1. Comment #191568 by DamnDirtyApe on June 11, 2008 at 8:47 am

Signed.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

2. Comment #191571 by decius on June 11, 2008 at 8:49 am

Why not allowing foreign citizens to sign, perhaps on a secondary list?

Other Comments by decius

3. Comment #191574 by Border Collie on June 11, 2008 at 8:55 am

Hell exists. It exists in the actions, proclamations, threats and abuse of the hell-fire-and-damnation fundamentalists.

Other Comments by Border Collie

4. Comment #191575 by vertigo25 on June 11, 2008 at 8:56 am

We would not tolerate it if religion were not involved.

Ummmm...

Doesn't that kind of ignore generations of folk tales such as Little Red Riding Hood, The Boy Who Cried Wolf, Chicken Little, etc.; as well as a ton of popular media that have nothing to do with religion?

Scaring children with stories both true and fictional is not synonymous with religion, nor is it exclusive to it.

Should we attempt to pass laws that prevent parents from telling their children to finish their peas because there are people starving in other parts of the world? Or how about telling them things like "I swear Timmy! If you don't get in this house right this instant, you are *never* going out again! Do you hear me?"

I'd say it's a safe bet that most people on this forum have been exposed this "disgusting" "child abuse."

*sigh*

Nothing irritates me more when I see people whose stance I agree with making horrible arguments for their case.

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5. Comment #191582 by humanist on June 11, 2008 at 9:04 am

Doesn't that kind of ignore generations of folk tales such as Little Red Riding Hood, The Boy Who Cried Wolf, Chicken Little, etc.; as well as a ton of popular media that have nothing to do with religion?

If your parents presented these stories to you as fact, they're just as guilty of abuse as the religious parents in my eyes.

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6. Comment #191585 by NormanDoering on June 11, 2008 at 9:10 am

If they'd like some testimony on how growing up with Hell preaching effected me, here's a two part essay I wrote over a decade ago -- when there was not net as we know it today:

http://www.beyondweird.com/occult/notcrst1.html
http://www.beyondweird.com/occult/notcrst2.html

Other Comments by NormanDoering

7. Comment #191590 by mordacious1 on June 11, 2008 at 9:15 am

If you sign this, you will burn in Hell!! Your skin will peel off for eternity (don't worry they have lots of extra skin down there).

For those of you up north:

If you sign this, you will freeze in Hell!

edit: So where's the american version?

Other Comments by mordacious1

8. Comment #191591 by Steve Zara on June 11, 2008 at 9:15 am

Comment #191575 by vertigo25

For there to be any equivalence, you would need to have children living in communities who base their lives on the Chicken Little story. Who have elders who preach the truth of that story once a week. There would need to be schools of Chickeners where every morning, children are read sections of the story, and told how this should effect their behaviour.

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9. Comment #191595 by HourglassMemory on June 11, 2008 at 9:21 am

You have to be a british citizen?....
oh well.
Why not create a new one where you accept the signing of everyone who wants to sign?
After all this form of child abuse isn't ONLY happening in Britain.

Other Comments by HourglassMemory

10. Comment #191600 by errm... on June 11, 2008 at 9:35 am

I signed, but they'll weasle their way out of it with definitions and political correctness. Would anyone want to go as far as the USSR which, according The Gulag Archipeligo, had very severe penalties for parents indoctrinating children so long as it wasn't Marxism/Leninism? How far is it fair to go? Let's concentrate on exposing the lies that they tell for what they are!

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11. Comment #191621 by 82abhilash on June 11, 2008 at 10:24 am

Truth is not democracy. I do not see any co-relation between the number of signatures on this petition and the validity of what is claimed in it.

Personally I think threatening children with hell fire is child abuse. But that is my ethical intuition speaking. And it has been wrong at times.

So I pose questions, are there studies documenting the long term ill effects of threatening children with hell fires? And what do those studies show?

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12. Comment #191643 by Eric Blair on June 11, 2008 at 11:44 am

I find it disturbing that a scientist like Richard Dawkins would support a vague measure like this that is apparently unsupported by evidence-based research ("talk to people who have experienced it"?) and that capitalizes on our visceral emotional response to the suffering of children.

