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Saturday, June 21, 2008 | Reason : Religion as Child Abuse | print version Print | Comments

Document What Happens When a School Board of Religious Zealots Will 'Lie for Jesus'?

by AlterNet

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

http://www.alternet.org/mediaculture/87876/?page=entire&ses=05f6ce90127b35a567cef0bd19f816de

What Happens When a School Board of Religious Zealots Will 'Lie for Jesus'?

Lauri Lebo, author of Devil in Dover, gives an insider's account of a historic court battle about dogma and Darwin in small-town America.

The intelligent design case in Dover, Penn., was the stuff of tabloid dreams: a community divided when a school board led by religious fundamentalists tried to bring creationism into the local biology curriculum. But look beneath the surface, and it was hardly the two-dimensional "science versus religion" narrative favored by the press. As Lauri Lebo, a local reporter who covered the trial, writes, the "'Darwinism'-spouting teachers were preachers' kids; the 'atheist' plaintiffs taught Sunday school; the 'activist' judge was a Bush-appointed Republican; and the journalists labeled 'liars' were willing to go to jail for the truth."

In her new book, The Devil in Dover: An Insider's Story of Dogma v. Darwin in Small-Town America, Lebo writes of her journey through a familiar town made alien by a handful of school board members willing to, as Lebo puts it, "lie for Jesus." Lebo closely follows the story of how a handful of fundamentalists, pushing to include the teaching of creationism in school biology courses change their tack when the conservative Christian Thomas More Law Center gets involved. School board members suddenly stop talking about Jesus and creationism, denying statements they made to local reporters, and saying instead they were advocating the teaching of the so-called science of intelligent design. The lies were outright enough to make the presiding judge flush with anger, who subsequently cited the school board's "breathtaking inanity," in his decision against them.

While it quickly becomes clear who is lying and who is telling the truth in the trial, Lebo explores the far more complex question of why school board members would choose to lie. The weeks she spent covering the trial, speaking intimately with both school board members and the parents in the community who took them on, are a testament to the earnestness and curiosity with which Lebo sought answers to the deeper questions at hand: What was really at stake for those who lied, and why does such a fundamental divide occur not just within a community, but within families? How can we connect with those who do not believe as we do?

Throughout the coverage of the trial, Lebo's narrative weaves courtroom tensions in with the heated conversations she had with her fundamentalist father. It is at once the story of a historic court battle and the story of how the issues at its heart -- faith, belief and truth -- can deeply affect us all.

Lebo sat down with AlterNet to talk about the many characters she met during the trial and her creationist-inspired road trip that left her with more questions -- and a tattoo of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Onnesha Roychoudhuri: At the start of the book, you say, "This isn't a story about God versus science but one of truth versus lies." That conclusion isn't something you took for granted.

Lauri Lebo: I don't come from a science background. This was about scientific proof of the existence of God, and I admit I wasn't sure if that was possible, but I wanted to look into it. I really did come into this with an open mind, but I wanted know what I was talking about. So I threw myself into understanding, I really started working on learning the issues on both sides. When I talked to the real scientists, I noticed that they were always so great about explaining things to me. If I had a question, or if I didn't get it, they'd say, "Let me try to explain it a different way." One scientist from Kansas actually said, "I have to go visit my in-laws this weekend, but here's their number if you need me." I had never even met him beyond talking on the phone, but they were just so helpful.

I started getting suspicious of the other side, like the Discovery Institute, when I found that they would use really long words that didn't really make much sense to me and when I would say, "I'm not understanding your point," they would use the same long words, only they'd say them faster and louder. They never deviated from the script. I started to get the feeling that they weren't being straight with me. At one point, I know that [senior fellow at the Discovery Institute] Jonathan West said to me, "I don't get it. Other reporters get this. You don't. Why are you so obtuse?"

OR: How did Dover start? You write about how, when the school board approached the science teachers about teaching creationism, one of them even laughed, thinking it was a joke. How did the creationist movement gain momentum?

