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Holiday in Hellmouth
by The New Yorker
Thanks to Arthur Sanford for the link.
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2008/06/09/080609crbo_books_wood/?currentPage=all
Holiday in Hellmouth
God may be dead, but the question of why he permits suffering lives on.
by James Wood
Nietzsche said that if a human being put his ear to the heart chamber of the world and heard the roar of existence, the "innumerable shouts of pleasure and woe," he would surely break into pieces. But a newspaper, pumping its inky current of despair, might serve as well. On a single day, Thursday, May 15th, the Times contained the following. The lead article was about the earthquake in China, now estimated to have killed more than fifty thousand people. It was titled "Tiny Bodies in a Morgue, and Unspeakable Grief in China," and was accompanied by a photograph of two parents sitting next to their dead child. A story about the recent cyclone in Myanmar estimated the number of deaths at anywhere between 68,833 and 127,990. The journalist mentioned a man named Zaw Ayea, twenty-seven, who found his sister's body; his mother and two younger brothers are missing. He cannot speak: "He stares straight ahead with a strangely placid expression on his face. His friends say he has been in shock since the cyclone."
And the minor stories, on this day? At least ten people killed in a bomb attack west of Baghdad, in Abu Ghraib; a policeman killed in a bomb attack in northern Spain (probably ETA terrorists); a possible missile strike on a Pakistani border village that killed about a dozen people (this may well have been the work of an American drone); and a piece about a radical Islamic cleric, resident in Italy but "transferred," perhaps thanks to American help, by the process of "extraordinary rendition," to a jail in Egypt, where he was allegedly tortured. His wife told an Italian court, "He was tied up like he was being crucified. He was beat up, especially around his ears. He was subjected to electroshocks to many body parts."
Image subtitle: Christianity needs the concept of heaven simply to make sense of human suffering.
A large proportion of life involves our refusing to put our ear to the mundane heart chamber, lest we die from hearing "the roar which lies on the other side of silence." It is considered almost gauche to wave the flag of general suffering in other people's faces, as Dostoyevsky does repeatedly in his novels, most famously in "The Brothers Karamazov," when the rebellious Ivan confronts his pious brother Alyosha with a list of degradations, some of which Dostoyevsky had got from real accounts—Turkish soldiers tossing babies on their bayonets in front of the mothers, parents punishing their five-year-old girl for wetting her bed by locking her all night in a freezing outhouse and smearing her face with excrement.
For the lucky few, there is reason to hope that life will be a business of evenly rationed suffering: stern parents perhaps, a few humiliations at school, then a love affair or two gone wrong, maybe a marriage broken. Our parents will die, and farther off, ideally deferred, will come our own steady demise. Plenty of suffering for a life, certainly, but most of us subsist on the plausible expectation that fortune will draw a circle around that personal portion, and that the truly unbearable—murder, rape, dead children, torture, war—will remain outside the cordon. Norman Rush, in his novel "Mortals," calls this "hellmouth": "the opening up of the mouth of hell right in front of you, without warning, through no fault of your own." Without warning, and yet always feared. Job, whom God places into hellmouth to test him, knew that paradox: "For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me."
Theologians and philosophers talk about "the problem of evil," and the hygienic phrase itself bespeaks a certain distance from extreme suffering, the view from a life inside the charmed circle. They mean the classic difficulty of how we justify the existence of suffering and iniquity with belief in a God who created us, who loves us, and who providentially manages the world. The term for this justification is "theodicy," which nowadays seems a very old-fashioned exercise in turning around and around the stripped screw of theological scholastics. Still, if polls are correct, about eighty per cent of Americans ought to be engaged in such antiquarianism. Union University, in Jackson, Tennessee, might profit from intense classes in theodicy. "God protected this campus," one of the students there said, because no one was killed in the tornadoes that devastated parts of Tennessee on February 5th. Since ordinary Tennesseans were killed elsewhere that night, the logic of such shamanism is that God either did not or could not protect those unfortunates from something that the state's governor once likened to "the wrath of God."
Antique and abstract it may be, but thinking about theodicy still has the power to change lives. I know this, because it was how I began to separate myself from the somewhat austere Christian environment I grew up in. I remember the day, in my late teens, when I drew a line down the middle of a piece of paper, on one side of which I wrote my reasons for belief in God, on the other my reasons against. I can't remember the order of my negatives now, but the inefficacy of prayer was likely at the top. Here was a demonstrable case of promises made (if you have faith, you can move a mountain) but not kept (the mountain not only stays put but suddenly erupts and consumes a few villages). During my teens, two members of my parents' congregation died of cancer, despite all the prayers offered up on their behalf. When I looked at the congregants kneeling on cushions, their heads bent to touch the wooden pews, it seemed to me as if they were literally butting their heads against a palpable impossibility. And this was years before I discovered Samuel Butler's image for the inutility of prayer in his novel "The Way of All Flesh"—the bee that has strayed into a drawing room and is buzzing against the wallpaper, trying to extract nectar from one of the painted roses.
