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Lawsuit filed over 'I Believe' plates in S.C.
by MSNBC
Thanks to Rob Mallicoatfor the link.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25270095/
Lawsuit filed over 'I Believe' plates in S.C. Members claim the state's new license plate design advocates Christianity
South Carolina legislators based their law approving a new license plate on this one proposed in Florida, which lawmakers ultimately rejected. The actual design for South Carolina's version of the 'I Believe' license plate has yet to be finalized.
COLUMBIA, S.C. - A group that advocates separation of church and state filed a federal lawsuit Thursday to prevent South Carolina from becoming the first state to create "I Believe" license plates.
The group contends that South Carolina's government is endorsing Christianity by allowing the plates, which would include a cross superimposed on a stained glass window.
Washington-based Americans United for Separation of Church and State filed the lawsuit on behalf of two Christian pastors, a humanist pastor and a rabbi in South Carolina, along with the Hindu American Foundation.
"I do believe these 'I Believe' plates will not see the light of day because the courts, I'm confident, will see through this," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, the group's executive director.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court for South Carolina, asks a judge to stop the state from making the plates and rule that the law allowing them violates the First Amendment.
State to take orders in August
A spokeswoman said the state Department of Motor Vehicles had not yet received the lawsuit and planned to go ahead with the plates unless told otherwise. The agency plans to unveil the final design and start taking orders by late August.
The bill sailed through the Legislature with little discussion earlier this year. Gov. Mark Sanford let it become law without his signature because the state already allows private groups to create license plates for any cause.
Republican House Speaker Bobby Harrell said residents asked for a way to express their beliefs, and legislators responded.
He disputed Lynn's accusation that they were pandering to constituents in an election year.
"That's what critics always say when they see something they don't like," Harrell said. "I think this has less to do with the First Amendment and more to do with their disdain for religion generally."
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Lynn said his group would not have opposed the "I Believe" plates had they been advocated by private groups. State law allows private groups to create specialty plates as long as they first collect either a $4,000 deposit or 400 prepaid orders.
An issue of free speech?
Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer said last week that he is willing to put up the money, then get reimbursed, though the Department of Motor Vehicles spokeswoman said that isn't necessary. Bauer said the idea came from Florida, where a proposal for an "I Believe" tag failed.
He called it a freedom-of-speech issue.
But a Methodist pastor who joined the lawsuit, the retired Rev. Thomas Summers of Columbia, said the plate provokes discrimination.
"I think this license plate really is divisive and creates the type of religious discord I've devoted my life to healing," he said.
Another of the ministers, the Rev. Robert Knight of Charleston, said the plates cheapen the Christian message.
"As an evangelical Christian, I don't think civil religion enhances the Christian religion. It compromises it," Knight said. "That's the fundamental irony. It's very shallow from a Christian standpoint."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25270095/
Lawsuit filed over 'I Believe' plates in S.C. Members claim the state's new license plate design advocates Christianity
South Carolina legislators based their law approving a new license plate on this one proposed in Florida, which lawmakers ultimately rejected. The actual design for South Carolina's version of the 'I Believe' license plate has yet to be finalized.
COLUMBIA, S.C. - A group that advocates separation of church and state filed a federal lawsuit Thursday to prevent South Carolina from becoming the first state to create "I Believe" license plates.
The group contends that South Carolina's government is endorsing Christianity by allowing the plates, which would include a cross superimposed on a stained glass window.
Washington-based Americans United for Separation of Church and State filed the lawsuit on behalf of two Christian pastors, a humanist pastor and a rabbi in South Carolina, along with the Hindu American Foundation.
"I do believe these 'I Believe' plates will not see the light of day because the courts, I'm confident, will see through this," said the Rev. Barry Lynn, the group's executive director.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court for South Carolina, asks a judge to stop the state from making the plates and rule that the law allowing them violates the First Amendment.
State to take orders in August
A spokeswoman said the state Department of Motor Vehicles had not yet received the lawsuit and planned to go ahead with the plates unless told otherwise. The agency plans to unveil the final design and start taking orders by late August.
The bill sailed through the Legislature with little discussion earlier this year. Gov. Mark Sanford let it become law without his signature because the state already allows private groups to create license plates for any cause.
Republican House Speaker Bobby Harrell said residents asked for a way to express their beliefs, and legislators responded.
He disputed Lynn's accusation that they were pandering to constituents in an election year.
"That's what critics always say when they see something they don't like," Harrell said. "I think this has less to do with the First Amendment and more to do with their disdain for religion generally."