LL: In the minds of science teachers, the idea that creationism is legitimate science is so absurd that they have trouble understanding how anyone could embrace it. The teacher who laughed was Bryan Rehm, a very devout Christian. Actually, most of the science teachers (in this trial) were very religious, which is interesting. This all started when Alan Bonsell ran for school board office. He was really interested in pushing a religious agenda. This was something that grew out of the Moral Majority of the 1980s. A lot of people started running for school boards so that they could get "God back into the schools," as they say. Bonsell was definitely leading this agenda: I don't think it was an accident that he appointed Jane Cleaver, who got a petition going to bring prayer back into the schools, and Bill Buckingham, the religious retired police officer. When vacancies appeared, Alan Bonsell led efforts to get them on the school board to stack the deck with people who shared his views that God should be taught in science class.

Then there was Larry Reeser, the janitor who brought the members of the school board into the school to see this student-painted mural of the evolution of man. It offended him so much. Alan Bonsell said, "They told us over and over again that they're not teaching monkeys-to-man evolution, but here it is right there, there's a mural here that shows that." That really upset him, and that's when he became much more active about pushing his agenda. Finally, Bill Buckingham, who has never been very good at holding his tongue, spoke up and actually said the word "creationism."

OR: The plaintiffs that then gathered together were hardly a group of atheists. Can you explain who these people were?

LL: They really did come from different viewpoints. For instance, Steve Stough, a Christian and science teacher in another school district. His issue was that this isn't science so it should not be in our classrooms. It might work in Sunday school, but it certainly doesn't work in science class. Then there's Tammy Kitzmiller. What bothered her so much was that this was religion. They came at it from different angles, but they believed that they had a responsibility to their community, and came together under the banner of the First Amendment. They felt that they had an obligation to stand up in the face of this.

OR: They were also standing up for their children -- some of whom were very vocal in their opposition of creationism being taught in their school.

LL: Yes. Tammy Kitzmiller's daughter Jess was put in a position where she had to decide whether she wanted to sit there or take her stand. That can be tough for kids, especially in a school district where there are a lot of people who think if you believe in evolution, you can't believe in God, and you're essentially on the outside. There can be a lot of pressure on a kid at that age, and it is sad that they have to go through something like that.

There are a lot of kids out there who are much more reserved. They don't want to make waves, and that's a tough age to have that sort of peer pressure. I'm thinking of the boy out in Ohio. There's an eighth-grade science teacher out there who doesn't believe in evolution, so he's been teaching creationism behind the scenes, passing out Bibles to the kids. He used an electrostatic device in science class to burn the shape of the cross on this Catholic kid's forearm. The parents were afraid to stand up to this. They contacted a lawyer and have tried to stay anonymous. It's hard to believe that an eighth-grade kid would let somebody burn a cross into their arm, but then you think what it's like to be in eighth grade.

OR: And that teacher-student relationship creates a certain dynamic.

LL: Apparently he's also a very well-liked teacher, so that would make it even worse. This is why the courts have taken the forcing of religion into public schools so seriously: It's such a vulnerable population.

OR: You got to know some of the defendants pretty well. Bill Buckingham was a very interesting and conflicted character. I know you have an anecdote in the book where he talks to you about watching his father suffer before he died, and how, despite his rigid religious beliefs, he raised the topic of euthanasia. There seemed to be a disconnect between what he professed to believe and his actions -- in the course of the trial, he lied to the court. But you also describe him going to the stand with a copy of the Constitution in his suit pocket. "In his mind," you write, "the entire case was based on (the) myth of the separation of church and state."

LL: Bill Buckingham and I have a very strange relationship. He and I continue to talk. I do like the way he tells stories, and there are points of him that are confoundingly endearing. However, he didn't tell the truth, and I also know that he tries to manipulate me a lot. I wanted to understand him and why someone would be willing to lie for Jesus the way that he did. I spent a lot of time working with him and trying to get to know him. Some days he'll present a side to me that is insightful, and then the next day he's just full of bluster, back to being the blustery retired cop. But I wanted to use his stories, and the reason I included them was because I want people to understand what motivates someone in his position.

OR: A critical turning point in the story is when the Thomas More Law Center got involved with the Dover school board. That seemed to mark when the board switched from being vocal about the religious element, and using the word "creationism," to talking about "intelligent design" and trying to speak solely in scientific terms.

LL: This for me was the most emotional point of the book because that's when they started lying, as was shown later on in the trial. In the process, they slandered two very religious local reporters. The board initially talked about creationism at a June board meeting. There were two June board meetings, and the first one was well attended, but by the second one, once the stories had come out that they were talking about creationism, there were about 100 people in the room and it was tape-recorded. They again talked about religion, and it was at one of these meetings that Bill Buckingham said, "2,000 years ago, someone died on the cross, won't someone stand up for him." He was talking about putting creationism into the biology curriculum. Of course, once Thomas More got involved, they switched from talking about that to intelligent design.

