Sunday, June 8, 2008 | Reason : Wingnut News | print version

Prayer to feed the hungry

by CS Monitor

Reposted from: http://www.csmonitor.com/2008/0606/p18s02-hfcs.html

Prayer to feed the hungry
A Christian Science perspective on daily life.

For three days this week, a UN sponsored meeting in Rome examined the world food crisis and what to do about it. Wars and the disruption of local economies by destructive storms, such as the cyclone that hit Burma (Myanmar), drought, and so on – along with the higher fuel prices – play a major role in the shortages.

Although millions of dollars in food aid is being sent to countries in need, experts say it will not be enough. Even if it helps to ease the short-term crisis, what's needed is a longer-term vision.

Such a vision needs to look beyond the outward causes of the shortage to the deeper nature of man – meaning both men and women – and each individual's spiritual value. When we're able to do this, even a little, it will become evident that a world that values its people enough to unite against hunger for anyone will have sufficient food for everyone.

This becomes clearer if you look up the accounts of what Jesus did when he was feeding thousands of people with very few resources. Among the points that stand out are: He never doubted that the supplies at hand would be sufficient because he trusted God – his Father and ours. He wasn't intimidated by the huge numbers of people. Nor did he practice triage and focus on only one especially worthy or needy group.

Jesus' conviction that God would take care of everyone is a level of confidence each of us can strive for in our prayers. Mary Baker Eddy, who established this newspaper, wrote in her book "Science and Health with Key to the Scriptures": "Love is impartial and universal in its adaptations and bestowals. It is the open fount which cries, 'Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters' " (p. 13).

Our love for our families and for humanity has its real source in God, who is divine Love. Divine Love pours forth good in a never-ending stream, but very often our fears, doubts, and prejudices prevent us from seeing it. These same characteristics can affect people's attitudes toward helping those in other countries. But our prayers can help lift off that mistaken view of our fellow men and women and enable us to see them as spiritual and perfect, the children of God. Each of us is precious in God's sight, created for a purpose, designed to be a blessing to our people, our nations, the world.

How do we unlock that blessing? First, through prayer, we can refuse to see anyone or any nation as hopeless or separate from God's goodness. Divine Love is infinite, and this means there is no place where its power is absent. Love has the power to uplift leaders and other officials to a higher understanding of government and a more active appreciation of the citizens. It strengthens individuals to help one another and to work together for the common good. Next, when we pray for our own governments, we can specifically affirm that God can guide their decisions wisely and intelligently – and can keep them from acting selfishly. Each nation can be motivated by Love to help one another while also looking after its own citizens.

Last, we can take time each day to give thanks to God for His goodness and love for His people – all people. Speaking of those in need, a psalm declares: "He satisfieth the longing soul, and filleth the hungry soul with goodness" (107:9). This affirmation of God's care opens our eyes to evidence of progress, such as a new plan to distribute cash to people so that they can buy food in their communities, as the Monitor reported earlier this week ("UN aid debate: give cash, not food?" June 3).

Sometimes such prayer will reveal things we can do individually through our desire to help others. But as Jesus proved, prayer itself opens our hearts wider, enables us to lead more loving and purer lives, and to lift up those in need to God's tender, loving care. This prayer, resting firmly on divine Love, will always unite and heal.

He shall feed his flock
like a shepherd:
he shall gather the lambs
with his arm, and carry them
in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.
Isaiah 40:11

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1. Comment #190026 by Cartomancer on June 8, 2008 at 8:44 am

Yeah, or we could do something that might actually help instead...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

2. Comment #190027 by the great teapot on June 8, 2008 at 8:45 am

And those who starved to death?

Other Comments by the great teapot

3. Comment #190030 by Apathy personified on June 8, 2008 at 8:52 am

Ok, excellent plan, you get into a position of servitude and hold an internal monologue (as if there'd ever be a response), and the rest of the world will try a few practical solutions.

Incidently, having all the fundies locked away in churches praying the whole time....am i the only one who loves that idea? They should neglect everything else and pray, no more; sitting on education boards, lobbying parliament, preaching - just non-stop prayer (here's hoping they forget to eat)

Other Comments by Apathy personified

4. Comment #190031 by Vaal on June 8, 2008 at 8:56 am

Ah, so better stop my payments to charity, and just send five loaves and fishes, and pray a lot. That will stop world poverty for sure. Nothing like a bit of blind faith to address a world crisis. I'm sure those dying of starvation will appreciate my faith.

