Tuesday, June 24, 2008 | Reason : Religion as Child Abuse | print version

Saudi Marriage Officiant : 'It Is Allowed To Marry A Girl At The Age Of One'.

by Live Leak

Thanks to burn0gas for the link.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8d4_1214302019

Saudi Marriage Officiant : 'It Is Allowed To Marry A Girl At The Age Of One'.

Aired on LBC TV (Lebanon) - June 19, 2008 - 00:03:08 :

Dr. Ahmad Al-Mub'i, a Saudi Marriage Officiant: It Is Allowed to Marry a Girl at the Age of One, If Sex Is postponed. The Prophet Muhammad, Whose Model We Follow, Married 'Aisha When She Was Six and Had Sex with Her When She Was Nine :

Following are excerpts from an interview with Dr. Ahmad Al-Mu'bi, a Saudi marriage officiant, which aired on LBC TV on June 19, 2008:

Dr. Ahmad Al-Mu'bi: Marriage is actually two things: First we are talking about the marriage contract itself. This is one thing, while consummating the marriage – having sex with the wife for the first time – is another thing. There is no minimal age for entering marriage. You can have a marriage contract even with a one-year-old girl, not to mention a girl of nine, seven, or eight. This is merely a contract [indicating] consent. The guardian in such a case must be the father, because the father's opinion is obligatory. Thus, the girl becomes a wife... But is the girl ready for sex or not? What is the appropriate age for having sex for the first time? This varies according to environment and traditions. In Yemen, girls are married off at nine, ten, eleven, eight, or thirteen, while in other countries, they are married off at 16. Some countries have legislated laws forbidding having sex before the girl is eighteen.

[...]

The Prophet Muhammad is the model we follow. He took 'Aisha to be his wife when she was six, but he had sex with her only when she was nine.

Interviewer: When she was six...

Dr. Ahmad Al-Mu'bi: He married her at the age of six, and he consummated the marriage, by having sex with her for the first time, when she was nine. We consider the Prophet Muhammad to be our model.

Interviewer: My question to you is whether the marriage of a 12-year-old boy with an 11-year-old girl is a logical marriage, which is permitted by Islamic law.

Dr. Ahmad Al-Mu'bi: If the guardian is the father... There are two different types of guardianship. If the guardian is the father, and he marries his daughter off to a man of appropriate standing, the marriage is obviously valid.

[...]

People find themselves in all kinds of circumstances. Take, for example, a man who has two, three, or four daughters. He does not have any wives, but he needs to go on a trip. Isn't it better to marry his daughter to a man, who will protect and sustain her, and when she reaches the proper age, he will have sex with her? Who says all men are ferocious wolves?

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1. Comment #198649 by Devolution on June 24, 2008 at 10:47 am

Hmmmm yep makes perfect sense to me. /evolutionary survival skill>

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2. Comment #198652 by Vaal on June 24, 2008 at 10:49 am

The Prophet Muhammad is the model we follow. He took 'Aisha to be his wife when she was six, but he had sex with her only when she was nine.

So, your model is a self serving sexual monster imposing himself on little more than a child. As I have said before, if I had met this sick bast*d, I would have beaten him to an inch of his life.

If Mohammad had jumped off a cliff, would these brain dead sheep follow him? What a shame he didn't.

Other Comments by Vaal

3. Comment #198655 by Dhamma on June 24, 2008 at 10:49 am

Sick.... fucking.... bastards!

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4. Comment #198657 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 24, 2008 at 10:50 am

Muhammad really is quite vile, Jesus wasn't that bad. Not great but relative to a warmongering paedo.

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5. Comment #198660 by PrimeNumbers on June 24, 2008 at 10:52 am

So Muhammed is a paedophile and a child molester. Lovely. And here now, we've had a Saudi official confirm it. So, when can we start buying the Muhammed is paedophile T-Shirts?

Other Comments by PrimeNumbers

6. Comment #198662 by Apathy personified on June 24, 2008 at 10:54 am

Why would anyone WANT to marry a 1 year old?