Click here to continue the article:
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2008/06/09/080609crbo_books_wood/?currentPage=all
ILLUSTRATION: BRUCE ERIC KAPLAN
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2008/06/09/080609crbo_books_wood/?currentPage=all
Holiday in Hellmouth
God may be dead, but the question of why he permits suffering lives on.
by James Wood
Nietzsche said that if a human being put his ear to the heart chamber of the world and heard the roar of existence, the "innumerable shouts of pleasure and woe," he would surely break into pieces. But a newspaper, pumping its inky current of despair, might serve as well. On a single day, Thursday, May 15th, the Times contained the following. The lead article was about the earthquake in China, now estimated to have killed more than fifty thousand people. It was titled "Tiny Bodies in a Morgue, and Unspeakable Grief in China," and was accompanied by a photograph of two parents sitting next to their dead child. A story about the recent cyclone in Myanmar estimated the number of deaths at anywhere between 68,833 and 127,990. The journalist mentioned a man named Zaw Ayea, twenty-seven, who found his sister's body; his mother and two younger brothers are missing. He cannot speak: "He stares straight ahead with a strangely placid expression on his face. His friends say he has been in shock since the cyclone."
And the minor stories, on this day? At least ten people killed in a bomb attack west of Baghdad, in Abu Ghraib; a policeman killed in a bomb attack in northern Spain (probably ETA terrorists); a possible missile strike on a Pakistani border village that killed about a dozen people (this may well have been the work of an American drone); and a piece about a radical Islamic cleric, resident in Italy but "transferred," perhaps thanks to American help, by the process of "extraordinary rendition," to a jail in Egypt, where he was allegedly tortured. His wife told an Italian court, "He was tied up like he was being crucified. He was beat up, especially around his ears. He was subjected to electroshocks to many body parts."
Image subtitle: Christianity needs the concept of heaven simply to make sense of human suffering.
A large proportion of life involves our refusing to put our ear to the mundane heart chamber, lest we die from hearing "the roar which lies on the other side of silence." It is considered almost gauche to wave the flag of general suffering in other people's faces, as Dostoyevsky does repeatedly in his novels, most famously in "The Brothers Karamazov," when the rebellious Ivan confronts his pious brother Alyosha with a list of degradations, some of which Dostoyevsky had got from real accounts—Turkish soldiers tossing babies on their bayonets in front of the mothers, parents punishing their five-year-old girl for wetting her bed by locking her all night in a freezing outhouse and smearing her face with excrement.
For the lucky few, there is reason to hope that life will be a business of evenly rationed suffering: stern parents perhaps, a few humiliations at school, then a love affair or two gone wrong, maybe a marriage broken. Our parents will die, and farther off, ideally deferred, will come our own steady demise. Plenty of suffering for a life, certainly, but most of us subsist on the plausible expectation that fortune will draw a circle around that personal portion, and that the truly unbearable—murder, rape, dead children, torture, war—will remain outside the cordon. Norman Rush, in his novel "Mortals," calls this "hellmouth": "the opening up of the mouth of hell right in front of you, without warning, through no fault of your own." Without warning, and yet always feared. Job, whom God places into hellmouth to test him, knew that paradox: "For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me."
Theologians and philosophers talk about "the problem of evil," and the hygienic phrase itself bespeaks a certain distance from extreme suffering, the view from a life inside the charmed circle. They mean the classic difficulty of how we justify the existence of suffering and iniquity with belief in a God who created us, who loves us, and who providentially manages the world. The term for this justification is "theodicy," which nowadays seems a very old-fashioned exercise in turning around and around the stripped screw of theological scholastics. Still, if polls are correct, about eighty per cent of Americans ought to be engaged in such antiquarianism. Union University, in Jackson, Tennessee, might profit from intense classes in theodicy. "God protected this campus," one of the students there said, because no one was killed in the tornadoes that devastated parts of Tennessee on February 5th. Since ordinary Tennesseans were killed elsewhere that night, the logic of such shamanism is that God either did not or could not protect those unfortunates from something that the state's governor once likened to "the wrath of God."
