1. Comment #192604 by TheGreatBZ on June 13, 2008 at 3:01 pm

This is rather depressing. I can't believe people believe these things.

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2. Comment #192606 by Thurston on June 13, 2008 at 3:18 pm

Anyone who thinks atheists only rant and rage and are ignorant of the 'obvious' truths of religion should see these videos and read Ayaan's Infidel. What an inspiration she is!

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3. Comment #192609 by maton100 on June 13, 2008 at 3:32 pm

Nothing says "I love you" like the feel of rusty scissors.

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4. Comment #192610 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 13, 2008 at 3:41 pm

Ayaan looks as though the relentless persecution is finally getting to her.

This is an absolute disgrace.

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5. Comment #192611 by Mike O'Risal on June 13, 2008 at 3:47 pm

If folks are interested in keeping up with whats going on in the terrible world of FGM, please check out (and consider donating to) The Female Genital Cutting Education and Networking Project. The director (and not coincidentally my partner for quite a long time now) has spent years in research and organizing efforts in dealing with the problem of FGM in North Africa and elsewhere. She and a skeletal staff of volunteers have moved mountains in the effort to educate and legislate on this issue.

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6. Comment #192613 by robotaholic on June 13, 2008 at 3:55 pm

I'll say it again - MAN I DETEST RELIGION.

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7. Comment #192614 by MarcLindenberg on June 13, 2008 at 3:59 pm

FGM is ever so terrible... The thought of it runs shivers up and down my spine...

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8. Comment #192615 by Neuro on June 13, 2008 at 4:02 pm

Rock on, Ayaan.

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9. Comment #192617 by Steve Zara on June 13, 2008 at 4:12 pm

omment #192611 by Mike O'Risal

Thanks for posting this Mike. I would like to point out this link:
http://www.fgmnetwork.org/faq.php#donations

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10. Comment #192625 by shemp333 on June 13, 2008 at 4:58 pm

I love this woman. So soft spoken and polite, Yet firm in her convictions. She makes the world a better place and I'm grateful she's telling her story.

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11. Comment #192633 by adk on June 13, 2008 at 6:08 pm

Wow she is such an incredible woman. So cool to see her and hear her after reading Infidel, I really look up to her.

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12. Comment #192634 by Chris Jackson on June 13, 2008 at 6:20 pm

Emotional, stirring and a rallying call for all those who still live under the divine delusion. It may sound like I'm "Sucking up" and that I'm ignoring Ayaan's Neo-con perspective (right now I am) but Her description of leaving Islam gives me hope for several friends who still live under the veil.

A short but effective video, especially the section about female circumcision ( a pet hate/ worry of mine) and the "Devil within her" guiding her atheistic development.

10/10

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13. Comment #192641 by doubtingfoo on June 13, 2008 at 7:10 pm

I went out and bought her book tonight!

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14. Comment #192643 by entheogensmurf on June 13, 2008 at 7:25 pm

It is inspiring to see such a person come from that world.
I have her book but there's still two other books in line before reading hers.

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15. Comment #192655 by BeyondBelief on June 13, 2008 at 8:33 pm

Chris Jackson,

Could you please relay one of Ayaan's "Neo-con perspectives." I don't mean for you to tell me she's affiliated with AEI.

Rather, please tell me a position that Ayaan has taken that is "neo-con" and provide quotation sources. I so fully agree with everything of hers that I have heard her say, or write, that I need to know if I'm either missing something she said, or if I'm a neo-con and just don't know it.

Thanks,
R.

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16. Comment #192682 by lastgreekstanding on June 13, 2008 at 10:57 pm

There's more than meets the eye here, people.

From the economist.com , Feb. 8th, 2007:

SAY what you will about Ayaan Hirsi Ali, she fascinates. The Dutch-Somali politician, who has lived under armed guard ever since a fatwa was issued against her in 2004, is a chameleon of a woman. Just 11 years after she arrived in the Netherlands from Africa, she rode into parliament on a wave of anti-immigrant sentiment, only to leave again last year, this time for America, after an uproar over lies she had told to obtain asylum.

Even the title of her new autobiography reflects her talent for reinvention. In the Netherlands, where Ms Hirsi Ali got her start campaigning against the oppression of Muslim women, the book has been published under the title "My Freedom". But in Britain and in America, where she now has a fellowship at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, it is called "Infidel". In it, she recounts how she and her family made the cultural odyssey from nomadic to urban life in Africa and how she eventually made the jump to Europe and international celebrity as the world's most famous critic of Islam. …

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17. Comment #192702 by wodecki on June 13, 2008 at 11:31 pm

lastgreekstanding,

your apostrophe implies you think you know something we don't, but I'm having some difficulty guessing what it is. Could you please provide a little detail for my benefit? Thank you.