Truly disgusting.

Other Comments by Apathy personified

7. Comment #198663 by al-rawandi on June 24, 2008 at 10:54 am

Everyone should read Imam Khomeini's Tahrirvasiyoleh where he enumerates that is acceptable to perform sex acts with any girl who is no longer Radi'yya (breast feeding) as long as it is short of vaginal sex.

So you can marry a 1 year old, but you have to wait until she is 9 to screw her. Such a touching demarcation!

But if you read the story of A'isha, Muhammad would take baths with her and "fondle" her in the bath, and make her fondle him as well. So even before she was 9, she was essentially molested.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

8. Comment #198665 by JemyM on June 24, 2008 at 10:56 am

Muhammad really is quite vile, Jesus isn't that bad.

It depends. Muhammad did get married with a young person, but it was common back then. We do not know much about Jesus life at all.

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9. Comment #198666 by TeraBrat on June 24, 2008 at 10:56 am

Way back when when human life expectancy was much much lower and most people did not get an education it made sense for them to get married and start having children as early as possible from a reproductive AND evolutionary point of view. The longer you waited the less chance you had to pass on your genes. I'm quite sure most people married at adolescence in those days.

The problem is that the world has changed and life expectancies are higher and the world is overpopulated so you don't want to have a dozen children and would need a really good job to feed and cloth them. These people are still stuck in the mindset of the prophet Muhammed who lived about 1500 years ago.

Yup it's a problem.

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10. Comment #198669 by mejdrich on June 24, 2008 at 10:58 am

"He married her at the age of six, and he consummated the marriage, by having sex with her for the first time, when she was nine. We consider the Prophet Muhammad to be our model."

"Who says all men are ferocious wolves?"

The irony is stunning.

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11. Comment #198671 by liberalartist on June 24, 2008 at 11:00 am

so basically women are slaves in the muslim world. To marry off your daughter at the age of one, three, nine, or sixteen is to treat her as livestock. Nothing more, nothing less.

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12. Comment #198672 by advocatus_diaboli on June 24, 2008 at 11:00 am

"Officer, I swear she didn't tell me she was 1. She looked 2 and a half at the very least."

It is heartening to know that in some areas, at least, progress has been made over the past few thousand years.

So where are all the drunken 16 year-olds at anyway?

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13. Comment #198673 by Dhamma on June 24, 2008 at 11:01 am

So Muhammed is a paedophile and a child molester. Lovely. And here now, we've had a Saudi official confirm it. So, when can we start buying the Muhammed is paedophile T-Shirts?

I just think it's such a no-no that people don't talk about it. I say it all the time when I debate with muslims on the net, and they get outrageous :) I mentioned it once when I talked to a muslim I was working with, and I think he wanted to kill me on the spot, so I prefer making them pissed where I'm saved behind the screen instead :)

I really hope people start talking about it more, as somewhere deep within us, everyone knows how bizarre it is, and they can't really defend it either.

Above all, the bastard was over 50 when he molested her.

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14. Comment #198675 by Quetzalcoatl on June 24, 2008 at 11:02 am

Dr. Ahmad Al-Mu'bi: He married her at the age of six, and he consummated the marriage, by having sex with her for the first time, when she was nine. We consider the Prophet Muhammad to be our model

This quote will be a good answer to anyone who claims that Muhammad was not a paedophile, I think.

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15. Comment #198678 by Vaal on June 24, 2008 at 11:05 am

TeraBrat

Correct me if I am wrong Al, but wasn't Mohammad in his 50's when he consummated his marriage with a 9 year old child. It wouldn't have had anything to do with having as many children as possible, as he probably had many offspring by then. It was no more than a sick old man lusting after a child. Was there nothing that their Prophet could do that would make his followers actually think "what a complete tosser".

I see now why women in Islam have to hide themselves from men who aren't their husbands (possessions). Islam presumes that practically all men are nothing more than sexual predators, in fact just like their prophet, who is such a good example.