Antique and abstract it may be, but thinking about theodicy still has the power to change lives. I know this, because it was how I began to separate myself from the somewhat austere Christian environment I grew up in. I remember the day, in my late teens, when I drew a line down the middle of a piece of paper, on one side of which I wrote my reasons for belief in God, on the other my reasons against. I can't remember the order of my negatives now, but the inefficacy of prayer was likely at the top. Here was a demonstrable case of promises made (if you have faith, you can move a mountain) but not kept (the mountain not only stays put but suddenly erupts and consumes a few villages). During my teens, two members of my parents' congregation died of cancer, despite all the prayers offered up on their behalf. When I looked at the congregants kneeling on cushions, their heads bent to touch the wooden pews, it seemed to me as if they were literally butting their heads against a palpable impossibility. And this was years before I discovered Samuel Butler's image for the inutility of prayer in his novel "The Way of All Flesh"—the bee that has strayed into a drawing room and is buzzing against the wallpaper, trying to extract nectar from one of the painted roses.
Click here to continue the article:
http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/books/2008/06/09/080609crbo_books_wood/?currentPage=all
ILLUSTRATION: BRUCE ERIC KAPLAN
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Posted: Saturday, June 7, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 242 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #189881 by thewhitepearl on June 7, 2008 at 12:50 pm
That is a powerful article.
The examples he gave about prayer reminded me of the question; "Why won't God heal amputees".
My grandfather once made this statement to me while arguing about the personal experience of god; " Well Heather what do you have to say about the fact that one time I layed my hands on a man and prayed for him and his leg grew in my hand. Literally grew in my hand INCHES because I plead the blood of jesus christ and invoked the holy spirit..What do you have to say about that?"
If he wasn't my grandfather I prob would've slapped him in the face...I mean outside of the nasty sarcastic comments that follows whenever he brings that story up as proof (which he does quite often)..What DO you say to that? He really belives this...
Fuck the guys leg growing a few inches to save him the humility of having to walk with a slight limp, there are worse things going on in the world- but appartently god chooses to ignore those, or he is deeply misrepresented as a god. Instead a Merlin wannabe. The universes magician whose powers are weak and limited. god my foot.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
3. Comment #189884 by Nails on June 7, 2008 at 1:06 pm
The term for this justification is "theodicy," which nowadays seems a very old-fashioned exercise in turning around and around the stripped screw of theological scholastics.
Idiocracy more like.
I love the analogy of the bee and the wallpaper though. Very thought-provoking article.
Other Comments by Nails
4. Comment #189888 by MarcLindenberg on June 7, 2008 at 1:15 pm
Very well written article!
And I totally agree thewhitepearl. I have a few friends who have a bunch of stories similar to that. It's very annoying how people just believe them too! No speculation, they just say "wow, that's quite something"
The lot of them are bs.
Other Comments by MarcLindenberg
5. Comment #189900 by Frankus1122 on June 7, 2008 at 1:43 pm
This is interesting to me as a Christian girl in my class gave a speech about the disasters in the world and how they might be a good thing in that they bring out human kindness in the form of relief efforts. My questioning of her was kind but rigorous.
Other Comments by Frankus1122
6. Comment #189901 by robotaholic on June 7, 2008 at 1:43 pm
if you think about it objectively, you sort of have to treat those 'healing' stories in a similar way to alien abduction stories-
oh why can't this world be logical, objective, and honest with itself?
Other Comments by robotaholic
7. Comment #189902 by qomak on June 7, 2008 at 1:44 pm
...What DO you say to that?
Not much but here's an idea I want to test. If he is a Christian, I'm going to swear on a miracle a muslim dude has done and then ask for conversion. If he's muslim, I'll copy and paste one of the Jewish miracles and demand he convert back to Judaism. We all know that is bound to tick off the muslims. I have no idea what pisses Jews off but I'll think of something.
Other Comments by qomak
8. Comment #189909 by black wolf on June 7, 2008 at 2:19 pm
qomak, you ask what pisses Jews off? Well, the answer is Jews, of course. All Jews know that. Other Comments by black wolf
9. Comment #189910 by Apathy personified on June 7, 2008 at 2:20 pm
< sarcasm > Surely you all know that suffering is to test your faith, the merciful, loving god would never let bad things happen to good people without a reason.
< / sarcasm >
Wasn't there a study in America that showed the power of prayer had a slightly negative effect?
Edit: Its piss poor scholary detail, but i can't remember who did the study, sorry guys.
Edit, Edit: Turns out studies on the power of prayer tend to be flawed in some way or other, so please disregard the comment about a particular one in America above. For those intersted i think it was done at Duke Uni.
Other Comments by Apathy personified
10. Comment #189911 by Corylus on June 7, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Wonderful article. I can't fault it: both literate and humane.
It demonstrates why the 'problem of evil' is the biggest hurdle of all for traditional theism; and why it will always remain so.
