1. Comment #204582 by Manson on July 5, 2008 at 9:50 am

Somehow I don't think this is what Daniel Dennett had in mind. ;)

Other Comments by Manson

2. Comment #204583 by ThoughtsonCommonToad on July 5, 2008 at 9:52 am

Another parent, Karen Williams, said: "I am absolutely furious my daughter was made to take part in it and I don't find it acceptable. I haven't got a problem with them teaching my child other religions and a small amount of information doesn't do any harm.

So much information in so few words.

Other Comments by ThoughtsonCommonToad

3. Comment #204584 by hmcook87 on July 5, 2008 at 9:53 am

I would have liked to see the fuss (and the endless apologies) that would have been kicked up if children of muslim parents were forced to pray to god... There would be riots in the streets by now. I don't think Muslims would be impressed with "a practical demonstration of how god is worshipped". Its plainly unacceptable to attempt to force anyone to worship anything.

Other Comments by hmcook87

4. Comment #204585 by Plate Captain on July 5, 2008 at 9:54 am

I happen to live in alsager and know of the teacher who did this. Had a reputation for being a bit strange.

I'm actually quite surprised that two of the kids refused to do it. Normally at that age you just don't question this kind of thing.

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5. Comment #204588 by AllanW on July 5, 2008 at 9:59 am

I'm pleased to see the independence of thought exhibited by these two kids but on the other hand, the teacher seems to be either thoughtless in their appreciation of how a 'practical' such as this might be received by some of the participants or genuinely stupid enough to be surprised that it would cause a controversy.

Other Comments by AllanW

6. Comment #204590 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 10:00 am

I suggest we don't get too worked up yet.

from the article:

Cheshire County Council confirmed that parents had complained about the lesson, and said the circumstances of the incident were to be "thoroughly" looked into.

If this is just one teacher being nutty, and if there is a suitable response from the council, this could end up as a positive story.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

7. Comment #204593 by Chris Bell on July 5, 2008 at 10:06 am

It's my understanding that English schoolkids are often led in Christian prayers because there is no separation of church and state.

Seems like an excellent "teachable moment" to me.

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8. Comment #204595 by NekoFever on July 5, 2008 at 10:08 am

I remember learning about Islam in RE and the teacher asking for a volunteer to demonstrate how Muslims pray and turned it into a joke ("be careful what you tell your parents we did in class today when you're telling them about prostration"). Guess my teacher was being disrespectful as well ;)

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9. Comment #204596 by Apathy personified on July 5, 2008 at 10:19 am

I can't see where the teacher got the idea to make them pray to allah - how is that teaching them about islam? They should know that muslims pray to allah but how the hell does it help their education to actually do it themselves? In a science lesson the kids benefit from actually doing the experiment, but RE is different.
If they are doing about opus dei will the teacher make them whip themselves?

Other Comments by Apathy personified

10. Comment #204602 by Benocrates on July 5, 2008 at 10:47 am

This seems absolutely silly, have we (on this site) gone mad? It seems to me, from the first sentence down to the last, this was a practical exercise on how Muslims prey to their man in the sky. This does not seem, in any way, to be some forced worship of Allah.

Perhaps, if the teacher said their disrespect for not participating was directed at their characters Muhammad or Allah, then I'd be more suspicious. I think something of that effect is quoted in the article, but seems to be from parents who made their own assumptions. The parents that are "absolutely furious." Realistically, this looks more like Christian parents experiencing massive Islamophobia, and are worried their dogmatic nonsense will be superseded by another.

It seems as if we (the atheist community) are becoming hyper sensitive about any issue surrounding anything that could possibly be deference to a religion. I am usually right behind you in every step, I'll fight day and night to keep mandated prayer out of schools, but not prayer demonstrations directly linked to RE.

Think about it, maybe the act of Muslim prayer (head on the ground, etc) will be an illustrative point on how subservient and childish that religion is. Maybe not, but it's definitly not doing any harm. This kind of hysteria is exactly what gets people like Monique Davis to create and spew her bigotry.

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11. Comment #204603 by huzonfurst on July 5, 2008 at 10:47 am

Zara, I find your comment much too accomodating. If it turns into a positive thing it will be because what the teacher did is recognized to be as outrageous as it is.

