Skip to Main Content (access key 1)
Skip to Search (access key 2)
Skip to Search GO (access key 3)
Skip to comments (access key 4)
Skip to navigation (access key 5)
Skip to top of page (access key 6)
Monday, July 7, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Teaching Evolution in Mexico: Preaching to the Choir

by Antonio Lazcano - ScienceMag

Thanks to astrobiologiste for the link.

http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/full/310/5749/787

GLOBAL VOICES OF SCIENCE: Teaching Evolution in Mexico: Preaching to the Choir
Antonio Lazcano

image descriptionAntonio Lazcano, a biology professor at the Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México (UNAM) in Mexico City, has studied the origin and early evolution of life for more than 30 years. He was trained both as an undergraduate and graduate student at UNAM, where he focused on the study of prebiotic evolution and the emergence of life. An academic deeply committed to public education, he has devoted considerable efforts to scientific journalism and teaching. He is the author of several books published in Spanish, including The Origin of Life, first printed in 1984 and which has become a bestseller with more than 600,000 copies sold. He is an avid promoter of evolutionary biology and the study of the origins of life in Latin America, and has been professor-in-residence or visiting scientist in France, Spain, Cuba, Switzerland, Russia, and the United States. In addition, he has served on many international advisory and review boards, including ones for NASA and other international organizations. He has just been reelected president of the International Society for the Study of the Origin of Life, the first Latin American scientist to occupy this position.

CREDIT: YE YONG

All essays and interactive features appearing in this series can be found online at www.sciencemag.org/sciext/globalvoices/

In some of his writings, Charles Darwin expressed his interest in visiting Mexico. Although he never fulfilled that wish, Mexicans have reciprocated his interest with a long-standing commitment to his ideas. Based on the common misapprehension that Mexico's strong Catholic background has led to a rejection of evolution, many people in the United States remain convinced that teaching and research on the origins of life must be severely limited in my country. Deriving in part from Spain's Black Legend--in which the stunning intolerance exercised by the Inquisition became unfairly viewed in subsequent centuries as iconic of the country and its colonial exploits as a whole--this self-assuring American prejudice has led many uninformed observers to believe that today's Mexicans are the intellectually suffocated children of the Counter-Reformation, still ruled by a taciturn Papist church that rejects the notion of Darwinian evolution and other major scientific advances while clinging to its theological obsessions.

I am always amused when I am asked by my American colleagues about the problems and pressures they imagine I face in Mexico because of my interest in life's beginnings. However, pressure to include creationism in public pedagogical and research settings has been primarily a phenomenon in the United States. Only twice during my 30 years of teaching about evolutionary biology and research into the origins of life, have I encountered religious-based opposition to my work. In both cases, it came from evangelical zealots from the United States preaching in Mexico. One of the little recognized U.S. imports into Mexico is a small flow of creationists, who, through religion, are trying to impose their fundamentalist beliefs and hinder the teaching of Darwinian evolution in all levels of schooling.

It is true that the arrival of Darwinism was an unsettling event for a number of Latin American Catholics, and led to criticism from various sectors of the Church. However, historians have recorded no major controversies developing in Mexican society after the publication in 1859 of The Origin of Species. Such quietude stemmed in part from the fact that Rome does not advocate the literal reading of the Bible the way Protestant evangelists do. With time, the clash between the Old Testament and Darwin's ideas faded into a more or less peaceful coexistence between the theories and discoveries of evolutionary biology, on the one side, and the teachings of the Church, on the other. Although it might not be generally or frequently acknowledged, there has been an age-old tradition of compatibility between science and the Catholic Church. The Galileo affair stands out as an anomalous moment of extreme intolerance.

Of course, neither the Church nor its members are monolithic entities. As in other places with a strong Catholic background, such as France, Italy, Spain, and most Latin American countries, Mexican society as a whole is not only predominantly secular, but it also takes for granted the existence of strong laical institutions. This is a subtle but important distinction that explains why Mexico and many largely Catholic countries succeed at maintaining an extended form of secularism while also supporting religious freedom. This works so long as citizens in these countries express this freedom within the realm of their personal beliefs and not within a context of public policy-making. It helps here that in Latin America most Catholics tend to read the Old Testament not as the literal truth, but as a depiction of the ways in which divine creation may have taken place. It is thus possible to be a Catholic Bible-reader, or more generally a believer in the supernatural origin of life, without being a card-carrying creationist who has to reject Darwinian evolution in order to maintain logical consistency within a framework of fundamentalist Christian premises.

A Love Affair with Darwin
The study of the origin of life and other issues of evolutionary biology run deep in Mexican culture. This shows up in many ways, including Diego Rivera's cheerful mural paintings of Charles Darwin in public buildings and the popularity of Aleksandr Oparin's ideas about life emerging from a primordial soup. More than 70 editions of The Origins of Life, one of Oparin's earliest books, have been published here and read by generation after generation of high-school students since it was first translated in 1937. Perhaps even more important is the nationwide exposure for many decades of Mexico's schoolchildren to evolutionary ideas included in the textbooks published by the Mexican Secretary of Public Education, which are provided free to all students. The lessons based on these materials are a preamble to in-depth teaching of evolution in secondary (middle school) and high schools.

In the early part of the 20th century, the Mexican naturalist Alfonso L. Herrera (1865-1942) became one of the most active early popularizers of evolutionary ideas. With relentless energy, he lectured, wrote, and established public museums devoted to the promotion of Darwinism. He also contributed to the science of evolutionary biology by developing a theory on the autotrophic origins of life, according to which the first cells had been endowed since their emergence with the plantlike ability to synthesize their own components from carbon dioxide. Although none of Herrera's associates built upon his theory, he had a lasting influence in Mexican biology. Many years after he died, his contributions are still acknowledged, a fact that indirectly helped my own early professional development.