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16. Comment #198681 by al-rawandi on June 24, 2008 at 11:10 am

Vaal,

At that point Muhammad was in his fifties. Aisha's father Abu Bakr objected to the marriage saying to Muhammad:

AB: "Are we not brothers" (you can't marry my daughter)
Mo: "We are brothers in Islam, therefore she is licit for me to marry".

Thus Muhammad got the consent to marry Aisha. She was one of quite a lot of wives, but was his favorite, and was early on tasked with washing semen stains from Muhammad's garmets.

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17. Comment #198682 by clatz on June 24, 2008 at 11:12 am

It's sick and disturbing, but that's Islam for you.

To be fair to the man, he is being reasonable ...

[SHUDDER]

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18. Comment #198684 by Cartomancer on June 24, 2008 at 11:14 am

The sad thing is that many, many muslims out there see nothing wrong with calling the unlovely union of a middle-aged man with a six year old girl a legitimate "marriage" and yet would be mortally offended at the idea of two loving, committed women or men getting married to one another.

Liberalartist has the right of it. To this mindset marriage is property contract. It's like buying a car or a house or a camel. And it actually assumes that women NEED to be bought and sold and "protected" by marriage, and will be GRATEFUL for it. And I dare say many poor women in benighted islamic countries actually ARE grateful.

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19. Comment #198685 by Szkeptik on June 24, 2008 at 11:14 am

Ahh, what did you expect?

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20. Comment #198686 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 24, 2008 at 11:14 am

How can you be moral without God. Well for a start you don't marry a one year old.

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21. Comment #198687 by mordacious1 on June 24, 2008 at 11:15 am

I always thought that the, "Old enough to breathe, old enough for me" line was just a sick joke, and then along comes islam...

So if I want to go on a trip, I could take my daughter with me...Oh wait, I could marry her off. Saves on restaurant bills, good thinking.

Boy, If these guys could just step back and take a look at their religion from the outside, they would have to be ashamed.

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22. Comment #198689 by Podaar on June 24, 2008 at 11:16 am

16. Comment #198681 by al-rawandi

"It interests me how much you seem to know of that world." Mal said to Shepard

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23. Comment #198691 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 24, 2008 at 11:16 am

I'm going to point out that some of us have been mentioning little details like that and recieving nothing but outcries from certain people - you know who you are - outcries of of 'Fascist!' 'Racist!' 'It's all due to American foreign policy!' for quite some time.

Way back when when human life expectancy was much much lower and most people did not get an education it made sense for them to get married and start having children as early as possible from a reproductive AND evolutionary point of view. The longer you waited the less chance you had to pass on your genes. I'm quite sure most people married at adolescence in those days.

Sorry, that doesn't fly. That logic explains why Romeo and Juliet were written to be so young, but it doesn't explain this kind of perversion. Long before Muhammad there were those who had understood that this was bullshit. Christ did so. I'm pretty sure that the Buddha also did.

Oh, and just in case anyone thinks that this is confined to Saudi Arabia, the mosques in Britain preach the same thing. And they are on videotape as having said it.

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24. Comment #198694 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 24, 2008 at 11:20 am

Oh, and because this seriously deserves mentioning :

The Islam's Not For Me song:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=89jHc4ysBkk

"He justified perversion in the name of Allah
When he married a girl too young for a bra.
She was playing with dolls when the Prophet came
Her childhood was stolen in Allah's name
Aisha was nine when he took her to bed
Don't tell me that guy's not sick in the head"

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25. Comment #198695 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on June 24, 2008 at 11:21 am

Boring. Change the record, anyone who is sensible calls a spade a spade, you'll only find that coming from politicians and ignoramuses.

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26. Comment #198698 by DavidJGrossman on June 24, 2008 at 11:23 am

Why exactly should we be tolerant of this crap? Religious approval of child rape deserves exactly what it gets; ridicule and condemnation.

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27. Comment #198699 by rod-the-farmer on June 24, 2008 at 11:24 am

Who says all men are ferocious wolves?