I am not concerned that any government would actually do anything with this as it's far too vague, and the issue would be a political minefield even if a government had an inkling as to how a revised law would deal with the issue of "religious bullying."

By all means, let's do the research and see what the true connections are between psychological trauma in children and adults, and their religious upbringing.

Then we could look at what proportion of the population it affects who wouldn't be addressed through existing measures.

And finally we could look at how to address the remaining issue, in realistic, pragmatic ways that don't open the door to abuse through overreaction from whatever agency would enforce such measures.

EB

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13. Comment #191653 by Mat on June 11, 2008 at 12:05 pm

I was terrified by extreme tales of pain, hellfire, damnation etc as a child at school (an American school). They worried me greatly at the time, and yes, I believe they ARE abusive. However, in my case it hastened my conversion - the severity of the punishments were just totally crazily wrong for pretty much anything a normal 8-year old could get up to. So I realised that it was all bull - helped by having 100% athiest parents of course!

But I also think that it is the wrong place to start, trying to involve the government. More dubious laws to go with the severe restrictions on privacy and liberty that the UK already suffers? I'm not entirely convinced that it's the right point of attack.

Although I DO believe this issue should be publicised and debated openly, far and wide, because mental cruelty is as bad, if not worse, than physical.

I even took my 4-year old daughter out of a school here in South Africa because she came home scared of the devil, and had difficulty sleeping etc. So I've seen the effect it can have - on me, and on my daughter. But to turn to the government? Not sure.

Other Comments by Mat

14. Comment #191660 by Cartomancer on June 11, 2008 at 12:16 pm

But many psychological studies on the mental health effects of frightening children HAVE already been undertaken. Just ask any child psychologist. I think it's a fairly unremarkable fact that repeatedly threatening children with horrible punishments is very damaging to their development. The point is that religious teachings have always gone under the radar as far as this is concerned thanks to the undue respect religion wishes to claim for itself in our societies.

As such this petition is not trying to substitute democratic vote for psychological study, it's trying to remove unthinking hypocrisy from the way we deal with mental health issues. I think it is a very appropriate too for the purpose.

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15. Comment #191667 by Prankster on June 11, 2008 at 12:25 pm

I'd gladly sign-however the level of religious mental torture or abuse or otherwise,inflicted on children, needs to be measured or proved surely?

Sorry but the premise while laudible, is a little too vague for to sign this petition at present.

Prof Dawkins et al may say religious indoctrination is a form of abuse, but there's no tangible evidence or published proof I can find at present to make me want to sign for now. However give me proof or evidence and I'll step down from my metaphorical fence sitting and decide what to do

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16. Comment #191686 by Paula Kirby on June 11, 2008 at 1:00 pm

I agree that it's horribly vague and highly unlikely to result in any government action. I've still signed it, though, for the simple reason that it's an opportunity to let the government know that an increasing number of us are fed up to the back teeth with religion. Being supportive of religion has tended to be seen as the safe option for governments - the more of us who sign petitions such as this one, the sooner I hope they'll realise that times have changed and that standing up to religion will not necessarily be a vote-loser.

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17. Comment #191692 by Prankster on June 11, 2008 at 1:09 pm

Comment #191686 Paula Kirby

I see you've signed but are people doing this as a reaction against religious indoctrination as a form of abuse or religion as a whole?

I think this distinction needs to be made, still too vague for me I'm afraid so I wont be signing.

Other Comments by Prankster

18. Comment #191693 by alexmzk on June 11, 2008 at 1:11 pm

i won't sign this.

in fact, i'm against the idea of making this a law. of course i don't respect the idea of parents teaching their children Hell, but i will fight for their right to do so.
i will also fight for my (and everyone else's) right to tell the parents why they must stop doing such a needlessly immoral thing, and i'll fight for the rights of those parents to try and justify their reasons for doing so.

i will also fight for their right to PARTY, should the issue arise.