Figure 2 What a guy. In Mexico, Darwin doesn't get a lot of grief.
CREDIT: THE JEREMY NORMAN COLLECTION/SOTHEBY'S


Some 30 years ago, I became intensely interested in the prebiotic significance of extraterrestrial organic compounds, and decided to teach a course on the origins of life at the Universidad Nacional Autónoma de México (UNAM). In large part because of the intellectual foundation Herrera had laid down many decades ago, and the sympathy that Darwin's ideas inspire in Mexico, my proposal to teach the course--in spite of my youth and lack of experience--was greeted with considerable enthusiasm by my colleagues, the university administration, and the students. To this day, new generations of students continue to flock to this and other courses on evolutionary biology.

In yet another sign that Mexico's educators and students embrace Darwinism, my associates and I are often invited to speak in public and private schools, including those run by Catholic nuns and priests, to talk about the origin and evolution of life. The list of venues includes a conference at the oldest Mexican Catholic seminary. Many of the students and professors at the seminary may have seen evolution as the unfolding of a divine plan, but they also saw no doctrinal conflict between their own personal faith and Darwin's scientific ideas. They even found hilarious the idea of teaching creationism based on biblical literalism.

As shown by the opinion article published on 7 July 2005 in the New York Times by Christoph Cardinal Schönborn, not all members of the Catholic hierarchy feel comfortable with the premises and results of evolutionary theory. It is equally true that some Church thinkers and theologians have tried to criticize the philosophical tenets of evolutionary theory, but most tend to accept the results of experimental research and the general evolutionary framework, while maintaining a spiritualist stand. This attitude, which has been prevalent among Vatican theologians especially since the times of Pope Pius XII in the middle of the last century, owes much to the intellectual sophistication of orders like the Jesuits and the Dominicans.

In his famous 1996 address to the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, the late Pope John Paul II acknowledged that the theory of evolution is not a mere hypothesis, while also reiterating the supernatural origin of the human soul. By shifting emphasis from creation per se, to the origin of the soul, Pope John Paul II found a relatively safe common ground to stand on, since scientists are entirely unable to prove (or have no interest in proving) the existence or nonexistence of the soul. In spite of such subtleties, most Mexican Catholics clearly do not view the premises and developments of evolutionary theory as a battleground or as major theological risk. Stealing the spotlight for the moment for Mexican Catholics and other Christians are ethical controversies associated with new and emerging biotechnologies, especially those based on stem cells, fertility research, and genetic manipulation

Science Be Damned
It is hard for Mexicans to understand the hold that religion has in America, and many of us are baffled by the lax attitude of policymakers in the United States to the religious right, who manage to influence and sometimes undermine the public educational system. Thomas Jefferson's famous phrase about "the wall of separation" between the Church and State may be a guiding principle of American politics, but the huge cultural space that evangelical Protestantism and other politically active religious movements have gained in the United States demonstrates how tenuous are the boundaries between the secular and the religious.

As summarized by Noah Feldman in his book Divided by God, the belief that the Old and New Testaments were literally and verbally inspired is deeply rooted in American mainstream culture, and remains a pervasive influence in many aspects of everyday life, including elementary and higher education. In contrast, Mexico still maintains some anticlerical attitudes, and public education bears the secular trademark of the Enlightenment, whose introduction into the country was facilitated by some prominent priests and Jesuits.

Feldman's thesis itself has deep roots. "For more than a thousand years," wrote Thomas H. Huxley in 1843 in the preface to his book Science and Hebrew Tradition, "the great majority of the most highly civilized and instructed nations in the world…have held it to be an indisputable truth that, whoever may be the ostensible writers of the Jewish, Christian, and Mahometan [Islamic] scriptures, God Himself is their real author; and, since their conception of the attributes of the Deity excludes the possibility of error and--at least in relation to this particular matter--of willful deception, they have drawn the logical conclusion that the denier of the accuracy of any statement, the questioner of the binding force of any command, to be found in these documents is not merely a fool, but a blasphemer. From the point of view of reason he grossly blunders; from that of religion he grievously sins."

Although many American churches appear to reject the fundamentalist campaign against Darwinism, some of the most aggressive versions of creationism--including the latest one dubbed "intelligent design" by its champions--have been growing rapidly in the fertile soil provided by some of the evangelical churches that sprung up in the 19th and early 20th centuries. The United States is unique among Western countries for its religiosity. Polls consistently show that only a small percentage of Americans hold a secular view of the world, compared with an overwhelming 40% of the population that believes in strict biblical creationism.

This explains in part why following the 1987 United States Supreme Court ruling that opposed the teaching of so-called creation science in the classroom, a new, recycled, highly pragmatic creationism has evolved (if you pardon the pun). It is a movement that has eliminated open references to Christianity; built networks of lecturers and researchers that propagate the creationist theology; introduced new players like the intelligent design movement; found major sources of funding from foundations run by politically active Christian conservatives; and adapted its fundamentalist literalism not only to the rhythm of pop music but also to the Web.

Their accomplishments can be measured not only by their emerging success in undermining the separation of Church and State in the context of science education in public schools in some states like Kansas, Ohio, and Pennsylvania, but also in the statements by major political figures, including President Bush, that attempt, if not to appease the religious right, at least to assure the public of their unwillingness to take a firm stand in support of evolutionary theory.