Well, I guess that would be muslim men. After all, isn't it they who insist that women cover their hair, their faces, and their bodies ? Why cover the women, if not to keep them from inciting ferocious islamic wolves ? And not just their own relatives, other women too, even if they are just visiting. Do not pass Go, do not collect 200 lashes. Does it never occur to men in muslim countries, to ask how western and other non-islamic societies survive for thousands of years, with all those uncovered women out there ? I mean, are these other men not ferocious wolves too ? Why is the population of such wolves restricted to just muslim countries ? Hmm.

Also, has anyone asked what happens if the woman/girl/child does not WANT to marry the person the father has chosen ? Oh, sorry, that would be holding Islam up for hatred. My bad.

Now that it is official a muslim man can marry a one-year old, I think I better start keeping score as to how many times I say "You couldn't make this stuff up". I am already into the high single figures.

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28. Comment #198704 by advocatus_diaboli on June 24, 2008 at 11:27 am

Christ did so. I'm pretty sure that the Buddha also did.

It is commonly taught in Christianity that Mary was somewhere between 12 and 14 when she conceived Jesus.

The Buddha did not advocate marriage in general but did lay down some general guidelines which does not cover age. It usually depends upon what society adopts Buddhism as to how it views marriage and is not so much a matter of Buddhism itself.

So basically Jesus was popped out of a kid and Buddha was mums the word. Care to try again?

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29. Comment #198707 by ssssss on June 24, 2008 at 11:30 am

Comment #198665 by JemyM on June 24, 2008 at 10:56 am

Muhammad did get married with a young person, but it was common back then.

It was not that common at the time for 54 year olds to marry 6 year olds (and he had his eye on her from when she was 5), even her father baulked at the idea despite the fact that it involved his prophet who murdered anyone who disagreed with him.

Marrying from 12 years plus was quite common - but generally with people who were of a similar age (or the guy being less than c 25 years old).
Note there is significant evidence in the Hadith that Aisha did not start menstruating until she was 14.

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30. Comment #198710 by Sciros on June 24, 2008 at 11:34 am

Well, I wouldn't use "significant evidence" and "in the Hadith" in succession, or even in the same sentence, but that's an aside.

Anyway this is pretty disturbing and I'm surprised it's not as condemned as it ought to be considering it's apparently not uncommon knowledge...

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31. Comment #198712 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 24, 2008 at 11:37 am

Why exactly should we be tolerant of this crap? Religious approval of child rape deserves exactly what it gets; ridicule and condemnation.

Yes, this is utterly revolting. But in a way it's the apologists who sicken me more. These guys are monsters, period. They're brought up to think this stuff's okay. I think of them as rabid dogs; they need to put down - wiped out, exterminated - but there's no point in getting furious.

Yet there has been a defeaning silence from all those who are supposed to sound the alarm. Let's see now, where are the feminists? I mean, surely, surely they will raise hell about this?

*crickets chirping*

Yeah, I thought so. Of course, maybe I'm being unfair. Remember the huge outcry when the head mufti of Australia said that in 90% of the cases a woman's raped it's her fault? Funny, neither do I.

There has been a collosal failure on the part of those who say it's their job to stop this stuff. You can, and I have, search the website of NOW and find not one mention of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, nor any attempt to raise funds for her protection.

When they are hectored enough by guys like David Horowitz, Robert Spencer and Mark Steyn they manage to bring out some sort of pro-forma denunciation, but it's always "Yes, of course we're against child-rape, honour killings, forced marriage and clitorectimonies, it's just not as important to us as the lack of female pipe-fitters. That's the issue we should be concentrating on!"

The hell with the lot of them. It's shame I'm going to be forced to save their goddamn necks in the process of saving my own.

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32. Comment #198719 by Spinoza on June 24, 2008 at 11:50 am

How about let's not 'marry off' anyone anymore, please?

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33. Comment #198721 by advocatus_diaboli on June 24, 2008 at 11:54 am

How about let's not 'marry off' anyone anymore, please?

I agree and will add to it that we should open up marriage to any arrangement of "consenting adults" to allow for same sex marriage, polygamy, etc.