This is because, even if every individual in the world were suddenly able to stop needlessly causing pain, (for which the 'Well God gave us free will!' defence is always invoked) we would still have 'natural evil' to contend with (in the form of hurricanes, earthquakes etc.)
There is no-one out there to care for us. All we have is each other.
Other Comments by Corylus
11. Comment #189912 by thewhitepearl on June 7, 2008 at 2:37 pm
MarcLindenberg I bet the stories my grandfather tells would put your friends to shame. Sometimes I really feel as if he needs to be commited. And to top it all off he just retired as a geophysicist. (He's not what the general population would refer to as stupid) The thing that is most horrifying to me however is that he isn't b.s.ing he really truly feels that it happened. He has deluted himself. It's almost as though he has played a game of chinese whisper within his own consciencenes.
Qomak I'm not following..
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
12. Comment #189924 by kaiserkriss on June 7, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Whitepearl:
I'm a geophysicist as well, and on a daily basis work with fellow geoscientists who should know better, but still believe absolutely in creationism. Just like your grandfather, my associates and colleagues compartmentalize things and act irrationally. They don't follow the evidence, they parrot what they are taught in school, and rather than think for themselves, do the easy thing and go with he majority.
From a scientists point of view, rather shameful behavior, but from a social view point quite understandable, especially when taken in context of their social setting.
Often these people work or worked in large, layered organizations with very room for independent thought and a very autocratic leadership. In order to survive and get ahead, you don't rock the boat. jcw
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
13. Comment #189929 by mordacious1 on June 7, 2008 at 6:02 pm
kaiserkrissI'm sure thewhitepearl doesn't expect her GF to rock the boat, but healing through the laying on of hands is pushing the envelope.
thewhitepearl
I think what qomak is suggesting is: go up to your GF and say "Wow, last week I saw this Islamic Iman put his thumbs on a blind man's eyes, prayed to Allah, and the man could instantly see! I'm convinced and am converting to Islam!". Of course, GF will say, "It's all fake, it's fake". Then you say, "Well, kinda sounds like when you lengthened that guys leg...".
Other Comments by mordacious1
14. Comment #189931 by T4Baxter on June 7, 2008 at 6:15 pm
When people are accepted into a church they are often subjected to close scrutiny from within the congregation. They seem primarily interested in the level of piety you display, and your knowledge of, ability to convincingly interpret, the relevant holy text. There is a real hierarchy to clime as you might in any other social circumstance, and to be a success it is necessary to have, at least briefly, studied the bible. It seems that, if a person really wants to climb, and fast he/she has to claim a connection with God worthy of miraculous interventions, through them, and or, for them. Once the lie has been told, in a moment of weakness, your reputation within that church rides upon your total dedication to the anecdote. I get the impression it's their reputation being 'at stake', that initiates the construction of a defensive, and as such, highly emotional response to doubting the stories themselves. Almost daring you to call them a liar. My dad used to be the same. Other Comments by T4Baxter
15. Comment #189933 by designsoda on June 7, 2008 at 6:26 pm
Looks like I'm the only one who thought this article was going to be about Buffy. :) Other Comments by designsoda
16. Comment #189942 by Olliedog on June 7, 2008 at 8:39 pm
Looks like I'm the only one who thought this article was going to be about Buffy. :)
No, no you weren't. :^(
Ollie
Other Comments by Olliedog
17. Comment #189943 by utelme on June 7, 2008 at 8:41 pm
I told a friend about the leg lengthening miracle. He told me he was now converting to Christianity and heading off to church to get his penis lengthened!Other Comments by utelme
18. Comment #189945 by thewhitepearl on June 7, 2008 at 9:00 pm
mordacious1- got it now...thanks..done and done..i always appreciate your comments because you do it in such a vivid way not only do I get some sort of mental image but laugh my ass off as well...
The leg argument is often brought up in response to my "yeah but millions of other people say that they've seen/talked to/made contact with THEIR god of choice...swear by it.." (you know that bit)
I never thought about bursting through the door or making a (somewhat crank phone call) exclaiming my new found reason for faith and then turning it around on him. hmmm i'm somewhat disappointed in myself.
thanks guys!
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
19. Comment #189946 by thewhitepearl on June 7, 2008 at 9:01 pm
UTELME: lmao..shut the fuck up. Other Comments by thewhitepearl
20. Comment #189952 by noodly_noodleson on June 7, 2008 at 9:53 pm
I once out of curiosity attended an evangelical Christian prayer meeting. Half way into it one of the girls pulled out a cd player she claimed wasn't working properly and asked everyone to pray over it. Five minutes of intense grunting and wild gesticulations later, and it worked perfectly.If my statistics are correct, approximately 105 children died from starvation during those five minutes.
