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Churches' secret talks to stop gay surge
by SMH
Thanks to Gordon Wong for the link.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/churches-secret-talks-to-stop-gay-surge/2008/07/07/1215282720664.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Churches' secret talks to stop gay surge
The Church of England has refused to deny that its most senior bishops held secret discussions with their Vatican counterparts this weekend in an historic union to topple the controversial Anglican push to admit gay unions and the ordination of women bishops.
In an unprecedented turn of events, a handful of Pope Benedict XVI's most trusted advisers are believed to have met senior Anglican Bishops in York over the weekend to build closer inter-church ties - and to stymie the liberalisation of significant traditions.
The meetings, reported by Anglican websites and London's Telegraph, suggest that the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, was not informed of the talks.
This is seen as a major blow to his authority and his concerted drive to try to prevent the imminent historical schism in the Church of England between conservative Bishops and their liberal arch enemies.
The secret talks, held just days before Pope Benedict leaves Rome for Australia for World Youth Day, highlights the dramatic choices faced by both churches in an increasingly secular and liberal western environment.
The discussions, described as highly confidential, involved a group of the most conservative Anglican bishops who vented their fury at the increasingly liberal direction that the Church of England is taking. Their anxieties were aired with members of the conservative Catholic Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - once the province of Pope Ratzinger - and historically the successor to the medieval Inquisitions which were charged with enforcing church teachings and doctrine.
The Telegraph's religious roundsman wrote that the names of the bishops involved in the secret talks were known to the newspaper - but that all had asked for anonymity because of the sensitive and potentially explosive nature of their subject.
The revelations also come just a day before the vote of the General Synod - the Church's governing arm - which will make a decision on whether women should be allowed to become bishops.
Bitter opponents have been demanding concessions and more than 500 members of the clergy have already warned Dr Williams that they will consider abandoning the Church unless havens within the Church free of women bishops are created for them.
Three diocesan bishops have written to the archbishop in support of the threat while another two said they are prepared to jettison the Church altogether. The letter from the Bishops of Chichester, Blackburn and Europe reportedly argue that traditionalist clergy will be incapable of maintaining an "honoured place" in the Church without such legislation.
"Clearly the ordination of women as bishops would divide the Church of England even more fundamentally than the ordination of women as priests," the letter stated.
"This issue is one which touches all members of the Church of England and not just those with synodical voting rights. In the light of this we are convinced that some form of separate identities will be required to enable the holders of mutually incompatible convictions about the faith and order of the Church to remain in as high a degree of continuing fellowship as possible." it demanded.
But while the letter signals deep anxiety within the senior echelons of the Church, meetings with the Vatican will be more worrying for Dr Williams with one anonymous bishop quoted by the Telegraph stating that the Church of England was becoming more and more like the American Church: "Those of us who hold to traditional orthodoxy are very concerned about the direction it seems to be moving in."
The Anglican s have been bitching about homosexuality ever since the United States arm decided to appoint Gene Robinson as the first openly gay bishop and allowed services for same-sex unions. The Conservative arm fear gay blessing services are already being conducted in the UK and the Sunday Telegraph wrote a story last month about a "wedding" ceremony held for two gay priests.
Now that the Anglicans plan to allow women bishops, there is a fear that clergy will defect to the Vatican and Rome: "The internal pressure of the Anglican communion has pushed us apart and we're committed to greater unity with Rome. There can be no future for Christianity in Europe without Rome." a bishop is reported to have stated anonymously.
Pope Benedict's desire to embrace conservative Anglicans was first signalled in 2003 when he was a Cardinal and sent a message to conservative clergy in Texas who had met to protest Bishop Robinson's election.
The Pope and Dr Williams also enjoy a strong relationship, which they are keen to maintain.