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18. Comment #192713 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 13, 2008 at 11:47 pm

lastgreekstanding thank you for giving me another reason to detest The Economist. In the interests of justice, I will hope that you don't agree with that filth.

BeyondBelief the 'neocon' smear is used against anyone who has had it up to here with Islam, and doesn't tolerate what it keeps doing throughout the world. Here is a good video that explains it thoroughly:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eNaBztTkg6k

The thing is that the contraction 'neo-con' gives an impression of suited, machiavellian, sinister figures, and nothing else. It's an Orwellian use of the word.

You see, once you've called someone a 'neocon', you've save yourself the bother of having to deal with what they have to say. They're neocons; why would you listen to them? This is why Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a neocon; save you from having to deal with the uncomfortable truths she raises.

We're all neocons, you know? All of us who see Islam for what it is, or even see a glimpse, we're all neocons: Sam Harris, Ali Sina, Ibn Warraq, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Walid Shoebat, Robert Spencer, Hugh FitzGerald, Geert Wilders, Pim Fortuyn.. Oh, the list goes on and on. That's what the Giant Citadels of Conscience of the Guardian and the BBC have decided, you know?

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19. Comment #192726 by wodecki on June 14, 2008 at 12:05 am

Fanusi Khiyal, it's hard for me to see what brand of injustice was being committed by The Economist on that occasion. Can you elaborate, please? Thank you.

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20. Comment #192736 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 14, 2008 at 12:19 am

Wodecki, it's the presentation, the key omissions that drive my bloodpressure up:

Just 11 years after she arrived in the Netherlands from Africa, she rode into parliament on a wave of anti-immigrant sentiment, only to leave again last year, this time for America, after an uproar over lies she had told to obtain asylum.

Pay attention to these word: "rode into parliment on a wave of anti-immigrant sentiment"? Okay, first of all, I think we can all guess what kind of immigrant people were worried about.

Here is the real story:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali was elected to parliment because of her work attempting to secure the rights of Muslim women, and opposing such practices as forced marriage, who had previously been ignored, only to be chased out because she lied about her last name in order to escape a forced marriage herself

The implication behind that drivel the Economist is that Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a base opportunist, exploiting ignorant fears about 'immigrants', whereas what she really is is one of the bravest and most principled women of our time.

Even the title of her new autobiography reflects her talent for reinvention. In the Netherlands, where Ms Hirsi Ali got her start campaigning against the oppression of Muslim women, the book has been published under the title "My Freedom". But in Britain and in America, where she now has a fellowship at the conservative American Enterprise Institute, it is called "Infidel".

'Her capacity for reinvention'? This makes Ayaan appear like some showbiz celebrity. And what exactly is wrong with the book having different names in different languages? The CAged Virgin in Germany is called I will bring accusation (bear with me; German's a bit hard to translate), so how is this relevant?

This is a masterpiece of smearing.

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21. Comment #192761 by wodecki on June 14, 2008 at 12:39 am

Thank you, Fanusi Khiyal. I just wanted to have clear in my mind, the interpretation you were placing upon that rather tawdry piece of journalism. Personally, I didn't infer the ideas you did. Let's try to be careful here. "Rode into parliment on a wave of anti-immigrant sentiment" is perhaps an example of hackneyed, lazy writing but it doesn't neccesarily imply (let alone mean) that Ayan Hirsi Ali was cynically taking advantage of that "wave".

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22. Comment #192770 by RamziD on June 14, 2008 at 12:51 am

Fanusi,

All religions should be exposed for the cruel, inhumane acts and thoughts they perpetuate. However, it's kind of hard to stomach criticism of one religion when it's coming from behind the pulpit of another, as in the case of Walid Shoebat. When you grant interviews to people like Pat Robertson and John Hagee, and hypocritically denounce nationalism in the name of one religion while supporting it in the name of another (i.e he's a supporter of jewish nationalism, while all nationalism in the name of religion should be denounced), then you lose a lot of credibility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walid_Shoebat

http://youtube.com/watch?v=d1VzUy-Ou8Y

http://youtube.com/watch?v=7Fvot4Xoyno

http://youtube.com/watch?v=-e2BD5LDmDE

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23. Comment #192791 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 14, 2008 at 1:17 am

RamizD I have made this point before, specifically in connection with those clips: I consider Shoebat's comments about the End of Days or Satanic inspiration of the Qur'an to be crackpot.

