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The 14-year-old Afghan suicide bomber
by Kim Sengupta
Reposted from:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/the-14yearold--afghan-suicide-bomber-843535.html
As three soldiers are blown up, teenager caught on a lethal mission reveals how he was groomed to kill British troops.
The surroundings were grim and forbidding, a notorious jail run by Afghanistan's feared security service for those taken prisoner in the bloody war with the Taliban.
Among the inmates: Shakirullah Yasin Ali; a small, frail boy, just 14 years old, arrested as he prepared to carry out a suicide bombing against British and American targets. "If I had succeeded, I would be dead now, I realise that," he said in a soft, nervous voice.
"But those who were instructing me said that if I believed in serving God it was my duty to fight against the foreigners. They said God would protect me when the time came."
It was a suicide bomber like Shakirullah who, on Sunday, claimed the lives of three more British soldiers in Helmand, bringing the total number of UK fatalities in Afghanistan to 100.
The Independent spoke to Shakirullah, a Pakistani Pashtun, one of the youngest ever suicide bombing suspects, after he was captured in a raid at the town of Khost in Afghanistan.
Sitting cross-legged on the floor of the prison run by Afghan intelligence, the NDS, Shakirullah said: "I do not know what is going to happen to me. All we were told was the British and the Americans were in Afghanistan and they were killing Muslims.
"All I know is what the mullahs told me and kept telling me, that the British and the Americans were against God," he said with his head bowed down, his hands twisting a handkerchief.
Shakirullah, one of four children of Noor Ali Khan, a farmer, lived at the village of Tandola in the Pakistani region of South Waziristan. He said his education was at a madrassa run by two imams, Mullah Saleb and Mullah Azizullah. About 50 students between 13 and 22 attended the school, where the syllabus consisted of learning the Koran by heart, interspersed with political lectures.
About two months ago, he finished a first course in Koranic studies. He was then approached by the two mullahs who told him that the time had come for him to serve God in Afghanistan.
"At first, I did not know what I was supposed to be doing, then Mullah Saleb said I would be striking a blow against the foreigners, the British and the Americans, and get justice for all the people being killed. I was told I must leave at once and they would talk to my family on my behalf. I wanted to see my mother and father but I was told that was not possible for security reasons. That upset me but I thought I will be seeing them again as soon as I got back. They said my family would get well paid for what I was doing."
On the way to Afghanistan Shakirullah said he was told by a mullah that his mission would involve driving a car bomb. "I said I did not know how to drive but they said they would teach me, they said I would not have to drive far. Mullah Saleb said it was too late to stop. He kept saying that to be a good Muslim I must fulfil my duty. I was missing my family but I did not know how to go back to my village and I did not know anyone in the area I could run to. There was nothing I could do except pray I would be all right and my family would be all right."
Shakirullah says he was driven across the border and taken to a house in the city of Khost. "There were a few more people there and the leader was a man they called the Doctor, he and Mullah Saleb took me for driving lessons and took me to sermons in the evening. The Doctor brought the explosives in two bags for the car and he was the one who made the bomb. I was told I would soon be ready to carry out my mission."
However, the car being prepared for the bombing, a Toyota Corolla, had stalled a few times while Shakirullah was being taught to drive and, on one occasion, he and the Doctor had been closely questioned by the police.
Forty-eight hours later, the house where they were staying was raided by Afghan and Nato forces. "I had been told by the mullah that I was ready to go, the time was right. But then they came during the night, the soldiers, and smashed down the doors. There were Afghans and foreigners. A gun was stuck to my face and I thought I was going to be killed. They dragged us all out and took us to a prison."
Shakirullah's attack may have been prevented but not that of the bomber who took the lives of Privates Nathan Cuthbertson, 19, Charles David Murray, 19, and Daniel Gamble, 22. They had been going to speak to local people when a bomber detonated an explosive vest strapped to his chest.
Last night, their families paid tribute to their loved ones. Pte Murray's family said: "David was the best son, brother, grandson, nephew, cousin and friend any of us could hope for. Although his time with us was short, he lived every second to the full and taught us the meaning of life."
The parents of Pte Gamble said: "Dan died doing the job he was so proud to do, with the regiment he was proud to be part of. He was special because he had trained in the Afghan Pashtu language. He was special to his family and friends � a true hero in every sense."
Pte Cuthbertson's company commander, Major Russell Lewis, said he was "a talented, motivated individual. He always had a smile on his face and relished the challenges faced by the professional soldier. "
British victims of the latest suicide attack
Private Daniel Gamble
Daniel Gamble, 22, from Uckfield, East Sussex, joined 2nd Battalion, the Parachute Regiment in 2006 and became his platoon's linguist, working to understand Afghan culture and society. His parents said he was proud of his job and regiment.
Private Charles Murray
Born in Dumfries and brought up in Carlisle, Charles David Murray followed a family tradition when he joined up. His father, grandfather and uncle were all in the forces. Pte Murray, 19, known as David, was serving as a rifleman.