Click for related content
Newsweek: Bumper stickers = Road Rage
Lynn said his group would not have opposed the "I Believe" plates had they been advocated by private groups. State law allows private groups to create specialty plates as long as they first collect either a $4,000 deposit or 400 prepaid orders.
An issue of free speech?
Lt. Gov. Andre Bauer said last week that he is willing to put up the money, then get reimbursed, though the Department of Motor Vehicles spokeswoman said that isn't necessary. Bauer said the idea came from Florida, where a proposal for an "I Believe" tag failed.
He called it a freedom-of-speech issue.
But a Methodist pastor who joined the lawsuit, the retired Rev. Thomas Summers of Columbia, said the plate provokes discrimination.
"I think this license plate really is divisive and creates the type of religious discord I've devoted my life to healing," he said.
Another of the ministers, the Rev. Robert Knight of Charleston, said the plates cheapen the Christian message.
"As an evangelical Christian, I don't think civil religion enhances the Christian religion. It compromises it," Knight said. "That's the fundamental irony. It's very shallow from a Christian standpoint."
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Posted: Friday, June 20, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 44 of 44 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #196677 by jimbob on June 20, 2008 at 10:21 am
Republican House Speaker Bobby Harrell said residents asked for a way to express their beliefs, and legislators responded.
A simpler response would be get a bumper sticker!
Other Comments by jimbob
3. Comment #196681 by mordacious1 on June 20, 2008 at 10:25 am
Where's my "Belief is Stupid" license plate?edit: I'd be more likely to flip off a driver with one of those...just when I was getting my road rage under control.
Other Comments by mordacious1
4. Comment #196684 by Apathy personified on June 20, 2008 at 10:31 am
'I believe', what happened to 'WWJD'?jimbob,
Ha, touche.
Other Comments by Apathy personified
5. Comment #196685 by Sciros on June 20, 2008 at 10:33 am
Easier to distinguish the loonies, I figure. Cross hanging on rearview mirror, obnoxious bumper sticker, vanity plate with Jesus on it, whatever.
Sure, I would like to see this killed in a federal court because any precedent against religion in politics is helpful in the long run, but this is *really* small potatoes.
Other Comments by Sciros
6. Comment #196693 by DPB on June 20, 2008 at 10:44 am
Once again it shows us how the religious are self centered and selfish. look at me look at me!Plus in my opinion, Its a easy way for the government to make some cash by feeding off the simple minded. These same people are the ones who would buy that bridge everyone talks about...
Or jesus on some toast!
Other Comments by DPB
7. Comment #196694 by eh-theist on June 20, 2008 at 10:50 am
$4000 to start your own series of plates? I'm thinking we could have some fun with this one!
Teapot Bless ?
Other Comments by eh-theist
8. Comment #196696 by Big City on June 20, 2008 at 10:51 am
Washington-based Americans United for Separation of Church and State filed the lawsuit on behalf of two Christian pastors, a humanist pastor and a rabbi in South Carolina, along with the Hindu American Foundation.What the hell is a 'humanist pastor'?
Paula:
Would this be the ONLY licence plate available in S. Carolina, or would it simply be one option among several?There is a variety. You can pay extra to pick which one you want, and, if the design is sponsored by a private organization, I think they get a cut of that fee as a donation.
Other Comments by Big City
9. Comment #196698 by Sciros on June 20, 2008 at 10:53 am
Paula it would an option among very many. Other Comments by Sciros
10. Comment #196702 by Paula Kirby on June 20, 2008 at 10:56 am
Sciros: Paula it would an option among very many.Sorry, I've probably caused confusion now, since I deleted my question after re-reading the article and working out the answer for myself! Thanks for your reply though! (To Big City too.)
Other Comments by Paula Kirby
11. Comment #196705 by Nentuaby on June 20, 2008 at 10:58 am
((Edit: I see the original comment was deleted while I wrote... I'll leave this here for anyone else who might be puzzled. ;) ))It would be one among many, Paula. The issuee would pay an extra amount along with his license fee to get one of the "special" ones instead of the default design showing a solid color or simple state iconography. There are usually on the order of a few dozen special plates to choose from.
The main issue, aside from the fact that it's a government issued item with religious iconography on it, is where that extra fee goes. Special plates are (in most states at least, including Florida where this has already gone through) a form of fund raising. The extra fee to get the special plate goes to a non-profit organization championing whatever the design on the plate supports. So, for instance, a plate with whales sends money to a marine conservation group; a plate with finger painting funds a children's issues charity.