However, the Telegraph reported that a former aide to Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, Roman Catholic Church head in England and Wales, who insisted that talks with the Anglican bishops had only started because of tensions over the Anglican communion: "It is obvious things are starting to fall apart and Rome wants to be able to help if it can," he said.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/churches-secret-talks-to-stop-gay-surge/2008/07/07/1215282720664.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1
Churches' secret talks to stop gay surge
The Church of England has refused to deny that its most senior bishops held secret discussions with their Vatican counterparts this weekend in an historic union to topple the controversial Anglican push to admit gay unions and the ordination of women bishops.
In an unprecedented turn of events, a handful of Pope Benedict XVI's most trusted advisers are believed to have met senior Anglican Bishops in York over the weekend to build closer inter-church ties - and to stymie the liberalisation of significant traditions.
The meetings, reported by Anglican websites and London's Telegraph, suggest that the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, was not informed of the talks.
This is seen as a major blow to his authority and his concerted drive to try to prevent the imminent historical schism in the Church of England between conservative Bishops and their liberal arch enemies.
The secret talks, held just days before Pope Benedict leaves Rome for Australia for World Youth Day, highlights the dramatic choices faced by both churches in an increasingly secular and liberal western environment.
The discussions, described as highly confidential, involved a group of the most conservative Anglican bishops who vented their fury at the increasingly liberal direction that the Church of England is taking. Their anxieties were aired with members of the conservative Catholic Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith - once the province of Pope Ratzinger - and historically the successor to the medieval Inquisitions which were charged with enforcing church teachings and doctrine.
The Telegraph's religious roundsman wrote that the names of the bishops involved in the secret talks were known to the newspaper - but that all had asked for anonymity because of the sensitive and potentially explosive nature of their subject.
The revelations also come just a day before the vote of the General Synod - the Church's governing arm - which will make a decision on whether women should be allowed to become bishops.
Bitter opponents have been demanding concessions and more than 500 members of the clergy have already warned Dr Williams that they will consider abandoning the Church unless havens within the Church free of women bishops are created for them.
Three diocesan bishops have written to the archbishop in support of the threat while another two said they are prepared to jettison the Church altogether. The letter from the Bishops of Chichester, Blackburn and Europe reportedly argue that traditionalist clergy will be incapable of maintaining an "honoured place" in the Church without such legislation.
"Clearly the ordination of women as bishops would divide the Church of England even more fundamentally than the ordination of women as priests," the letter stated.
"This issue is one which touches all members of the Church of England and not just those with synodical voting rights. In the light of this we are convinced that some form of separate identities will be required to enable the holders of mutually incompatible convictions about the faith and order of the Church to remain in as high a degree of continuing fellowship as possible." it demanded.
But while the letter signals deep anxiety within the senior echelons of the Church, meetings with the Vatican will be more worrying for Dr Williams with one anonymous bishop quoted by the Telegraph stating that the Church of England was becoming more and more like the American Church: "Those of us who hold to traditional orthodoxy are very concerned about the direction it seems to be moving in."
The Anglican s have been bitching about homosexuality ever since the United States arm decided to appoint Gene Robinson as the first openly gay bishop and allowed services for same-sex unions. The Conservative arm fear gay blessing services are already being conducted in the UK and the Sunday Telegraph wrote a story last month about a "wedding" ceremony held for two gay priests.
Now that the Anglicans plan to allow women bishops, there is a fear that clergy will defect to the Vatican and Rome: "The internal pressure of the Anglican communion has pushed us apart and we're committed to greater unity with Rome. There can be no future for Christianity in Europe without Rome." a bishop is reported to have stated anonymously.
Pope Benedict's desire to embrace conservative Anglicans was first signalled in 2003 when he was a Cardinal and sent a message to conservative clergy in Texas who had met to protest Bishop Robinson's election.
The Pope and Dr Williams also enjoy a strong relationship, which they are keen to maintain.
However, the Telegraph reported that a former aide to Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, Roman Catholic Church head in England and Wales, who insisted that talks with the Anglican bishops had only started because of tensions over the Anglican communion: "It is obvious things are starting to fall apart and Rome wants to be able to help if it can," he said.