Dangerous Exports
Since we can never know in full detail how the origin of life took place, it is not surprising that it is becoming a target for intelligent design creationists. The geological and chemical evidence required to understand life's beginnings remains insufficient and difficult to understand. For creationists, that evidentiary gap provides an opportunity to erect a framework of controversy and endless discussion around the study of prebiotic evolution and the origin of life, which they assume are best explained by an intelligent cause rather than by an undirected process like natural selection.

It is true that there is a huge gap in the current descriptions of the evolutionary transition between the prebiotic synthesis of biochemical compounds and the last common ancestor of all extant living beings. Even the unanticipated discovery in 1982--by the research teams directed by Thomas Cech and Sidney Altman--of catalytic RNA molecules (ribozymes), which can be loosely described as nucleic acids that simultaneously have characteristics of DNA and enzymes, has not closed this gap. Instead, that and related discoveries have led to a more precise definition of what should be understood as the origin of life. The origin of protein synthesis is still not understood, but the surprising conservation of widely distributed polypeptide sequences related to RNA metabolism has led my group and others to suggest that these sequences provide insights into an RNA/protein world that may have resulted from the interaction of ribozymes with amino acids, and that very likely preceded our familiar DNA/RNA/protein world. Our understanding of the origin and early stages of biological evolution still has major unsolved problems, but they are recognized by the scientific community as intellectual challenges, and not as requiring metaphysical explanations, as proponents of creationism would have it.


Figure 3 Darwin's place. At this elementary school, named Evoluciòn, in the small Mexican city of Pachuca, children celebrate Darwin's birthday (12 February) with a ceremony and display of murals on his life and theory.
CREDIT: ULISES ITURBE


Scientists from other countries could take a certain solace in the fact that the creationist movement appears to be largely confined to the United States. I find it extremely encouraging that Mexican students, for the most part, are not driven by gaps in the scientific view of life to search for religious explanations or to vitiate evolutionary theory by advocating intelligent design. Our teachers and pupils alike generally view the framework of intelligent design as a thinly disguised attempt to introduce religious preconceptions into the classroom. Even so, it would be unwise to simply sit back and watch with incredulity as our American colleagues struggle against intelligent design creationists and other fundamentalisms. There are, in fact, manifold indications that the creationism movement has been flexing its muscles and looking to proselytize far and wide. Its potential threat to science education in Mexico and other Latin American countries should not be underestimated.

In the United States, Hispanics account for 14% of the population, but the demography of American science does not reflect this figure. The success of the American educational system in attracting Latinos (many of whom live in the Bible belt) into science careers has been limited, but the evangelical movement has not lost time in recruiting them. Its progress in the United States has been extended by many fundamentalist Mormons and Pentecostalist missionaries who travel abroad to search for adherents in other countries. Their followers now include growing numbers of legal and illegal Mexican migrants, driven by the American dream, who go back and forth across the border. Steeped in the parochial thinking of biblical literalism, the open commitment by these missionaries to impose nonsecular views in education is an indication of a looming confrontation in both countries. Tall fences make good neighbors, but stronger new forms of cooperation between the academic communities on both sides of the Mexican-American frontier could do better.

Creationism is a danger to science education that should be addressed by a constructive dialogue and collective actions led by imaginative researchers and educators on both sides of the border. Our answer to the fundamentalist challenge could include better academic exchange programs, common strategies designed to promote the teaching of evolutionary biology, and joint outreach activities for both Mexican and U.S. Latino students, who share important cultural backgrounds. The potential benefits of such common strategies could be manifold, including a proper honoring of the freedom of all to follow (or not) religious beliefs, while rendering to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, to God the things that are God's…and to Darwin those that are Darwin's.

10.1126/science.1115180

The author is in the Facultad de Ciencias, UNAM, Apdo. Postal 70-407, Cd. Universitaria, Mexico D.F., 04510 Mexico. E-mail: alar@correo.unam.mx

Comments 1 - 48 of 48 |

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

1. Comment #205479 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 10:49 am

 avatarthis sounds like SJ Gould's non-overlapping magisteria thingy

Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning

2. Comment #205487 by altopelirrojo on July 7, 2008 at 11:10 am

 avatar¡Qué interesante! I find it very interesting to note the difference between the mostly Protestant United States, which is full of creationists, and the mostly Catholic Latin America, in which there are very few creationists. The most interesting part is that the only two problems Professor Lazcano has had with religious opposition to evolution were with missionaries from the United States.

Other Comments by altopelirrojo

3. Comment #205488 by Gregg Townsend on July 7, 2008 at 11:11 am

 avatar
Its progress in the United States has been extended by many fundamentalist Mormons and Pentecostalist missionaries who travel abroad to search for adherents in other countries.
Again, I know I probably sound like a broken record and while I totally despise the idiocy known as Mormon theology, it's plainly inaccurate to lump Mormons with Pentecostals.

There is no Mormon doctrine that supports literal interpretation of the Bible and their members don't support creationism. You'll find Darwin's picture hanging next to an evolution chart in any biology classroom in Salt Lake City.

Fundamentalist Mormons don't proselytize so this statement just shows the authors ignorance of their culture. Despise Mormons for what they are but on the subject of evolution they are not our enemy.

Other Comments by Gregg Townsend

4. Comment #205495 by Spinoza on July 7, 2008 at 11:20 am

 avatarGregg, then why do Mormons come to my door trying to sell me shit (religion), up here in Canada? (just saying...)