Here, the money goes to a "faith based charity," which is generally understood by opponents of this sort of thing to mean that the state government is collecting money for religious proselytizing.
Other Comments by Nentuaby
12. Comment #196706 by SonOfSLJ on June 20, 2008 at 10:59 am
Quoth the article:"That's what critics always say when they see something they don't like," Harrell said. "I think this has less to do with the First Amendment and more to do with their disdain for religion generally."
Exactly! Because nothing brings clerics from multiple denominations of Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism together (along with Bob knows who else) quite like their mutual disdain for religion!
...
What an idiotic demagogue. Way to vindicate Rev. Lynn's suspicions without even realizing it.
Other Comments by SonOfSLJ
13. Comment #196707 by al-rawandi on June 20, 2008 at 11:00 am
I am officially finished with the south.
All you atheists move north.
Bunch of fucking inbred ass clowns.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
14. Comment #196708 by Big City on June 20, 2008 at 11:00 am
When Paula says 'Jump,' we say 'How high?'...from midair.
Other Comments by Big City
15. Comment #196711 by lefty on June 20, 2008 at 11:12 am
Rob Mallicoat (lefty)Nice to see this article bringing a few responses in.. I had to read the original twice before deciding to submit it to RD...
I like the idea of creating a new set of plates.. something like
I Believe... Darwin
Other Comments by lefty
16. Comment #196715 by Paula Kirby on June 20, 2008 at 11:15 am
Big City: When Paula says 'Jump,' we say 'How high?'
...from midair
Oh dear. It's safe to land now, I promise! :-)
Other Comments by Paula Kirby
17. Comment #196717 by notsobad on June 20, 2008 at 11:21 am
Someone point those people to their commandment number 2, the one about idols. Other Comments by notsobad
18. Comment #196721 by Devolution on June 20, 2008 at 11:24 am
Come on guys, how is the magic sky fairy supposed to tell us heathens from his chosen ones without a thin piece of metal attached firmly to our vehicles. Makes perfect sense :/ Other Comments by Devolution
19. Comment #196735 by WilliamP on June 20, 2008 at 11:38 am
I doubt the state will be able to justify this in court. The state needs to show that it has a secular purpose for these liscense plates, no religious promotion, and no excessive ties to religion. Giving people an outlet for their faith is probably not a secular purpose. If making money is the state's aim, there are other ways to make money than pimpin' out Jesus. The law will probably be shown to be too closely tied to religion or promoting it.But if the plates pass muster, I suggest that every drug dealer and smuggler in South Carolina buy one. Who would suspect them?
Other Comments by WilliamP
20. Comment #196737 by MelM on June 20, 2008 at 11:45 am
What I'm seeing is that the first stage of theocracy building is, in effect, underway. I see a common element in ID, "moment of silence", "bible literacy", 10 commandments weekend (SR 483), license plates, "American Religious History Week" (HR 888), amd religious posters on government building walls. The effect of what we're seeing is a push to make government the mouthpiece of religion--specifically, of "Christian Nation" propaganda. I have no idea whether or not this general goal is deliberate. But,in effect, this is what's happening. I think the results so far are mediocre because the courts are still holding up the wall-of-separation. As jimbob pointed out above, a bumper sticker would serve just fine. For all I care, they can even tattoo "I believe" on their foreheads. This license plate bit--like all the others--gets government into the act of carrying the message. I'm afraid we're going to really regret the fact that (link: "In God We Trust") is the national motto.Other Comments by MelM
21. Comment #196744 by robotaholic on June 20, 2008 at 11:58 am
why do official license plates get to have any special designs on them at all anyway? - I mean your driver's license doesn't have different styles to chose from - the whole thing is stupid stupid stupid - retarded - this is such a waste of time and money -
License Plates should be white with black characters and that's all- based completely on utility
Other Comments by robotaholic
22. Comment #196750 by Border Collie on June 20, 2008 at 12:03 pm
DPB ... great comment ... ha, ha, ha, ha ...!"cheapen, compromises, shallow" ... Like it takes the State to do that? Hell, let 'em do it, who cares? Maybe they won't have any $ left over to buy the little Jesus fish. I can't wait until one of them shows up on Cops, drunk and stupid, with the "I Believe" license plate.