But that has no bearing whatsoever on his knowledge of Islam, or on the violence and tyranny that it preaches, or on the genocidal intentions of the palestinians that he observed.

My point in listing those names is this: a number of intelligent people, of the most varying political and philosophical and religious backgrounds and positions have all come to the same conclusion about Islam. Yet they're all slammed as 'neocons'. Who's being irrational here?

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24. Comment #192815 by mmurray on June 14, 2008 at 2:23 am

Even the title of her new autobiography reflects her talent for reinvention.

WTF ? Is she the first writer to change the name of a book or have it changed by her publisher to suit different markets? Was JK Rowling showing her talent for reinvention when her American publisher changed Philosopher's Stone to Sorcerer's Stone ?

As for the neocon thing I agree with beyondbelief -- I have never heard her say anything particularly right wing. She is being paid by AEI. They wouldn't be my first choice of employer but I have the luxury of not being likely to end up with a knife in my chest when I go out in public. In any case removing religion from the world is not going to remove the dispute between the left and right of politics.

She gets my money.

Michael

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25. Comment #192851 by AfraidToDie on June 14, 2008 at 4:06 am

Without knowing much about Ayaan, other than watching several videos and reading various posts on RDW over that last year or so, it appears her message is one of enlightenment. Being anti-Islam (and atheist) does not alone make her a right wing neo-con, or else we'd all share that label. Her message could not be more clear.

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26. Comment #192854 by Logicel on June 14, 2008 at 4:21 am

Fanusi, yes, I remember that Economist coverage vividly even though it was published about 16 months ago.

It was almost as silly as another numbskull mouthing off why the price of gold is rising. But, all in all, the level of writing/reporting is superb in The Economist and I read it every week, the only print media that I do. It has in general a lively and talented bunch of writers who are not allowed to have by-lines. If they did, I would avoid anything written by the idiot who penned that slippery, slimy, vapid, useless article on Ayaan.

Ayaan is a neoCon--haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, and I am an goose with golden-egg laying skills.

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27. Comment #192877 by mmurray on June 14, 2008 at 5:36 am

Being anti-Islam (and atheist) does not alone make her a right wing neo-con, or else we'd all share that label.

What many people here don't like (if previous AHA threads are anything to go by) is her job at the American Enterprise Institute.

Michael

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28. Comment #192893 by Zoron on June 14, 2008 at 6:38 am

Wow, that islam is completely insane!

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29. Comment #192997 by RamziD on June 14, 2008 at 12:15 pm

Fanusi,

Ok, but isn't there something to be said about credibility? I mean, calling out another religion for all the harms its done yet espousing radical views of another religion is prime hypocrisy. There are definitely ulterior motives to his speaking out against islam. You still have to think about how someone comes to their conclusions. Listening to one of those videos on YouTube, he actually claims that there has never been a rape of a Palestinian woman by an Israeli soldier. How delusional does one have to be to claim that after 40 years of military occupation that certain injustice has never been committed? Shoebat is neither intelligent nor rational.

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30. Comment #193098 by thewhitepearl on June 14, 2008 at 3:13 pm

She is such a miraculous and brave woman.

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31. Comment #193137 by skip on June 14, 2008 at 6:37 pm

I just sent this link to my professors and some former classmates, they are going to love it!

Wonderful work Ayaan!

You are a brave lady!

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32. Comment #193156 by acarrionwasp on June 14, 2008 at 9:56 pm

for leaving islam, and then speaking out against it she SHOULD be protected. and how terrible that she should need it...what a disgusting thing a human being can be.

i feel sadness watching her. strange like watching an endagered animal thats being kept at a zoo. how terrible

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33. Comment #193164 by DalaiDrivel on June 14, 2008 at 11:19 pm

I still haven't contributed to her security trust! Well that will change now!

thewhitepearl,

Yeah, miraculous. It's just that I caught a nasty vision of a Christian cozying up to me declaring, "See, we're more alike than you think..."

No, not those kinds of miracles Damn It!

Brrrrr!

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34. Comment #193169 by DalaiDrivel on June 14, 2008 at 11:31 pm

Just my thoughts on the videos...

Ayaan seemed more eloquent in this dialogue than she has on other occasions to me. I was well and truly absorbed.

The Satan within? Superb! Next time, when I approach my Christian friends, I'll pronounce myself as Satan, like Matthew Perry revealing himself as Batman.

"I'm Satan!"