Fine, they're not pentecostal, they're like Jehovah's Witnesses, at least the ones I'm familiar with.

Maybe the author's experience with Mormons is similar to mine, and not yours?

Other Comments by Spinoza

5. Comment #205498 by Gregg Townsend on July 7, 2008 at 11:27 am

 avatar4. Comment #205495 by Spinoza

Oh, they definitely are trying to sell you religion but (believe it or not) they aren't fundamentalists... maybe I was unclear; Mormons (the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) do proselytize but they are not evolution deniers.

Fundamentalist Mormons (FLDS) do not proselytize they grow their membership through plural marriage and offspring. [edit]I have no idea of FLDS views on evolution [/edit]

There are two groups.

Other Comments by Gregg Townsend

6. Comment #205505 by Ansu on July 7, 2008 at 11:39 am

 avatarI currently live in Venezuela, and I can tell you the situation is pretty much the same. Science in science classes, religion in church.
The problem is that as the catholic church looses grips, this fundies are starting to get more and more members. My greatest fear is that some day we will become like the US, and with out a tradition of free speech and a wall of separation of church and state, the "armies of the dark" will take over and we will become a theocracy (such a thing has already show its fangs, a evangelic mayor in one of our states gave several secular institutions into the control of a particular church).
This, by the way, doesnt mean we are either less superstitious ( african religions everywhere) or even more tolerant ( you can challenge the existence of christ, but try to attack "natural" remedies and you are done for)it just means that the catholic church hold a grip into all posible philosophies and wouldnt permit anything but what they dictate. But such a rulling is slightly secular, and based in the after "enlightment doctrines"of the counter reform. In the US you might not get the idea since these so called Catholics league ( particulary Phillip Donahue) doesnt act at all like our catholics priests ( which wishy washy actitudes like the ones Prof Dawkins complains about in Rev. McCallister... We didnt try to boycott the Golden Compass , you know, even thought 98% of the country is Catholic)
So here , religion discussions are on a second plane. How ever , that doesnt stop the priests on trying to tell the goverment what to do.. the rpoblem its that, most of the time it barely has to anything with religion.

Other Comments by Ansu

7. Comment #205512 by TIKI AL on July 7, 2008 at 11:55 am

Last month a Mormon pack of 3 well dressed and very polite teenage boys on bikes rang the bell and offered to do a good deed for me here in Tempe, Arizona.

I asked them some fundamental questions and they informed me that the earth was indeed 6,000 years old, so I asked them if they would bike to the grand canyon and count the layers for me in an effort to clear this "mystery" up.

Other Comments by TIKI AL

8. Comment #205521 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 12:10 pm

 avatarComment #205488 by Gregg Townsend

''Fundamentalist Mormons don't proselytize ''

So, those that have stopped me on the street before now are the liberal-branch, or were they fundamental and just wanted a chat? Mind you, they are always nicely turned out!

However, and to be honest, I have done work for a day amongst English mormons in Croydon and was impressed at how normal and well-adjusted and well-organised as a community they all were. They seemed like perfectly normal people in fact. I particularly liked their relentless ridiucle of their American bretheren, but then I'm a Brit and that sort of stuff plays well here :O)

Incidentally, I can say the same of a Wiccan gathering I attended in Somerset some years ago.

That is the trouble with religion though, the individuals may be fine, but, in the end, if the ideology stinks.... :O(

Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning

9. Comment #205524 by Mango on July 7, 2008 at 12:12 pm

 avatarAlthough Mexico is a quite Catholic country, its people value education and the intelligentsia. What I especially love about Mexico City are the multitude of bookstores.

Other Comments by Mango

10. Comment #205544 by Gregg Townsend on July 7, 2008 at 12:38 pm

 avatar8. Comment #205521 by Notcrowingbutyawning
Incidentally, I can say the same of a Wiccan gathering I attended in Somerset some years ago.
American Wiccans would rarely be characterized as 'well-organized'. Most don't know a thing about Wicca, militantly resist razors (the men and the women) and routinely stink of patchouli. In the states Wicca has replaced '60s hippies.

Other Comments by Gregg Townsend

11. Comment #205553 by carloshguzman on July 7, 2008 at 12:48 pm

I live in Colombia and the situation here is similar to the report of Lazcano and the comment of Anzu, Colombia has a old Catholic tradition and is self labeled the Country of Christ´s Sacred Hearth, but theres a strong separation between Church and State even in times when the priests made political statements from the pulpit, promising heaven to those that belong to an specific political party.

But as Lazcano points out the importing of Christian fundamentalist churches are turning people to this kind of radical believes and away from the decaying catholic church. New political parties are being created and openly supported by Christian churches with specific agendas that goes against the Secular tradition in this country.

Theres still a lot of resistance from the public and the Catholic church against this advancements of the fundies but I also fear that with the constant increment of new recruits and financial power they can move their religious agenda ahead.

Other Comments by carloshguzman

12. Comment #205574 by Layla Nasreddin on July 7, 2008 at 1:13 pm

 avatarHmm. I'm reminded of a throwaway remark Dawkins made once (can't quite remember where), "Catholics don't know the Bible." Which is not wrong, really, though there are always exceptions. I have heard it said that the Catholic Church claims to be based on "the Bible and Tradition" -- much like how Islam is supposed to be based on the Qur'an and sunnah (tradition). In both cases, it's the latter that provides most of the actual rules. The Catholic de-emphasis on the Bible can be an advantage -- less fundie literalism, though of course this means that most believers haven't the slightest idea of what's actually in their holy book!