I've spent so many hours trying to find out exactly when they started talking about intelligent design. Obviously someone told the board, "No, creationism has been struck down by the courts. You can't teach creationism -- how about intelligent design?" And that was clear because Thomas More had been shopping for a test case on intelligent design. They wanted to take it all the way to the Supreme Court. The problem was that, after the plaintiffs filed suit, the lawyers wanted to get this into the court record. The newspaper accounts had quoted them. The public record was a problem. So, somebody had to come up with the idea that they never said "creationism."

OR: You actually found TV footage of Buckingham talking about creationism and brought that to the lawyers. Talk about that moment in the courtroom when Buckingham was shown that footage.

LL: Mike Argento, a fellow reporter, referred to it as the "Homer Simpson moment" where Bill Buckingham was shown the tape and Steve Harvey was questioning him. The whole time on the stand, Buckingham said, "I never talked about creationism." And then they showed the tape and Steve just kind of turns to Bill, waiting for a response from him. There was just silence, and everybody in the courtroom was waiting. And he says, "Well see, that was because the newspapers kept saying I was talking about creationism even though I wasn't so when the TV camera was thrust in my face, I was concentrating so hard on not saying creationism that I said creationism when I meant to say intelligent design." That's why Argento called it the "Homer Simpson moment": Don't say creationism, don't say creationism. Doh. To this day Bill Buckingham still maintains that that's what happened. It's just amazing to me that somebody can just deny, deny, deny. Maybe he has even convinced himself at this point. I don't know.

OR: In order to assert that they had never said "creationism," they had to assert that the two local reporters who had covered the school board meetings were, essentially, liars. Did you or anyone else pose the question to school board members, "How could you do this to these guys?"

LL: I actually asked Dick Thompson, the attorney for the Thomas More Law Center, "What's your position on the 9th Commandment?" It was absurd to think that these reporters had made up anything, but yet that's what we were being told. We were supposed to treat that as no different than the fact that the school board members claimed they were telling the truth. It's that notion of "fair and balanced" -- "we print one side, and we print the other side, and that's it."

That's why I was so happy when I found the tape, because it allowed some context to come in. I will tell you that when the reporters were both testifying, they bore this slander with such grace. I was glad they testified, even though we journalists don't want to go on the stand ever. But in the end they were basically allowed to face their accusers. I know that Margaret Talbot with the New Yorker talked about how emotional she got watching them testify. The editor for the one of the local reporters said she didn't breathe the whole time that Heidi (Bernhard-Bubb, the reporter) was on the stand.

OR: Throughout the book, the plaintiffs, and particularly the lawyers, try to wrap their minds around the lying that goes on. At on point, you write that (plaintiffs' attorney Eric) Rothschild wondered whether it was possible that Alan Bonsell, among others, had convinced himself that what he was telling the truth.

LL: During the whole trial, Alan Bonsell would sit there in the courtroom, wearing this serene smile on his face. He'd spread out his arms and lean back, seeming so assured. Then it's finally his turn to testify. It's pretty obvious at this point that there are some serious issues because Bill Buckingham and others had testified before him and had not been honest. He gets on the stand, and he's chewing gum. He turned to the judge, and said, "What the court needs to understand." I just remember sitting there and thinking, "Oh no, he didn't. He did not just look a federal judge in the eye and lie and blame the reporters."

I was stunned. Judge (John E.) Jones never changed his facial expression, but he did hold (Bonsell's) gaze. When Steve Harvey had finished cross-examining him, it was really obvious that Bonsell had lied in his depositions, and that's when Judge Jones asked to see the depositions and compare it to others. Bonsell seemed like he was the only person in the courtroom who was unaware of the seriousness of what was happening. He continued to rock in his chair back and forth and was still chewing his gum. Everybody else was looking around the courtroom at each other like, what is going on here? I was looking over at the plaintiffs' attorneys, wondering, Is this normal? Does this happen?

Meanwhile, as Judge Jones was reading the documents that showed Bonsell had lied, his face was getting redder and redder. Alan seemed like this blissful gazelle, drinking at the water while the lion is stalking him across the savanna.