I like it! They probably be openly amused, maybe privately offended. They won't be much in a mood to to debate me probably, but it's true I don't mind sinking to such depths for a joke... :)

Maybe we're not selling the naughtiness of atheism enough... Seriously. Everybody feels good breaking the rules... the laws of the Creator of the Universe must be the most imposing, pertinent ones out there... hmmm... you know, it IS a real thrill breaking the biggest ones out there...

I'm sure other people have thought of it- but it's the first of it for me. Oh well... one more thing to add to my elation of being liberated from the tyranny of the celestial dictator.

I skipped over the circumcision video. I got all the information on said that I could stomach from God is Not Great.

Thank you Christopher Hitchens for your lucid writing...

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35. Comment #193368 by Border Collie on June 15, 2008 at 1:13 pm

What's the "purpose" of female "circumscision"? In three words ... control of women ...

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36. Comment #193721 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 16, 2008 at 12:17 am

I mean, calling out another religion for all the harms its done yet espousing radical views of another religion is prime hypocrisy. There are definitely ulterior motives to his speaking out against islam.

Sorry to be pedantic, but there's nothing 'ulterior' about his motives. Ulterior means concealed. He's made it very clear that he'd be happy to see all Muslims become Christians (presumably the rest of us to). Now that's not a dangerous view, and in fact may be a very helpful one.

I respect that he has managed to fight his way out of the mental prison of Islam and Jihad. What's difficult to understand about that?

Listening to one of those videos on YouTube, he actually claims that there has never been a rape of a Palestinian woman by an Israeli soldier. How delusional does one have to be to claim that after 40 years of military occupation that certain injustice has never been committed? Shoebat is neither intelligent nor rational.

I will just point out that Walid Shoebat actually grew up in the palestinian areas, and was a member of the PLO, so I find his words on the subject more believable than yours. Period.

His views on the whole Christian eschatology may not be rational, but he is intelligent, and he is in the right.

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37. Comment #193744 by Vinelectric on June 16, 2008 at 1:47 am

Fanusi

Here's a gift:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7451691.stm

Btselem are handing out video cameras to Palestenians to help them document settler aggression towards the unarmed Palestenians. Some were already caught on tape.

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38. Comment #193841 by rrazdan on June 16, 2008 at 5:58 am

Vinelectric, one needs to be quite careful when looks at reports like the one you point to. It is important to determine if this is a true news report, or a fictional story, embellished for affect?

With the Al-Durra fiasco exposed, the staged daylight candlelit vigil kept by Hamas to illustrate Israel's cruelty in withholding power from Gaza, and other well-documented hoaxes (like the funeral procession after the 'Jenin massacre' when the supposedly dead person jumps off the stretcher; see, for eg. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys), I tend to take these serendipitously recorded-on-camera incidents with a fistful of salt. There are too many holes in this
story, filled by the dramatic descriptions of the narrator. I don't need this kind of mediator to explain to me that how bad Israelis are. There might well have been some kind of attack but I'd like to know the whole story, not watch merely the part that the BBC deems it right that we should.

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39. Comment #193845 by al-rawandi on June 16, 2008 at 6:08 am

rrazdan,





Let's not forget that after the "explosion" in Gaza which killed several civilians including a child, Hamas blamed Israel for a "strike" and in response launched al-Qassam rockets into the western Negev. But then last Thursday Hamas admitted that the blast was actually a bomb making shop which exploded and it wasn't Israel that "attacked" Gaza.

The problem is that Hamas will lie, lie, and lie some more. I too want to have the Palestinians realize a state, but that requires credibility, and the Palestinians have none at this point. I would also like to point you to youtube videos of Israeli soldiers shooting journalists, and international peace activists. The evidence is damning.

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40. Comment #193876 by qomak on June 16, 2008 at 7:26 am

one needs to be quite careful when looks at reports like the one you point to. It is important to determine if this is a true news report, or a fictional story, embellished for affect?

As Al said, there is damning evidence against Israelis too. Basically, in this conflict I only have respect for secular Jews. The rest deserve to live in a permanent state of conflict, killing each other over and over and over again, Haredims and the ilk and the rest of the religious fundies.

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41. Comment #193885 by al-rawandi on June 16, 2008 at 7:33 am

qomak,






Israel is proof that the Middle East is a screwed up place.


Read the Old Testament, a nasty and violent text. And Jews were nasty and violent. They then spent 2,000 years in Europe and came back a lot nicer than the people who remained in the region (Arabs). Even 2,000 years in the west didn't wash off all the fanatics and undesireables. Still so many whack job Jews... they send these to the occupied territories, arm them, and allow them to live on stolen land. That isn't particularly smart. 2,000 Sky daddy real estate contracts are a bad way to run a state.

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42. Comment #193931 by Vinelectric on June 16, 2008 at 8:16 am

rrazdan

I chose this particular news story because the cameras are supplied by an Israeli Human rights watch organisation called B'tselem.

Aljazeera is full of horrific one sided anti-Israeli documentaries but the more I've become aware of the lack of any Hamas integrity and their excessive systemized fraud the more I'm reluctant to give in to their brainwashing propaganda.

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43. Comment #193938 by al-rawandi on June 16, 2008 at 8:24 am

vinelectric,






The settlers are religious whackos... that is why the Israelis stick them in settlements. They do it because they don't want them in Israel proper, and also they will defend vigorously against any invasion.

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44. Comment #193979 by Vinelectric on June 16, 2008 at 9:01 am

It must be the heat as well. Give me one good reason why wouldn't anyone lose the plot when it hits 46 centigrade in the shade..I'm sure you've experienced similar weather in your travels. Although a friend of mine tells me Arizona can be as bad in the Summer.

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45. Comment #193986 by al-rawandi on June 16, 2008 at 9:05 am

Vin,





Arizona can be brutal, no doubt about it.


It was 90 defrees (f) in Jeddah in December.

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46. Comment #194139 by Don_Quix on June 16, 2008 at 1:01 pm

Although a friend of mine tells me Arizona can be as bad in the Summer.

It's 107 at 1pm right now. It's supposed to be around 112 later this afternoon. And summer just got started. I can't wait for August :D

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47. Comment #194433 by lastgreekstanding on June 16, 2008 at 7:21 pm

Her name is not Ayaan Hirsi Ali but rather Ayaan Hirsi Magan!

This according to a Dutch television documentary on her life, broadcast two years ago. Someone on another blog---angryarab.blogspot.com---was kind enough to tranlate portions of the documentary into English. From the snippets that I have read, this Ayaan person is a Fraud (that's right, with a capital F!). Everything, from why she escaped to the Netherlands, her forced marriage, her family problems, etc., one big fat lie.


al-rawandi,

And Jews were nasty and violent. They then spent 2,000 years in Europe and came back a lot nicer than the people who remained in the region (Arabs). Even 2,000 years in the west didn't wash off all the fanatics and undesireables.

How do you come up with this crazy stuff?

The settlers are religious whackos... that is why the Israelis stick them in settlements.

No. Cheap housing induces Israelis to move to the OT.

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48. Comment #194437 by al-rawandi on June 16, 2008 at 7:26 pm

LGS,






You are correct, government housing encourages migration to settlements, but who would migrate to the settlements? If you watch "Palestine is Still the Issue" you can see plenty of interviews with settlers and see their fanatacism at work.


How do explain the difference between European Jews and the Jews of the OT? What accounts for that? No Jews are stoned for anything, yet Muslims still stone people. I am afraid a European vacation of many centuries can have a positive effect, don't you?

Other Comments by al-rawandi

49. Comment #194465 by RamziD on June 16, 2008 at 9:17 pm

I respect that he has managed to fight his way out of the mental prison of Islam and Jihad. What's difficult to understand about that?

What's difficult to stomach is how someone can break away from the mental prison of one religion and then imprison himself in the mental prison of another. Sorry, but there's no honor in that. Hence the reason why he does not get my respect.

I will just point out that Walid Shoebat actually grew up in the palestinian areas, and was a member of the PLO, so I find his words on the subject more believable than yours. Period.

Would you believe that no American soldier ever raped a Vietnamese woman during the Vietnam war? Or any Japanese woman in WWII? No army has ever been immune to committing such atrocities during a time of war. I think it's crazy to believe Shoebat's words about that certain issue. I couldn't care less that he was part of the PLO. It's pure nonsense.

Edit: Furthermore, how do you not find dangerous wanting to convert everyone to christianity? I can understand less dangerous than wanting to convert everyone to islam, but you specifically said "Now that's not a dangerous view, and in fact may be a very helpful one".

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50. Comment #194563 by JuxtaMonkey on June 17, 2008 at 12:50 am

Why is there a separation of church and state again?
que video...Oh yeah.
Why am I so against blind-faith?
que video...oh yeah.
Why am I not a bigot?
que video...oh yeah.
Why do people always question my atheism and then hush me?
que video...oh yeah.

Thanks for the reminder. Sometimes all it takes to deal with constant bullshit is to know, other than faithfully deep-down, I'm not the one causing THE bullshit.

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