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

13. Comment #205578 by decius on July 7, 2008 at 1:16 pm

 avatarComment #205544 by Gregg Townsend

militantly resist razors (the men and the women) and routinely stink of patchouli.


I had to reach for the barf bag.

Other Comments by decius

14. Comment #205584 by decius on July 7, 2008 at 1:28 pm

 avatarComment #205574 by Layla Nasreddin

That's a fair analysis. As a child, I was indoctrinated a catholic (with very little success).
I can tell you, though, that catholic bigotry is second to none, even if they emphasise the new over the old testament.

Other Comments by decius

15. Comment #205622 by Roy_H on July 7, 2008 at 2:22 pm

 avatarComment #205512 by TIKI AL on July 7, 2008 at 11:55 am
That was a brilliant remark!

Other Comments by Roy_H

16. Comment #205623 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 2:23 pm

 avatar10. Comment #205544 by Gregg Townsend

''American Wiccans would rarely be characterized as 'well-organized'. Most don't know a thing about Wicca, militantly resist razors (the men and the women) and routinely stink of patchouli.''

Well, to be honest, what impressed me about the Somerset Wiccans was that they didn't seem any better or worse than anyone else and their parties were great. In a typically English [and I say English rather than British] sense, they didn't let 'belief' get in the way of knees-up. As for their shaving habits, all I can report is that not one woman sported facial hair - although my examination of armpits and other areas was perhaps sadly cursory or amiss.

I can say, however, I got not one whiff of petchouli the whole weekend. When I opined to the, I found out later, High Priestess that the moon, although beautiful, was essentially a lump of rock, she took no pains to contradict me.

In short, on the whole, they went in for it, but didn't really believe it in the end, and that is to their credit. In another incarnation it is called Anglicanism, or at least it used to be. :O(

Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning

17. Comment #205629 by Gregg Townsend on July 7, 2008 at 2:34 pm

 avatar16. Comment #205623 by Notcrowingbutyawning

Fortunately, it appears the English (from which I am obviously descended) don't appear to take their religions as seriously as their science. Thank goodness!

[edit] You want to go to a good party; try hanging out with Asatru. Lots of mead and sharp implements.[/edit]

Other Comments by Gregg Townsend

18. Comment #205634 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 2:44 pm

 avatar17. Comment #205629 by Gregg Townsend

''You want to go to a good party; try hanging out with Asatru. Lots of mead and sharp implements.[/edit]''

There was certainly mead. As for sharp implements, I recall only tent-pegs, although having declared myself a sceptic I might have been disqualified from the inner-sanctum :O)

''Fortunately, it appears the English (from which I am obviously descended) don't appear to take their religions as seriously as their science.''

We used to, but we deported most of it to your neck of the woods, mate. :O)

Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning

19. Comment #205639 by tybowen on July 7, 2008 at 3:04 pm

 avatarPerhaps I can clear up the Mormon position as I was brought up in that religion. The doctrine of the church is anti-creationism (it is explicitly laid down that the earth is older than 6000 years and that the universe is older still, and that the earth was not created out of nothing, but was rather organized). Evolution is also accepted for lower animals, but not for human beings (not always the case, but now is). But of course most Mormons don't know their own theology and have their own beliefs. The topic of evolution is just not talked about a lot from the hierarchy as it is a sensitive subject and people believe whatever the want. But mormons are Officially Not-Creationists (creationism actually goes against Church teachings like God organized the earth rather than created it from nothing).
And if you think the Mormon Missionaries have a through grounding in Doctrine you are mistaken. They have a 3 week crash course in how to persuade people to get baptized. They are told specifically to avoid any deep doctrine as this will just confuse people.

Other Comments by tybowen

20. Comment #205644 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 3:15 pm

 avatarComment #205639 by tybowen

''They are told specifically to avoid any deep doctrine as this will just confuse people. ''

or indeed themselves...

Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning

21. Comment #205647 by tybowen on July 7, 2008 at 3:24 pm

 avatarwell yeah, thats another reason. The mormon missionaries don't fully know it themselves. But they like to talk about it because it is about the only interesting thing left for them to think about.

Other Comments by tybowen

22. Comment #205648 by Gregg Townsend on July 7, 2008 at 3:26 pm

 avatar19. Comment #205639 by tybowen
20. Comment #205644 by Notcrowingbutyawning

No one I've ever known could make heads or tails out of Mormon Doctrine. You have the King James version of Old Testament and the NT (both modified by Joe Smith), added onto that the Book of Mormon, added onto that the PoGP, added onto that the D&C, added onto that the revelations of modern prophets (profits), added onto that the personal opinions of the hierarchy,...

They sure spend a great deal of time trying to correct all the inconsistencies.

Other Comments by Gregg Townsend

23. Comment #205654 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 3:36 pm

 avatarComment #205647 by tybowen

''But they like to talk about it because it is about the only interesting thing left for them to think about.''

Think you might have stated some sort of global truth about religious motivation here :O)

Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning

24. Comment #205661 by TIKI AL on July 7, 2008 at 3:40 pm

Perhaps the 3 Mormon tykes in my driveway had 18 wives between them besides thinking the earth is a youngster. Who knows which group they belong to.

When they left they were puzzled by several bible contradictions I threw out out there, but what really blew there young minds was when I positioned numerous cards and clothespins in their bicycle spokes to play "The Flight of the Bumblebee".