OR: Throughout the book, the narrative of the trial is woven together with that of your relationship with your father. During the trial, you had these daily conversations with your father about the principles of what was going on, and you'd frequently disagree -- one of you hanging up on the other, and then trying all over again the next day. Toward the end of the book, when your father's health is declining, you find yourself having trouble saying, "I'm a Christian." How did this trial affect your sense of faith?

LL: I wrestled with how much of my father to include in the book. One of the main reasons I did was because I wanted people to understand that I'm not anti-Christian. I loved my father dearly, and he had many great qualities. He also had many flaws, but he practiced his faith as I think he was supposed to do it.

As a writer, I didn't feel like I had a lot of redeeming qualities to present on behalf of Alan Bonsell and Bill Buckingham in terms of the way they presented themselves during the trial and at school board meetings. I wanted people to understand that there are people who do practice their faith and who would not lie in the name of Jesus. I will say a lot of things about my dad, but he would not lie in the name of Jesus. He had the courage of his convictions.

In terms of my faith, ultimately, I had been becoming less of a believer over time. One thing I learned from this experience is that you can't be responsible for other people's fears. It breaks my heart, and I kind of wish I would have continued to pretend to be a Christian right up until my father's death because then he could have died believing that he would be with me again. Maybe that would have given him some peace but ultimately, when someone used to ask me, "Are you saved?" I would always pretend. I don't know why I did that, but I will never do it again. When people ask me, I'm very honest that I don't consider myself a believer. It doesn't matter if it's a loved one or a stranger.

OR: You felt very emotional about the trial, and your father's health. You describe your heart being full, and the need to speak with people about your conflicted thoughts. I thought it was interesting that you made the distinction: Some people you spoke to wanted to save your soul, but you say they weren't really interested in your heart.

LL: I did turn to [local pastor] Ed Rowand at one point because I was so emotionally raw. I found that when I'd want to discuss things like that, as soon as I said I wasn't a believer, he lost interest in me. I was irredeemable I guess; I wasn't on the fence.

OR: Among scientists, there simply is no "controversy" over intelligent design and evolution. You pose the question in your book, "So why isn't the message getting through to the public?" In some ways, you blame journalism -- and you cite an instance in which you had words with your editor over "fair and balanced" coverage.

LL: That was awful. There is this notion that you have to be careful that you're not taking a side, and I understand that that's important to journalism, but at the same time, I honestly believe that if we just take two sides and devote equal space to each, that we are lying. It's is our job to inform readers. They need to come away with more information, not be more confused. Journalism is in disarray today.

I think that's of course what happened with the Iraq War, and I think that's what's happening with so many issues.

If someone were to go back and take a look at my first couple of stories, they'd probably see that they were pretty even. But that's because I hadn't done enough homework, and by "doing homework," I mean gathering information from both sides and sifting through and weighing the evidence. This "fair and balanced" approach makes us like a sponge: We're supposed to just soak up the information and then wring it back out. But then we haven't accumulated any knowledge. That's crazy: It's denying everything I've learned. That night, my editor Randy tried to get me to change the lead because he thought we were piling too much on intelligent design. I was really scared because I thought he would take me off the story if I didn't agree, and there I was, three-quarters of the way through the trial ... but I also knew I couldn't lie, and that's what it would have amounted to.

OR: Throughout the book, you show how "intelligent design" has been put forth in various ever-changing guises. The plaintiffs' lawyers found earlier drafts of the textbook the school board was looking to get into the classroom, "Of Pandas and People." These drafts showed that, as each progressive phase of ID had been debunked, the editors of the textbook had cut and paste a newer term -- thus an error in a 1987 draft of the textbook in an attempt to replace creationism: "cdesign proponentsists."

LL: One scientist, Nick Matzke, can pronounce it the best. He calls it the transitional fossil.

OR: It really is the evolution of intelligent design, isn't it?

LL: When I write about it, I try not to beat that metaphor too hard, but it's really inescapable. Every time they get smacked down by the courts, they have to revamp what they're saying. But what's interesting is that they want to get it into science classes so much, the end result is that they water down their belief system. That's why a lot of people say that intelligent design is not only not science, it's also really bad theology.

OR: What surprised me is that, after the court adjourned, you immediately decided to go on a creationist-inspired road trip. It seemed like there was this curiosity that kept driving you.