By now I must freely admit to a strong anti-Islam bias, which is an eminently rational position to take based on its record. What would you do, wait until sharia is imposed on all of Britain "just to be sure" Islam really is that bad?

Same to you, Benocrates. Haven't you ever heard the expression "Give them an inch and they'll take a mile?"

Other Comments by huzonfurst

12. Comment #204608 by NineBerry on July 5, 2008 at 11:05 am

@huzonfurst

Read the article again: The teacher is no muslim. The prayer was meant as a demonstration.

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13. Comment #204609 by Benocrates on July 5, 2008 at 11:05 am

huzonfurst, I would definitly label that as committing the slippery slope fallacy. You're saying a practical demonstration of a religious act, on par with kneeling to prey to a Christian conception of god, will lead to an Islamic takeover of British politics? Remember, this appears to be an educational practice in direct connection with Islamic RE.

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14. Comment #204617 by bollocks on July 5, 2008 at 11:25 am

For crying out loud Zara

When are you going to stop being a

Drippy
Soft left
Let's wait and see
Nothing is simple
Not enough scientific evidence
Humanity can get along
It can't happen here

Pedant

Other Comments by bollocks

15. Comment #204618 by Logicel on July 5, 2008 at 11:29 am

Benocrates, you think it's appropriate that the kids got punished?

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16. Comment #204619 by Benocrates on July 5, 2008 at 11:30 am

For crying out loud bollocks

When are you going to stop being a

stoic
impregnably hard right
Let's act irrationally
everything is simple
Fuck scientific evidence
Humanity can never get along
It will happen everywhere

irrational atheist fundie

I can be insulting without knowing anything about you too! :)

Other Comments by Benocrates

17. Comment #204620 by D'Arcy on July 5, 2008 at 11:31 am

Some of the richest footballers in the world live in Cheshire. They need protection. If Cheshire County Council is really going to thoroughly investigate the complaints, can I suggest they call in the Dundee Police?
http://richarddawkins.net/article,2806,Muslims-outraged-at-police-advert-featuring-cute-puppy-sitting-in-policemans-hat,Daily-Mail

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18. Comment #204621 by Ian on July 5, 2008 at 11:32 am

I can't honestly see how anyone is going to be happy about this, especially Moslems, who could regard this as a debasement of worship.

Kudos to the young lads, education is supposed to be about empowerment, not submission.

Other Comments by Ian

19. Comment #204624 by the great teapot on July 5, 2008 at 11:40 am

i was forced to pray to allah once a week in my school in the north east of England twenty five years ago. Pleased to see nothing has changed.
(btw god=allah=god)
It was tacitly assumed back then , as now, a childs disobedience is without question punishable.

Other Comments by the great teapot

20. Comment #204627 by thewhitepearl on July 5, 2008 at 11:48 am

I don't think this article is telling the complete story..I have a feeling that there is more to this.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

21. Comment #204628 by huzonfurst on July 5, 2008 at 11:49 am

Benocrates, I am saying that letting anything that smacks of religious coercion slide is the equivalent of pounding nails into our own coffins. This doesn't mean I think any one incident will lead to another Dark Age, but it does mean that I prefer to err on the side of caution, exposing every possible threat to the light of day and *not* letting it pass!

"All that's needed for evil to triumph is for good men (*and* women, as in Life of Brian) to do nothing" and all that.

Other Comments by huzonfurst

22. Comment #204629 by Benocrates on July 5, 2008 at 11:49 am

logicel, it seems from the article that these children were probably refusing to participate in a disruptive way. I can't be sure, and if it were otherwise (perhaps in opposition to some religious freedom in a reasonable way), I would think differently.

However, based on the assumption it was disruptive to an honest RE lesson, they should face the same punishment as any student disruptor.

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23. Comment #204630 by the great teapot on July 5, 2008 at 11:49 am

National service seems the only reasonable answer to me.
We of course would have to invade a few more countries to send them to to be killed in.
But it will keep them off Britains got talent and thats got to be worth it.

That would finally end the ....
"you guys are a tremendous example to the youf of today, pretending to be hoodies in Milton keynes is a far greater example to set than actually fucking learning something usefull"
comments once and for all.

Other Comments by the great teapot

24. Comment #204631 by Benocrates on July 5, 2008 at 11:53 am

huzonfurst, would you consider testing on the content of the Christian Lords prayer for RE purposes to be an affront to British secular politics?

Other Comments by Benocrates

25. Comment #204635 by Nairb on July 5, 2008 at 12:14 pm

This is great. :)

Children are being educated on how ridiculous religions are. Hopefully it will inspire their skepticism about what religious instruction they get at home and how stupid some adults can be.

I hope this becomes common practice though its probaly too much to hopê for given the fuss about it.

Steve Zara as usual you are spot on.
Bollocks what a good name!

Other Comments by Nairb

26. Comment #204645 by alexmzk on July 5, 2008 at 12:35 pm

hey, on more than one occasion, my classmates and i were made to pray to jesus when i was at school.

Other Comments by alexmzk

27. Comment #204648 by Dr Doctor on July 5, 2008 at 12:36 pm

If the basis of this story is true, that the children were given detention for refusing to take part in a "prayer demonstration" (regardless of whether it was detention for being disrespectful), then I think they have every right.

Compelling children to take part in acts of religious ritual is not good education, and is nothing that cannot be illustrated with books, videos or practical demonstration.

Getting the child to do it steps over a line. It does not convey any lesson, or useful information beyond what it is like to kneel and bend your back in a certain direction.

Heady stuff.

I would back any child, mine or others, that refused to take part in something on a point of principle, especially over such a worthless "demonstration", given they can articulate why in a rational way.

If the reason given for detention is true, then that is a disgrace and it is appalling that one or two members of this site are being mealy-mouthed about the issue.

If the reason was something else, like disruption, rudeness etc then that is a different point entirely.

I'm certain there is more to the story, but to use it as a stick to beat those that are showing "hypersensitivity" seems misplaced. There are other stories for whom that reaction has been merited more in the past which came and went without comment.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

28. Comment #204650 by Steve Zara on July 5, 2008 at 12:40 pm

Comment #204617 by bollocks

For crying out loud Zara

When are you going to stop being a

Drippy
Soft left
Let's wait and see
Nothing is simple
Not enough scientific evidence
Humanity can get along
It can't happen here

Pedant

Never, I hope.

I will argue with passion against ideas, but I have faith. I have faith in people. Almost all people are decent, and compassionate, and reasonable, given a chance. The problem with religion is that it prevents criticism of those who aren't, and allows them a safe space to develop and propogate ideas.

Most people who identify as Christian are decent, so are most people who identify as Muslim.

Most people sign up to traditions and ideologies without bothering to investigate the details. A typical muslim may tick a box on a questionnaire that asks about Sharia law without having much idea what Sharia law is. They tick the box out of solidarity for a community.

This is why education is important - so people realise the implications of what they are signing up to in terms of traditions and religious beliefs.

Until that has been achieved, we should not condemn a whole group because of every report of what silly individuals do.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

29. Comment #204651 by Dinah on July 5, 2008 at 12:46 pm

I'll probably be accused of having a sense of humour crisis, but if I were a parent and my children were ordered to pray to Allah and then punished for being 'disrespecful' to the Prophet if they refused, I'd be hopping mad about it too. It doesn't matter what the motivations of the teacher were. Even if he or she was sending the whole thing up, the children wouldn't realise that. To me, it's out of order, unacceptable, and amounts to child abuse. I have no idea whether the children who refused to take part did so just to be 'naughty' or because they felt what they were being asked to do was wrong, but it was fortunate they did refuse, or the matter might not have brought to the attention of the authorities.

Other Comments by Dinah

30. Comment #204652 by Dr Doctor on July 5, 2008 at 12:49 pm

I also don't think it is needful to condemn an entire group on the actions of a single individual within it.

I think that is setting your sights far too low.

Use the best examples to condemn the entire field of religion, religions that run schools and religious privilege.

Remove their tax breaks, their right to intervene in school education, the privileges and make the playing field level and you know, maybe the world would end up being a better place. It certainly wouldn't make it worse.

Oi, teacher, leave those kids alone.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

31. Comment #204654 by SPS on July 5, 2008 at 12:53 pm

Comment #204650 by Steve Zara

Well said, Steve.

Other Comments by SPS

32. Comment #204655 by Benocrates on July 5, 2008 at 12:54 pm

Doc, I think this debate comes down to the key question: "Is it necessary/acceptable to have children perform the physical action of any particular religious ritual, in the context of religious education."

It appears that we can view this question two ways, hinged on the words necessary and acceptable. If taken from the perspective of acceptable, I would argue that the contextual practice (immediately following a lesson on why the ritual is performed) does not impinge on the religious freedoms of students.

My reason for this, is the inclusive nature of other lessons and rituals the students would be exposed to for other religions. This is under the assumption that Islam is not the only religion covered in that class.

If the argument for necessity is a bit harder to defend, but I think I can. To argue that videos, demonstrations, lectures on a topic can provide sufficient instruction, to me, is insufficient. I will agree, that not all lessons should be followed by the practical activity of it, however I believe a corollary can be drawn to the science classroom.

I am in no way advocating the equality of the two disciplines (theology and science), nor am I claiming some kind of NOMA seperation. What I am suggesting, is the act of participating in limited religious ritual may provide a more tangible example of the nonsense that is religious ritual, as science experiments show the usefulness that is science.

To me, the argument that these rituals should be banned legitimizes the rituals themselves. To say our children should not be forced to perform a simple Allah worshiping ritual, almost implies that there is something that can be worshiped that differs from a preferred icon. If not this argument, it at least appears to be giving a greater amount of significance to a truly insignificant act.

Not to mention the very limited amount of time it takes to perform that Islamic ritual, I think this symbolic debate is, in essence, overreaction.

Other Comments by Benocrates

33. Comment #204656 by Dinah on July 5, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Re Comment 204585

I happen to live in alsager and know of the teacher who did this. Had a reputation for being a bit strange.

Yes, so often teachers of RE ARE strange. Mine certainly were. I remember one sweet old dear solemnly telling the class that everyone on earth had their own personal Guardian Angel who watched over them and protected them throughout their lives. Considering the way my life had gone up to that point, I decided my GA must have either fallen off its perch, or taken a very long holiday. Is RE the 'graveyard' slot which they give to teachers on the verge of a nervous breakdown, or does the subject just attract strange people?

Other Comments by Dinah

34. Comment #204658 by the great teapot on July 5, 2008 at 12:59 pm

Bollocks to comparative religion, Religion has no more place in school than astrology.
I am fed up with this pandering to horseshite.
End it now. It may be of remote interest but it is not essential to education. Ditch the crap.
Nobody taught me astrology at school and that is culturally important.
Religion is a waste of tax payers money.

Other Comments by the great teapot

35. Comment #204660 by Dr Doctor on July 5, 2008 at 1:04 pm

"I am in no way advocating the equality of the two disciplines (theology and science), nor am I claiming some kind of NOMA seperation. What I am suggesting, is the act of participating in limited religious ritual may provide a more tangible example of the nonsense that is religious ritual, as science experiments show the usefulness that is science."

The main purpose of a practical science lesson is to make something that can be abstract and difficult to visualise for the student real and actual.

"To me, the argument that these rituals should be banned legitimizes the rituals themselves."

But you don't say why.

"To say our children should not be forced to perform a simple Allah worshiping ritual, almost implies that there is something that can be worshiped that differs from a preferred icon."

That makes no sense to me as a sentence. Could you retry, you leave me very confused here.



"If not this argument, it at least appears to be giving a greater amount of significance to a truly insignificant act."

If the "act" has no meaning, then why perform it? Why force children to perform it? What value can it bring to their education?

It is a needless waste of time, and as I said, IF the reason for discipline was that this was disrespectful to a facet of Islam, then it undermines entirely the basis of your argument that the act has no meaning therefore why not perform it. It clearly has a meaning to the teacher, and children are not stupid. Children of all ages sense the power games played by the adult.

Oh well, it only takes a minute, why not do it?

Not a strong argument. You and I draw lines in different places, and teachers act in loco-parentis and need to be careful they do not overstep the boundaries. This is the case whether it is the participation of a child in a religious act.

Would you, for example, like it if your child was asked to pull down the lever on a demonstration electric chair in a "right wing crime and punishment" part of a social studies lesson?

Or perhaps a simulated act of rape in a crime lesson.

Silly examples no doubt, but teachers are trained to know what is appropriate, and what is not and this act of ritual is a de-facto submission to an ideology that many parents would see as over the line and so would many teachers.

A responsible teacher would make the exercise purely voluntary.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

36. Comment #204661 by OhioLen on July 5, 2008 at 1:04 pm

" Comment #204627 by thewhitepearl on July 5, 2008 at 11:48 am
I don't think this article is telling the complete story..I have a feeling that there is more to this."

Ding ding ding...we have a winner!

On reading it carefully, there is not enough information to derive any conclusions. Read one way, it should piss off Christians afraid of exo-indoctrination. Read another way, it should piss off atheists outraged at the fuss over a mere demonstration, in a class meant to promote understanding. The truth almost certainly lies somewhere in the middle.

Oh, and NineBerry: where does that article provide any information at all about the teacher's religion?

Other Comments by OhioLen

37. Comment #204662 by julianfkirby on July 5, 2008 at 1:06 pm

Interestingly enough, the students refusal was probably the most respectful thing they could have done in that situation. I would argue that it is disrespectful fake praying to a god you don't believe in. Punishing these students is disrespectful to them and to the lesson they were supposed to be learning, respect for others.

Other Comments by julianfkirby

38. Comment #204663 by Dr Doctor on July 5, 2008 at 1:11 pm

I meant to add that I see it as no different from the petty sadism of your average PE teacher. The religion of the teacher is irrelevant in this example, what is important as to whether this consititutes taking religious "education" too far and whether the teacher is in fact a bully.

If, again, the story is true in essence or details.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

39. Comment #204665 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 5, 2008 at 1:16 pm

Over on the Shariah thread many said that this was only private, like the Jewish courts, and there was no way it would spread, and had nothing to do with surrender, and it was never going to come into conflict with common law.

Well, here's a reason not to believe that. And I should like people to own up to it now. People like me were right - and it gives me no pleasure, none, to say that.

But I doubt that any acknowledgements will be forthcoming. For example, here's thewhitepearl's response:

I don't think this article is telling the complete story..I have a feeling that there is more to this.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

40. Comment #204667 by bugaboo on July 5, 2008 at 1:17 pm

Comment #204658 by the great teapot
Dont you think that its absolutley amazing that humans are " religous"? I do, and think its a fascinating area for study and that includes in schools.

Other Comments by bugaboo

41. Comment #204669 by the great teapot on July 5, 2008 at 1:21 pm

It is fascinating but only as an hobby.
Children have far more important things to learn.

Other Comments by the great teapot

42. Comment #204670 by the great teapot on July 5, 2008 at 1:24 pm

I find middlesbrough fc fascinating but I am only 80 percent sure its history should be compulsory in all uk shools.

Other Comments by the great teapot

43. Comment #204673 by TIKI AL on July 5, 2008 at 1:33 pm

Too bad young Catholic students didn't question the priest's "pull down your pants and bend over for prayer" directive.

Other Comments by TIKI AL

44. Comment #204674 by bugaboo on July 5, 2008 at 1:34 pm

23. Comment #204630 by the great teapot
Just spotted this gem

National service seems the only reasonable answer to me.

Yeah, heard it.

Arsehole

Other Comments by bugaboo

45. Comment #204676 by the great teapot on July 5, 2008 at 1:37 pm

bugaboo
And what were the following sentences after those you have quoted?

Other Comments by the great teapot

46. Comment #204678 by the great teapot on July 5, 2008 at 1:50 pm

Bugaboo,
I am still waiting.

Other Comments by the great teapot

47. Comment #204680 by bugaboo on July 5, 2008 at 1:51 pm

Teapot
Seems maybe I got the wrong end of the stick and so I apologise.

Its past my bedtime.

Other Comments by bugaboo

48. Comment #204681 by the great teapot on July 5, 2008 at 1:52 pm

Anytime you would like to apologise will be ok with me.
Forget the above( you just have) .
Bugaboo, I am always saying shit I regret when I am tired, trouble is this site is so addictive I am always here both tired and drunk.
No problem

Other Comments by the great teapot

49. Comment #204682 by clearthinker on July 5, 2008 at 1:59 pm

The bottom line is that no child should be forced to pray, or to any religious act, to a a god they either do not believe in. By definition such a forced act cannot be worship and is insulting to both the believers and those compelled to do something they do not believe in.

Even as a 'demonstration' it is demeaning and insulting. The children were quite right.

Other Comments by clearthinker

50. Comment #204685 by the great teapot on July 5, 2008 at 2:03 pm

clearthinker,
I can not fault that.

Other Comments by the great teapot