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Posted: Monday, July 7, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 101 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #205359 by Dinah on July 7, 2008 at 7:31 am
Apparently one group opposed to the ordination of women as Bishops is called 'Forward in Faith.' Shouldn't that be 'Backwards in Bigotry?' Mind you, I am unable to understand why anyone, male or female, would voluntarily choose to dress up like a Pantomime Dame complete with Silly Hat and think that this ridiculous garb somehow renders them special to their Sky Fairy.Other Comments by Dinah
3. Comment #205360 by petermun on July 7, 2008 at 7:33 am
The underhand behaviour of senior clerics still amazes me - but why, for they are paid well for their primary function, to deceive.Other Comments by petermun
5. Comment #205363 by Steve Zara on July 7, 2008 at 7:35 am
"Clearly the ordination of women as bishops would divide the Church of England even more fundamentally than the ordination of women as priests," the letter stated.
How repulsive. The ordination of women priests was about whether or not women had a tole in the church. The ordination of women as bishops is surely about whether or not women are fundamentally inferior.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
6. Comment #205364 by hungarianelephant on July 7, 2008 at 7:36 am
However, the Telegraph reported that a former aide to Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor, Roman Catholic Church head in England and Wales, who insisted that talks with the Anglican bishops had only started because of tensions over the Anglican communion: "It is obvious things are starting to fall apart and Rome wants to be able to help if it can," he said.
I wonder if he realises what he's just said.
What they couldn't achieve with Spanish galleons ...
Other Comments by hungarianelephant
7. Comment #205369 by Bonzai on July 7, 2008 at 7:42 am
This is interesting. Women cannot be ordained because Jesus was gay and preferred to hanged out with guys with hairy chests. They don't approve of same sex marriage because Jesus didn't marry any of his buddies but preferred 12! Oh, I get it,Other Comments by Bonzai
8. Comment #205370 by robotaholic on July 7, 2008 at 7:42 am
That'd be cool if churches fell apart because of gay ppl. yay Other Comments by robotaholic
9. Comment #205374 by Cartomancer on July 7, 2008 at 7:48 am
Would there actually be any anglican clergy left if you took out all the women and gays, apart from Rowan Williams, John Sentamu and their pet tortoise Anselm?
Still, I like the sound of this "gay surge". I wonder if they'll be having one anywhere near me in the future? Can we invite the current Wimbledon champion to the next one? Pleeease!
Other Comments by Cartomancer
10. Comment #205375 by Vaal on July 7, 2008 at 7:52 am
And if they found another stone tablet saying that Jesus was gay? Would that mean that Priest's could only be gay? Mind you, with Darth Ratzinger wearing pravda shoes, and maybe stockings underneath, perhaps he actually is? Other Comments by Vaal
11. Comment #205377 by Cartomancer on July 7, 2008 at 7:54 am
Vaal - I am reliably informed by an ex member of the Israeli intelligence services that Old Man Ratty is indeed as gay as can be, and has been sleeping with a fellow priest for over thirty years.
Hardly surprising. Hypocrisy is the national sport of the Vatican.
Other Comments by Cartomancer
12. Comment #205379 by liberalartist on July 7, 2008 at 7:56 am
"There can be no future for Christianity in Europe without Rome."
well, so much for that Reformation. Guess its time everyone went back to the fold because this "liberal" thing has obviously gotten out of control. I mean really, women as priests and bishops?!
Other Comments by liberalartist
13. Comment #205381 by alfonso on July 7, 2008 at 7:58 am
"Now that the Anglicans plan to allow women bishops, there is a fear that clergy will defect to the Vatican and Rome"Only with religion would people voluntarily choose to cut their own rights when freedoms are given.
In this case this is even worse, they'd risk their eternal souls (they believe they have them) to change religion just because their leaders finally realize/accept that women are actually equal and decide to act upon it.
They are just a bunch of despicable bigots, they should have no power, and certainly no funding from any democratic state.