Other Comments by TIKI AL

25. Comment #205665 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 3:44 pm

 avatarComment #205661 by TIKI AL

''but what really blew there young minds was when I positioned numerous cards and clothespins in their bicycle spokes to play "The Flight of the Bumble".''

It would have done for me even if I was only trying to sell you double glazing. Fine technique, Tiki.

Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning

26. Comment #205672 by TIKI AL on July 7, 2008 at 4:04 pm

The "double glazers" see the "NO SALES PLEASE!!" sign and don't ring the bell.

When I asked the Mormons if they saw the sign, they informed me that it didn't apply to religion.

That's when I said "And I suppose you think that the earth is only 6,000 years old, too!"

As I listened to them drive down the block with the melodious strains of "The Flight of the Bumblebee" eminating from their bicycle spokes, I heard one of them proclaim "He's the devil! He's the devil!".

Other Comments by TIKI AL

27. Comment #205685 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 4:23 pm

 avatarComment #205672 by TIKI AL

The devil incarnate indeed, Tiki. But imagine the over-whelming sense of smugness I get from informing door-to-door energy-salesmen that I've got my prices frozen until 2010?

I will have to work on that Flight-Of-The-Bumblebee gambit though :O)

Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning

28. Comment #205690 by huzonfurst on July 7, 2008 at 4:48 pm

How to deal with door-to-door proselytisers, by Bob Heinlein:

"I hardly ever answer the door naked, unless I notice the people knocking are Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons. Then I drop my shorts, light a cigar, grab a drink, fling open the door and say 'Welcome, Brothers, you're just in time for the orgy! Care for some whiskey and cigarettes?'"

Other Comments by huzonfurst

29. Comment #205694 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 7, 2008 at 5:03 pm

 avatar28. Comment #205690 by huzonfurst

"I hardly ever answer the door naked, unless I notice the people knocking are Jehovah's Witnesses or Mormons. Then I drop my shorts, light a cigar, grab a drink, fling open the door and say 'Welcome, Brothers, you're just in time for the orgy! Care for some whiskey and cigarettes?'"

Yeah, but what happens if they accept?!

Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning

30. Comment #205715 by TIKI AL on July 7, 2008 at 5:50 pm

Don't knock a Mormon orgy unless you've tried one.

At 6 wives each they can get pretty kinky.
Just make sure they pay for the food and near-beer.

"10 commandment" condoms are always a big hit.

Other Comments by TIKI AL

31. Comment #205725 by Layla Nasreddin on July 7, 2008 at 6:18 pm

 avatardecius wrote:
I can tell you, though, that catholic bigotry is second to none, even if they emphasise the new over the old testament.


I can't disagree, really -- well, except for Islamic bigotry; I've suspected for a long time that Islam stole shamelessly from the established churches, Catholic and Orthodox, of the time...

I found the article interesting because I live right next to Mexico and there's a lot of "bleed-over" in terms of culture, with a very, very pronounced Latin Catholic flavor.

It seems that, even if you're raised (or "indoctrinated") Catholic, you don't really get the full "impact" of Catholicism unless you're living in a Catholic country. The influence of the Church in such a country is almost stifling, even in a secularized nation like France, which I've seen firsthand! (Not to say that Catholicism isn't guilt-inducing or stultifying or flat-out abusive to anybody who happens to have been brought up in it, just that it seems the impact is much worse if the entire cultural milieu is also Catholic.)

Now, although Catholics are the largest single religious group in the United States, that doesn't change the fact that it's 75% not Catholic, it was founded by (at least nominal) Protestants operating within a Protestant frame of reference regarding religion, etc. If you're a Catholic in the UK, your religion is tempered by the fact that the country is (at least nominally) overwhelmingly Protestant and has a Protestant state church. Compare the UK to Ireland (well, less so now, but the Church is still very powerful there even if fewer people believe in it).

By contrast, Mexico is a very Catholic country, even atheists can't entirely escape the influence of the church (they're "Catholic atheists" after all that indoctrination and cultural influence), and all that sort of thing. It's worth noting that the most extreme anti-clerical movements seem to start up in Catholic (or Orthodox) countries, though hardly surprising!

About Dawkins's comment -- it was such a throw-away comment I'll probably not find it again unless I happen to stumble over it. One little aside: Dawkins says in Root of All Evil? concerning the Assumption of Mary: "Of course there is no evidence for this. Even the Bible says nothing about how Mary died." So? In the Catholic Church, the Bible is very much secondary (or even tertiary) to the Sacred Tradition and Infallible Papal Authority, don't you know? Obviously that's the kind of objection a Protestant (or ex-Protestant) would make! ;-)

Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin

32. Comment #205728 by altopelirrojo on July 7, 2008 at 6:24 pm

 avatarI think I can speak about Mormonism a little bit. I spent the first 25 years or so of my life as a Mormon, and served a two-year mission in Mexico. It was only a couple of years ago that I started to learn, quite by accident, the amazing number of problems with Mormon history and beliefs.

No, Mormons are not fundamentalists in the same way as the "God hates fags" fundies we hear about so much. Nor do Mormons believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible in the way that we would normally think of it. However, Mormons do believe that Adam and Eve were real people, living in the Garden of Eden (in Missouri, by the way). Mormons do believe that the stories of the flood, the tower of Babel, the patriarchs, and the Exodus are literal history. Where Mormons differ is in recognizing that the text has been fundamentally altered since it was originally written down, so that the words we have in the Bible now are not necessarily the same as the ones that were originally written. But Mormons do believe as a matter of doctrine that the original writers of the Bible were divinely inspired and the words of the Bible originally contained the absolute truth from God. The changes that have happened to the biblical text are one of the main reasons that Mormons use to justify the additional LDS scriptures, including the Book of Mormon, that, unlike the Bible, Mormons believe were preserved by God in a pristine state.