LL: I had a writer friend who told me that when you can't let go of an issue, you know you need to write. That may have been the case with me. I had read all about these creationist museums and places, and I really wanted to see what they were, what were they espousing. Two weeks alone in the car was also a way to process all the information. But, again, I just found the same arguments over and over again.

I did do my homework researching the creationist side, and I'm proud that I spent a lot of time hearing their arguments and weighing them against the science. But it does bother me how divided we are. I just don't understand, and I spend a lot of time talking to my husband about why we can't come together with the fundamentalists and evangelicals. I don't know how we can. That's really the conclusion that I came to when I returned home. I thought that maybe I could find some common ground. I use tectonic plates as the metaphor. While I was driving, I was thinking about how fascinating the geography and geology of this country is, tectonic plates shifting and pushing up mountains. And a lot of fundamentalists aren't interested in that. So I don't know where the common ground is. I guess that's a sad ending for a book, but I haven't figured out where we can have common ground.

Onnesha Roychoudhuri is a San Francisco-based writer and editor. She has written for AlterNet, The American Prospect, Salon, MotherJones, Truthdig, In These Times, Huffington Post and Women's eNews.

Comments 1 - 42 of 42 |

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1. Comment #197210 by 2/cb on June 21, 2008 at 11:14 am

we need a seperation of church and state here in the Uk .

Other Comments by 2/cb

2. Comment #197216 by mordacious1 on June 21, 2008 at 11:30 am

I suppose the only way we could have common ground with the cretinists, is if they decided to keep their superstitions to themselves and not push them on the rest of us. We know that ain't gonna happen.

Other Comments by mordacious1

3. Comment #197217 by black wolf on June 21, 2008 at 11:32 am

 avatarIt's fascinating how often fundamentalists, and even many moderates, pressed for a clear statement, find themselves between two options: lie to yourself or lie to others. If you're a believer, both options mean you're lying to God. Laurie Lebo realized she wasn't going to lie to herself or to others by obfuscating the issue, so she took the step of honesty, which was the step out of a dishonest belief system.

Other Comments by black wolf

4. Comment #197218 by black wolf on June 21, 2008 at 11:36 am

 avatarmordacious1,
we not only know it's not gonna happen, we know it can not happen by principle. Their superstitions require pushing them on others, and as they've been proudly practicing it for centuries, they target the most vulnerable minds first and foremost.

Other Comments by black wolf

5. Comment #197219 by Quine on June 21, 2008 at 11:38 am

 avatarThey found the "transitional fossil" between Creationism and Intelligent Design; I love it.

Other Comments by Quine

6. Comment #197224 by The Schuermannator on June 21, 2008 at 11:52 am

 avatarIntelligent design was designed by non-intellectuals.

Other Comments by The Schuermannator

7. Comment #197231 by Border Collie on June 21, 2008 at 12:11 pm

I DO NOT put up with people asking me "Are you saved?" any longer. My response varies, but is essentially all or part of this: "Are you? It's none of your f'ing business. You have no right to ask me that question. Are you being paid for this? Get out of my face now or I'll call the police. (yelling) Religious abuse! Religious abuse! and/or the always welcome 'Bite me or F' you'. Most of the time I just walk away, if I can. You can't believe how pernicious and persistent the "are you saved" a'holes are in Texas. I've even threatened a few with physical harm. But, sometimes I really feel like having fun with them so I 'escalate to the ridiculous' by singing/praying/praising very loudly and ridiculously and doing the fundy sway (like the football wave). Along with that, I've even started to limp and asked them to cure me. Sometimes I just pretend that I'm deaf. So, see, if you have a slightly crazy streak like me, you really can have fun with fundies ... if you're so inclined.

Other Comments by Border Collie

8. Comment #197236 by Border Collie on June 21, 2008 at 12:17 pm

Lying for Jesus? Oh, God, tell me it isn't so!!! Boo, hoo, hoo! My world is shattered!!! Just kidding. No, really, any of you guys who were raised by/with fundies already know that they are some of the worst liars on the planet. I do some work in real estate and any time I walked into a house-builder's office and saw a stack of religious books on his desk (yes, it's common in Texas), I'd just turn around and walk out like I was lost because I knew that everything he would say to me would be a lie. It happened too many times.