Why bother praying, might as well just have a dump for all the good it does.

Other Comments by Vaal

5. Comment #190032 by mordacious1 on June 8, 2008 at 8:56 am

The new GW policy. We airdrop a loaf of bread and a fish or two over Myanmar, and on the way down it transforms into enough to feed millions. Brilliant!

With my food budget going up, I might have to resort to this soon. Please Jesus, turn my 6 pack into a 12 pack.

I just saw a piece on fox news: "A study shows that praying is good for your brain." Uh, doesn't seem so to me...

Other Comments by mordacious1

6. Comment #190034 by Dinah on June 8, 2008 at 8:56 am

Every four days, there are a million more people on this planet. Over-population is one of the main causes of food shortages. Is 'Divine Love' going to provide a comprehensive family planning education programme along with a plentiful supply of contraceptives? No, sorry, the Pope wouldn't like it. Better stick to praying.

Other Comments by Dinah

7. Comment #190037 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 9:07 am

Over-population is one of the main causes of food shortages.

Another is the unholy alliance of conservative Christians and European liberals in their opposition to genetically modified foods.

I just don't understand it. We have the technology to prevent famines from ever occurring again but we can't because certain well-fed Westerners oppose it. Simply outrageous.

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

8. Comment #190041 by Rational_G on June 8, 2008 at 9:17 am

Yes, the anti - genetically modified food crowd is irrational.

We've been modifying "natural food" for 10,000 years.

It's called agriculture.

Other Comments by Rational_G

9. Comment #190044 by HitbLade on June 8, 2008 at 9:23 am

at first I'm like "ok, that's nice", but then I was like "lol, wtf?". Now I'm like "Frankenfood ftw"

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10. Comment #190048 by unmolested.altar.boy on June 8, 2008 at 9:27 am

"Yes, the anti - genetically modified food crowd is irrational."

Not necessarily. I personally am conflicted by GMOs. On one hand, I recognize that natural and mankind have made GMOs through eons of natural and later artificial selection through processes by agriculture.

My opposition to GMOs is the fact they seem to be used as quick fix solutions. Rather than actually addressing the problems that lead to famine and food shortages, some people throw GMOs out there as the answer to problems like

Governmental instability
Too many people
Too many fat people
poor organizational skills.

and eventually they will be need to be addressed. I reckon that GMOs will postpone that reckoning, but that day will come.

Other Comments by unmolested.altar.boy

11. Comment #190055 by Barry Pearson on June 8, 2008 at 9:35 am

Those prayers will surely work.

After all, every Easter, the Pope leads all Catholics in a prayer for peace on Earth, and immediately after every Easter world peace breaks out.

So prayer must work.

Other Comments by Barry Pearson

12. Comment #190062 by sentient on June 8, 2008 at 9:59 am

As the saying goes:-

Prayer - How to do nothing and still think you're helping

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13. Comment #190088 by King of NH on June 8, 2008 at 11:05 am

Oh, okay, I understand what they're saying. It's brilliantly simple:

Millions of people are starving and malnurished as they dig the graves for those even more unfortunate. The answer? Remind ourselves that God is loving and will never allow his children to go hun.... Oh, um, wait. But he did, didn't he? I mean, you're praying to the god that made the famine, right?

Two possibilities, as I see it:
1) There is no god
2) There is a god and he's trying to kill you

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14. Comment #190090 by NJS on June 8, 2008 at 11:10 am

Yet another diatribe that could and should be used as evidence for a diagnosis of delusional psychosis.

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15. Comment #190094 by Serdan on June 8, 2008 at 11:17 am

@unmolested.altar.boy: Yes, necessarily. Even a quick fix solution is better than to let another child suffer a horrible death from starvation. Or did you forget that this is a matter of life and death?

GMO's may even help solve some of those problems. Interestingly, instability tends to decrease when people have enough resources to feed their children. Funny how that works, huh?

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16. Comment #190097 by Roy_H on June 8, 2008 at 11:24 am

Oh no,yet more "J.C. Flannel"

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17. Comment #190103 by catskill on June 8, 2008 at 11:33 am

Why don't they ever decide to pray for the millions in donations needed to keep their organizations running instead of conduct fund raising activities? Why conduct fund raising when you can just pray for money? I wonder.

Also- GM foods are nothing like artificial selection of good crops. I was watching something about GM where they extract genetic material from bacteria then use a virus to infect plant cells and deposit the material there... its super creepy. The result is a plant with the ability to withstand getting doused with toxic chemicals that kill everything except the plant itself. Again, creepy.

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18. Comment #190106 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 11:40 am

The result is a plant with the ability to withstand getting doused with toxic chemicals that kill everything except the plant itself. Again, creepy.

I'm sure the person dying of starvation really doesn't care how "creepy" the food is.

I really didn't mean to thread jack and pull this thread off-course onto GMOs but since we are there now...

My opposition to GMOs is the fact they seem to be used as quick fix solutions. Rather than actually addressing the problems that lead to famine and food shortages, some people throw GMOs out there as the answer to problems like

I'm not saying stop at GMOs - at some point humans are going to have to learn to stop being parasites and live in equilibrium with our planet. But why turn down technology that can here and now save lives? I'm not talking about years down the road - I'm talking about right now.

I find it odd that some European liberals can deride Theists for rejecting science in favor of superstition but that is exactly what's going on with GMOs. Environmentalists have this rabid superstition that humans cannot alter the environment in any way or we will destroy life on Earth as we know it. So while they eat drink and be merry, millions die of preventable famines worldwide. How these people can sleep at night is beyond me...

Other Comments by FightingFalcon

19. Comment #190110 by Logicel on June 8, 2008 at 11:58 am

This disgustingly trite article is written by a true-blue, divine-love junkie--what a complete dipshit.

We have the knowledge that all races share a significant amount of genetic material and we all are related distantly. The in/out group is a mentality that can be vanquished through education, creativity, hard work, extending human rights, etc. No god or praying need to apply.

What a preachy, condescending, passive-aggressive, meddling tone this article has! This is the aspect of Christianity that drives me up the wall--what a bunch of brainless, meddling, so off-target-in-their-focus-of-pulling-off-real achievement love junkies. Take your useless divine love and shove it where it does not shine.

Other Comments by Logicel

20. Comment #190117 by Colwyn Abernathy on June 8, 2008 at 12:08 pm

You know I can wish to feed people, too. Not one will get fed if I do that, though. How many could I feed by volunteering at a soup kitchen for an hour? At least ONE more than PRAYING FOR AN ENTIRE YEAR...

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21. Comment #190119 by epeeist on June 8, 2008 at 12:09 pm

Comment #190106 by FightingFalcon

I'm sure the person dying of starvation really doesn't care how "creepy" the food is.

He may not this year. But next year when the seed he kept aside doesn't grow or the man from Monsanto turns up demanding large amounts cash he might.

It is always worth asking cui bono?

Other Comments by epeeist

22. Comment #190123 by Steven Mading on June 8, 2008 at 12:16 pm

FigtingFalcon, I agree with you ONLY in the case where the reason for the opposition is based on the anti-science notion that the nutritious molecules in the food are different if artificially designed than if natrally evolved (hint, they're not) and that thus eating GMO food is somehow different than eaing "organic" food.

BUT, you have to realize that that's hardly the only complaint offered by the anti-GMO crowd. There's also the legal mess about a company patenting a naturally self-replicating thing and claiming they own your plants when their plants from a neighbor's farm cross-breed with them through pollenation (as has happened in court - Monsanto won on this stupid claim). The solution they use is to try to make GMO plants sterile, but when they do that, it doesn't do much to solve world hunger since people on subsistence farming need to be able to replant their seeds. They can't be buying them again each year from the company. There's also the fact that doing this sterile - must -buy -seeds -from -company approach tends to make GMO foods be genetically homogeneous which is a problem in the long run.

There are plenty more complaints about GMO food than the stupid anti-science ones about the protein molecules we digest being somehow magically better if they're natural even when they have the same structure of atoms in them.

GMO foods would be great - if it weren't for what happens when you combine them with intellectual property law.

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23. Comment #190126 by mordacious1 on June 8, 2008 at 12:21 pm

Instead of praying all day Sunday, how about planting a garden, or raise money to donate to planned parenthood orgs in the affected nations, or...oh wait, god would damn you to eternal fire for doing that. Sorry.

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24. Comment #190127 by Colwyn Abernathy on June 8, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Instead of praying all day Sunday, how about planting a garden, or raise money to donate to planned parenthood orgs in the affected nations, or...oh wait, god would damn you to eternal fire for doing that.

Mebbe do it on Monday, then?

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25. Comment #190128 by Wadsworth on June 8, 2008 at 12:27 pm

All right then, show us. I presume you are praying energetically for the poor to be fed?- so I expect to wake up to-morrow to find the whole world well-fed and happy; if not, will you be prepared to explain precisely why Jesus has not obliged? He has 12 hours.
You know what they say: "Put up, or shut up."

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26. Comment #190134 by Border Collie on June 8, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Reminds me of an old joke:

Preacher stopped his car by the farmer's new, beautiful field of corn and said, "Farmer, it looks like you and God have done a really beautiful job this year and God is blessing you with a very good crop."

Farmer said, while wiping the sweat from his brow, "You should have seen it when God had it."

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27. Comment #190136 by notsobad on June 8, 2008 at 12:37 pm

longer-term vision

emancipate women, educate and lower birth rate

NOTHING else will ever help the third world. And that's not something you can discuss with religions that would rather see ten hungry sheep than one independent human.

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28. Comment #190143 by croatcat on June 8, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Here is an instance where the elimination of religion/churches makes the most sense. Instead of the millions (billions?) collected each year for the upkeeep of said buildings, that money could definitely be put to better use.

There is just something unsettling about an intelligent species that can't care for its members.

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29. Comment #190153 by FightingFalcon on June 8, 2008 at 1:03 pm

He may not this year. But next year when the seed he kept aside doesn't grow or the man from Monsanto turns up demanding large amounts cash he might.

BUT, you have to realize that that's hardly the only complaint offered by the anti-GMO crowd. There's also the legal mess about a company patenting a naturally self-replicating thing and claiming they own your plants when their plants from a neighbor's farm cross-breed with them through pollenation (as has happened in court - Monsanto won on this stupid claim). The solution they use is to try to make GMO plants sterile, but when they do that, it doesn't do much to solve world hunger since people on subsistence farming need to be able to replant their seeds. They can't be buying them again each year from the company. There's also the fact that doing this sterile - must -buy -seeds -from -company approach tends to make GMO foods be genetically homogeneous which is a problem in the long run.

To both of you - I honestly haven't heard of the court case you're referring to so I can't comment. I had assumed (I suppose wrongly) that opposition to GMOs came from sentiments earlier about that food being "creepy" and therefore inedible for humans.

I don't know too much about GMOs and intellectual property cases. Looks like I have some reading to do.

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30. Comment #190159 by LochRaven on June 8, 2008 at 1:18 pm

As the saying goes, "Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish."

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31. Comment #190160 by epeeist on June 8, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Comment #190153 by FightingFalcon

To both of you - I honestly haven't heard of the court case you're referring to so I can't comment. I had assumed (I suppose wrongly) that opposition to GMOs came from sentiments earlier about that food being "creepy" and therefore inedible for humans.

There are the usual set who are worried about "Frankenfoods", but there is also some more studied opposition which is concerned about monocultures in both the agricultural and financial senses. And as I said, you really have to look to see who is the principle beneficiary of GMO.

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32. Comment #190163 by moderndaythomas on June 8, 2008 at 1:22 pm

Among the points that stand out are: He never doubted that the supplies at hand would be sufficient because he trusted God.

Let me see, pray or improve hot box agriculture.

He wasn't intimidated by the huge numbers of people. Nor did he practice triage and focus on only one especially worthy or needy group.

And again, pray or improve sex education and the availability of birth control.

The Christian way would have you remain ignorant of the real underlying causes to the worlds troubles and trust in the Lord.
How vague and complacent.