Mormons have a difficult relationship with evolution. Many of the early leaders of the church were fundamentally and strongly opposed to any theory that denied the special creation of humans, and many harsh words were pronounced against the theory of evolution. However, the modern leaders of the church have learned a lesson from the past, and are now quite reluctant to say anything that might require them to actually take a position that could get them in trouble later. The Mormon church has no official position on evolution. However, the official doctrines of the church make it extremely difficult for any member of the church to really believe in evolution. As a Mormon, I thought that there was a way to reconcile evolution with special creation, but only because I didn't actually understand what evolution was, and I suspect that this is very common for Mormons.

The general tendency for modern Mormons is to hold on to their strange, deluded beliefs while presenting to the world a nice, clean appearance that is as normal and mainstream as possible.

Other Comments by altopelirrojo

33. Comment #205813 by chuckgoecke on July 7, 2008 at 7:53 pm

 avatarSeems like the topic wandered off Mexican Biology education, so I' going to take us back to Mexico, and the US border. A while back Robert Reich, Berkeley Economic Professor, and former US Labor Secretary under Clinton, on one of his weekly commentaries on NPR put fort some excellent points about what we(the US) are doing wrong with the Immigration Mess. He pointed out parallels between the US and Mexico now and Britain and Poland about 10 years ago. Prior to the EU which opened up the borders between Britain and Poland, there were illegal immigration problems, and the per capita income disparity between Britons and Poles was about the same as it is now between US and Mexicans. (there were other parallels) By opening the border, paradoxically both countries have benefited. England, which was labor short, has benefited, and Poland, which is capital short, got more of that. Reisch argues that this is what we should do here in the US with Mexico. We should open the border completely. People here illegally would not feel trapped here, and could go home and come back when they wanted or needed to. We could save billions on fence building, and enforcement, more could be spent on drug interdiction (we know there is a simple answer to that too, legalize it). I think right now, the US is labor short, in spite of local problems, and I wonder how much of the current recession is due to the chilling effect of the recent crackdown on illegal labor. Reisch is a brilliant guy, and here is his blog: http://www.robertreich.blogspot.com/ I hope he's on Barack's short list(oppps sorry Robert - he's about 5'2")

Other Comments by chuckgoecke

34. Comment #205820 by Radesq on July 7, 2008 at 7:58 pm

 avatarC'mon Chuck can't you be a little less reasonable? You're never going to get elected to public office without working up some phony outrage.

Other Comments by Radesq

35. Comment #205841 by Border Collie on July 7, 2008 at 8:13 pm

Missionaries ... cluck, cluck ... scratch, scratch ...

Other Comments by Border Collie

36. Comment #205973 by King of NH on July 8, 2008 at 1:48 am

 avatarI was saved by Dawkins from a missionary. I was watching a YouTube of his when someone knocked on the door. I opened the door, with Dawkins still yelling about how foolish religion is blaring in the living room, and a young woman dressed like Jackie Kennedy clutching a Bible just smiled, said "nevermind," and walked off. She was very courteous, for someone that threatens eternal hell on her neighbors for a hobby.

But Mexico is kicking American ass in science. One of the richest nations in the world is so unwilling to support science that its poorer neighbor will soon overtake it. When will the average American wake up and see that we are quickly becoming the laughing stock of the world, literally. I am embarassed to see 40% of Americans thinking Genesis is literally true. Holy $%#^! This is exactly like 40% of Americans believing in Santa Clause (I felt inspired by Santa to get you that, Santa is real).

AAAAaaaaarrrrRRRRrrrggggggghhhh... gh..ghh gh ... grow up

Other Comments by King of NH

37. Comment #206003 by decius on July 8, 2008 at 2:48 am

 avatarComment #205725 by Layla Nasreddin

Layla, I chose the rather stronger "indoctrinated" over "raised" because I grew up in Italy in the 60s. You are quite correct in pointing out the difference between been brought up in a catholic country or merely receiving a catholic education.

Here, in short, is my experience at an early age.

My primary school teacher was born in the last decade of the XIX century and had a mentality to match her age and place of origin.
She would teach us creationism instead of science, and blend history with hagiography and super-natural accounts as if they were the same thing. Obviously, for a child there is no way to tell them apart, and had I not developed an inquisitive mind on my own rather early, I might have even doubted real science teachings later in life, for such is the power of child indoctrination. I actually saw this happening in many of my former school-mates, who, to this day, have remained slobbering idiots with regard to anything scientific.

Couple the damage inflicted by that brand of poor educators - since mine was by no mean unique - with the all-pervasive intrusions of the catholic church in social life and other aspects of education, and you will get the picture.
Divorce was forbidden, abortion criminal, cursing a deity a sanctionable offence, and so on.

I am glad to say that, since then, things have largely improved, but not nearly enough. The Italian state is still secular only on paper, and a sort of medieval superstition afflicts every aspect of life with an incredible number of people engaging in idolatry and believing in horoscopes.

Luckily, it isn't my problem any longer since I got fed up and left in disgust a long time ago, with no regrets.

Other Comments by decius

38. Comment #206052 by decius on July 8, 2008 at 3:49 am

 avatarComment #205728 by altopelirrojo

There is no way to reconcile evolution with mormonism. You'll have to throw out molecular biology anyway, to make it possible for horses to live in America before Columbus, or for the indios being descendants of a lost tribe of Israel (or whatever nonsense they claim, I can't really remember).
You will have to throw out biology, archaeology, and history, too, coming to think of it.