Private Nathan Cuthbertson
The 19-year-old from Sunderland had been fast-tracked through the army since joining aged 16, and within a year of joining 2nd Battalion, the Parachute Regiment, he had passed the infantryassault engineers course, usually reserved for more experienced soldiers. He was his platoon's machine gunner.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/the-14yearold--afghan-suicide-bomber-843535.html
As three soldiers are blown up, teenager caught on a lethal mission reveals how he was groomed to kill British troops.
The surroundings were grim and forbidding, a notorious jail run by Afghanistan's feared security service for those taken prisoner in the bloody war with the Taliban.
Among the inmates: Shakirullah Yasin Ali; a small, frail boy, just 14 years old, arrested as he prepared to carry out a suicide bombing against British and American targets. "If I had succeeded, I would be dead now, I realise that," he said in a soft, nervous voice.
"But those who were instructing me said that if I believed in serving God it was my duty to fight against the foreigners. They said God would protect me when the time came."
It was a suicide bomber like Shakirullah who, on Sunday, claimed the lives of three more British soldiers in Helmand, bringing the total number of UK fatalities in Afghanistan to 100.
The Independent spoke to Shakirullah, a Pakistani Pashtun, one of the youngest ever suicide bombing suspects, after he was captured in a raid at the town of Khost in Afghanistan.
Sitting cross-legged on the floor of the prison run by Afghan intelligence, the NDS, Shakirullah said: "I do not know what is going to happen to me. All we were told was the British and the Americans were in Afghanistan and they were killing Muslims.
"All I know is what the mullahs told me and kept telling me, that the British and the Americans were against God," he said with his head bowed down, his hands twisting a handkerchief.
Shakirullah, one of four children of Noor Ali Khan, a farmer, lived at the village of Tandola in the Pakistani region of South Waziristan. He said his education was at a madrassa run by two imams, Mullah Saleb and Mullah Azizullah. About 50 students between 13 and 22 attended the school, where the syllabus consisted of learning the Koran by heart, interspersed with political lectures.
About two months ago, he finished a first course in Koranic studies. He was then approached by the two mullahs who told him that the time had come for him to serve God in Afghanistan.
"At first, I did not know what I was supposed to be doing, then Mullah Saleb said I would be striking a blow against the foreigners, the British and the Americans, and get justice for all the people being killed. I was told I must leave at once and they would talk to my family on my behalf. I wanted to see my mother and father but I was told that was not possible for security reasons. That upset me but I thought I will be seeing them again as soon as I got back. They said my family would get well paid for what I was doing."
On the way to Afghanistan Shakirullah said he was told by a mullah that his mission would involve driving a car bomb. "I said I did not know how to drive but they said they would teach me, they said I would not have to drive far. Mullah Saleb said it was too late to stop. He kept saying that to be a good Muslim I must fulfil my duty. I was missing my family but I did not know how to go back to my village and I did not know anyone in the area I could run to. There was nothing I could do except pray I would be all right and my family would be all right."
Shakirullah says he was driven across the border and taken to a house in the city of Khost. "There were a few more people there and the leader was a man they called the Doctor, he and Mullah Saleb took me for driving lessons and took me to sermons in the evening. The Doctor brought the explosives in two bags for the car and he was the one who made the bomb. I was told I would soon be ready to carry out my mission."
However, the car being prepared for the bombing, a Toyota Corolla, had stalled a few times while Shakirullah was being taught to drive and, on one occasion, he and the Doctor had been closely questioned by the police.
Forty-eight hours later, the house where they were staying was raided by Afghan and Nato forces. "I had been told by the mullah that I was ready to go, the time was right. But then they came during the night, the soldiers, and smashed down the doors. There were Afghans and foreigners. A gun was stuck to my face and I thought I was going to be killed. They dragged us all out and took us to a prison."
Shakirullah's attack may have been prevented but not that of the bomber who took the lives of Privates Nathan Cuthbertson, 19, Charles David Murray, 19, and Daniel Gamble, 22. They had been going to speak to local people when a bomber detonated an explosive vest strapped to his chest.
Last night, their families paid tribute to their loved ones. Pte Murray's family said: "David was the best son, brother, grandson, nephew, cousin and friend any of us could hope for. Although his time with us was short, he lived every second to the full and taught us the meaning of life."
The parents of Pte Gamble said: "Dan died doing the job he was so proud to do, with the regiment he was proud to be part of. He was special because he had trained in the Afghan Pashtu language. He was special to his family and friends � a true hero in every sense."
Pte Cuthbertson's company commander, Major Russell Lewis, said he was "a talented, motivated individual. He always had a smile on his face and relished the challenges faced by the professional soldier. "
British victims of the latest suicide attack
Private Daniel Gamble
Daniel Gamble, 22, from Uckfield, East Sussex, joined 2nd Battalion, the Parachute Regiment in 2006 and became his platoon's linguist, working to understand Afghan culture and society. His parents said he was proud of his job and regiment.
Private Charles Murray
Born in Dumfries and brought up in Carlisle, Charles David Murray followed a family tradition when he joined up. His father, grandfather and uncle were all in the forces. Pte Murray, 19, known as David, was serving as a rifleman.