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34. Comment #198723 by black wolf on June 24, 2008 at 11:57 am

We evidently need more (government subsidized) faith schools, so that the kids, especially the girls, can learn about their precious traditions as early as possible. Our morals will decay if we won't endorse pedophilia, and without it we will find no meaning in life.

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35. Comment #198724 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 24, 2008 at 11:58 am

No, Thoughtsoncommontoad I will not 'change the record'. We anti-Jihadists have tolerated this crap for far too long. Remember this little comment of yours?

The only corners that criticise Islam are the very right-wing often racist vile xenophobes.

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36. Comment #198726 by phil rimmer on June 24, 2008 at 11:59 am

I made a BIG mistake. I argued that we needed to confront Islam from a purely political angle. That this would "legitimize" the discussion and get it onto the airwaves and passed those too squeamish to condemn a whole religion.

I clearly should have said political and moral. This is monstrous in the EXTREME. The paedophilia is deeply sick, but the callous attitude to the feelings of other human beings (women) leaves me speechless.....

I do so not want to de-humanize these MEN. Thats what you do when you feel the urge to fight them, I'm told. I so do not want to de-humanize them...

But what if they do all the work for you?

(I do understand it may be a small minority of Muslim men. But you others.....be fucking outraged!)

EDIT Fanusi- don't say it OK?

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37. Comment #198728 by black wolf on June 24, 2008 at 12:01 pm

Wasn't it also Saudi Arabia where men can marry for one night to circumvent the ban on prostitution? So theoretically they could easily have child brothels without any legal problems. How about we deport all our pedophiles to SA. It's a win-win (except for Saudi girls of course, but they're supposed to shut up anyway).
Anyone else feel like no level of cynicism can top the barbarity of that culture?

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38. Comment #198730 by Sciros on June 24, 2008 at 12:05 pm

(EDIT: this was in response to advocatus's post... I was slow typing...)
Meh, I think then at some point the social tradition of marriage as everyone knows it will become so freeform that something else will replace it as terminology for the particular "man and woman union" version, even if simply "traditional marriage."

I think certain arrangements other than traditional marriage should have equal legal standing when it comes to financial benefits, hospital visits, and the other 'perks' that marriage currently provides. I'm not sure why the word is so important to appropriate otherwise, though. It doesn't quite have the same meaning when, if asked "are you married?" you can say "yes, to three other dudes" and if it becomes the case that you *can* say that, marriage's original meaning will simply be preserved by another term.

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39. Comment #198731 by al-rawandi on June 24, 2008 at 12:06 pm

black wolf,

I have never heard of any such night in Saudi Arabia. Perhaps you are thinking of the Shi'a practice of Mutt'a (temporary marriage).

Muhammad Asad (Auth. The Road to Mecca) recounts how he was in Saudi Arabia and a family sent him a bride and she turned out to be twelve years old, and he sent her home. Of course Asad was born an Austrian Jew named Weisz, and only converted to Islam while working as a reporter in the Middle East, so perhaps he retained some of that European humanism.

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40. Comment #198734 by mordacious1 on June 24, 2008 at 12:10 pm

I have two friends who are originally from Pakistan and who were "married" at a young age. They both stayed at home with their parents until it was felt that she was "old enough", 17 or 18.

Now, several years later, she is a practicing MD, and he works at a mini mart here in the U.S. I like them both, but she has confided in me that she hates his guts. He thinks he is superior because he's the man and tells her how to do things... I told her to get a divorce, but she said she'd be treated horribly by her community. Me: With a community like that, who needs enemies. Oh, and besides the intelligence factor, in looks, she's a 10 and he's a 2 1/2. I don't see how this system can work.

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41. Comment #198735 by Corylus on June 24, 2008 at 12:13 pm

Fanusi

Let's see now, where are the feminists? I mean, surely, surely they will raise hell about this?

*crickets chirping*

They do exist Fanusi. The British MP Ann Cryer is one of them. You might find some of her articles on forced marriage interesting.

http://www.anncryer.com/articles.html

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42. Comment #198736 by mordacious1 on June 24, 2008 at 12:14 pm

Sciros

I saw something about the one night marriage on dateline or somewhere. I think is was in Saudi Arabia too, but I could be mistaken.

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43. Comment #198737 by Vaal on June 24, 2008 at 12:14 pm

4. Comment #198657 by ThoughtsonCommonToad

Muhammad really is quite vile, Jesus wasn't that bad. Not great but relative to a warmongering paedo.

Well, don't know if Jesus can get off the hook that easily, as according to the Gospels of Thomas, he was a murderer at the age of 5...

After that again he went through the village, and a child ran and dashed against his shoulder. And Jesus was provoked and said unto him: Thou shalt not finish thy course. And immediately he fell down and died. But certain when they saw what was done said: Whence was this young child born, for that every word of his is an accomplished work? And the parents of him that was dead came unto Joseph, and blamed him, saying: Thou that hast such a child canst not dwell with us in the village: or do thou teach him to bless and not to curse: for he slayeth our children.

And Joseph called the young child apart and admonished him, saying: Wherefore doest thou such things, that these suffer and hate us and persecute us? But Jesus said: I know that these thy words are not thine: nevertheless for thy sake I will hold my peace: but they shall bear their punishment. And straightway they that accused him were smitten with blindness. 2 And they that saw it were sore afraid and perplexed, and said concerning him that every word which he spake whether it were good or bad, was a deed, and became a marvel. And when they (he ?) saw that Jesus had so done, Joseph arose and took hold upon his ear and wrung it sore. 3 And the young child was wroth and said unto him: It sufficeth thee (or them) to seek and not to find, and verily thou hast done unwisely: knowest thou not that I am thine? vex me not.

I don't know if there was any description of his relationship with women in any document. I would have thought it quite strange in those days that he would have reached the age of 30 and not been married. Was there any indication he was gay?

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44. Comment #198739 by advocatus_diaboli on June 24, 2008 at 12:17 pm

Was there any indication he was gay?

You mean aside from spending most of his time with 12 dudes half of which were sailors?

Other Comments by advocatus_diaboli

45. Comment #198740 by Celandine on June 24, 2008 at 12:18 pm

TeraBrat,

There's no point in having sex with a girl before she's begun having menstrual periods - no reproduction possible. And age of menarche was significantly higher 1500 years ago, due largely to nutritional deficiencies. Age of marriage has also varied quite a lot in different societies; I do not know what the average age was in Arabian societies in Muhammad's lifetime, but for instance in much of medieval Europe marriage did not occur until well into the 20s for both men and women - hardly adolescence. All of which is as much to say that any justification of such an early marriage age is hogwash.

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46. Comment #198742 by Geodesic17 on June 24, 2008 at 12:21 pm

Only 1-year-old? Heck? Why not from the moment of birth? Or why not promise to have daughters to be married off when they are born? Why not marry a fetus? Why stop at 1 year?

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47. Comment #198745 by huzonfurst on June 24, 2008 at 12:30 pm

"The Prophet is our model." - Islam

"Moe is their leader." - Homer Simpson, expounding upon the Three Stooges.

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48. Comment #198746 by al-rawandi on June 24, 2008 at 12:30 pm

mordacious1,

It is a predominately Shi'a practice known as Mutta'. It is designed to stop "prostitution" when in fact it is precisely prostitution because there is a dowry involved, and it can be a contract as short as one day.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

49. Comment #198749 by funflower on June 24, 2008 at 12:35 pm

Why do we have to go to the internet to see this stuff? Where is Fox News when you need them?

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50. Comment #198756 by Fanusi Khiyal on June 24, 2008 at 12:51 pm

THanks, Corylus. I appreciate that. Yet she also says what I've been saying:

http://www.anncryer.com/articles/11.html

The same "leaders" who were dragged kicking and screaming into recognising the realities of forced marriages seek to label anyone who dares challenge the status quo as Islamophobic or accuse them of "demonising" the Asian community.

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