Other Comments by Border Collie
23. Comment #196756 by 8teist on June 20, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Carto, where can I get a crunchy nut cornflake plate.... i need one ..now I need to proclaim my LOVE for crunchy nuts..
oh god I need that plate.
Other Comments by 8teist
25. Comment #196775 by bluebird on June 20, 2008 at 12:32 pm
Coincidence, we just read this in today's paper... *rolled collective eyes*...
Jesus on toast, or, Virgin Mary on the rocks:
http://current.com/items/89029449_mother_mary_spotting_in_a_missouri_rock
Other Comments by bluebird
26. Comment #196783 by tahustvedt on June 20, 2008 at 12:36 pm
That is one god awful ugly licence plate design. No wonder it was rejected. Other Comments by tahustvedt
27. Comment #196784 by Logicel on June 20, 2008 at 12:38 pm
Mordacious1 wrote: I'd be more likely to flip off a driver with one of those...just when I was getting my road rage under control._______________
From a recent Mind Hacks post: The abstract below suggests that bumper stickers are potentially an expression of territorial markers and that aggressive people are more likely to use more,...
Excerpted from: http://www.mindhacks.com/blog/2008/06/number_of_bumper_sti.html
So all those mild-mannered Christians with Christian sayings, icons, etc., festooned all over their Christian vehicles are really aggressive road ragers? Tell me, it ain't so!
Other Comments by Logicel
28. Comment #196815 by mordacious1 on June 20, 2008 at 1:07 pm
bluebirdIf you tilt you head to the left, it looks like a fish fossel. Your avatar reminds me of something too, but I won't say what.
Other Comments by mordacious1
29. Comment #196845 by Dane on June 20, 2008 at 1:36 pm
From what I've gathered from the above article, it is just a novelty plate similar to the ones we have in Ontario.http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/vehicle/graphic1.htm
Big deal.
I think we should ban the Ontario Square and Round Dance Federation's license plate too.
Other Comments by Dane
30. Comment #196878 by DPB on June 20, 2008 at 2:25 pm
All those plates are secular,this piticular one is singling out a specific religion.(favoritism)But it does show how people love getting thier egos stroked. Self centerism once again.
I agree with the bumper stickers.
Other Comments by DPB
31. Comment #196898 by Pattern Seeker on June 20, 2008 at 3:03 pm
annabanana-So have you ordered your "I Believe" plates yet?
I'd order one if I could put Bunny H. Christ on it. I'm sure most x-tians wouldn't know what to think.
Other Comments by Pattern Seeker
32. Comment #196899 by bachfiend on June 20, 2008 at 3:04 pm
The study about having a lot of bumper stickers increasing the chances of that driver engaging in road rage reported a whopping SIXTEEN PERCENT increase. It seems to me that a 16% increase in something that isn't particularly common isn't going to make it particularly common.Other Comments by bachfiend
33. Comment #196902 by mmurray on June 20, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Can you match these with your own choice of letters and numbers? There is a guy I see around here who has paid to get ASS01. That would go nicely. There seems to be a game locally with seeing what you can get past the people at the registration branch where you buy your plates. Michael
Other Comments by mmurray
34. Comment #196903 by TeraBrat on June 20, 2008 at 3:10 pm
This wouldn't bother me so much if they offered plates that said "I Don't Believe" as well as plates for EVERY religious denomination in the world.Other Comments by TeraBrat
35. Comment #196962 by mordacious1 on June 20, 2008 at 5:42 pm
I just watched Barry Lynn being interviewed by Laura Ingram on the O'Reilly factor over this. I just wanted to reach in my TV and slap that %^$#@ around. Statements like: It's people like you who drive people to vote for GW. What's wrong with a plate like this? etc S I C K E N I N GThey show this crap about 6 times a day, so you can probably catch it later, or tomorrow, if you can stomach it.
Other Comments by mordacious1
36. Comment #196973 by dragonfirematrix on June 20, 2008 at 7:17 pm
If the states promotes religious(Christian) plates, then the only right thing for them to do is also promote "Atheist," "Secular Humanism," "Humanism," "Wicca," "Thor," "Zeus," "Budda," etc. plates.
I guess the truth, however, is less amusing. The truth is that the Christians (like the Islamic) are trying to start a Dark Age all over the planet. Only our tolerance of the Abrahamics will allow them to succeed.
Other Comments by dragonfirematrix
37. Comment #196983 by adk on June 20, 2008 at 8:30 pm
So much propaganda in religion! Other Comments by adk
38. Comment #196986 by steveroot on June 20, 2008 at 8:43 pm
33. Comment #196902 by mmurray on June 20, 2008 at 3:07 pm
There seems to be a game locally with seeing what you can get past the people at the registration branch where you buy your plates.
Someone has "3MTA3" plates. They look good in a mirror! :-)
http://www.snopes.com/photos/risque/license.asp
Ste5e
Other Comments by steveroot
39. Comment #196988 by Stacey on June 20, 2008 at 8:50 pm
I agree - let's all chip in for the Atheist Fund for vanity plates and make our own!Wait though - here's one more for the mix to agitate your ulcers. I know it's not directly related, and likely you've seen this before, but it is related in the larger sense of religious stupidity - so I have to share this.
Behold and weep for there was much gnashing of teeth...sayeth Boba Fett...
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=DXGhschUNXc&feature=related
We really need to get serious about stopping this bullshit. Why is this country so petrified to actually stand together, say we have had enough, and refuse to allow it? Bitching about it is fine, but protests and letters to politicians DO NOT WORK, they don't care and don't read them anyway. We need a united front on the ground, revolution style...just say NO. And back it up.
Other Comments by Stacey
40. Comment #196990 by Stacey on June 20, 2008 at 9:00 pm
PS @ MelM>>For all I care, they can even tattoo "I believe" on their foreheads. <<
I think that's a brilliant idea actually. Lobby for a federal law requiring all religious nuts to receive the tattoo of their savior on their foreheads (so there won't be any room for the mark of the beast, see? Perfect!) and then we can all see them coming and deal accordingly.
Plus it will be a hell of a lesson learned if down the road they wake up from their delusion, cast off religion but have to look at that tat every time they hit a mirror. Punishment enough!
Other Comments by Stacey
41. Comment #197085 by tahustvedt on June 21, 2008 at 4:18 am
Chuck Norris said that if he became president he'd tattoo an american flag with the words "In god we trust" on the forehead of all atheists. Other Comments by tahustvedt
42. Comment #197206 by moderndaythomas on June 21, 2008 at 11:02 am
Dane said: I think we should ban the Ontario Square and Round Dance Federation's license plate too.
I think so, is it not enough that we have to worry about creation taught in our schools, now it's square dancing! Oh the humanity!
bachfiend said: It seems to me that a 16% increase in something that isn't particularly common isn't going to make it particularly common.
And you wouldn't bother buying a lottery ticket with a 16% chance of winning then would you?
edit: and clearly you don't drive at rush hour.
tahustvedt said: Chuck Norris said that if he became president he'd tattoo an american flag with the words "In god we trust" on the forehead of all atheists.
No kidding? Well Jackie Chan can kick Chucks ass and he's Buddhist isn't he?
Other Comments by moderndaythomas
43. Comment #197292 by BT Murtagh on June 21, 2008 at 3:38 pm
I also live in South Carolina, and among the options already available are plates with the slogan "In God We Trust" - which does not appear to be a privately sponsored plate, and costs the same as a regular plate, so the First Amendment issue has already been ignored in this state for some time.The Secular Humanists Of The Low Country sponsored a plate with the slogan "In Reason We Trust" which you can get if you are a member and willing to pay an additional $30 every two years above and beyond the normal fees. The SCDMV also notes, "As a non-profit organization, The Secular Humanists Of The Low Country do not receive any portion of the funds generated from the license plate sales."
Yeppers, it a purely level playin' field down hyar...
Other Comments by BT Murtagh
44. Comment #197297 by BT Murtagh on June 21, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Oh, and to answer mmurray at #33:In SC you can have a specialty design, or a personalized "Nothing Could Be Finer" plate, but you can't have a personalized specialty plate.
So, sadly, we won't be able to combine "I Believe" with "Darwin" or whatever. :(
Other Comments by BT Murtagh
Over 1.5 million copies sold
Books by Richard Dawkins
The Oxford Book of Modern Science Writing
by Richard Dawkins
The Selfish Gene
by Richard Dawkins
The Blind Watchmaker
by Richard Dawkins
The Ancestor's Tale
by Richard Dawkins
Unweaving the Rainbow
by Richard Dawkins
1. Comment #196673 by Cartomancer on June 20, 2008 at 10:18 am
Perhaps because these things are self-evident and you don't need to constantly remind yourself of how much you really should believe in them in case you suddenly realise what twaddle they are and stop? That's all the crass symbolism of this boils down to - empty vessels making the most noise.
Other Comments by Cartomancer