Private Nathan Cuthbertson
The 19-year-old from Sunderland had been fast-tracked through the army since joining aged 16, and within a year of joining 2nd Battalion, the Parachute Regiment, he had passed the infantryassault engineers course, usually reserved for more experienced soldiers. He was his platoon's machine gunner.
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Posted: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 88 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #190976 by passutoba on June 10, 2008 at 3:06 am
"I do not know what is going to happen to me" says Shakirullah. Well, one can only guess, but lets hope he now, at least, gets a proper education and a chance to reflect rationally about what he nearly did.Given the basket case that is Afghanistan though, he'll probably be trying again next week with the assistance of the intelligence services.....
Other Comments by passutoba
3. Comment #190978 by SteveN on June 10, 2008 at 3:08 am
This sort of thing makes me so angry. Coercing a child already brainwashed by religion into carrying out murder and suicide is simply sickening. Notice also how the Mullahs never volunteer to do the glorious work of Allah. Evil, twisted cowards. Other Comments by SteveN
4. Comment #190980 by bamboospitfire on June 10, 2008 at 3:16 am
I would be pleased if boys like Shakirullah Yasin Ali could be given a proper education and allowed to reach their own conclusions about the actions they were groomed to undertake. Perhaps if former potential suicide bombers spoke out against the practice, fewer boys and girls would be duped into it. It may be a vain hope, but if it might prevent just one suicide bombing I think it would be worthwhile. Other Comments by bamboospitfire
5. Comment #190982 by rod-the-farmer on June 10, 2008 at 3:24 am
Perhaps we (western society) need to set up schools in this area, in which multiple subjects could be taught. If I were a young child, I might be much more interested in learning about arithmetic, writing, basic science, and perhaps some basic agriculture skills, than learning the koran and listening to political speeches. Teachers at such a school could say "If you wish to learn about the koran, you should go to the other school. But if you wish to learn about the natural world around you, come here."Perhaps some of the troops there are helping with this ? Even if they only had the children in for one hour, I think they could open their minds to the possibility of learning about the world around them. I suspect their natural curiosity would bloom and make them want to come back for another lesson. Careful choices as to subject matter may help reduce any conflicts with traditional teaching. Young children are often fascinated by things like microscopes and telescopes.
Other Comments by rod-the-farmer
6. Comment #190983 by Synchronium on June 10, 2008 at 3:30 am
This is just shocking. In the end, this would have done far MORE permanent damage to the child than any paedophile.Oh, and Richard, paedophile has an 'a' in it. Last time I checked, you were from Oxford. :D
Other Comments by Synchronium
7. Comment #190988 by Richard Dawkins on June 10, 2008 at 3:43 am
Oh, and Richard, paedophile has an 'a' in it. Last time I checked, you were from Oxford
The Oxford English Dictionary gives both spellings as alternatives, and expresses no preference.
Richard
Other Comments by Richard Dawkins
8. Comment #190989 by DamnDirtyApe on June 10, 2008 at 3:48 am
A perfect example of everything we stand against. Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
9. Comment #190990 by Synchronium on June 10, 2008 at 3:49 am
Ok, you win this one... :)Wait, there's a typo on pp112 of The Extended Phenotype, so we both win, right?
Other Comments by Synchronium
10. Comment #190991 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 10, 2008 at 3:55 am
It was surely there that he learned that he must do whatever God requires him to do, and it was surely there that he learned to believe mullahs who told him what God required him to do. If you teach a child that certain truths, lacking evidence, are infallible, and if you teach him that certain individuals called mullahs are qualified to tell you what those truths are, you should not be surprised if he becomes a suicide bomber. This is as clear a case of child abuse as you'll find.
Exactly, which is why some of us have no time whatsoever for Islam's apologetics. The question, I suppose, is what do you do with a situation like this?
Because, let's face it, these people are nuts. Not playing with a full deck. A few sticks short of a bundle. A few bricks short of a stack. Nuts.
You can believe all sorts of things and retain a connection to reality, albeit a tenous one. You can think that all Palestinian terrorism is the result of the Zionist occupation. You can think that 9/11 was organized by Mossad.
But noone who is in possession of a complete set of marbles praises stuff like this, or wants to see their own child go the same way.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
11. Comment #190992 by Laurie Fraser on June 10, 2008 at 3:56 am
But Richard, we must always keep our archaic spellings going, if only to annoy the Yanks. I never thought I'd say this, but I'm in favour of "paedophilia".:)
Seriously, I agree with you. This is child abuse of the worst sort. And it does no good at all to apologetically state something like "Oh, but they're radical Muslims. My religious beliefs are far more moderate." ANY religion which is capable of demanding obedience to "god" is evil from the ground up.
Other Comments by Laurie Fraser
12. Comment #190993 by jo5ef on June 10, 2008 at 4:07 am
I wonder if the boy was aware of this case last year: http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/07/d3d050ac-7a59-4d70-94f2-34edfcef9546.htmlI do think the individual holds responsibility in these cases, they are surely aware they are commiting murder.
Other Comments by jo5ef
13. Comment #191000 by Nails on June 10, 2008 at 4:31 am
Shocking, simply shocking.
I mean, does it matter if there's an 'a' in it or not? :-0
Seriously though, this shows exactly what is wrong with fundamentalist religion in backwards countries.