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19. Comment #191718 by phil rimmer on June 11, 2008 at 1:49 pm

This is politically dumb and may weaken otherwise good laws. First, and trivially the mention of damnation etc. is way too narrow. Examples related to harm by witchcraft would help here. Rather better than charging in like this, which smacks of grandstanding, it would be better to test the existing laws and see if a real case of such mental torture could be found. If one can, a test case could show if the law was deficient and needed any amendment. A sad failure might also demonstrate from the evidence collected that real harm is being done out there.

Politically more astute, and probably more effective in stopping the problem would be to petition for a more coherent RE & Philosophy program in schools. (As I understand it, RE is the only subject where the curriculum is decided locally by "Interested Parties"....) Terrorised kids may find more help from terror inoculating lessons at school.

"Dawkins fights for better RE lessons in school" has legs.

PS. Remember an Established (read Nationalised) Church is a crippled church. (You really don't want a free market in this instance.) Lets get a good RE and philosophy section in the National Curriculum.

Remember also that it may be very difficult to prove to the child herself that she has been damaged by such mental bullying. (Broken limbs are a lot easier here.) Any punishment of the parent will heap damage upon damage. The child may think its all her fault for being disobedient and wicked. It could be hell.

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20. Comment #191726 by Frankus1122 on June 11, 2008 at 2:12 pm

Comment #191585 by NormanDoering

...here's a two part essay I wrote over a decade ago -- when there was not net as we know it today:

And then from the site linked to:

Only 5.25" DSDD floppy disks are available at this time.

Holy cow!
I remember those. They were actyually flopply.
That was only 15 years ago.
I have a 4cmX 1cm 4G flask drive around my neck.

As to this petition:
It is interesting to note there are good arguments on both sides here. Unfortunately, I can't find any reference to it in my Atheist Handbook and I am at a loss as to what to do about it.
Although I do like this from philrimmer:

Terrorised kids may find more help from terror inoculating lessons at school.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

21. Comment #191731 by notsobad on June 11, 2008 at 2:20 pm

I am not concerned that any government would actually do anything with this as it's far too vague, and the issue would be a political minefield even if a government had an inkling as to how a revised law would deal with the issue of "religious bullying."

I agree.

And finally we could look at how to address the remaining issue, in realistic, pragmatic ways that don't open the door to abuse through overreaction from whatever agency would enforce such measures.

Indeed. We need diplomacy not force. Talk about it (in schools no less).

Other Comments by notsobad

22. Comment #191734 by Goldy on June 11, 2008 at 2:25 pm

Maybe I'm lucky - parents not too religious. But all the Goddites had nothing against what i got as a child.....Struwwelpeter!
http://www.bugpowder.com/andy/e.hoffmann.html

Other Comments by Goldy

23. Comment #191735 by rod-the-farmer on June 11, 2008 at 2:27 pm

Re Comment #191726 by Frankus1122
You have a flask drive around your neck ? Wow. You must be one of those transitional fossils we read about, the one between a human and a St. Bernard. Wait....wait....Dog !!!!! I bow-wow down before you.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

24. Comment #191751 by Kentrel on June 11, 2008 at 3:34 pm

I would really like some hard evidence that this really is child abuse. I was raised Catholic before I became an atheist and I don't even see any kind of harmful psychological effects that can be sourced back to a "hellfire" religious upbringing. My experience is only anecdotal of course, but we really really need hard evidence from psychologists before we repeat this "child abuse" claim, ad infinitum.

Its hard for people who don't think religion is the "root of all evil" not to roll their eyes at that. Just think of your reaction when you see this ad from PETA

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/telegraph/multimedia/archive/00666/peta_666287n.jpg

Does it make you roll your eyes? Can you spot the obvious fallacies in the advertisement? Now, think for a moment how a similar ad about religion might look without hard evidence from the psychological research community.

What would your responses be when someone pointed out some research like this in response to that petition? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_religion#Religion_and_health

Ask yourself honestly, is there really evidence to back up that claim?

I'm no fan of religion, but I would like hard evidence to demonstrate it is indeed child abuse before I sign any petition.