Your call: Is God:
a)a music lover
b)a bastard
c)
Other Comments by noodly_noodleson
21. Comment #189953 by Frankus1122 on June 7, 2008 at 10:04 pm
a)a music lover b)a bastard
c) Uri Geller
Other Comments by Frankus1122
22. Comment #189954 by EvidenceOnly on June 7, 2008 at 10:18 pm
I recently read Prof. Bart Ehrman's book: "God's problem - How the bible fails to answer our most important question: Why we suffer"It is by thinking about suffering that he became an agnostic and convinced that if there is a God, it is certain it is not the Christian God.
Here is how the explanation of suffering EVOLVED over thousands of years:
1. God rewards you when you obey him/her/it and punishes you when you don't.
2. When 1. does not seem to agree with reality, you invent Satan who gets all power from God (WTF?) to pest the believers. Now those who obey God get punished by Satan and those who don't get rewarded by Satan.
3. So why would you want to want to obey God when it makes your life miserable? The trick: Jesus will come back soon (as in during Paul's life), will rise all the death, establish his Kingdom on Earth and reward those punished by Satan and punish those rewarded by Satan.
4. When Jesus did not come back during Paul's life ("Houston we have a problem"), you invent Heaven and Hell and life after death where essentially 3. will happen.
5. 2000 years have gone by. What do we want to invent next?????
(3 is called the horizontal duality of Heaven and Hell = both are real and on Earth while 4. is called the vertical duality of Heaven and Hell = both are in the afterlife, Hell is below the Earth and Heaven is above the Earth and nowhere to be seen by us Earthlings).
The moral of this?
Mankind has invented just about anything to keep everyone dumb and sheepishly staying in line with man-made religion.
There is indeed no clearer evidence that man created god in his/her/its image than to study the absurdity of religion's explanation of pain and suffering.
Other Comments by EvidenceOnly
23. Comment #189955 by JuxtaMonkey on June 7, 2008 at 10:50 pm
T4Baxter: It's called psychological and/or spiritual abuse. It's hard for someone emotionally attach to someone to believe "bad" things about them. Although, there are those who believe their own lie...or they lie for the "good" of Christ's plan...or even a loved one. There is a host of psychological purposes, the main one is to escape reality. Their, shall we say, unreality is there is this God and he knows everything I have done and what I've done has been dubbed sinful! It's paranoia --> leads to fear, and fear?...well...fear leads to a host of undesired consequences as we all know.
God is like an investment. One invests SOOOO much into being "saved" and staying "saved" that the whole charade becomes difficult to let go. That's when you get people screaming for evolution to be taken out of the schools. What was once a journey to discover god has actually been transformed into an overt behavior to the metaphorical "running-away" from their own "ye of little faith" thoughts. That's why they have to play up that whole, "Blind-faith is honorable" bullshit. But, we've all been there--trying to convince ourselves that something is true when the plain evidence contradicts it. It's like an asshole cutting you off on the road. It jolts you and you kinda get mad at first. But, we'll eventually make peace with the idea by healing the cognitive dissonance.--we'll throw the new idea away, chunk the old one, or mend the two together. But, there is another avenue altogether. Sometimes, one just doesn't deal with the dissonant evidence. The actual reality causes too much anxiety and a person tries to mend the upset this causes...even lie, to you and to themselves. They can't toss the old belief away because there had been too much invested..."but I watch a man's leg grow right before my very eyes." It's an effort to make you deal with what they can't! Thus, if they can convince you, then somehow they can convince themselves.
But, then, they know it is a lie and no matter how they run from it...a lie is a lie is a lie is a lie.
Ahh...then guilty fear. And, how must it feel but torturous because it causes feelings of isolation and aloneness--> which just keep spinning that cycle for the fear that coming out will only isolate them more. "I say these things because I want to believe them and if I can fool myself maybe I can fool them and not be so alone, and if there is a god, maybe I can fool him too! "I'm bad because I know I really don't believe but I am going to pretend that I do until I do!" Then reality has escaped them and they have lost themselves. It's grasping for straws. Really, you begin not knowing what the truth is, but there is a sneaking suspicion that one wants to stay away from it..you know, just in case there really are pink unicorns.
WOW...sorry guys I am rambling.
Really though, that was a thought provoking article.
Other Comments by JuxtaMonkey
24. Comment #189960 by irate_atheist on June 8, 2008 at 12:03 am
14. Comment #189931 by T4Baxter
and
23. Comment #189955 by JuxtaMonkey -
Some of them really, really believe it.
I'm not sure which category she currently fits in, but my wife was in the really, really believing it category.