Other Comments by decius

39. Comment #206246 by altopelirrojo on July 8, 2008 at 7:37 am

 avatardecius,

Yes, you're right that you have to throw out many branches of science in order to believe in mormonism. Unfortunately, the majority of Mormons will never hear, ever, that horses had been extinct in America for thousands of years until Columbus showed up. They will never hear, ever, that there is no archaeological evidence to support the book of mormon. The only Mormons familiar with this information are those who are into Mormon apologetics, which has a shameful ability to reconcile anything and resolve anything with the weakest of arguments. I think I'm just lucky that I stumbled upon Jared Diamond before I stumbled on Mormon apologetics.

Other Comments by altopelirrojo

40. Comment #206258 by Diacanu on July 8, 2008 at 7:46 am

 avatarKing of NH-


But Mexico is kicking American ass in science.


El Luchadore run off with your chimichanga?

Try Shmegalamonga!!

http://dickynoo.blogspot.com/

Made right here in the states by fat shiftless union slobs!

Other Comments by Diacanu

41. Comment #206269 by decius on July 8, 2008 at 8:00 am

 avatarComment #206246 by altopelirrojo

It looks like the school-system is failing the students, or do you reckon those arguments are purposefully avoided in mormon states?
The natural history of the equines is part of most European high-school science curricula.

Other Comments by decius

42. Comment #206274 by Steven Mading on July 8, 2008 at 8:06 am

Greg Townsend - the reason people didn't get what you meant is because of a glitch in the English language. Capitalization means you're using a proper noun. But you also capitalize the beginning of a sentence. So when you put a proper noun at the beginning of a sentence, the reader can't see that the capitalization means it's a proper noun. It looks like it's only being capitalized because it's at the start of the sentence. Therefore when you wrote "Fundamentalist Mormons" at the start of a sentence people read "Fundamentalist" as just being an adjective, not as part of the name of the FLDS. And while it might be true that Fundamentalist Mormons (uppercase) don't proselytize, it is true the fundamentalist Mormons (lowercase) do proselytize.

Other Comments by Steven Mading

43. Comment #206362 by altopelirrojo on July 8, 2008 at 10:00 am

 avatardecius,

I didn't grow up or attend school in a "mormon state." I went to school in Maine. I took biology like everyone else in high school and graduated at the top of my class. If any of my science teachers ever mentioned the Columbian Exchange, or even really tried to teach the theory of evolution, it either must not have been an important part of the class, or else it must have been drowned out in my consciousness by the constant repetitions of "I know that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God" at church. I remembered the words "xylem" and "phloem" though. That's what really matters, apparently. Somehow I got straight A's in high school without ever trying to avoid hard classes, and somehow I was taken by surprise when years later I learned that there were no horses in America when Columbus arrived.

It was a public school, not in the Bible belt, and at the time I thought it was a pretty good school. Guess not.

Other Comments by altopelirrojo

44. Comment #206368 by decius on July 8, 2008 at 10:07 am

 avatarComment #206362 by altopelirrojo

Thx, very interesting.

Other Comments by decius

45. Comment #206374 by Gregg Townsend on July 8, 2008 at 10:16 am

 avatar42. Comment #206274 by Steven Mading

True.

I find it funny that the fundamentalist Mormons (lowercase) don't really get their own religion or where it came from and how hard the leaders worked to shed the fundamentalist label. They, in essence, are the modern leader's worst enemy--that was until they put Monson in as President. Monson should be able to drag Mormons back 30 years (as witnessed by his policies in California)! Hopefully, membership will fall off and their whole house of cards will come crashing down.

Other Comments by Gregg Townsend

46. Comment #206602 by sindiosxfa on July 8, 2008 at 2:18 pm

Interesting article. My experience living in Mexico is very much in agreement with what this article mentions, and yes I`ve encountered those missionaries from the USA but I politely have given them the middle finger. One thing that I noticed recently (couple of years) is the constant mentioning of god in television, we do have a conservative party (PAN) in charge of government which coincides with the timing and that might explain the constant god-praising. I do hope that Mexico does not become like the USA in terms of the anti-evolution tug-of-war being fought there, but still I believe that there is much more freedom to criticize the church up north (USA) than there is here. Since becoming atheist, I have been outcast from certain social circles and have even been threaten with death when I discuss my views about the Catholic Church.

Other Comments by sindiosxfa

47. Comment #206747 by CrimsonRick on July 8, 2008 at 6:15 pm

I'm glad to hear that my former countrymen are not creationists. I left Mexico when I was 12 so I never got to hear these debates when I was living there. But I agree that my experience was more secular and religion never entered into my schools (public or private). I learned the basics of evolution early on without any kind of "alternative theories." I wonder if the reason for all this is that Catholicism and some remnants of native religious (polytheistic/sun worship kind of ideas) co-existed, and do so to this day in some areas, so that people understood that some believe in feathered snakes while others believe in Jesus, but they're just beliefs.

Other Comments by CrimsonRick

48. Comment #206754 by Radesq on July 8, 2008 at 6:30 pm

 avatarCrimsonRick or Crimson Chin? http://www.bbc.co.uk/ouch/images/features/nemo/chin_120x120.jpg

Other Comments by Radesq
Reload Comments | Back to Top

Comment Entry: Please Login

Register a new account

Username:

Password: