Print
Report: Troubling texts at Va. Islamic school
by MSBC
Thanks to Clayton Smith for the link.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25106145/
Report: Troubling texts at Va. Islamic school
The books say it's OK for Muslims to kill adulterers and converts
McLEAN, Va. - Textbooks at a private Islamic school in northern Virginia teach students that it is permissible for Muslims to kill adulterers and converts from Islam, according to a federal investigation released Wednesday.
Other passages in the school's textbooks state that "the Jews conspired against Islam and its people" and that Muslims are permitted to take the lives and property of those deemed "polytheists."
The passages were found in selected textbooks used during the 2007-08 school year by the Islamic Saudi Academy, which teaches 900 students in grades K-12 at two campuses in Alexandria and Fairfax and receives much of its funding from the Saudi government.
The academy has come under scrutiny from critics who allege that it fosters an intolerant brand of Islam similar to that taught in the conservative Saudi kingdom. In the review, the panel recommended that the school make all of its textbooks available to the State Department so changes can be made before the next school year.
School was recommended for closure
The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, a panel formed by Congress, last year recommended that the school be closed amid concerns that it promotes violence and too closely mimics the conservative Saudi educational system.
The commission made its recommendation last year to close the school even though it had not reviewed the textbooks. Now that some have been reviewed, "we feel more confident that the potential problems we flagged before really are there," said the commission's spokeswoman, Judith Ingram.
School officials have long denied that the academy fosters intolerance. It has acknowledged that some of the Saudi textbooks contain harsh language, but says that the texts have improved in recent years and are revised as needed by the academy before being distributed to students.
School officials and the State Department did not immediately respond to phone calls and an e-mail seeking comment Wednesday.
The commission said it obtained 17 of the academy's textbooks through a variety of channels, including from members of Congress. The texts did appear to contain numerous revisions, including pages that were removed or passages that were whited out, but numerous troubling passages remained, according to the panel:
* The authors of a 12th-grade text on Quranic interpretation state that apostates (those who convert from Islam), adulterers and people who murder Muslims can be permissibly killed.
* The authors of a 12th-grade text on monotheism write that "(m)ajor polytheism makes blood and wealth permissible," meaning that a Muslim can take with impunity the life and property of someone believed guilty of polytheism. According to the panel, the strict Saudi interpretation of polytheism includes Shiite and Sufi Muslims as well as Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists.
* A social studies text offers the view that Jews were responsible for the split between Sunni and Shiite Muslims: "The cause of the discord: The Jews conspired against Islam and its people. A sly, wicked person who sinfully and deceitfully professed Islam infiltrated (the Muslims)."
More generally, the panel found that the academy textbooks hold the view that the Muslim world was strong when united under a single caliph, the Arabic language and the Sunni creed, and that Muslims have grown weak because of foreign influence and internal divisions.
The commission's findings issued come a month after the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors voted unanimously to extend the academy's lease for its main campus, which sits on county property.
The county conducted its own study of the textbooks last year at the request of Supervisor Gerald Hyland, whose district encompasses the academy.
Hyland and the county never released results of what they had found, but Hyland said in approving the lease that he is comfortable with the school's teachings, though he did so with a qualification.
"I would be less than frank if I didn't tell you that the curriculum does contain references to the Quran, which, if taken out of context and read literally, would cause come concern," Hyland said at the meeting at which the lease was extended.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25106145/
Report: Troubling texts at Va. Islamic school
The books say it's OK for Muslims to kill adulterers and converts
McLEAN, Va. - Textbooks at a private Islamic school in northern Virginia teach students that it is permissible for Muslims to kill adulterers and converts from Islam, according to a federal investigation released Wednesday.
Other passages in the school's textbooks state that "the Jews conspired against Islam and its people" and that Muslims are permitted to take the lives and property of those deemed "polytheists."
The passages were found in selected textbooks used during the 2007-08 school year by the Islamic Saudi Academy, which teaches 900 students in grades K-12 at two campuses in Alexandria and Fairfax and receives much of its funding from the Saudi government.
The academy has come under scrutiny from critics who allege that it fosters an intolerant brand of Islam similar to that taught in the conservative Saudi kingdom. In the review, the panel recommended that the school make all of its textbooks available to the State Department so changes can be made before the next school year.
School was recommended for closure
The U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom, a panel formed by Congress, last year recommended that the school be closed amid concerns that it promotes violence and too closely mimics the conservative Saudi educational system.
The commission made its recommendation last year to close the school even though it had not reviewed the textbooks. Now that some have been reviewed, "we feel more confident that the potential problems we flagged before really are there," said the commission's spokeswoman, Judith Ingram.
School officials have long denied that the academy fosters intolerance. It has acknowledged that some of the Saudi textbooks contain harsh language, but says that the texts have improved in recent years and are revised as needed by the academy before being distributed to students.
School officials and the State Department did not immediately respond to phone calls and an e-mail seeking comment Wednesday.
The commission said it obtained 17 of the academy's textbooks through a variety of channels, including from members of Congress. The texts did appear to contain numerous revisions, including pages that were removed or passages that were whited out, but numerous troubling passages remained, according to the panel:
* The authors of a 12th-grade text on Quranic interpretation state that apostates (those who convert from Islam), adulterers and people who murder Muslims can be permissibly killed.
* The authors of a 12th-grade text on monotheism write that "(m)ajor polytheism makes blood and wealth permissible," meaning that a Muslim can take with impunity the life and property of someone believed guilty of polytheism. According to the panel, the strict Saudi interpretation of polytheism includes Shiite and Sufi Muslims as well as Christians, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists.
* A social studies text offers the view that Jews were responsible for the split between Sunni and Shiite Muslims: "The cause of the discord: The Jews conspired against Islam and its people. A sly, wicked person who sinfully and deceitfully professed Islam infiltrated (the Muslims)."
More generally, the panel found that the academy textbooks hold the view that the Muslim world was strong when united under a single caliph, the Arabic language and the Sunni creed, and that Muslims have grown weak because of foreign influence and internal divisions.
The commission's findings issued come a month after the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors voted unanimously to extend the academy's lease for its main campus, which sits on county property.
The county conducted its own study of the textbooks last year at the request of Supervisor Gerald Hyland, whose district encompasses the academy.
Hyland and the county never released results of what they had found, but Hyland said in approving the lease that he is comfortable with the school's teachings, though he did so with a qualification.
"I would be less than frank if I didn't tell you that the curriculum does contain references to the Quran, which, if taken out of context and read literally, would cause come concern," Hyland said at the meeting at which the lease was extended.
Add to del.icio.us
Posted: Thursday, June 12, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 98 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #192094 by Colwyn Abernathy on June 12, 2008 at 12:45 pm
Yeah, but they got all that oil. I'd so love to see the day when we're no longer dependent on OPEC. Think of the giant mid-digit we could display proudly. "Bandar Bush" indeed. Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy
3. Comment #192096 by 8teist on June 12, 2008 at 12:50 pm
Oh yeah FEEEEL the love Other Comments by 8teist
4. Comment #192098 by phatbat on June 12, 2008 at 12:51 pm
I think that if a holy book contains possible justifications for violence towards someone or something except in cases of self defence (or defence of others from phisical harm) then it is not a religion of peace.
If said book contains a lot of explicit justifications of violence then it is not a religion of peace.
If said book contains no possible justifications of violence what-so-ever except in self defence as stated above then it is a religion of peace.
Other Comments by phatbat
5. Comment #192100 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 12, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Hate speech surely? The Bible and the Qu'ran should be banned if consistency was valued. How is this double standard allowed?Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
6. Comment #192111 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 1:10 pm
History_Junky,
You aren't much of a junkie.... the Mughal genocide was in the 1500's. Muhammad Ibn Abd al-Wahhab was born in 1701 in al-'Uyayna. He didn't start to outline his beliefs until the 1740's.
It would be quite impossible for his ideology to have been responsible.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
7. Comment #192113 by Sean on June 12, 2008 at 1:11 pm
Will the statement department also be speaking to schools that teach from the Bible? I'm fairly certain that a book that proscribes death for non-believers, homosexuals and people who work on the wrong day of the week should also be receiving the same treatment.Other Comments by Sean
8. Comment #192123 by rod-the-farmer on June 12, 2008 at 1:26 pm
"I would be less than frank if I didn't tell you that the curriculum does contain references to the Quran, which, if taken out of context and read literally, would cause come concern," Hyland said at the meeting at which the lease was extended.
Taken out of context indeed. Death for apostasy and polytheism ? Shut the school down immediately. Have the Border Patrol guys check every book published in a muslim country on entry to the U.S. If it contains references to this sort of thing, is it possible to ban the book ?
Other Comments by rod-the-farmer
9. Comment #192124 by Mango on June 12, 2008 at 1:26 pm
comment 5 The Bible and the Qu'ran should be banned if consistency was valued. How is this double standard allowed?
If you closely read the story, it's not about banning the Quran itself that is the issue, but rather a series of the school's textbooks that endorse barbaric passages of the Quran. When Christian schools have textbooks that endorse the nasty parts of the Bible, there will undoubtedly also be a similar problem.
Other Comments by Mango
10. Comment #192133 by Edouard Pernod on June 12, 2008 at 1:32 pm
This is unfortunate, as I do believe the Saudi school, however repugnant I find their vile teachings, would have their right to free speech violated if they are shut down, though I'm not entirely sure if the first amendment extends to teaching children to break the laws of the land and to commit murder. Teaching children anti-semitism and that murder in God's name is permissible is child abuse, just as Dawkins has made the case for previously. Should that be protected speech?
That being said, if we are going to shut down the Saudi school then we should shut down all those Jesus Camps that teach children to hate, and those fundamentalist churches which say it's OK to kill abortion doctors. I'm not sure if I'm OK with the state mandating the closing down of any place that makes offensive speech, though, no matter how offensive I may find that speech.
My 6th grade teacher in a Seventh Day Adventist school told us all that black people were inferior because they bore the mark of Cain (the "dark mark" the bible refers to as Cain's punishment for slaughtering Abel). Based on what they taught, should that school have been shut down? I'll admit, they preached hate but they didn't tell us to break the laws of the land and to kill.
Other Comments by Edouard Pernod
11. Comment #192139 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 12, 2008 at 1:39 pm
If you closely read the story, it's not about banning the Quran itself that is the issue, but rather a series of the school's textbooks that endorse barbaric passages of the Quran.
I know what the story said I'm merely remarking on the inconsistency of the laws application. It shows it up for what it really is vote-mongering.
Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad
12. Comment #192141 by Mango on June 12, 2008 at 1:41 pm
ThoughtsonCommonToad. So what is the inconsistency you see? Again, the first word of the story is "textbooks." That's what's at issue, not the content of the respective holy books per se. Other Comments by Mango
13. Comment #192147 by Dinah on June 12, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Once we get State-funded Islamic schools here in the UK there is a very real danger they will be teaching similar things. We are told 'Oh no, the schools will be regularly inspected, will have to adhere to the National Curriculum, and extremism will not be allowed,' but I am not convinced. Won't the inspectors be accused of 'Islamaphobia' if they criticise what the pupils are taught? Won't they (the Inspectors) feel pressured to abide by current notions of political correctness by accepting that the teaching in an Islamic school is bound to be culturally different from a non-Muslim school and therefore not subject to the same rules? Will girls attending these schools be encouraged to see themselves as the equals of males, and free to make their own choices regarding marriage, education, careers and lifestyle choices? Common sense suggests that such schools will do nothing to aid the integration of pupils into a modern Western democracy.Other Comments by Dinah
14. Comment #192152 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 1:49 pm
"I'm shocked! Shocked to find gambling going on in this establishment"."Here are your winnings, sir".
Other Comments by mordacious1
15. Comment #192173 by thewhitepearl on June 12, 2008 at 2:11 pm
And this differs from the bible how?
To quote Bob Marley, "Before you start pointing your finger, make sure your hands are clean"
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
16. Comment #192182 by Ragnar0kk on June 12, 2008 at 2:26 pm
Taken out of context indeed. Death for apostasy and polytheism ? Shut the school down immediately. Have the Border Patrol guys check every book published in a muslim country on entry to the U.S. If it contains references to this sort of thing, is it possible to ban the book ?
While i agree textbooks such as these should be removed from the school system i don't think they should be banned from the public at large. I do not support the views in these books but i must admit i distrust the government to filter information for the public. Religious people try to use your argument to ban science books that contradict the 7 day creation, both are a misguided way to view freedom of speech (imo).
Other Comments by Ragnar0kk
17. Comment #192185 by Goldy on June 12, 2008 at 2:27 pm
History_Junkyhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/arts/main.jhtml?xml=/arts/2007/08/30/borob126.xml
Another view...
;-)
Other Comments by Goldy
18. Comment #192193 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 12, 2008 at 2:31 pm
Stop the presses! Islamic schools are teaching Islamic tenets! Shock! Horror! Who could have seen this coming?Why is this stuff tolerated? Why aren't the whole bloody mess of instructors kicked out of the country, the school's assets seized, and the place torn down? What is it going to take for us to say enough?
All the usual suspects heard from:
The incompetent politicos who can't be bothered to find out even a little of what Islam is:
The commission's findings issued come a month after the Fairfax County Board of Supervisors voted unanimously to extend the academy's lease for its main campus, which sits on county property.
The apologetics:
"I would be less than frank if I didn't tell you that the curriculum does contain references to the Quran, which, if taken out of context and read literally, would cause come concern," Hyland said at the meeting at which the lease was extended.
And, of course, the lickspittle tu-quoque apologists:
And this differs from the bible how
Oh, I don't know thewhitepearl. Maybe because the main character in the Bible, the guy whose words override anything else that may be written in there, was an absolute pacifist? Maybe that the Bible contains no, that is absolutely no open-ended commands to wage ware on Infidels and enslave them? Yes, you heard that right: the horrors of the Old Testament are descriptive, and not perscriptive, which is to say, unless you happen to be an ammonite or Midianite or whatever, you have nothing to worry about?
And above all, this minor fact: just about all Christians do not teach anything even remotely aproximating this barbarity.
-------------------------------------------
Al, he may have been referring to the various Wahabi uprisings in the subcontinent. I'm currently reading 'God's Terrorists' and while it insists on this ludicrous idea that it's only Wahabism that's the problem, it's got alot of good historical data.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
19. Comment #192209 by Barry Pearson on June 12, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Dinah said: Once we get State-funded Islamic schools here in the UK there is a very real danger they will be teaching similar things. We are told 'Oh no, the schools will be regularly inspected, will have to adhere to the National Curriculum, and extremism will not be allowed,' but I am not convinced.Neither am I.
If you want to write a letter to your MP, you can use my letter as a starter-kit if it helps:
http://www.barrypearson.co.uk/articles/gods/letter1.htm
Other Comments by Barry Pearson
20. Comment #192211 by Jiten on June 12, 2008 at 2:47 pm
just about all Christians do not teach anything even remotely aproximating this barbarity.
almost no Christians teach anything even remotely approximating this barbarity. :-)
Other Comments by Jiten
21. Comment #192216 by Vinelectric on June 12, 2008 at 2:54 pm
Fanusi Khiyal
the guy whose words override anything else that may be written in their, was an absolute pacifist?
Yet they managed to invent the most revolting psychologically sick concept of eternal Hell. People usually "tu quoque" for a good reason.
Other Comments by Vinelectric
22. Comment #192220 by thewhitepearl on June 12, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Fanusi Khiyal,
So what you're trying to prove to me that Islam is more dangerous than Christianity? Go right ahead and try to win that battle as I could care less which one tells more horror stories or breeds more hate. The point is both books have or do wage a war of hate, and breed intolerance. The last thing needed is for someone who agrees with that position but wants to argue about which one breeds MORE hate. How childish is that?
And obviously you didnt read my entire comment, cause if you had perhaps it would have hit you with the accurate point I was making.
Oh and by the way. Perhaps you should go back and re-read the Bible and especially the OT. Because you seem to be missing something.
Jesus Christ (you know the pacifist in the book) what's worse than a believer picking and choosing is a non beliver picking and choosing.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
23. Comment #192222 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 12, 2008 at 2:58 pm
Vin:Yet they managed to invent the most revolting psychologically sick concept of eternal Hell.
And I have defended this - where? Islam emphasizes hell far more and far more terribly. I notice you don't even try to challenge my other points.
People usually "tu quoque" for a good reason
No, they don't.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
24. Comment #192223 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Fanusi,
Get it together grouch!
Why aren't the whole bloody mess of instructors kicked out of the country
What about US citizens, where do we expel them to?
Other Comments by al-rawandi
25. Comment #192225 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Fanusi,
Which Wahhabi uprisings?
Sayyid Ahmad Barelwi? Not even close, he was an initiate of FOUR Sufi orders, hardly a Wahhabi by traditional accounts.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
26. Comment #192226 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 12, 2008 at 3:05 pm
So what you're trying to prove to me that Islam is more dangerous than Christianity? Go right ahead and try to win that battle as I could care less which one tells more horror stories or breeds more hate.
Perhaps you should. Because there's a difference between a cold and the flu, and there's a difference between the flu and malaria. Perhaps you should care a bit more, since this is information directly relevant to your future, your life, your freedom. All of that depends on large numbers of Infidels learning the truths that you despise.
And obviously you didnt read my entire comment, cause if you had perhaps it would have hit you with the accurate point I was making.
Sorry, I did - all two lines of it. Your point was that there's some nasty stuff in the Bible, and therefore you are excused from trying to learn about the difference, or to actually do something in defence of civilisation. Because this is going to be a long, brutal, nasty struggle, one where you'll have to find your allies where you can get them, and some of those may even be (gasp!) those nasty, nasty Christians.
This isn't abstract theory. This isn't academic discussion over coffee in the Oxford Union. This is a matter of life and death. Literally. Don't believe me? Ask those poor devils who took the tube one morning.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
27. Comment #192229 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 12, 2008 at 3:10 pm
Hmm, al, I'd love to get some more textual criticism on this book, 'cause Charles Allen lists Sayed Ahmed and his intellectual offspring as Wahhabi.t it together grouch!
Sorry, things like this bring out my inner Saint-Just. Which brings me to point two:
What about US citizens, where do we expel them to?
Saudi Arabia. Pakistan. The bottom of the Mariana Trench for all I care. As long as they aren't allowed to remain behind our lines in the dar al-Harb.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
28. Comment #192230 by Border Collie on June 12, 2008 at 3:10 pm
If it's free speech, it's free speech. Doesn't matter. I think it was TWP ... Whack a mole. Suppress it here, it'll pop up there or it won't pop up and it'll blow up somewhere else. Here's the deal ... we were all taught at least some BS to a degree ... whatever. It is incumbent on each of us to become sane in the world, no matter what we were taught or indoctrinated with. It seems that most people on this forum have done so to whatever degree. The kids in this school have the same responsibility to the world ... to become sane in this world ... no matter what their books say or what their religious leaders tell them. Hey, ban the books, take the words out of the books ... they'll still be taught and indoctrinated with the BS elsewhere. Promote getting over it, promote sanity.As always, I'm grateful to all of you guys for being my mentors. I'm honored.
Other Comments by Border Collie
29. Comment #192232 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 12, 2008 at 3:14 pm
If it's free speech, it's free speech. Doesn't matter. I think it was TWP ... Whack a mole. Suppress it here, it'll pop up there or it won't pop up and it'll blow up somewhere else
Not really - this nonsense only sprouts up in the Islamic community. If we keep expelling these guys, the rest will get the message - or we'll expell the lot of them, and problem solved. We'd never have tolerated the Emperor Hirohito academy during WWII, or a Mein Kampf reading kindergarten.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
30. Comment #192233 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 3:14 pm
Fanusi,
Well Barelwi was initially allied with Amir Khan, but they split. Barelwi wrote a book called Sirat al-Mustaqim where he droned on and on about Tauhid, the ubiquitous Wahhabi topic, but he was an initiate of the Muhammadiyya and Chigishtiyya Sufi orders (and two more I cannot recall). Wahhbism is diametrically oposed to Sufism as they reject taqlid outright.
If you say Barelwi is a Wahhabi then that goes for Ahmad Tijan, who was also described as a Wahhabi, despite the fact that the Tijaniyya order still worships at tombs, a practice abhorred by Wahhabis.
*EDIT*
Regarding Barelwi, people (the ones who can't tell one Muslim from another) often assume that since Bin Abd al-Wahhab spoke at length about tauhid that anyone who does this is a "Wahhabi", but the problem is that Tauhid is a central theme in ALL forms of Islam, and is not even remotely specific to one.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
31. Comment #192236 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Can someone please explain to me who is going to close this school? I don't see any legal ability to do this if it is a privately funded school. Bob Jones U. has been going on without govt. support, but constantly puts out weird and hateful nonsense. They can make it move off govt. land, but they cannot stop them from opening elsewhere.Other Comments by mordacious1
32. Comment #192237 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 12, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Fair enough, al. As I said, I'm still reading the book. Thanks for the info.Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
33. Comment #192239 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 12, 2008 at 3:17 pm
Can someone please explain to me who is going to close this school? I don't see any legal ability to do this if it is a privately funded school
I'd say it falls under 'sedition in a time of war'. Basta.
Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
34. Comment #192243 by History_Junky on June 12, 2008 at 3:20 pm
al-rawandi I mixed up my islamic dictators, thanks for the correction.
Btw, genocide went way behind the 1500's, the history of the sikhs confirms this.
But getting back to the issue at hand, the western world needs to be careful with its dealings with Saudi Arabia. Any attempt to combat global terrorism with open hands extended towards Saudi Arabia will undermine the effort.
Other Comments by History_Junky
35. Comment #192248 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 3:26 pm
FanusiI don't see direct sedition here, even if there was a law to prevent such a thing. We are not officially at war with the Islamic world. If they move this school on to private land, it stays open.
Other Comments by mordacious1
36. Comment #192255 by al-rawandi on June 12, 2008 at 3:32 pm
History_Junky,
So we are clear, I am not apologizing for Muslim violence, I am just a pedant about that stuff.
I would say it is the same brand of narrow and evil thinking that caused the violence as is expounded by Bin Abd al-Wahhab.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
37. Comment #192263 by History_Junky on June 12, 2008 at 3:41 pm
al-rawandiYour crystal clear.
Other Comments by History_Junky
38. Comment #192267 by thewhitepearl on June 12, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Fanusi,
No, no no no no no no and no. You have my point pegged wrong sorry. For the record I was not taking the "tu quoque" approach.
And once again I'm not going to sit here and argue about which religion is MORE dangerous because they all are. I'm not going to put one above the other. They all breed hate, they all breed intolerance, and intolerance breeds murders, suicides, and wars.
It all comes to the same conclusion no matter which way you slice and dice the cake. And like mordacious points out; we are not officially at war with the Islamic world.
Obviously we both agree that religion shouldn't be taken lightly but once again I think you're being childish sitting here trying to debate which religion should be taken more seriously. I'm not big on the "NO MINE IS" argument that four year olds are so fond of.
Get off the soap box, have a cup of tea and relax. We all understand your point here, you are beating a dead horse amongst most of us. We understand the seriousness of the issue.
Pick your battles.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
39. Comment #192274 by robotaholic on June 12, 2008 at 4:16 pm
Allow me to chime in with the usual "MAN I despise religion"
- ok thx
Other Comments by robotaholic
40. Comment #192289 by Bonzai on June 12, 2008 at 5:12 pm
thewhitepearlAnd once again I'm not going to sit here and argue about which religion is MORE dangerous because they all are. I'm not going to put one above the other. They all breed hate, they all breed intolerance, and intolerance breeds murders, suicides, and wars
Obviously they are not all the same. Try to show anyone that the Hari Krishnas are as violent and hateful as Islam in the way interpreted by mainstream Islamic scholars throughout the Muslim world.
With the exception of a few nut cases on the far, far fringe of Christianity the Christian churches has stopped talking about killing heretics, adulterers, homosexuals and non believers CENTURIES ago but these practices are alive and well in the Islam world and justified by Islamic dogmqas. While the Christian Right in the U.S.always tries to influence political decisions even most fundamentalists don't believe in creating a full blown theocracy, let alone anything remotely equivalent to a global Caliphate.
Pat Robertson would be considered a big liberal if he were Muslim and I am not exaggerating. To see the difference the homophobic Christians in the U.S. are campaigning against same sex marriage while in many Islamic countries homosexuals are executed on the order of religious courts.
This kind of mindless equal opportunity religious bashing simply ignores reality. While all religions are nonsense, not all are deadly or equally deadly
Other Comments by Bonzai
41. Comment #192293 by Podaar on June 12, 2008 at 5:41 pm
40. Comment #192289 by Bonzai
I would add; religions are not equally dangerous in just a 'physical threat' way...they aren't even equal in the less obvious ways. Treating Wicca theology as being as dangerous as Fundamentalist Mormon theology is ridiculous too.
Other Comments by Podaar
42. Comment #192301 by Goldy on June 12, 2008 at 6:06 pm
I was going to mention the Dalai Lama as not particularly dangerous, but the Chinese Communist Party would not agree with me...Other Comments by Goldy
43. Comment #192306 by thewhitepearl on June 12, 2008 at 6:14 pm
Bonzai,
"While all religions are nonsense, not all are deadly or equally deadly"
True. But they all have the potential to be. (At least the three abrahamic religions) As evident by the past. And what they believe will happen in the future. But we really have gone to the extreme of things.
Like I said I'm not going to sit here and argue about which religion is more dangerous. In some way or form they are ALL dangerous regardless of the degree. That's the only point I was trying to make and someone wanted to jump on that and "show me a lesson" or felt that they had to "prove" how one religion was more dangerous.
I wasn't disagreeing or agreeing with the possiblity. I was simplying disagreeing with the blindfold most believers wear in regard to their own faiths.
Did I make myself clear now or do some of you feel like you still need to use me as a gateway to hash out your opinions?
EDIT: Goldy...lol true but buddhism is hardly considered a "religion".
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
44. Comment #192309 by Secularist on June 12, 2008 at 6:22 pm
al-rawandi I remember you from the conversation about Judaism.At that time you were very easy to adopt any accusation about it even when it was clear that it was all fabrication.I took about the blood.
Now you are very careful,weird isn't it?
---------------------
Anyway back to the topic.
Wahabi has long problem with Shia,Sufis and Jews.
This are their main target.
Since they want to restore Islam to its pure form they want to imitate Muhammad and immitating Muhammad mean cutting head of prisoners.
I don't think that Muhammad violence for itself make Islam violence but when Islam decided that Muslims should imitate Muhammad then Muhammad violence has made Islam.
Other Comments by Secularist
45. Comment #192312 by Bonzai on June 12, 2008 at 6:37 pm
But they all have the potential to be. (At least the three abrahamic religions) As evident by the past.
Well everyone has the potential to be a murderer. I may be too dense to see your point.
Christianity is allegedly found by a guy who told you to turn the other cheek, love thy neighbours and to forgive your brother, and finally that his kingdom was not in this world. He supposedly hanged out with outcasts and hobos and died a horrible death. While he had his occasional outbursts and nasty moments and had to work with a horribly violent book and people had done horrible things in his name, but I think his message fundamentally is not intrinsically violent, hateful or expansionist.
In contrast, Mohammad was a general,surrounded by acolytes and women, he was a conquerer who preached with the sword and made the horrible God from the same old book even more horrible and rigid than he already was. Jesus turned the God of the Old Testament into sort of a pussy, at least in his good days while Mohammad put the same God on steroid.Also, in Islam God's Kingdom is most definitely in this world as well as the next.
Now believers do pick and choose and Christianity had been used to justified horrible deeds and conquests, but at least one can argue, not without some justification, that these actions were not intrinsic to Jesus' teachings. But it would be a lot more difficult to spin a peaceful Mohammad based on his words and deeds.
Edit
EDIT: Goldy...lol true but buddhism is hardly considered a "religion".
True, but the Dalai Lama's branch of Buddhism is definitely a religion.
Other Comments by Bonzai
46. Comment #192313 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 6:39 pm
Let's remember that GW got the ok from jesus before attacking Iraq. Religion is dangerous whenever people think there is a conversation going on between them and the invisible ones. The radical muslims tell their followers that their book, or allah needs them to blow up the infidel. The christians believe that such and such a war is ok because their leader got the go ahead from god. Insanity on both sides.oh, and I almost got trampled once by hari krishnas trying to sell me flowers at the airport, so they can be dangerous too.
Other Comments by mordacious1
47. Comment #192317 by Bonzai on June 12, 2008 at 6:47 pm
Let's remember that GW got the ok from jesus before attacking Iraq
The radical muslims tell their followers that their book, or allah needs them to blow up the infidel.
Well do you believe GW? What the radical Muslims told their followers is in the book, what GW told you is not.
That makes a huge difference, many Christians think GW is full of shit theologically and they can easily argue that as Christians. But it would be a lot harder for a liberal Muslim to argue that the radicals are full of shit according to Islam, it may not be impossible, but a lot harder.
Other Comments by Bonzai
48. Comment #192319 by mordacious1 on June 12, 2008 at 6:53 pm
BonzaiIt's in their book that people can talk to the invisible ones. That is all it takes. I've asked thousands of fundies, even some not so fundie, if the lord guides them in their life. 100% say yes. So when GW says he was guided by god, they believe him. What can be more dangerous than that? And we have more destructive weapons.
Other Comments by mordacious1
49. Comment #192320 by thewhitepearl on June 12, 2008 at 6:56 pm
Bonzai,
"Well everyone has the potential to be a murderer"
I'm really not going to go focus about how some neurologist and psychologists would disagree with you on that statement but rather focus on how poor of an analogy that was.
"Now believers do pick and choose "
Do I need to point out the thin line of hypocrisy you are starting to cross? So are you. You are making a bold statement that Christianity is to be taken moderatley and with less caution than Islam based on what and who the founders were? Regardless of what anything else in either holy books might say...Sounds like picking and choosing to me. Just on a more ridiculous scale because the person(s) doing the picking and choosing is not a believer. It's a rather backwords approach.
And once again. Read all of my statments did I ever make a preference to which religion I thought was more dangerous (in the present day sense) Nope.
Trying to figure out who the hell a couple of you are trying to make a point to.
Mordacious1,
Thanks for the point. For a minute there a thought I was going insane and maybe I was only making sense to myself
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
50. Comment #192325 by thewhitepearl on June 12, 2008 at 7:10 pm
Bonzai said:
"many Christians think GW is full of shit theologically and they can easily argue that as Christians"
Hmmmm I didnt know that!!Has there been a poll on the subject? Is that something widely discussed on the news? How do you know that information?
EDIT:
"True, but the Dalai Lama's branch of Buddhism is definitely a religion. "
How so? How is tibetan buddhism considered religious where you accept that (i guess you could say regular old buddhism) isnt?
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
Upcoming Events:
About this site
Mailing List Signup: Enter your email
Go to The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science
Richard Dawkins Articles | Comments | Tour Journal
Atheist Resources | Local Groups
Debate Points | Latest Responses
Audio Books
The God Delusion
Read by
Richard Dawkins &
Lalla Ward
The Ancestor's Tale
Read by
Richard Dawkins &
Lalla Ward
On the Origin of Species
Read by
Richard Dawkins
Links:
Quote:
"It may be that brain hardware has co-evolved with the internal virtual worlds that it creates. This can be called hardware-software co-evolution."
Richard Dawkins
Other Recommended Reading
The Varieties of Scientific Experience
Carl Sagan, Ann Druyan (Editor)
American Theocracy
Kevin Phillips
Evolution
Jean-Baptiste de Panafieu
More Books
Adjust font size: 
"If this book doesn't change the world -- we're all screwed."
-Penn (Penn & Teller)
The God Delusion
by Richard Dawkins
Over 1.5 million copies sold
DVDs
'The Genius of Charles Darwin' DVD (PAL Region 2 ONLY)
'Enemies of Reason' DVD
'Voices of Science' DVD
'The Four Horsemen' DVD
'Root of All Evil? The Original Program' DVD
'Growing Up in the Universe' DVD
'Break the Science Barrier' DVD
Books by Richard Dawkins
The Oxford Book of Modern Science Writing
by Richard Dawkins
The Selfish Gene
by Richard Dawkins
The Blind Watchmaker
by Richard Dawkins
The Ancestor's Tale
by Richard Dawkins
Unweaving the Rainbow
by Richard Dawkins
1. Comment #192059 by History_Junky on June 12, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Other Comments by History_Junky