Other Comments by Border Collie

9. Comment #197239 by quill on June 21, 2008 at 12:22 pm

 avatarThat's the feeling I get when talking to this people. It's depressing, but there's just no possibility to find any common ground with them. You can't even use the metaphor of tectonic plates the author mentioned, because when you do that, you find out that they literally do not believe in tectonic plates. They're just too far gone.

Other Comments by quill

10. Comment #197244 by Raiko on June 21, 2008 at 12:30 pm

 avatarI loved the part at the beginning when the Discovery Institute just wailed the same stuff the louder the more she told them it wasn't understandable to her. I sometimes get the feelings when fundamentalists try to argue their case, they don't actually understand the arguments themselves. How could they? It would require understanding science and they vehemently refuse to learn anything about it.


The sad part is that with all the repeating, they make things even easier for no-thinkers to repeat without understanding as well, and people then start believing that there's a true point to all the lies. Just recently I had some undereducated person in my car who pretended to me he was a lawyer and proceeded to call the struggle Barbara Forrester has in the USA an "expression of American democracy". Thanks to him and the Discovery Institute, I now know that American democracy apparently involves excluding the rest of the world, entails lying, talking about things you don't understand, refusing to learn about them and not explaining your points and arguments when asked to. In that case, I'd rather not have that sort of democracy.

Other Comments by Raiko

11. Comment #197254 by shemp333 on June 21, 2008 at 1:06 pm

 avatarSounds like this book will be a great read. The PBS special on their website called "Intelligent Design on Trial", is a fabulous television program about the trial. I recomend it.

Other Comments by shemp333

12. Comment #197256 by Janus on June 21, 2008 at 1:06 pm

 avatar"This isn't a story about God versus science but one of truth versus lies."


Is there a difference?

Other Comments by Janus

13. Comment #197268 by epeeist on June 21, 2008 at 1:54 pm

 avatarComment #197231 by Border Collie

I DO NOT put up with people asking me "Are you saved?" any longer.
In the small town that I work in (Macclefield in the UK if anyone is interested) I used to be given leaflets by a set of young women wearing long skirts and tiny triangular headscarves proclaiming the "Truth of the Bible".

I got sick of it and one day asked one of them how old she thought the earth was and was there a global flood. She really couldn't defend her position very well and wasn't happy that I was speaking reasonably loudly.

These days they tend to disappear up side alleys when they see me coming. Quite gratifying really.

Other Comments by epeeist

14. Comment #197271 by Brian English on June 21, 2008 at 2:12 pm

Epeeist, at the time of your confrontation, were you perchance brandishing a foil or sabre?

Other Comments by Brian English

15. Comment #197274 by rod-the-farmer on June 21, 2008 at 2:20 pm

 avatarAlthough my driveway is about 1300 feet long (we live on a farm) I am hoping they come by one more time. Last time I said "Boy have YOU come to the wrong place - I'm a militant atheist". They left immediately.

This time I plan to ask them if they know about the prescription against blood transfusions, and if they know transfusions have been done since the early 1900's, and finally if they know when their leadership decided "they" were against it. I think it was 1949. I will ask them to explain why it took so long.

I will make sure there are chairs on my front porch, so we can sit down and have a looooong discussion about their beliefs, and see how many holes I can poke in them before they give up and leave. I figure this is a sort of charitable donation to the community. I figure I am deflecting this sort of nonsense from others who may not have the time or inclination to debate with these guys. I wonder if I can get a tax deduction ?

And epeeist, I like your idea of the age of the earth and the flood as topics worthy of discussion. Myself, I am partial to Noah and his ark. In a farming community there are always people who can tell you off the top of their heads, just how much fodder a cow or horse eats in 40 days. Not many boat-builders around here who can explain why you DON'T load a ship with the cargo while the boat is sitting in drydock, you wait until it is afloat and the entire hull can help bear the weight.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

16. Comment #197280 by Barry Pearson on June 21, 2008 at 2:48 pm

 avatarFor interest, her book is at the link below, and the reviews are well worth reading. This sounds like a great book.
http://www.amazon.com/Devil-Dover-Insiders-Small-town-America/dp/1595582088/

EDIT:
epeeist, for interest: I'm in Stockport.

Other Comments by Barry Pearson

17. Comment #197284 by EvidenceOnly on June 21, 2008 at 2:59 pm

When Jehovah Witnesses knock knock knock on my door, I tell them that I've been waiting to convert their sort to my religion and that so far I have a 100% success rate. At that point they run like the devil is chasing them.

We should not be surprised that religious people lie for their religion when it is obvious that all religions are based on lies. Lying for Jesus is actually what I expect them to do. It would be really strange to me if they were did anything else. Truth and honesty don't get you from beliefs without evidence to reality.

Other Comments by EvidenceOnly

18. Comment #197287 by decius on June 21, 2008 at 3:27 pm

 avatar
"2,000 years ago, someone died on the cross, won't someone stand up for him."


Now, this is a jewel. Possibly the 14 most fallacious words ever put together in one breath.


Appeal to emotion.

Unstated major premise 1- this someone is divine in nature, thus deserves special consideration compared to thousands of others similarly executed.

Unstated major premise 2- the same someone validates earlier accounts of creation of the book of Genesis.

Appeal to authority- the word of the divine someone supersedes all available scientific evidence.

Non sequitur- even if all of the above were true, militancy doesn't follow.

Have I forgotten something?

Other Comments by decius

19. Comment #197302 by polishrequiem on June 21, 2008 at 4:07 pm

Lebo is a class act. I'm so glad she's written this book. I look forward to reading it.

Other Comments by polishrequiem

20. Comment #197303 by BT Murtagh on June 21, 2008 at 4:10 pm

 avatarInternal inconsistency- that same someone supposedly had infinite magical powers and didn't have to die at all, therefore did not need anyone to stand up for him.

Unstated mitigation of emotional appeal- the 'death' only lasted for one weekend.

I could probably come up with some more, but even a small dose of theology can give me the pip, and I'm hoping to get in some godless revelry tonight.

Other Comments by BT Murtagh

21. Comment #197305 by Quine on June 21, 2008 at 4:22 pm

 avatarRod:
... just how much fodder a cow or horse eats in 40 days.


In these discussions I often find that the believers don't know the details of their own story. In Genesis, Noah and the rest were stuck on the Ark for over a year. Then, when they got off, there were no crops, so Noah had to pack away something like two years of food for all. I wonder how much a T. rex eats in a couple of years.

Also, the folks stop talking to me when I ask them which of Noah's daughters-in-law were Chinese and which were Ethiopian?

Other Comments by Quine

22. Comment #197306 by decius on June 21, 2008 at 4:35 pm

 avatarWell spotted, BT.

Have a nice evening.

Other Comments by decius

23. Comment #197313 by jimbob on June 21, 2008 at 5:37 pm

I actually asked Dick Thompson, the attorney for the Thomas More Law Center, "What's your position on the 9th Commandment?" It was absurd to think that these reporters had made up anything, but yet that's what we were being told. We were supposed to treat that as no different than the fact that the school board members claimed they were telling the truth. It's that notion of "fair and balanced" -- "we print one side, and we print the other side, and that's it."

Another "Oops, there goes #9 again" moment.

This site should run a top 50 list of the best of these!

;-)

Other Comments by jimbob

24. Comment #197314 by ebugogo on June 21, 2008 at 5:37 pm

 avatarI don't know if any one else has experienced this, but, once in northern B.C., I had some thumpers come to my door. I naturally proceeded to abuse them with vigorous profanity. The next morning some one had drawn strange hieroglyphs all over my concrete porch with side walk chalk.
oooo booga booga!

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25. Comment #197316 by SPS on June 21, 2008 at 5:50 pm

This is the link to the PBS program, Judgment Day: Intelligent Design on Trial, referenced by Shemp333.

Creationism is like weighing yourself on a broken scale. You may like what you see, but it doesn't make it true...results may vary.

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26. Comment #197321 by 8teist on June 21, 2008 at 6:14 pm

 avatarSpeaking of creationists... Check out Pharyngula blog they`ve all gone mad over there . PZ called for opinions on some creotardo called Ken Ham ........woo hoo the gloves have come off....its all on for young and old

Other Comments by 8teist

27. Comment #197425 by RightWingAtheist on June 22, 2008 at 3:03 am

 avatarSomeone DOES have to stand up for Jesus. His feet must be f#cking killing him.


I suppose, if someone asked if I have been saved, I would ask "From what?" If they say "Hell", I would certainly say that I don't believe "hell" exists.

Other Comments by RightWingAtheist

28. Comment #197427 by epeeist on June 22, 2008 at 3:10 am

 avatarComment #197271 by Brian English
Epeeist, at the time of your confrontation, were you perchance brandishing a foil or sabre?
A crab salad sandwich as far as I remember.

I was extremely polite, just spoke a little louder than normal. There were a few looks of amusement from by passers.

Other Comments by epeeist

29. Comment #197441 by decius on June 22, 2008 at 3:51 am

 avatar
A crab salad sandwich


A mighty weapon, although I tend to prefer falafel sandwiches for close confrontations. The high content of garlic gives you that extra edge that may prove fatal to the opponent.

Other Comments by decius

30. Comment #197443 by bladesman on June 22, 2008 at 3:59 am

 avatarThe book sounds like it's gonna be gripping. It's gone straight on my Amazon wishlist. :o)

Other Comments by bladesman

31. Comment #197456 by Chris Davis on June 22, 2008 at 5:13 am

 avatarI reckon that, in protest, the REAL Dover (up the A20 from Folkestone) should rename itself Freedomville.

That'll show 'em.

CD

Other Comments by Chris Davis

32. Comment #197492 by Barry Pearson on June 22, 2008 at 8:55 am

 avatar
#197456 by Chris Davis: I reckon that, in protest, the REAL Dover (up the A20 from Folkestone) should rename itself Freedomville.
"There'll be Blue Birds over the White Cliffs of Freedomville"?

Other Comments by Barry Pearson

33. Comment #197633 by thewhitepearl on June 22, 2008 at 12:04 pm

 avatarWow I want this book....

"and a tattoo of the Flying Spaghetti Monster"

Ha that's wonderful. I've been thinking about getting a scarlet A...

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

34. Comment #197636 by Vaal on June 22, 2008 at 12:08 pm

 avatarI hope this book is made into a film. It will show exactly the campaign of deceit perpetrated by the Cretinists. A film could be a much more powerful vehicle of information than a book, unfortunately.

Tom Hanks? How about it?

Other Comments by Vaal

35. Comment #197643 by AllanW on June 22, 2008 at 12:18 pm

 avatar'Tom Hanks? How about it? '

As versatile and bankrollable as Hanks is, I don't think he'd play a believable Tammy Kitzmiller ...

Other Comments by AllanW

36. Comment #197660 by Quine on June 22, 2008 at 12:51 pm

 avatarLast year I went to visit some friends who live in a small town in rural Northern California. I had with me a copy of Monkey Girl: Evolution, Education, Religion, and the Battle for America's Soul, by Edward Humes, which also goes into the small town politics behind the Dover trial. My friends have a daughter in the local high school who gets flack from the believers. Her mother took the book into the back room and started reading while dad and I were talking technology in the kitchen.

Periodically, great explosions were heard in the back room when mom got to parts of the book were the local morons did the underhanded things they did. It just hit too close to home.

Other Comments by Quine

37. Comment #197664 by Vaal on June 22, 2008 at 1:01 pm

 avatarAllanW

You are absolutely right :-)

Jodie Foster? How about it?

Other Comments by Vaal

38. Comment #197666 by decius on June 22, 2008 at 1:06 pm

 avatarYeah, but whom would you cast as Behe?

Other Comments by decius

39. Comment #197671 by Vaal on June 22, 2008 at 1:13 pm

 avatarCome on decius

No doubt about that one... Ben Stein!

Other Comments by Vaal

40. Comment #197673 by decius on June 22, 2008 at 1:24 pm

 avatarAh, you prefer Neo-Realism and the Stanivlaski's system.

Other Comments by decius

41. Comment #197710 by AllanW on June 22, 2008 at 2:14 pm

 avatar'Jodie Foster? How about it? '

I'd have thought the casting takes care of itself;

Tammy Kitzmiller - Jodie Foster
Michael Behe - Gary Oldman
Ken Miller - Hugh Laurie
Judge Jones - Kevin Costner

Guaranteed blockbuster :)

Other Comments by AllanW

42. Comment #198170 by kev_s on June 23, 2008 at 9:57 am

I'm just reading "Under the Banner of Heaven" by John Krakauer about the religious killing of a mother and child by Mormon fundamentalists.
Heavy stuff and a 'wtf' on every page.
Astonishing the extent to which the religious will lie. They justify it usually by something that amounts to 'the ends justifies the means'.
Rather like the Scientologists, the Mormons seem to regard anyone not of their faith as 'fair game'.

Other Comments by kev_s
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