give a definitive list of these tenets.
Other Comments by epeeist
26. Comment #189691 by Steve Zara on June 7, 2008 at 1:54 am
Comment #189686 by clearthinkerHello David.
And why feel the need to organise, evangelise and behave like a religion? And why set up a website espousing atheist beliefs if there are no atheist beliefs?
Last time I read the description of this site it was about "clear thinking" and "rationality". Didn't see any requirement for atheism.
However, perhaps, being of queer orientation, I can explain to you why someone with, in principle, no creed, and no belief would want to organise.
I have no "gay creed". I have no "gay belief". I am not anti-straight. All I want to do is to live my life unharrassed, and my empathy for others means I want to ensure that anyone who is gay can share that freedom.
In societies where religion is dominant and dominating, it is common that homosexuality is considered terribly naughty and preachers and bishops attempt to limit the rights of people like me. The disappointing thing is that governments sometimes listen, even though the only justifications given to support such views are "it's wrong because it's wrong" and "a little God whispered that it is wrong in my ear".
So, you see, people without a creed or dogma can have enough reason to organise against mainstream religion even if they don't consider themselves atheists.
Atheism isn't the only view some of us have, you see. Some of us don't want religious busybodies interfering with government, preaching morality based on nothing more than gut feeling and old books. We want societies to be based on reason and rationality, where people have to not keep saying "it's what God wants" as justification for anything (unless they can demonstrate the existence of that God first - surely a reasonable request?).
As for claiming that "atheists" behave like a religion. Well, some do. They are called Buddhists.
Still, the atheist religion is going to have problems. Unlike you we can't get guidance from invisible beings, as our non-gods clearly don't think us special enough to non-talk to us.
(The difference between an atheist and a believer is that the absence of God doesn't talk to atheists).
Other Comments by Steve Zara
27. Comment #189693 by dr joneZ on June 7, 2008 at 1:59 am
Excellent thinking, Steve. Indeed, atheists are the New Homosexuals - at least in terms of their profile with the god-bothering majority(?)It's time for atheists to "come out of the closet" in the way that gays did in the 70s. That's all we are doing by getting together; we are just recognising that our numbers are far larger than any one of us as individuals had ever imagined. That's not religion - that's ENLIGHTENMENT
Other Comments by dr joneZ
28. Comment #189695 by King of NH on June 7, 2008 at 2:20 am
I think atheists need to begin to unite also. The 'herding cats' is a description, not a prescription. If theists regain what they have lost and prevent further secularizing, then what? Atheists have some of the greatest thinkers alive today on our side and we're tickled pink by the great advance in our cause, a billboard. I mean, how sad is that? Don't get me wrong, it's great that they put it up, but is that really the best we can do? We should get geneticists to modify human DNA so it makes a sign on everyone's forehead: "made by whoopy, not god!" Other Comments by King of NH
29. Comment #189700 by AllanW on June 7, 2008 at 2:40 am
Tumara Baap;'This is a real problem ... I don't understand why atheists are so splintered.'
I'll take that one as it touched upon the normal dreck that clearthinker/David Robertson keeps dredging up.
Atheism or agnosticism is a position about one aspect of our lives and no other. We are united in our lack of belief. Yet apart from that and depending upon how much that lack of belief dominates your life compared to work issues, family issues, health, politics, local government and neighbour issues, atheists and agnostics exemplify the full spectrum of positions and beliefs on these other issues.
To be clear, there are fascist through to Marxist atheists, healthy through to unhealthy atheists, socially adjusted through to non-socially adjusted atheists, working through to non-working atheists etc
While we take the same position as regards belief in gods that does not mean we think alike on all the other issues. There may be some tendency to be socially tolerant of minorities but I can think of many counter examples, there may be a tendency to be left-leaning politically but I can think of many counter-examples etc
It's why atheism is NOT a belief system; we exhibit a vast range of beliefs and positions apart from religious within the set of atheists or agnostics.
As for Robertson, passed any dud cheques lately?
Other Comments by AllanW
30. Comment #189718 by cafeeine on June 7, 2008 at 3:36 am
The main unaddressed argument permeating this discussion is I think that organizing, speaking out, promoting a view (or its religious synonym 'evangelizing') are all things that solely characterize religion. If a bunch of atheists decide to hold a bingo night, they are not performing a religious activity just because churches have been doing it for years.Gathering together is a social calling, not a religious one. Talking about the positions one holds is not a characteristic of the religious. Recognizing that because if a single position we hold, the lack of belief in gods, we are treated as a single front by the religious and therefore we should discuss this as a group is also not forming a religion.
This is the same kind of brouhaha that I recall this Christmas, when pr. Dawkins went to church to enjoy the music. Religion is characterized by its own tenets and beliefs, its exclusive services. not the social activities it has co-opted, and forming atheist groups is no more a religious activity then singing is.
Other Comments by cafeeine
31. Comment #189719 by Grumpy Max on June 7, 2008 at 3:40 am
Am I alone in finding the idea of atheists being "the new homosexuals" overblown?I've been an atheist since I was 11. I went to a (nominally) Christian school in England. I didn't meet anyone (except for street preachers) who openly avowed Christianity until I got to university. I found the born-agains perfectly nice although easily ostracised by the overwhelming majority of the other students. Never in my life have I felt victimised as an atheist.
Now, I understand that in America things are different and there are plenty of thickos who will wish not to associate with you if you're an atheist. But is it really anything close to the sorts of problems being gay would historically bring? Are atheists losing their jobs, being denied adoption rights, being denied visiting rights to their children, being beaten? Is there a need for an atheist Stonewall? Can anyone point me to the atheist Matthew Shepherd?
Please don't think I'm suggesting that gay "victimhood" is of protected status- that sort of thinking is reductive and precious and belittling. But I think a bit of perspective is in order.
Other Comments by Grumpy Max
32. Comment #189722 by Steve Zara on June 7, 2008 at 3:56 am
Comment #189719 by Grumpy MaxI think you have a point.
I don't think the real battle should be about atheism anyway. It is the wrong label to apply for the general point of view I believe most people here support.
I don't promote "atheism". I promote "reason". What I am after is people to justify public statements about matters of importance with logic and evidence. I don't believe faith, tradition, or culture should be used as such justification simply because they are faith, tradition, or culture.
One finds considerable opposition to promoting "reason" in public discourse, I have found (someone in a thread actually called this "intellectual bullying"). But, when one thinks about it, how else are we to manage our societies fairly? The alternatives include listening to those who threaten, or shout the loudest, or just to go along with the majority because they are the majority.
An analogy I have used elsewhere is that we already use reason in places where we feel things really matter. In court cases we don't usually accept statements like "I have been vouchsafed a deep inner conviction of the accused's guilt" as evidence. It seems odd, therefore, that we should accept the religious views of Bishops and preachers when we discuss other matters of importance, such as gay rights.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
33. Comment #189725 by Obecalp on June 7, 2008 at 4:15 am
Great points, Steve!Would love to read a reply from 'clearthinker' - the only 'queer' person here, if you ask me.
Other Comments by Obecalp
34. Comment #189726 by Vaal on June 7, 2008 at 4:21 am
33. Comment #189725 by ObecalpWould love to read a reply from 'clearthinker'
Really? I think I would rather hang by my testicles in the garden than have to listen to another essay of befuddled mental gymnastics by Mr Robertson.
Other Comments by Vaal
35. Comment #189728 by Dinah on June 7, 2008 at 4:28 am
Re: Comment #189718 by cafeeineReligion is characterized by its own tenets and beliefs, its exclusive services, not the social activities it has co-opted, and forming atheist groups is no more a religious activity than singing is
Absolutely. One reason why Christianity has survived for as long as it has is that it has been particularly good at forming and maintaining social networks, so that people who attend church feel part of an extended family. I once knew a woman in her sixties who was out every night attending some church activity or other, and I made some remark to her on the lines that she must have a very strong faith. Her reply was 'Don't believe a word of it m'dear, but where else can a female of my age on a small pension have a full social life for practically nothing?'
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36. Comment #189729 by Branko on June 7, 2008 at 4:38 am
Organising free thinkers ? RD says it's like herding cats. I genuinely wish them good luck. I suppose a good point about all this is that we might get a better picture of how many free thinkers there are out there and organised groups (however loosely organised) are less easy to ignore or push around.Other Comments by Branko
37. Comment #189730 by epeeist on June 7, 2008 at 5:10 am
Comment #189722 by Steve ZaraI don't promote "atheism". I promote "reason".To invert that, the thing I promote is lack of deference. The religious are fully entitled to their beliefs, but as soon as they make claims as to the way the world and its people came into existence, to the historicity of its holy books or to the validity of it ethical position and tries to present these as true, justified belief which the rest of society should accept and conform to then they must show that these are valid.
The time for the automatic acceptance of the position of religion in society has gone. It should justify itself in exactly the same way as politicians, historians, scientists and philosophers have to.
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38. Comment #189732 by Steve Zara on June 7, 2008 at 5:24 am
Comment #189730 by epeeist To invert that, the thing I promote is lack of deference.
I don't think that is enough. One can say that people should have to justify claims, but one also, I feel, has to provide a foundation for how claims are justified. We need an equivalent of the Queensbury Rules for public disagreements and debates.
As far as I know, good legal systems are based on reason. They aren't just after fairness (as implied by lack of deference), they are after truth.
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39. Comment #189733 by Barry Pearson on June 7, 2008 at 5:31 am
I propose an alternative way of thinking about this. Religious practices are hobbies. (Can anyone here identify in what way they are not hobbies? Other than they are not in the typical list of hobbies). And, in fact, it is when religious people try to claim more privileges than other hobbies have that we tend to object.
Simply being an atheist isn't a hobby. (Just as believing in god isn't a hobby, and thinking about stamps isn't a hobby). It is the practise that is a hobby.
I think that it would be acceptable to say that PRACTISING atheism (whatever that means) is a hobby. (But NOT that it is a religion; all religious practices are hobbies, but not all hobbies are religious practices). What does practising atheism entail? Perhaps some or all of: joining a society; meeting other people (physically or online) and swapping ideas; spending some time and some money doing these things?
What does that say about all of us here?
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40. Comment #189736 by Quetzalcoatl on June 7, 2008 at 5:51 am
Obecalp-
Would love to read a reply from 'clearthinker' - the only 'queer' person here, if you ask me
Not going to happen. The illustrious David Robertson now confines himself to making hit and run comments in which he merely repeats all his old favourite claims without bothering with something as insignificant as substantiating them.
Clearthinker-
as you might have guessed, I am unsurprised by the quality of your latest "contribution" to the site. Although I must applaud you for not using the phrase "atheist fundamentalists". I don't suppose you'd care to list atheist tenets and beliefs in the meantime?
-Deafening silence-
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41. Comment #189737 by Richard Morgan on June 7, 2008 at 5:51 am
Vaal : I think I would rather hang by my testicles in the garden.
I'd be fascinated to learn how you know.
Some of you guys have the most exotic pass-times!
My warm wishes to all my friends AND the others.
http://www.myspace.com/morgansoriginals
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42. Comment #189738 by Steve Zara on June 7, 2008 at 5:56 am
Seen on another site : "One of the core atheist beliefs is that they do not have core atheist beliefs."
Yep.
Oh come off it. I have plenty of core beliefs, and so do, I am sure, most people here. They are the core beliefs of most decent people. Atheism has nothing to do with it.
The issue is whether or not those core beliefs can be, or are, derived from atheism.
They can't be. Atheism is a privative. One can however, have beliefs about atheism (such as that one should have the right to use the label without being oppressed).
Most people I know who don't believe don't even think much about their lack of belief.
One might have hoped that the time you were on this site would have revealed the absurdity of generalisations like this. Clearly not. I find that sad.
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43. Comment #189740 by epeeist on June 7, 2008 at 5:59 am
Comment #189732 by Steve ZaraI don't think that is enough. One can say that people should have to justify claims, but one also, I feel, has to provide a foundation for how claims are justified. We need an equivalent of the Queensbury Rules for public disagreements and debates.Justification is the critical element. It is something that the religious have not had to do at the foundations before, there may have been disputes over interpretation of scripture and arguments over whether the host is actually transubstantiated during mass. However, the basic acceptance of "God" was always a given.
What the religious have to realise is that when the tenets of their beliefs are challenged then the response that "because that is what it says in our holy book" or "because that is what I believe" will no longer gain the automatic deference that it used to.
Given that they no longer can rely on their base position or the automatic deference the religious are going to struggle to justify their position. As such the only things they can do are to give up many of the properties of their god and holy book or actively seek to undermine the position of reason and rationality.
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44. Comment #189742 by Appleby on June 7, 2008 at 6:01 am
Well what do you know... you don't need a Ph.D. to not believe in God.Other Comments by Appleby
45. Comment #189746 by black wolf on June 7, 2008 at 6:14 am
epeeist,they can also crank up the volume and convince the inclined masses by shouting at them. I hope it's not a case of 'the more things change, the more things stay the same'.
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46. Comment #189747 by SPS on June 7, 2008 at 6:30 am
If I were not a cat worshiper and yet find myself surrounded by cat worshipers, and the cat worshipers had undue influence on the society around me, I might find myself seeking the solace of non-cat worshipers, regardless of what else we might have in common. The reason people gather can be related to a person's views in contrast to those around them. Gathering is not a religious thing. It's a human thing. Gathering is not prohibited by one's atheism just like not gathering is not a rule of atheism. It's like calling a christian a pagan because they have a christmas tree.By the way, if anyone is interested, Religulous has a trailer out:
http://www.apple.com/trailers/lions_gate/religulous/
http://www.slashfilm.com/2008/06/06/religulous-movie-trailer/
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47. Comment #189748 by Cartomancer on June 7, 2008 at 6:36 am
atheists are the New HomosexualsWant to be considered stylish, sophisticated and interesting by all your friends, but not too keen on sexual intercourse with members of your own gender? Ever yearned to be despised by christian fundamentalists the world over but couldn't stomach even a kiss with the hot boy across the road? Well now there's an answer - Atheism! It's the new homosexuality, and it's easier, quicker and cheaper than the old one too. No expensive skintight clothing with studs and sequins on it! No outrageous entrance fees to sweaty nightclubs in Vauxhall! No additional personal grooming requirements! In fact it could even save you money!
All you have to do is stop believing in gods. It's so simple, even a child can do it!
And it's entirely backwards-compatible with the previous version too! So if you still have a hankering for Sondheim lyrics, sing the numbers from the Rocky Horror Picture Show in the shower and spend far too long staring at topless pictures of Mitch Hewer, you don't need to change a thing! In fact you're probably an Atheist already...
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48. Comment #189750 by Apathy personified on June 7, 2008 at 6:40 am
Stories like this make me very uneasy.I call myself an athiest as a title of convenience, but it in no way gives any clue to my real beliefs or opinions (except that i don't think there's a sky mum /dad, obviously).
My problem with religion comes from the fact that a) it's philosophy and basis are flawed and lack a real base in reality (other than in the imagination of believers) and b) what the actual organisations that promote these beliefe do, how they act.
They fact is, people join these churches and become loyal to them, this then starts to blind them to the truth, tends to harden or radicalise their beliefs, not healthy for anyone. Before you say, 'Us Athiests are too smart to fall for that', think, are we really?
Mob mentality can work in many ways and i fear that sometimes the talk of mass organisation of athiests can only lead down a similar path.
I agree that politically athiests will have cause to unite, to protect the secular nature of our countries legal and political framework, etc..
but starting big organisations where only athiests go and your only non-work friends are members, is that the way people want to go? If yes, fair enough, but shutting myself off from part of the world is not for me.
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49. Comment #189753 by Steve Zara on June 7, 2008 at 6:51 am
Given that they no longer can rely on their base position or the automatic deference the religious are going to struggle to justify their position. As such the only things they can do are to give up many of the properties of their god and holy book or actively seek to undermine the position of reason and rationality.
Indeed! I have seen so many attempts to undermine that position, which is kind of ironic, considering how often it is claimed that science in Western countries was inspired by Christianity.
Of course, the undermining of reason and rationality has a problem now for Christians in societies like that in the UK, as there are competing forms of irrationality. So, who gets to decide which form of irrationality gets to say what is "right"?
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50. Comment #189754 by black wolf on June 7, 2008 at 6:55 am
Great message there, Cartomancer! Or shall we call it the 'Better News'?I'm so glad I don't need to find a guy to get my share of ostracization. However, I find it hard in my part of the country to gain any attention for being an atheist. Just too many of us around here. Maybe I need to become more shrill and arrogant. Any advice, Carto?
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1. Comment #189648 by PJG on June 6, 2008 at 10:17 pm
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