I could tell you things that would make your ears bleed.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
25. Comment #189961 by JuxtaMonkey on June 8, 2008 at 12:07 am
sorry irate, I did some editing on my comment. It didn't make sense when I reread it. Other Comments by JuxtaMonkey
26. Comment #189966 by clearthinker on June 8, 2008 at 12:39 am
I once out of curiosity attended an evangelical Christian prayer meeting. Half way into it one of the girls pulled out a cd player she claimed wasn't working properly and asked everyone to pray over it. Five minutes of intense grunting and wild gesticulations later, and it worked perfectly.
If my statistics are correct, approximately 105 children died from starvation during those five minutes.
Your call: Is God:
a)a music lover
b)a bastard
c) t
Noodle..I of course totally agree with you that the trivilisation of prayer and the self obcession in your example are reprehensible. However I do have a question for you -
Have you ever bought a CD or gone to a concert? If your statistics are correct then approxximately 1000 children died during your listening of that CD. That money could have been spent on the poor, and the time used to campaign for the poor -
Does that make you
a) a music lover
b) a bastard
c) ?
Other Comments by clearthinker
27. Comment #189967 by DamnDirtyApe on June 8, 2008 at 12:41 am
When the godless scientists unlock the regenerative powers of natural organisms at the genetic level, and figure out how to use such abilities to truely heal amputees, They'll still be saying 'Thank god i'm healed!'If It's me, I will do anything I can to ensure it is 'thank those folk i'm healed!' Credit where credit due.
... unlock. If science was like an xbox 360...
Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
28. Comment #189969 by irate_atheist on June 8, 2008 at 12:54 am
25. Comment #189961 by JuxtaMonkey =
Please, no sorries. No need for you to say sorry.
26. Comment #189966 by clearthinker -
David Robertson - Written any more dodgy cheques recently?
Other Comments by irate_atheist
29. Comment #189970 by Alun ap Rhisiart on June 8, 2008 at 12:59 am
EvidenceOnly: I haven't read that book, but I read his earlier(?) one 'Misquoting Jesus' which, although somewhat long-winded and repetitive at times, certainly gave me the impression he knew his subject well. Your account here doesn't quite correspond with what I had understood about the afterlife, so I wondered which is correct.I had understood that in Judaism originally, an afterlife was not on the table. Yahweh abused and murdered people, but at least once dead he let them be. Then the greeks (actually the Macedonians, I guess) invaded Judea, and quickly learned that they made more progress by attacking on the sabbath. So, if the Jews were being true to their god and keeping the sabbath, why didn't he protect them? That was when the priests came up with the get-out clause, 'He does reward you, but not in this life. Unfortunately you have no way to verify this, but, Hey! Would I lie to you?'.
One other point, an irritation of mine. Will people please stop saying 'God'! This is a bit of xian newspeak, designed (successfully by the looks of it) to make people forget that humans have invented thousands of gods, with no more evidence in favour of one than another. Putting it this way makes it sound like it is a choice between believing in 'God' or not believing in him, but that is a false dichotomy. If you mean the old Hebrew tribal war god (Exodus 15:3), Yahweh, then say so explicitly! Note that Ehrman says, "convinced that if there is a God, it is certain it is not the Christian God", but thinks there will be just one, if any. There is no reason to think this.
This is pertinent to me at the moment: we have withdrawn my 7 year old daughter from RE (as well as RO, obviously) not because we are against the idea of RE, but because they don't try to educate but to indoctrinate, and this is one of the ruses. They have to teach three world religions, with Christianity being one. Which do they chose? Christianity, Islam and Judaism! That isn't three religions, that is one religion with different subsets of prophets, it is all the religion of Yahweh. Naturally, they do not teach anything about Egyptian, Greek or Pagan gods first, because then the children could put the bible stories into context, and realize that Moses-in-a-basket is a retelling of the story of Horus as a baby; that virgin births were common in myths of the Mediterranean; that the idea of resurrection is at least as old as the story of Osiris and Seth, and so on.
Alun
Other Comments by Alun ap Rhisiart
30. Comment #189971 by Teratornis on June 8, 2008 at 1:26 am
Comment #189967 by DamnDirtyApe:
When the godless scientists unlock the regenerative powers of natural organisms at the genetic level, and figure out how to use such abilities to truely heal amputees, They'll still be saying 'Thank god i'm healed!'
Maybe, or maybe not. Perhaps when godless scientists unlock the regenerative powers of natural organisms at the genetic level, and figure out how to use such abilities to truly heal amputees, in the bargain they will figure out how to restore the critical thinking that religion amputates.
Seriously, if scientists develop such a mechanistic understanding of how cells work that they can regrow a leg, they will probably also know how to regrow a brain - or grow parts of a brain that never developed.