Other Comments by alfonso
14. Comment #205382 by DavidSJA on July 7, 2008 at 7:58 am
We hommers will be the downfall of organised religion yet! Huzzah \o/Other Comments by DavidSJA
15. Comment #205389 by Jack Rawlinson on July 7, 2008 at 8:13 am
"Gay Surge" is the name of my new band. Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson
16. Comment #205390 by Gregg Townsend on July 7, 2008 at 8:15 am
Jack Rawlinson,
Hopefully you have a song titled 'Shock and Awe'.
Other Comments by Gregg Townsend
17. Comment #205392 by Godfree Gordon on July 7, 2008 at 8:17 am
United they stand
Divided they fall
Bring on the schism
Other Comments by Godfree Gordon
18. Comment #205394 by Peacebeuponme on July 7, 2008 at 8:18 am
The writer must have patted himself on the back with that headline.A picture of a naked Ann Widdecome would be enough to stop the gay surge I would have thought.
Other Comments by Peacebeuponme
19. Comment #205398 by Apathy personified on July 7, 2008 at 8:21 am
The Anglican s have been bitching about homosexualityI think that says it all, does it not?
What do they expect to happen if gays or women (or heaven forbid - a gay woman) get to wear special bishop hats?
suggest that the Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr Rowan Williams, was not informed of the talksWell, the cat's out the basket now, let the wrath of rowan be unleashed - yeah, a long winded rebuttal to the telegraph
Edit: I thought a 'gay surge' was a meteorological term, should we avoid any unnecessary journeys while this occurs?
Other Comments by Apathy personified
20. Comment #205399 by BicycleRepairMan on July 7, 2008 at 8:23 am
First they ingore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win, then you get to laugh at them. Ignorantly cowardly, superstitious bunch of child-abusing loonies, every last one of them
Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan
21. Comment #205403 by irate_atheist on July 7, 2008 at 8:32 am
Splitters!!
*-> coat
Other Comments by irate_atheist
22. Comment #205404 by nickthelight on July 7, 2008 at 8:34 am
..."actually Doogle only 5% of Catholic priests have ever been accused of serious sexual abuse and there are 200 million priests so that's only ten million"
Father Ted.
Other Comments by nickthelight
23. Comment #205405 by hoops mccann on July 7, 2008 at 8:35 am
What delicious irony! When I was growing up(in the U.S.), Episcopalians, as the elite of Protestent sects (or at least the most affluent), generally disparaged Catholics as superstitious and uneducated blue collar grunts who were created to dust their furniture and work in their factories. To see the most reactionary of them going begging to the Pope is just hilarious. This is truly rich. Other Comments by hoops mccann
24. Comment #205406 by DamnDirtyApe on July 7, 2008 at 8:41 am
It's good to hear that the church is willing to have debates on the key issues - behind close doors where no one can hear what they really think.
And 'surge'? What, are they going to start to ship out gay people to Iraq or something?
.. I'm just trying to inject a little humour and irreverence into - milenia of hate and division.
Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
25. Comment #205409 by Rachel Holmes on July 7, 2008 at 8:44 am
Is this gay surge the boy equivalent of this?http://www.biva.co.uk/images/ad_lesbosurge_lge.gif
Other Comments by Rachel Holmes
26. Comment #205413 by eclampusvitus on July 7, 2008 at 8:49 am
Stories like this almost make me wish there was a Jesus looking down on us. He'd smite those dress-wearing, cannibal bigots between the eyes with a fish. And a couple loaves, what the hell. He's got lots.Is this anything but a prime example of the churches' hypocrisy?
ECV
Other Comments by eclampusvitus
27. Comment #205415 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 8:50 am
I can't stop myself seeing this through the lens of 'The Godfather III' with Rowan Williams as [somehow!] Michael Corleone, trying to finally make the family legit, whilst the machiavellian Don Luchese aka Papa Benny machinates behind the scene subverting it for his own ends.
Terry Waite as Andy Garcia?
Cartomancer, if I ever sniggered about 'kissing the Papal ring' before, I'll shudder now!
Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning
28. Comment #205420 by Vaal on July 7, 2008 at 8:57 am
11. Comment #205377 by Cartomancer Old Man Ratty is indeed as gay as can be, and has been sleeping with a fellow priest for over thirty years
Come on Cartomancer, you can't get away with that. Who is the other priest? Father Jack? :)
Other Comments by Vaal
29. Comment #205423 by Steve Zara on July 7, 2008 at 9:01 am
I wonder what a "surge" is? Perhaps it is the collective noun for a group of gay men at a concert and how they react when Take That come on stage...Does that date me, or what?
Other Comments by Steve Zara
30. Comment #205425 by VanYoungman on July 7, 2008 at 9:02 am
Wait till they try to stir into this mess the Episcpalian Church of the United States. Hah! Other Comments by VanYoungman
31. Comment #205451 by gcdavis on July 7, 2008 at 9:35 am
You beat me to it Steve Zara Other Comments by gcdavis
32. Comment #205455 by gcdavis on July 7, 2008 at 9:45 am
It is a generally held opinion that many clergy are gay, by allowing women into the priesthood they apparently think that they will stem the "tide" Obviously no one has told them about lesbians. Maybe the ordination of vegetables is the solution to their problem. Other Comments by gcdavis
33. Comment #205458 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 9:48 am
Comment #205455 by gcdavis
''Maybe the ordination of vegetables is the solution to their problem.''
Wasn't it their original aim?
Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning
34. Comment #205466 by rod-the-farmer on July 7, 2008 at 10:07 am
Is it just me, or am I wrong in thinking whatever was said at this secret conference would be legally construed as 'hate speech'. If a corporation met secretly to discuss a restriction of roles / positions such that women and gay MEN were not allowed, they could be sued in most western countries. For substantial damages too, I think. So howcum a tax-exempt organisation can (apparently) get away with it ? And once again I point to the lack of any discrimination against gay women. Yet another proof that the Abrahamic religions were developed by sexually abnormal MEN. Other Comments by rod-the-farmer
35. Comment #205467 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 10:08 am
Comment #205466 by rod-the-farmer
In a nutshell
Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning
36. Comment #205469 by SteveN on July 7, 2008 at 10:18 am
To rod-the-farmer (#34):I have been thinking the same thing over the last few days. Why is it that the CofE is not taken to court for blatant discrimination against women and gays? These are paid positions, after all, not just membership to some men's club, and the church is nothing more than a huge industry. Once again, religion gets a free pass to flount commonly-held and acknowledged standards (and laws) of basic ethics and morality.
Other Comments by SteveN
37. Comment #205473 by Vinelectric on July 7, 2008 at 10:27 am
Well,
I've always joked that the condemnation of homosexuality in "revealed" texts is so out of touch with human nature it's evidence that the origin of these books must be "alien" to the world we live in!
Other Comments by Vinelectric
38. Comment #205475 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 10:35 am
Comment #205469 by SteveN
I suspect that there are those in the establishment quite willing to do this but are afraid of the precedent. If you do it, quite reasonably, to the CofE that means you have to apply the same rigour to Islamic organisations if you are not to be called hypocrit. The flip-side is that apologists for Islam may choose to play the [indeed erroneous] race-card as a counter-argument.
Why on earth don't we just subject all publically-registered organisations to proper controls!
Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning
39. Comment #205476 by Nova on July 7, 2008 at 10:37 am
Former aide to Cardinal Cormac Murphy-O'Connor:It is obvious things are starting to fall apart and Rome wants to be able to help if it can,Ha! I think "Rome wants to hit 'em while their down" is more appropriate!
Other Comments by Nova
40. Comment #205477 by BarelyEvolved on July 7, 2008 at 10:38 am
So I'm confused. Does God hate gays and want them all dead then or not then? Surely He's put the religious leaders straight in some divine way and ensured that His message is coherent and clear? No?Other Comments by BarelyEvolved
41. Comment #205478 by Sargeist on July 7, 2008 at 10:48 am
What really pissed me off today was that I looked on a putatively informative article on the BBC website which was trying to explain all the issues and what the whole story is about. While managing simultaneously to contain absolutely nothing about WHY WHY WHY the bloody church actually thinks there's a problem in the first place. Makes me sick. These supposed news media are just content with saying that there is a problem, and that people are trying to resolve it, without daring (?) to delve into why these people are so knob-headed as to think there is a problem to start with.grrr!
Other Comments by Sargeist
42. Comment #205484 by Mitchell Gilks on July 7, 2008 at 11:04 am
What? Of course women can't become bishops! A woman in a dress and a funny hat talking nonsense? It's impossible to imagine.
Some of my favorite yuri anime take place at catholic girl's schools. Ah, naughty catholic school girls, where would my fantasies be without you?
These tools make me sick. Where is Integra when you need her? She needs to get Alucard to clean house.
Other Comments by Mitchell Gilks
43. Comment #205489 by Mitchell Gilks on July 7, 2008 at 11:12 am
Does anyone else think that the fraze "gay surge" is extraordinarily funny? It's open to so many hilarious interpretations. Other Comments by Mitchell Gilks
44. Comment #205490 by Gregg Townsend on July 7, 2008 at 11:14 am
Comment #205489 by Mitchell Gilks
Mitchell,
Yes indeed. Steve Zara's post above illustrates the image perfectly :)
Other Comments by Gregg Townsend
45. Comment #205491 by Sargeist on July 7, 2008 at 11:14 am
Mitchell: You reminded me of an Alexei Sayle joke: I used to live next door to the Catholic Girls' School. Or, as we called it, the Virgin Megastore.
Other Comments by Sargeist
46. Comment #205492 by Cartomancer on July 7, 2008 at 11:15 am
Does that date me, or what?Now now Steve, it could be worse - you could have said Bros or Wham! - which would have put you even earlier in the palaeolithic according to the official homo-geological dating scheme. After extensive consultation with the modern queer youth (those who didn't run away as soon as they saw me in any case), I am reliably informed that it's a Mr. Mika and somebody from America called Rufus Wainwright that the cool kids are listening to now.
I appreciated Take That during my teenage years in the same way I appreciate Wimbledon today - with the sound off and my finger hovering over the slow-motion replay button. And I was bloody glad when that ugly Mancunian bastard Robbie Williams buggered off to do his own thing and left the attractive ones to get on with it. When I was feeling really dirty I switched to East 17. I think I did quite a few "gay surges" in front of them too. What on earth was I thinking?
Other Comments by Cartomancer
47. Comment #205497 by Paula Kirby on July 7, 2008 at 11:25 am
I wonder if there's anyone outside the Abrahamic religions who can even BEGIN to understand why the issue of women and gays in the church is causing so much angst?
Could anything better illustrate the fundamental intolerance of the religious? Remember - these people who are so exercised about giving women and gays full roles in the church are basing their objections on the supposedly loving and deeply moral teachings of the New Testament. The same teachings they like to claim are so essential to our sense of right and wrong.
You have to wonder about people who can get so up tight about these things: just how EXACTLY do their minds work? Can you imagine the obnoxiousness of the filter through which they view the world?
Other Comments by Paula Kirby
48. Comment #205502 by AllanW on July 7, 2008 at 11:31 am
Paula;'Can you imagine the obnoxiousness of the filter through which they view the world?'
Frankly, no.
Cartomancer;
'that ugly Mancunian bastard Robbie Williams'
Correction; he is an ugly bastard from Stoke :)
Other Comments by AllanW
49. Comment #205503 by Steve Zara on July 7, 2008 at 11:32 am
Paula-The thing that is totally beyond me is the number of women who are against women bishops.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
50. Comment #205504 by Steve Zara on July 7, 2008 at 11:38 am
Comment #205492 by CartomancerSorry my dear fellow, but you are just so out of date. The new hot gay things are Sam Sparro:
http://zarbi.livejournal.com/119849.html
and The Feeling:
http://zarbi.livejournal.com/123076.html
I am sure the lead singer of The Feeling, Dan Gillespie Sells, will meet with your approval.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
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1. Comment #205358 by Quine on July 7, 2008 at 7:30 am
Other Comments by Quine