Other Comments by Kentrel

25. Comment #191757 by Frankus1122 on June 11, 2008 at 3:46 pm

rod-the-farmer,

You have a flask drive around your neck ?

Yeah, hic!
However, due to its small size (1cm X 4cm) it does not really hold a lot of booze.
:)

Other Comments by Frankus1122

26. Comment #191773 by Szymanowski on June 11, 2008 at 4:38 pm

Ergh, that's a horrible petition. "Harassment"?! Only if people are not free to walk away.

He who would trade liberty, etc.

Other Comments by Szymanowski

27. Comment #191774 by Vaal on June 11, 2008 at 4:39 pm

Good points here, both for and against. You could argue that the parents want their children to be aware of Hell. They honestly deeply believe that they will go to Hell, as they were taught to believe the same by their parents and religious leaders, and would do everything they can to prevent such a horror come to their beloved child.

However, I was bought up with the threat of Hell from our local preacher, and although I recognized it as utter cods wallop from a bullying and nasty proselytizer, I saw the effects on some of my friends, who were genuinely traumatized.

There was also an appalling TV program recently showing a Jesus camp in America, where very young children were put through a disgusting evangelical boot camp where adults gloried in terrifying the poor kids by leaving them in no doubt they were going to Hell unless they believed God loved them. All carrot and stick, in a vulgar, sick and very effective propaganda campaign. That these children were crying and petrified meant nothing to the adults who were only concerned about recruitment, in a vile campaign the Nazi's would be proud of.

So, yes, I have signed the petition. Not that I think government legislation will come of it, but that hopefully the meme of threatening children with Hellfire will be regarded as repugnant and unacceptable by all responsible adults. If it raises the Zeitgeist, all well and good.

Other Comments by Vaal

28. Comment #191785 by Andrew Stich on June 11, 2008 at 5:40 pm

I'm surprised by how negative the response has been. It's vague, and that is a problem, but not a very big one. Even if successful, it might not have any use, but even so, it has good intent, and I do not see that there could be any negative consequences to signing it. And while, in general, it may (MAY) be said that religion is psychologically beneficial, one can see very clearly that earnest belief in hell is not.

I'm very open to refutation, as always. Go ahead.

As a sidenote, I'm not British.

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29. Comment #191786 by mordacious1 on June 11, 2008 at 6:00 pm

I've always thought that threatening your kids with hellfire or anything else that isn't true like this, is a sure sign that the parents lack any parenting skills whatsoever. This goes for corporal punishment too. The problem is, these guys are not as smart as their kids, so they have to result to something "scarey" to get CONTROL. It backfires later when the kid realizes the parent can't control him/her that way anymore and metaphoricaly gives the parents the finger.

With a rational upbringing the child will grow into adulthood respecting their parents.

Unfortunately, I don't think you can legislate away stupidity. If you outlaw corporal punishment, then they make threats. If you outlaw threats, then they will use something else just as abusive. Therefore: IQ tests for parents!

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30. Comment #191790 by utelme on June 11, 2008 at 6:28 pm

If I was a British citizen I'd sign the petition in an instant. The hell concept has obviously affected many adults who were once children themselves and are now having to cope with the guilt and fear imposed on them in their childhood. Once the sting of this poisonous concept has been felt, it's extremely difficult to permanently erase. One only has to read some of the comments on this blog to see that many here have been affected in this vile way.

Other Comments by utelme

31. Comment #191791 by comet halley on June 11, 2008 at 6:52 pm

Fight fire with fire!
Get the message out.
"THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF HELL"
Kids are not dumb.

Other Comments by comet halley

32. Comment #191796 by fizhburn on June 11, 2008 at 7:08 pm

Andrew Stich said

...in general, it may (MAY) be said that religion is psychologically beneficial...

I suppose that would depend on what being "psychologically beneficial" is. If you mean if makes people feel secure or warm and fuzzy or something, then maybe. But since religion is false, and false beliefs are bad (in some sense), it is also psychologically harmful. Furthermore the actions that people are prompted to undertake, such as denying truths of science, because of this supposedly beneficial belief, leads to a psychological state of being out of touch with reality. Such disconnection is associated with psychological pathologies like schizophrenia. It is a sign of poor psychological health. If that is correct we cannot agree that it is in general or even often "psychologically beneficial" on balance.