Other Comments by Teratornis
31. Comment #189974 by sb84 on June 8, 2008 at 2:12 am
clearthinker: I think it makes us (c) human. We, after all, don't claim to be all-good and all-powerful.Teratornis: I just accidentally flagged your message as offensive... No offense! (They should ask for a confirmation, or maybe I should just be more cautious... Once again, sorry.)
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32. Comment #189976 by alexmzk on June 8, 2008 at 2:47 am
Have you ever bought a CD or gone to a concert? If your statistics are correct then approxximately 1000 children died during your listening of that CD. That money could have been spent on the poor, and the time used to campaign for the poor -
Does that make you
a) a music lover
b) a bastard
c) ?
you think God is subject to the same physical restrictions as us?
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33. Comment #189978 by King of NH on June 8, 2008 at 2:54 am
But this article ignores the time Florida sank into the Gulf of Mexico killing millions, and we prayed that this terrible tragedy be undone and the brutal memories be erased from our fragile minds. Or when similar events happened with Mars colliding with earth (close one that, got the prayer off just in time), or when the Yellowstone supervolcano erupted just last week. Sheesh, you unsaved think no miracles happen? How do you feel now after I have proven they do?
-kidding, no hate-mail, please
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34. Comment #189990 by errm... on June 8, 2008 at 4:35 am
Of course what believers will say when another religion produces 'miracles' is that the devil did it to deceive them into that 'false religion' (tautology of course). All we need is Hume's argument.Has anyone got around to blaming the gay community for Burma and/or Szechuan yet?
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35. Comment #189992 by Brian English on June 8, 2008 at 4:54 am
The problem of Evil rests on the idea that given a benevolent (even omnibenevolent) god who is (logically) omnipotent why is there evil? The theist replies that evil is necessary so that we can have justice and similar goods. So we have a god who is powerful, but not so powerful that he can't just make us understand justice and similars. But even given this not so powerful god, we'd have to ask, why, if you need some evil to demonstrate good and illuminate justice, why do you need so much (evil)? And so on... The problem of evil reduces to belief in a god who can stop most evil but chooses not to or a god who can't stop evil. Neither god is worthy of worship.....Enter Epicurus.
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36. Comment #190001 by noodly_noodleson on June 8, 2008 at 6:03 am
Comment #189966 by clearthinker
I of course totally agree with you that the trivilisation of prayer and the self obcession in your example are reprehensible. However I do have a question for you -
Have you ever bought a CD or gone to a concert? If your statistics are correct then approxximately 1000 children died during your listening of that CD. That money could have been spent on the poor, and the time used to campaign for the poor -
Does that make you
a) a music lover
b) a bastard
c) ?
Why yes, I bought a cd just this past week.
Now to your analogy, am I:
a) a music lover
Why, yes I am.
b) a bastard
Probably a bit of a bastard, yes.
c) (nonexistent)
I would hope I am not, as my entire life is predicated on the assumption that I exist.
But nevermind that, I agree with your assessment that God is just as concerned with his own amusement and blind to world suffering as the average human being.
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37. Comment #190003 by Brian English on June 8, 2008 at 6:09 am
Does that make you
a) a music lover
b) a bastard
c) ?
And what did clearthinker do? Did he give up his position of abusing others about a god that has no justification? Did he argue that it's best to stop breeding? Did he do anything?
Whatever he did. He'll find justification in his contradictory scripture to justify his actions...
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38. Comment #190008 by rod-the-farmer on June 8, 2008 at 6:22 am
What's with all the comments about ClearThinker and bad cheques ? Did I miss a post somewhere ?And as for Comment #189943 by utelme
this would require "laying on of hands". Discretion requires I not pursue how you would arrange this.
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39. Comment #190009 by AllanW on June 8, 2008 at 6:30 am
Comment #190008 by rod-the-farmer on June 8, 2008 at 6:22 am'What's with all the comments about ClearThinker and bad cheques ? Did I miss a post somewhere ?'
Ask scottishgeologist, he has the detail. In fact I think he posted some of the detail on a thread on here a while back. Search his posts to find the detail.
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40. Comment #190015 by Frankus1122 on June 8, 2008 at 7:19 am
I shouldn't be here as I have work to do but...rod-the-farmer: it is on the Fleabytes thread, which is massive so I will try to summarize:
David Robertson took some kids on a bus trip but didn't have enough money to cover the cheque he wrote to the driver. He prayed to god and god gave him the money. MIRACLE! ANSWERED PRAYER! EVIDENCE OF GOD!
And your comments to utelme made my laugh.
As for 'clearthinker', noodly's response is a good one.
I will predict there will be no cogent response.