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33. Comment #190174 by moderndaythomas on June 8, 2008 at 1:37 pm

take time each day to give thanks to God for His goodness and love

How about taking time each day to thank Flemming for pondering over some bit of mould in 1928, or Florey for extracting the medicine 12 years later after Flemming threw in the towel.
Thank you science for discovering the microbial world so that our wives wouldn't suffer painful deaths after child birth!
Thank you science for my healthy children that I might see them grow up without the fear of small pox or polio.

Thank you science for not bowing down to the repressive religious right and for pursuing reason and truth by probing nature when Christendom referred to place their noses in the Book of Job.

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34. Comment #190218 by black wolf on June 8, 2008 at 2:43 pm

When I started reading this piece, I thought maybe they'll have something worthwile to say. After two paragraphs, I thought ok, now in the next paragraph they'll start talking about some practical solutions. Instead, the piece dived deeper and deeper into moronity, sentence by sentence. And then it just ended on prayer and divine love.
This article clearly disqualifies them from taking part in any reasonable public discussion about anything. I wonder how they manage to tie their shoes.

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35. Comment #190224 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 8, 2008 at 2:51 pm

Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day; give him a religion, and he'll starve to death while praying for a fish.

I prayed for twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. ~Frederick Douglass

Call on God, but row away from the rocks. ~Indian Proverb

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36. Comment #190226 by rod-the-farmer on June 8, 2008 at 2:54 pm

Re Comment #190218 by black wolf

My thoughts exactly.

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37. Comment #190238 by robotaholic on June 8, 2008 at 3:27 pm

hey I know, instead of praying for food...christians could always eat christ's flesh and blood? - g no thx I'd rather starve - wow christianity is a disgusting bronze age myth

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38. Comment #190249 by Brian English on June 8, 2008 at 4:04 pm

Jesus' conviction that God would take care of everyone is a level of confidence each of us can strive for in our prayers.

Christians must have disjointed thought processes. The trinity states that the father, son and holy spirit are part of the same godhead. It also illogically states that they are distinct. Leaving aside this incoherency the above quote is rendered:

God's conviction that God would take care of everyone...

Either Jesus was just a spiritual teacher or he was God. They seem to want to have it both ways. Sometimes Jesus is a human (and not God) and other times the's God as God's son.

Wrap your brains around that lack of coherence and see if you need a drink....

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39. Comment #190257 by ivellios on June 8, 2008 at 4:23 pm

Haven't the Ethiopians been starving for years?

Seriously, I've seen those crappy commercials interrupting my cartoons since Loony Tunes was new!

They say that any civilization is three meals away from chaos. So, logically if you enter GMO into the equation in areas of instability and the "have not's" are suddenly "haves" as well, you stabilize the area.

Those that are afraid of GMO and cloned meat need to wake up. There was an article in WIRED a few months ago about clones. #1 in my mind after reading, clones are already in the food stock regardless of FDA.

Finally, shame on Monsanto for even bringing that to court. Just like any other drug, they want to get you on the comeback.

EDIT: It's telling to me that out of the hundreds of people that pass through a particular off ramp, an atheist, me, went out of my way to get a homeless person a large cup of hot coco and a meager amount of food.

I sure didn't see any christians lining up to help, as the person was holding up a sign that read, "god bless you." But I suppose that's god directing an atheist to do his work. Wait, I have free will...oh well.

Maybe cause I work outdoors, I couldn't stand to know that that poor person would have to stay the night outside in 10F weather. If I had had more time a proper meal in a restaurant would have been given.

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40. Comment #190258 by Factofevolution on June 8, 2008 at 4:24 pm

Crap in one hand and pray for food in the other. I bet I know which one will get filled first!

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41. Comment #190273 by glenister_m on June 8, 2008 at 4:52 pm

I studied genetics in university back in the late 80's, and when I heard about GMO's, I thought "big deal" they are just adding gene(s) for proteins that occur in other species. Since then I have become very worried because of:

1. Cross-pollination with related wild plants. This has created superweeds that are resistant to herbicides (eg. Round-up), and that produce their own pesticides (eg. BT) that both discourage their natural predators and will lead to their developing pesticide-resistance (so BT will be useless as a "natural" pesticide for farmers).

2. Cross-pollination with neighbouring crops. Since Monsanto and others legally own the GMO's, you can be sued if those engineered genes show up in your crops, and worse yet your seeds won't grow if they are fertilized with "suicide-gene" pollen. The genie is out of the bottle, you can't recall GMO crops, and this has already caused a lot of problems in Mexico and Canada.

3. Most, if not all, of the advantages of GMO's can be achieved by non-GMO means. It is simply a money-grab by the companies involved, and too little concern for safety (eg. GMO's considered unfit for human consumption because of allergy concerns have "accidentally" made it into the human food supply).

4. Numerous studies have shown that GMO's are not as safe as they are advertized. Aside from the negative effect of GMO pollen on the growth of monarch butterflies, studies have shown that given the choice farm animals will not eat GMO corn/grain if non-GMO is available.

5. Some studies have shown that those farm animals that are forced to eat the GMO grain often end up with health problems. One study even showed that it appeared to be the genetic modification process that was the problem. eg. Control group - fed non-GMO's = healthy. Group A - fed non-GMO's protein A = healthy. Group B - fed GMO that produced protein A = unhealthy.

6. As I discuss when we cover genetic engineering in high school science class, the other problem with GMO's is unexpected side-effects. Putting protein A into a plant may cause no health concerns. The same may be true for protein B. However when both are put in the same plant, they could interact and cause problems eg. allergin, toxicity, etc.

Our family eats organic whenever possible.

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42. Comment #190282 by NakedCelt on June 8, 2008 at 5:35 pm

I'm concerned about GMOs, too. For one thing, I don't trust major corporations not to cut corners on safety if it'll profit their shareholders. For another, I'm afraid in the international market there are likely to be just a handful of GMO strains for each crop that spread all over the world because they sell better, which then opens the door for some pathogen to adapt specifically to that strain, wipe out huge swathes of the world's agriculture, and leave the situation worse than before.

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43. Comment #190288 by thewhitepearl on June 8, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Just another example showing how people care more about their "feelings" instead of focusing on the real problem.

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44. Comment #190291 by SPS on June 8, 2008 at 6:01 pm

Has anyone seen the documentary The Future of Food? Worth a watch in my opinion.

By the way, how did all those prayers for world peace go?

Edit: Just saw Barry Pearson's post. Glad to hear it. On to the next world crisis!

Other Comments by SPS

45. Comment #190300 by moderndaythomas on June 8, 2008 at 6:50 pm

Our family eats organic whenever possible.

Yes, organic is better when possible, but when there is eight billion people screaming for food, will it be probable?
Will organic and free range be possible?

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46. Comment #190307 by SPS on June 8, 2008 at 7:24 pm

moderndaythomas,

My guess is what is probable is what is profitable unless unavoidable.

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47. Comment #190309 by mmurray on June 8, 2008 at 7:30 pm

Maybe when they are finished praying they could ask the US government to reverse its decision to not provide foreign aid to organisations who include abortion amongst their family planning advice. That would make a difference and the current US government would listen to the Christian Scientists.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

48. Comment #190311 by NakedCelt on June 8, 2008 at 7:52 pm

Comment #190300 by moderndaythomas:

Our family eats organic whenever possible.

Yes, organic is better when possible, but when there is eight billion people screaming for food, will it be probable?
Will organic and free range be possible?

The food crisis is tied to the oil crisis. Organic and free-range are less dependent on oil than other agriculture, especially if they eschew energy-hungry irrigation, so their prices are likely to rise more slowly than other foods.

Other Comments by NakedCelt

49. Comment #190318 by King of NH on June 8, 2008 at 8:31 pm

Additional note:

I live in Concord, NH; home of Mary Baker Eddy. While there are many plaques around town noting spots she made 'famous,' and an elder care center she founded is still important to our health system, Christian Science is not big here. In fact, I have never met a Christian Scientist (distinction made from Christian scientist [lower case]). Sorry, just had to defend my hometown, since I know many towns that birthed largely successful cults take pride in the fact. I have met Shakers, though none are left in New England. They were a strange lot, but not publicly.

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50. Comment #190366 by PJG on June 9, 2008 at 1:16 am

How to change attitudes to prayer in one week....

All scientists stop working towards ways of "feeding the world" in response to the attitude that prayer will provide.

It would be interesting to see what the church would think of scientists then. No doubt they would say scientists are inhumane.

Other Comments by PJG