I'm not sure what to make of a policy that seems targeted at hellfire specifically and not more generally at religious indoctrination. Political expediency must play a role.

I'd like to see some studies exploring the relation between childhood religious indoctrination (of various types) and psychological pathology in later life before deciding whether hellfire is just an extreme form of "I'll ground you if you're not good" or should constitute abuse (TGD contains anecdotal information in favor of some psychological damage in some cases).

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33. Comment #191797 by Andrew Stich on June 11, 2008 at 7:22 pm

fizhburn:

I agree with most of what you have said. I don't think that merely being religious can be called "psychosis" (as Freud put it), or can be compared to schizophrenia in a very meaningful way (schizophrenia is a state of mind that muddies one's perception of truth; religion is an (inaccurate) perception of truth, which leads to a peculiar state of mind, through which other beliefs are muddled), but I do agree that religion does lead to being out of touch with reality.

By "psychologically beneficial", I meant that it encourages optimism (for better or worse perception of truth) and social support (again, for better or worse perception of truth).

I was contrasting this to the particular belief in Hell, which encourages just the opposite.

For the record, I do not think that religion has any place in society. Everyone, please don't misinterpret me. I'm not saying it should be eradicated, either, or that it should not be tolerated. I'm saying that we would be better off without it, because one's beliefs being true is, in principle, more important than one's beliefs being consoling.

Other Comments by Andrew Stich

34. Comment #191798 by fizhburn on June 11, 2008 at 7:23 pm

@mordacious1

Don't we have a god-given right to pop out as many children as we want no matter what circumstances we raise (or not) them in?

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35. Comment #191799 by mordacious1 on June 11, 2008 at 7:29 pm

fizhburn

Nope.

But you know that.

Other Comments by mordacious1

36. Comment #191802 by mmurray on June 11, 2008 at 8:03 pm

If you outlaw corporal punishment, then they make threats.

Teaching children about hell wasn't a response to outlawing corporal punishment. They used to make threats and use corporal punishment. For a nice example have a look at James Joyce's Portrait of an Artist as a Young Man

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext03/prtrt11.txt

search in this text file for `eternity' and read the surrounding text.

Michael

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37. Comment #191804 by fizhburn on June 11, 2008 at 8:21 pm

@mordacious1

Well you start agreeing with people when they're all, "Some people oughtn't'a be allowed to have kids," and then you're right on to eugenics. I mean, isn't that what we're all thinking here? Eugenics is good?

Or then again not so much :p

Seriously though: are population trends regarding reproduction rates relative to education and socioeconomic status not the least bit worrisome---and I'm not restricting the question to you, mordacious1? First they have a bunch of kids, then they brainwash them... excellent.

@Andrew Stich

According to teh Wiki, schizophrenia is

a psychiatric diagnosis that describes a mental illness characterized by impairments in the perception or expression of reality, most commonly manifesting as auditory hallucinations, paranoid or bizarre delusions or disorganized speech and thinking in the context of significant social or occupational dysfunction.

Or in other words an extreme case of disconnect from reality coupled with impaired thinking processes. Surely theist visitors to this site occasionally exhibit such behavior in low (or high, viz. wooter) levels. Not to suggest religion causes schizophrenia, which is apparently at least partly down to genetic factors.

Other Comments by fizhburn

38. Comment #191807 by mordacious1 on June 11, 2008 at 8:56 pm

fizhburn

They can have as many kids as they like, unless a court says they can't, ie. condition of probation for crack use, but it isn't a "god-given" right.

Other Comments by mordacious1

39. Comment #191810 by passutoba on June 11, 2008 at 9:12 pm

haha Goldy....I was thinking about Struwwelpeter the other day too! Looking back at the wikipedia entry re-ignited the terrors of old! I was truly shit-scared of those stories, especially the fat kid who was fussy about food and just wasted away to nothing, and of course the boy who has his fingers cut off.....was it 19th century? Seems to be from a time when it was fine to terrify children in any number of ways......