As Brian English stated: "He'll find justification in his contradictory scripture to justify his actions... "
clearthinker you have pissed me off again with your failure to grasp the point and attempts at misdirection. You NEVER answer questions directly and will, if you respond, pick on a minor point and avoid the main thrust of the argument put forth.
God fixes CD players and covers bad cheques but allows massive loss of life in natural disasters and won't heal amputees. Why? Because we sinned. That sin was to choose to disobey (a bad/wrong action) before we knew what the difference between bad and good/right and wrong was.
This is your explanation for hurricanes and earthquakes.
It is our fault. Or rather it is Adam's fault- no, strike that-Eve's fault (let's blame the woman) for falling to temptation from the devil. (The devil! You believe in the devil. Muhahahaha!) Some guy, 6,000 years ago did something he was incapable of knowing was wrong pissed off an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent being, and as a result of that the god-thing caused or allowed for pain and suffering to enter into the world. I am responsible for Adam and Eve's impossible transgression and that is why I am now uncomfortably hot and have a bit of a headache.
God won't fix my headache or lower the heat a bit or prevent my friend's 4 year old son from developing a fungus inside his body that may eventually kill him unless he gets a bone marrow transplant from his 9 year old sister, but he will cover your bad cheques.
God loves us.
Okay. After typing that out it is all clear to me.
Fuck off.
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41. Comment #190016 by Border Collie on June 8, 2008 at 7:36 am
You guys are wonderful! I love the comments. Sorry, mordacious1 & epeeist, I misread something ... it's thewhitepearl who's from Dallas (woo hoo!) ... no Texas in England ... you know how cixelsyd Texans are. Suffering ... didn't the Buddhists address that a long time ago? OK, pretend I'm a cretinist ... God created a perfect universe, etc., but as a cretinist, I want only the good stuff, the pleasure and blame the bad stuff on Satan. Sorry, you have to grab el toro by BOTH horns and stare him in the eye. "Hellmouth" ... nothing but a newer name for the "maw of Kali" from Hindu mythology. I'm going back to bed.Other Comments by Border Collie
42. Comment #190018 by SPS on June 8, 2008 at 7:37 am
Unusually enough, my dog is quite well behaved without religion, though he is occasionally naughty. Maybe he just needs a good preaching to to set him straight;)Speaking of creationists:
Exploring The Creation Museum - America's New Mecca of Fanatical Ignorance
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43. Comment #190024 by Border Collie on June 8, 2008 at 8:35 am
thewhitepearl ... sounds like we had/have some similar relatives ... strange how many brilliant (I'd think a geophysisist would be at least somewhat brilliant) people have or need a measure of fantasy in their lives ... many of my relatives had said similar outrageous things ... I used to argue with them. Now, I just stare at them and keep on eatin' my fried chicken ... Honk if you love Jesus ...Other Comments by Border Collie
44. Comment #190043 by prettygoodformonkeys on June 8, 2008 at 9:22 am
thewhitepearl: " Well Heather what do you have to say about the fact that one time I layed my hands on a man and prayed for him and his leg grew in my hand. Literally grew in my hand INCHES because I plead the blood of jesus christ and invoked the holy spirit..What do you have to say about that?"I had the same experience once with an angel, except it was me invoking the name of jesus......
PGFM (music lover / bastard / c)
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45. Comment #190052 by Drool on June 8, 2008 at 9:29 am
Good article. Just in case some haven't already sussed, make sure to follow the actual link and read all five pages, the cut 'n paste jobbie above is short. Other Comments by Drool
46. Comment #190054 by mordacious1 on June 8, 2008 at 9:33 am
BorderActually, I worried a little last night, because I said "England" instead of Britain. Maybe he's a Scott, or Welsh...I may have offended him...hope not. Oh well, after seeing the pictures of him sailing, I'm too envious to be too sorry.
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47. Comment #190056 by mordacious1 on June 8, 2008 at 9:37 am
thewhitepearlActually, most of my comments are no more than snide remarks...but thanks anyway.
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48. Comment #190115 by Border Collie on June 8, 2008 at 12:06 pm
mordacious1 ... None of the above ... Texan ... however, my ancestors are from the UK ... not enough time or distance to become a separate species yet, though ... maybe I'm mistaken, but were you referring to me sailing? ... can't be me ... I don't even have a boat or or an ocean ... I'm confused ... maybe I should just watch TV today ...Other Comments by Border Collie
49. Comment #190270 by thewhitepearl on June 8, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Border-HONK!!
mordacious, i know. i'm a fan of snide remarks
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Over 1.5 million copies sold
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by Richard Dawkins
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by Richard Dawkins
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by Richard Dawkins
1. Comment #189879 by Quine on June 7, 2008 at 12:36 pm
This piece goes along with the studies of people crushed by the collapse of churches during prayer services.
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