Makes me sick to my stomach as i have a 14 year old boy who won't tidy his bedroom unless threatened with loss of x-box or internet privelages.
Other Comments by Nails
14. Comment #191002 by Epinephrine on June 10, 2008 at 4:39 am
Laurie Fraser -
While I am enough of a a stickler to get annoyed when grammar is abused, and also have a preference for archaic spellings, I have of late begun to appreciate that language does change and that opposing it simply out of nostalgia or spite isn't sufficient.
I certainly have issues with the OED - they are far to ready to include new words (should d'oh and bling really be included? Have they passed a sufficient test of time?), and I disagree with them on the raison d'être of a dictionary. It has been put forward that a dictionary serves to chronicle the changing use of the language, but in truth it also serves (and probably with greater frequency) as a reference of what is correct, and it seems as if they wish to escape that responsibility by simply noting all misspellings as variants. It irks me to see that indexes, stadiums and octopuses are all acceptable, but mastery of Latin and Greek should not be a prerequisite for navigating the our language.
Other Comments by Epinephrine
15. Comment #191003 by Diocletian on June 10, 2008 at 4:40 am
I wonder if the boy was aware of this case last year: http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2007/07/d3d050ac-7a59-4d70-94f2-34edfcef9546.html
I do think the individual holds responsibility in these cases, they are surely aware they are commiting murder.
Whilst it is true the young man was well aware he would end the lives of others - the question is whether or not he had been manipulated to the point of not knowing it was wrong. Punishing a 14 year old for the crimes of his elders seems pointless. He is as much as a victim (especially given he was willing to die himself) as those he was sent to kill.
Other Comments by Diocletian
16. Comment #191004 by Synchronium on June 10, 2008 at 4:46 am
Comment #191002 by Epinephrine on June 10, 2008 at 4:39 amWhile I am enough of a a stickler to get annoyed when grammar is abused, and also have a preference for archaic spellings, I have of late begun to appreciate that language does change and that opposing it simply out of nostalgia or spite isn't sufficient.
You should probably change your username to Adrenaline :P
Other Comments by Synchronium
17. Comment #191011 by Epinephrine on June 10, 2008 at 5:27 am
Comment #191004 by Synchronium on June 10, 2008 at 4:46 am
You should probably change your username to Adrenaline :P
Epinephrine can be shortened to Epi, which is much cooler. As I play online games with voice communication it's important to be able to yell to one another easily :)
Other Comments by Epinephrine
18. Comment #191018 by bucketchemist on June 10, 2008 at 5:52 am
Whilst it is true the young man was well aware he would end the lives of others - the question is whether or not he had been manipulated to the point of not knowing it was wrong.
I suspect part of the problem is not one of knowing whether it was wrong or right, but of being so certain of the knowledge one has that one is willing to carry out such a horrendous act. Personally I would prefer it if there was a lot more doubt, dilemma, and dithering in the world.
Other Comments by bucketchemist
19. Comment #191019 by Lucas on June 10, 2008 at 5:52 am
"The mullahs who groomed him are guilty of a child abuse that is every bit as bad as the sexual abuse perpetrated by most pedophiles." I'd say it's far, far worse, actually. Coercing children to murder involves both child abuse and conspiracy to murder, and leads to the death of the child and many others. This poor kid. He is guilty of nothing. He was used and abused and threatened into a course of action he clearly was not interested in himself. Punishing him for attempted murder would be like punishing child sex slaves in Thailand for prostitution, as if their actions are in any way their own fault. Am I right that given the information the kid has, our soldiers over there could go find these two Mullah jackasses, gut them like pigs, and disband the school? What have we been doing over there for the past 7 years if this is still going on? Does it not make sense, in the interest of saving lives, to go to the source?
Other Comments by Lucas
20. Comment #191022 by al-rawandi on June 10, 2008 at 5:58 am
Where the hell is lastgreekstanding?
His apologetics for this behavior are truly unmatched in the western world.
Fanusi,
Sometimes there are factors that go into creating a culture where violence is more commonplace... but I must say you are correct when you note that these kind of situations ALWAYS crop up in Muslim societies and cultures.
Surely, it is no accident.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
21. Comment #191023 by bucketchemist on June 10, 2008 at 5:59 am
gut them like pigs
Or alternatively, behave like decent human beings.
We all feel hate and disgust sometimes but acting in the way you suggest is a perpetuation of the same evil, albeit without giving these feelings a name and elevating them to the status of a deity.
Other Comments by bucketchemist
22. Comment #191024 by Synchronium on June 10, 2008 at 6:00 am
What have we been doing over there for the past 7 years if this is still going on?
Good point. It reminds me of George Orwell's reasoning for continuous war in 1984.
Other Comments by Synchronium
23. Comment #191028 by squinky on June 10, 2008 at 6:07 am
This just shows you how hard the soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan have it. Can you imagine shooting a 14 year old that approaches your checkpoint? A little kid?
If I was such a soldier, I would hesitate and I would end up dead. I can't capture with words just how sick and perverted the imams are. Any imam that commands a child to murder others in this way because they don't have the balls to fight themselves should be executed and their mosque dynamited (with no one inside of course).
Other Comments by squinky
24. Comment #191029 by al-rawandi on June 10, 2008 at 6:09 am
bucketchemist,
I agree the "gut 'em" comment is a bit reactionary, I would say the only conclusion is to kill these people. There is no reasoning with them. There is no evidence you can bring to the table.
A soldier who had served in Afghanistan mentioned that the Taliban they captured often (about 40-50%) believed the earth was flat. How do you deal with someone who has the intellectual development of a junior member of a cargo cult? How should we reason this. And don't forget they hate us, and that hate will never dissipate.
If you have a chance read a couple of the following:
-"Architect of the Global Jihad" (about Abu Musab al-Suri)
-This month's American Interest
-This month's Journal of International Security Studies
This will outline the growing threat and the nature of the threat.
These people will give us no quarter, they gleefully behead pacifistic aid workers, they should be crushed under foot.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
25. Comment #191033 by hungarianelephant on June 10, 2008 at 6:22 am
14. Comment #191002 by Epinephrine on June 10, 2008 at 4:39 am
It irks me to see that indexes, stadiums and octopuses are all acceptable
"Octopuses" is an acceptable plural and the first listed in the OED. "Octopi" would only be the obvious plural if "octopus" were a second declension noun, which it isn't. The people who want to push this seem to have an agenda. Or is it an agendum?
Right, back to suicide bombers.
Other Comments by hungarianelephant
26. Comment #191039 by PopeStig on June 10, 2008 at 6:30 am
Does anyone know anything about Afghan law and whether these two Imans are likely to face procecution and punishment?Other Comments by PopeStig
27. Comment #191043 by Epinephrine on June 10, 2008 at 6:36 am
Re: Comment #191033 by hungarianelephant on June 10, 2008 at 6:22 am
*** Pedantry Alert ***
"Octopuses" is an acceptable plural and the first listed in the OED. "Octopi" would only be the obvious plural if "octopus" were a second declension noun, which it isn't.
Actually, octopus is Greek, and hence the plural is octopodes.
I deliberately included both Latin and Greek words (thus my reference to mastery of Latin and Greek) to point out how silly it is to expect people to recognise what plural form to use.
Other Comments by Epinephrine
28. Comment #191049 by Layla Nasreddin on June 10, 2008 at 6:43 am
He said his education was at a madrassa run by two imams, Mullah Saleb and Mullah Azizullah. About 50 students between 13 and 22 attended the school, where the syllabus consisted of learning the Koran by heart, interspersed with political lectures.
It is likely that this boy, being Afghan (not Arab), didn't understand a word of what he was memorizing. Nevertheless, consider what might happen when your holy book contains exhortations like, "Allah has purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs in return is the garden of Paradise; they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain" (9:111) and "Let those fight in the cause of Allah Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the cause of Allah, whether he is slain or is victorious, soon shall We give him a great reward." (4:74)
Combine this (doubtless the meaning of these verses was repeated over and over again in the madrasa) with the mullahs' and imams' screeds about how the Americans and British are "enemies of Allah" and that Allah has made it mandatory to fight them in jihad, applying verses like these to the situation, well, what can you expect? All this is pounded into the heads of the boys over and over again, "you must submit to Allah's will, and we know Allah's will -- that you must sacrifice yourself in a 'martyrdom operation' against the enemies of Allah." Oh, and of course anybody who tells you otherwise MUST be from Shaytan, as are any doubts that you might have about the wisdom of this whole situation. What a thoroughly nauseating, disgusting situation.
Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin
29. Comment #191050 by nattyadams on June 10, 2008 at 6:47 am
We should support groups like RAWA (http://www.rawa.org/index.php) so that afghani women, the mothers of poor boys like this, will be educated and the cycle of ignorance and fear can hope to be broken. Other Comments by nattyadams
30. Comment #191053 by al-rawandi on June 10, 2008 at 6:50 am
Layla,
I met a 10 year old Pakistani girl who had memorized almost the entire Qur'an and didn't understand a single word of it. Her doting father bragged endlessly about this great accopmlishment. I was speechless, truly speechless. What a waste of a child's time.
Oh and did you read about the 10 year old who had carried out a suicide attack in Afghanistan a while ago?
Do you have a good apostasy story for me?
Other Comments by al-rawandi
31. Comment #191054 by hungarianelephant on June 10, 2008 at 6:50 am
Oh yes, I forgot to state "Latin". And anyway it assumes of course that we should pluralise all words of Greek origin in a Greek manner.
I suppose the moral of this is that if one wants to be pedantic, it's at least necessary to do it properly.
Personally, I get much more upset about spuriou's apostrophe's.
Other Comments by hungarianelephant
32. Comment #191057 by jimbob on June 10, 2008 at 6:53 am
First, I have to say it's astonishing to find people arguing over spelling trivialities in a thread about child abuse and religion-sponsored murder.The key question I have is why aren't the world's major religious and political leaders -- and the UN -- shouting their disgust at this sort of thing?
Other Comments by jimbob
33. Comment #191067 by black wolf on June 10, 2008 at 7:04 am
rod-the-farmer,you asked if there were schools being set up. I read an article about such a school built by the armed forces for a village. A few days before it was to open, terrorists blew the building to bits. They know that education is their most dangerous enemy.
Other Comments by black wolf
34. Comment #191069 by Frankus1122 on June 10, 2008 at 7:06 am
I like rod-the-farmer's suggestion that we establish schools. The country needs to be brought into the 21st century, at least in terms of thought. Other Comments by Frankus1122
35. Comment #191071 by Layla Nasreddin on June 10, 2008 at 7:11 am
al-rawandi wrote:
Layla,
I met a 10 year old Pakistani girl who had memorized almost the entire Qur'an and didn't understand a single word of it. Her doting father bragged endlessly about this great accopmlishment. I was speechless, truly speechless. What a waste of a child's time.
Oh and did you read about the 10 year old who had carried out a suicide attack in Afghanistan a while ago?
Alas, I have heard of both instances! I've seen videos of (for example) a ten-year old Iranian hafizah (female who has memorized the entire Qur'an) on Youtube; I've read gushing stories about how some child prodigy has the whole Qur'an memorized and what an amazing blessing this is, even if he can't understand a word. Even in American Islamic schools (and I presume British ones), children are made to memorize short surahs (chapters) of the Qur'an; I recall listening to them repeating, say, Surah al-Ikhlas (one of the shortest and most recited)about fifty times in a row while hanging out in the mosque. Harmless, I suppose, like memorizing poetry or the Pledge of Allegiance, but NOT when such rote memorization becomes a substitute for ALL OTHER education!
Do you have a good apostasy story for me?
It's in the Forum (Faith & Religion) under "Agonized Muslim" (read all the way to the end). ;)
I will say, concerning the verses on jihad, that to me they just weren't "real." Women don't usually get into the whole jihad thing (with some exceptions); they are told that "hajj is equivalent to fighting in jihad for women" or that kind of thing. Also, "modern," "liberal" Muslims tend to pass over these verses in the same way that "modern," "liberal" Christians and Jews pass over the ugly bits of the Bible. They're just words on a page, to be filed away under "Irrelevant to my understanding of the religion, which I see as a wonderful thing," if not simply forgotten altogether. That may be why more decent Muslims (and Christians, and Jews) don't speak out -- "that's not part of MY religion!"
Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin
36. Comment #191072 by GordonYKWong on June 10, 2008 at 7:13 am
Al Rawandi -I agree the "gut 'em" comment is a bit reactionary, I would say the only conclusion is to kill these people. There is no reasoning with them. There is no evidence you can bring to the table.I would rather that scientist study the thought processes of these imams and formulate strategies to counter or neutralize their methods. Killing one dozen imams would mean two dozens would take their place.
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37. Comment #191073 by King of NH on June 10, 2008 at 7:16 am
Rod the Farmer:
Perhaps we (western society) need to set up schools in this area, in which multiple subjects could be taught. If I were a young child, I might be much more interested in learning about arithmetic, writing, basic science, and perhaps some basic agriculture skills, than learning the koran and listening to political speeches.
I was listening to BBC Radio (NHPR switches to BBC at night) and they were interviewing a man who had done just this. He has opened several schools in Afganastan to teach a secular education. He seemed to be finding success, but many fundies threaten him and his staff and students. I wish I could provide a link or something. It was a heartwarming story.
"They said God would protect me when the time came."
No, God wouldn't protect him. He would, in fact, die a quick but hideous death, unless his brain was spared the greatest force of the bomb, in which case he could forget about the merciful quick part. Proof that God/Allah was on their side would be if the bombers (no longer suicide) could strap explosives to their chest, detonate them in a crowd, and walk back to camp for another vest. Where does any god fit into the effect simple physics predicts?
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38. Comment #191077 by al-rawandi on June 10, 2008 at 7:27 am
Layla,
Muhammad Ibn Abd al-Wahhab had memorized the Qur'an by age ten. Something special about that age. A professor I had spoke often of a Bosnian boy who had memorized the text by ten as well.
The most annoying thing I have ever encountered, and this just enrages me, is when I ask my Muslim friends about some of these ugly verses (along with the A'isha being 9 years old, etc...). One of my friends who is quite a brilliant guy, kept saying "These issues are asked and answered". I said "Okay where are they asked and answered?"... he just said, "Alex, they are asked and answered." I kept asking where, and I kept getting the same response. Most Muslims just assume some brilliant Islamic scholar somewhere has rationalized this all away, so they can go on feeling good about themselves. It is a scary bit (and really annoying) bit of dogma.
GordonYKWong,
I suspect that there is a great deal of research to be done on the matter. But I am curious, what would you do?
My suggestion was to withdraw our forces from Muslim regions, namely Iraq. Then we can let the blood bath begin. If we walked away from the Middle East regimes would collapse and there would be widespread fighting and death, but this is none of our concern.
My suggestion (more precisely) was to remove the oxygen from the fire, and then stomp out any embers that remain. Stop giving people reasons to hate you, and deal mercilessly with those who continue to act like barbarians.
It is a simple approach. Get unhooked from oil and walk away from the region. Offer economic agreements to any country that has a democracy emerge, and be ready to absolutely level the capital of any theocracy that comes to power (if it threatens the rest of the world).
We certainly cannot win in Afghanistan as long as Pakistan is run by the current group of people, so we might as well get the hell out of there as well.
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39. Comment #191087 by rod-the-farmer on June 10, 2008 at 7:42 am
Re Comment #191067 by black wolf
They know that education is their most dangerous enemy.
As someone pointed out recently on another blog here on RD, Dog ordered Adam & Eve to eat any fruit in the Garden of Eden, except that from one tree......the Tree of Knowledge. One could reasonably suspect priests/imams are all in this together, to hide it !
I remember now about the school being blown up. Anyone know if the Afghanistan climate is acceptable for children to gather in an outdoor class, for a single hour ? It is difficult to blow up an empty space. I wish I spoke the Afghan language, I would be on the next plane to offer my services.
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40. Comment #191088 by black wolf on June 10, 2008 at 7:42 am
I get the impression that Pakistan is gradually coming to its senses, as the crackdowns on radical imams and madrassas seem to be getting more frequent. But that may be just an impression the government wants to give outsiders, balancing foreign support with their slippery position between military rule and theocracy.The bottom line is that the citizens of a country must be convinced of the values of democracy, and that these values are superior to that of Sharia or any other dogmatic system. The people of eastern Europe found the strength in them to overthrow their dictators, because they could see daily on western media how they were dropping behind economically and the improvement promised by socialism wasn't coming.
If the people don't see the need to stop obeying religious authority figures, and find the strength to overcome their fears of divine punishment, they will not embrace democracy.
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41. Comment #191089 by GordonYKWong on June 10, 2008 at 7:42 am
Al Rawandi -My suggestion was to withdraw our forces from Muslim regions, namely Iraq. Then we can let the blood bath begin. If we walked away from the Middle East regimes would collapse and there would be widespread fighting and death, but this is none of our concern.I would like to see these local concerns unravel itself locally, to let the fighting come to an equilibrium so to speak, but given recent evidence, I doubt it.
Look at how the political upheaval in Zimbabwe has affected the political landscape of South Africa. Instability is cancerous.
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42. Comment #191091 by Peacebeuponme on June 10, 2008 at 7:45 am
alIf we walked away from the Middle East regimes would collapse and there would be widespread fighting and death, but this is none of our concern.If the man next door was beating his wife, would that be none of your concern as well?
Get unhooked from oil and walk away from the region.I'm increasingly coming to the view that the oil is ours as much as theirs (I'm from the UK, I have to as we don't have much!)
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43. Comment #191096 by black wolf on June 10, 2008 at 7:54 am
Afghanistan has a diverse climate. It is generally quite dry, but they have anything from blistering heat to freezing cold. A friend of mine is an Afghan who left the country in the late 60s, and he has told me many things about their culture and climate that I had not known.I'm afraid though that certain groups of Taliban and Al-Qaeda wouldn't hesitate to shell such outdoor congregations. What can be done is establish indoor classes at secret locations, but given that children aren't very good at secrecy, the risks are high. They'd need 24h protection in a relatively safe area, which I think isn't a realizable option at this time. The best they can do is educate the children (and the adults who want) a few families at the time, in someone's home. The West can supply them with school materials, but of course that would make those families a likely target of attacks.
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44. Comment #191107 by Lucas on June 10, 2008 at 8:14 am
bucketchemist - Yeah, okay, maybe I was being a little bit extreme, but I really didn't mean that literally. It was a purposefully provocative phrase. But killing people that brainwash children into murdering themselves and others seems fair, and is definitely not the same kind of "evil." If you consider all killing of humans to be equally bad, no matter the circumstance, then there is no point in arguing this any further. al-rawandi - We're on the same page here, I think. I was just exaggerating. Although, have you seen the new Rambo movie? That thing Rambo does to the Myanmar soldier who is about to rape the missionary lady? I would do that to these guys. Seriously. There are some people who are so despicable and detrimental to other living creatures that they should be simply removed from the population. But I think bombing and major warfare is just too imprecise and costly.
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45. Comment #191109 by al-rawandi on June 10, 2008 at 8:18 am
Black Wolf,
Pakistan will NOT come around. For instance they require the Afghan situation for strategic depth against India. Furthermore, Pakistan WANTS a religious state in Afghanistan for certain, if they do not get a religious state it will be a Pashtun state, in this case that would inflame Pashtun sentiments in Pakistan and destabilize the regime. The Pakistanis have a great deal invested in the US being mired in conflict with Muslim fanatics. The ISI in Pakistan has close links with the Taliban, and of course, Musharaf was instrumental there. The Pakistanis are backing off in the NWFP and allowing Taliban elements to run things and carry out their brutal executions.
Gordon,
I agree, instability is contagious, no doubt. These dictatorships may need to fall. But I can certainly entertain the stability argument.
Peace,
Well if the neighbor's wife believes she is religiously obligated to be beaten, there are no police in my neighborhood, and if I intervene I will be suicide bombed, along with my family, and then he will go back to beating his wife, then I would probably just turn the volume up on my TV.
These people are dedicated to killing one another, we certainly aren't stopping them, we are just an alternative target for the time being.
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46. Comment #191114 by Peacebeuponme on June 10, 2008 at 8:41 am
alWell if the neighbor's wife believes she is religiously obligated to be beaten, there are no police in my neighborhood, and if I intervene I will be suicide bombed, along with my family, and then he will go back to beating his wife, then I would probably just turn the volume up on my TV.Point taken. I would contend though that there were more than a few Iraqis who, for the most part just want to go about their day, who quite welcomed the US intervention and the removal of Saddam.
Specifically on Iraq you may be right, but I would like to think powerful nations are compassionate enough to want to liberate people from oppresive regimes, where they can.
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47. Comment #191118 by ukvillafan on June 10, 2008 at 8:55 am
Just because our cousins across the pond cannot spell does not mean that either we or the Oxford English Dictionary should succumb to the laziness that is the American language. Paedophile is a quite straightforward word to spell, as is encyclopaedia, orthopaedic etc. Hmm, thinks, someone ought to produce an Encyclopaedia of Paediatric Orthopaedics, just for the pleasure of the title!
So, Richard, I am with Synchronium on this one.
I say this not because of pedantry but because I believe that "dumbing-down" happens without us helping it along the way and will only happen quicker if we give it aid and succour.
OK, alright, I AM a pedant too! But I will happily split infinitives when necessary!
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48. Comment #191122 by al-rawandi on June 10, 2008 at 9:00 am
Peace,
I agree, it is a duty of powerful nations to assist those countries that want and need genuine assistance.
I think that we should look at polls in Iraq and see what most people want. Most people have taken to hating the American presence. The problem is that terrorists hide amongst civilians and then fire on US soldiers. The soldiers must return fire, and inevitably kill civilians. The Iraqis don't appear to get it, that the reason these civilians are killed is because civilians tolerate terrorists operating amongst them. This or the civilians are too scared to act against the terrorists, by informing or physically forcing them to leave.
It is a bad cycle.
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49. Comment #191149 by Layla Nasreddin on June 10, 2008 at 9:45 am
al-rawandi wrote:
The most annoying thing I have ever encountered, and this just enrages me, is when I ask my Muslim friends about some of these ugly verses (along with the A'isha being 9 years old, etc...). One of my friends who is quite a brilliant guy, kept saying "These issues are asked and answered". I said "Okay where are they asked and answered?"... he just said, "Alex, they are asked and answered." I kept asking where, and I kept getting the same response. Most Muslims just assume some brilliant Islamic scholar somewhere has rationalized this all away, so they can go on feeling good about themselves. It is a scary bit (and really annoying) bit of dogma.
And since the ugly bits aren't "really" dealt with, or explicitly disavowed, they sit there, festering, waiting for some more literal-minded believer to take them seriously -- like Ayatollah Khomeini lowering the age of marriage to nine after coming into power in Iran, because that was what the Prophet did.
I suppose in this sense the "moderates" (of any religion) are part of the problem, especially if they seem more annoyed by other people bringing up the issue than they are about the abuses themselves (not just among Muslims but also among Christians and Jews). "We're not all like that!" "Well, what about all those statements in the holy book?" "They're interpreting it wrong!" "They say YOU'RE interpreting them wrong!" "You just want to make our religion look bad! How dare you!" Ugh.
As usual, I'm of two minds about this: my feelings rebel against the notion that my moderate, liberal friends who happen to be Muslim or Christian or Jewish are in fact just giving cover to the lunatics, but rationally I know there is quite a bit of truth to it -- especially when they don't actually engage the issue but just hope it goes away, or something. Sigh.
Re: spelling pedantry. I can see why Noah Webster decided to be different...just to annoy those stuffed-shirt Brits. (Just kidding!)
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50. Comment #191157 by al-rawandi on June 10, 2008 at 9:54 am
Layla,
Khomeini wrote that in his Tafsirvasiyoleh, and he wrote that it was permissible to engage in anything but vaginal sex with a woman so long as she was no long radi'yya (breast fed).
I mean ANYTHING but vaginal sex. But once she turned 9, vaginal sex was, of course, permissible.
The moderates do run cover for whackos. They feel like criticizing the whackos is just criticizing their religion, and even themselves. Apologetics for Islam is apologetics for the same violence done in the name of these verses and Islam in general.
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1. Comment #190975 by Richard Dawkins on June 10, 2008 at 3:04 am
In the paper edition of The Independent, the headline on the second page is a quote from the boy:-The mullahs who groomed him are guilty of a child abuse that is every bit as bad as the sexual abuse perpetrated by most pedophiles. But also guilty are the teachers at his Pakistan madrassah (both imams) where It was surely there that he learned that he must do whatever God requires him to do, and it was surely there that he learned to believe mullahs who told him what God required him to do. If you teach a child that certain truths, lacking evidence, are infallible, and if you teach him that certain individuals called mullahs are qualified to tell you what those truths are, you should not be surprised if he becomes a suicide bomber. This is as clear a case of child abuse as you'll find.
Richard
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