Other Comments by passutoba

40. Comment #191816 by Godless Savage on June 11, 2008 at 10:19 pm

Maybe I'm lucky - parents not too religious. But all the Goddites had nothing against what i got as a child.....Struwwelpeter!

I was truly shit-scared of those stories, especially the fat kid who was fussy about food and just wasted away to nothing, and of course the boy who has his fingers cut off.....was it 19th century?

YAAAAYYYYY! One of my most treasured possessions EVER is a copy of Slovenly Peter (the English version, obviously). I even took it to school when I was about 8 for Show and Tell. It was given to my mother when she was young (as a used copy)...and I used to look at the stuff in that book as a kid and go 'WTF???' The long-legged scissor man that came after the suck-a-thumb kid was scary, but my favorites were the cry-baby girl (eyes fell out on the ground) and the girl who was too playful and broke her leg...literally! (with her brother bearing the bleeding, severed limb behind her stretcher). The best part was the notation in the front that only good boys and girls would be able to read these stories. No doubt because the bad ones had no eyes and were crippled in bed, or dead.

I adore that book. It's so very demented, and really, only a less subtle version of what kids are fed today via religion.

I think I must go pull that one off the bookshelf and have a look....classic!

Other Comments by Godless Savage

41. Comment #191817 by passutoba on June 11, 2008 at 10:24 pm

It shows its age with the giant who dips little children into the ink well to make them....black! 'If you do this son, you'll be turned into a negro!'

Other Comments by passutoba

42. Comment #191821 by Godless Savage on June 11, 2008 at 10:53 pm

Interesting....in looking at the wikipedia entry and others, the book seems much shorter than I remember. Mine is about 80 pages, and has many more stories. (It looks exactly like this: http://www.blueharvestfarm.com/pic/136a4197.jpg except mine is sort of an olive green.) Then I found this:

SLOVENLY PETER OR CHEERFUL STORIES AND FUNNY PICTURES for good little folks
Philadelphia & Toronto, Winston Co. N D Colored illustrations to each page ...(80pp but unpaginated) titlepage supplied in facsimile. ....First 23pp have Hoffman's stories and pictures; 24-90 are NEW but IMITATIVE stories depicting gluttony, liars, thief, Laziness, cry baby, envious, dirty, cruel, slovenly, proud, discontent, idleness, heedlessness, simplicity, prying etc. The last 5 stories are less like Hoffman though one is about truancy, all illustrated. In total 40 Cautionary poems. Seems never to have been issued in England and not in the British Library.

Looks like we Americans found new horrors to inflict on our kids. Go figure. :p

Other Comments by Godless Savage

43. Comment #191822 by ghost of numf-el on June 11, 2008 at 11:17 pm

signed

Bet there'll be some weasling out of it on the grounds of religious freedom.
Cuntards.

Other Comments by ghost of numf-el

44. Comment #191823 by Ian on June 11, 2008 at 11:20 pm

Signed. Thank you.

I find it disturbing that a scientist like Richard Dawkins would support a vague measure like this that is apparently unsupported by evidence-based research ("talk to people who have experienced it"?) and that capitalizes on our visceral emotional response to the suffering of children.

1. Try listening to what Richard has actually said these last few years. He always makes himself clear.

2. Watch the interview with Jill Mytton on the Root of All Evil interviews DVD.

Whether or not the UK government actually does something or not isn't really important. The important thing is to affect the zietgiest. It's another case of raising consciousness.

Regards,

(-: Ian :-)

Other Comments by Ian

45. Comment #191829 by phil rimmer on June 12, 2008 at 12:19 am

I would dearly love to sign but, I repeat, this is not politically astute. It will backfire. A hellfire religite will demand a quid pro quo of not allowing kids be to be terrorised with stories about the meaninglessness of life or some such nonsense, and the thing will spiral into mush for lack of definitive evidence.

If we are to get political (and I wish we bloody would) we can do so much better than this.

THE place to start in the UK is education. We must rein back Faith Schools. We must improve the quality of education in the areas of critical thinking skills, morality, civic behaviour etc. The political rhetoric would be-

"RE and Philosophy, Education to heal a broken society."

Stop rearranging the deck-chairs.

EDIT I think our Political Wing (We need one!) should be called the Evidence Party lest we forget ourselves. Unless we can demonstrate fairly to others, with corroborated evidence, we get down in the mud with the rest of them.

Edited for spelling. Reign indeed!

Other Comments by phil rimmer

46. Comment #191844 by Logicel on June 12, 2008 at 1:23 am

Chronic/acute stress during childhood results in high levels of cortisol being secreted, which can play a detrimental role in later life, physically and mentally/emotionally. (Disclaimer: I have not kept up on this research, perhaps this perspective has now been modified).

Keeping in tune with Phil Rimmer's approach, a test case is what we need. We have existing laws to prosecute on the basis of child abuse/torture/injury, let's not re-invent the wheel, let's get instead the already existing wheels of justice rolling. This approach is similar to not having special laws to prosecute Islamic terrorists, but to prosecute them on the basis of existing laws.

Regardless, if I could, I would sign this petition, per the consciousness raising aspects which have been discussed by other commenters.

Other Comments by Logicel

47. Comment #191848 by AllanW on June 12, 2008 at 1:50 am

Goddamnit, Phil Rimmer! Have you been reading my mind while I'm sleep? Almost all of your excellent points are exactly the ones that have been rattling around in my head for awhile.

The only difference being that the political party should be called 'Reason' in my opinion. I've already got the outline for a novel written about how the party is formed in preparation for the elections in 2010, sweeps to power through a combination of clear expertise in many fields and voter disgust at the current parties then goes on to deliver policy direction and execution that in five years transforms UK society.

You'll be glad to hear that in the book, RD is approached and becomes one of the first high-profile members of the party and is given a substantial role when the party is elected to government.

Other Comments by AllanW

48. Comment #191871 by phil rimmer on June 12, 2008 at 3:22 am

AllanW

I love books with happy endings. You've made your first sale! Now if only I could order it through RD.net.

PS. REASON. Great name for a party. Has a nice double edged meaning, with its implication of purpose. I can see the slogans now....

Reason is reason enough.

Get writing.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

49. Comment #191878 by davorg on June 12, 2008 at 3:31 am

You have to be a british citizen?....
oh well.
Why not create a new one where you accept the signing of everyone who wants to sign?
After all this form of child abuse isn't ONLY happening in Britain.

In case it's not clear, the site where the petition is based is an official UK government site. For that reason, it only takes signatures from British citizens and residents. Once the petition deadline has passed, the signatories will all get an official response from the government.

Of course that response will be hand-wavy and waffly in the extreme, but at least a civil servant will spend time composing it.

If you want to start a similar petition on another site then feel free. But you won't get a response from the British government :-)

Other Comments by davorg

50. Comment #191880 by hungarianelephant on June 12, 2008 at 3:42 am

45. Comment #191829 by phil rimmer on June 12, 2008 at 12:19 am

THE place to start in the UK is education. We must reign back Faith Schools. We must improve the quality of education in the areas of critical thinking skills, morality, civic behaviour etc. The political rhetoric would be-

"RE and Philosophy, Education to heal a broken society."

Stop rearranging the deck-chairs.

Phil - I've taken to regarding your posts as compulsory reading. Just thought you ought to know.

The Reason Party sounds like a great idea, though I suspect it wouldn't be elected for a second term. We all build delusions of some description. Are any of us really prepared to apply critical thinking consistently throughout our lives? I would think that anyone who tried to do this from a position of power would quickly find him/herself prodding sacred cows, and swiftly removed. Still, even one term might be enough to get rid of some of the accrued excrement in the way our soceity is run.

49. Comment #191878 by davorg on June 12, 2008 at 3:31 am

Of course that response will be hand-wavy and waffly in the extreme, but at least a civil servant will spend time composing it.

Then why do they all look like they came from the same random text generator?

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