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Atheist soldier sues Army for 'unconstitutional' discrimination
CNN
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Reposted from:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html
Video from OneGoodMove.org
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist but is now an atheist
- His sudden lack of faith cost him his military career and put his life at risk, he says
- Hall sued the Defense Department; claims military is a Christian organization
- Pentagon official: Complaints about evangelizing are "relatively rare"
KANSAS CITY, Kansas (CNN) -- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist.
Like many Christians, he said grace before dinner and read the Bible before bed. Four years ago when he was deployed to Iraq, he packed his Bible so he would feel closer to God.
He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.
Hall said he met some atheists who suggested he read the Bible again. After doing so, he said he had so many unanswered questions that he decided to become an atheist.
His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.
In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.
"I think it's utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional," Hall said.
Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.
Two years ago on Thanksgiving Day, after refusing to pray at his table, Hall said he was told to go sit somewhere else. In another incident, when he was nearly killed during an attack on his Humvee, he said another soldier asked him, "Do you believe in Jesus now?"
Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.
He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.
"I was told because I can't put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn't make a good leader," Hall said.
Michael Weinstein, a retired senior Air Force officer and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is suing along with Hall. Weinstein said he's been contacted by more than 8,000 members of the military, almost all of them complaining of pressure to embrace evangelical Christianity.
"Our Pentagon, our Pentacostalgon, is refusing to realize that when you put the uniform on, there's only one religious faith: patriotism," Weinstein said.
Religious discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment and is also against military policy. The Pentagon refused to discuss specifics of Hall's case -- citing the litigation. But Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.
"If an atheist chose to follow their convictions, absolutely that's acceptable," said Carr. "And that's a point of religious accommodation in department policy, one may hold whatever faith, or may hold no faith."
Weinstein said he doesn't buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.
Another group, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization's Web site, reads, "A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit."
Weinstein has a different interpretation.
"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army," he says.
But Carr said the military's position is clear.
"Proselytizing or advancing a religious conviction is not what the nation would have us do and it's not what the military does," Carr said.
The U.S. Justice Department is expected to respond to Hall's lawsuit this week. In the meantime, he continues to work in the military police unit at Fort Riley and plans to leave as soon as his tour of duty expires next year.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/08/atheist.soldier/index.html
Video from OneGoodMove.org
STORY HIGHLIGHTS
- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist but is now an atheist
- His sudden lack of faith cost him his military career and put his life at risk, he says
- Hall sued the Defense Department; claims military is a Christian organization
- Pentagon official: Complaints about evangelizing are "relatively rare"
KANSAS CITY, Kansas (CNN) -- Army Spc. Jeremy Hall was raised Baptist.
Like many Christians, he said grace before dinner and read the Bible before bed. Four years ago when he was deployed to Iraq, he packed his Bible so he would feel closer to God.
He served two tours of duty in Iraq and has a near perfect record. But somewhere between the tours, something changed. Hall, now 23, said he no longer believes in God, fate, luck or anything supernatural.
Hall said he met some atheists who suggested he read the Bible again. After doing so, he said he had so many unanswered questions that he decided to become an atheist.
His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.
In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.
"I think it's utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional," Hall said.
Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.
Two years ago on Thanksgiving Day, after refusing to pray at his table, Hall said he was told to go sit somewhere else. In another incident, when he was nearly killed during an attack on his Humvee, he said another soldier asked him, "Do you believe in Jesus now?"
Hall isn't seeking compensation in his lawsuit -- just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.
He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.
"I was told because I can't put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn't make a good leader," Hall said.
Michael Weinstein, a retired senior Air Force officer and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is suing along with Hall. Weinstein said he's been contacted by more than 8,000 members of the military, almost all of them complaining of pressure to embrace evangelical Christianity.
"Our Pentagon, our Pentacostalgon, is refusing to realize that when you put the uniform on, there's only one religious faith: patriotism," Weinstein said.
Religious discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment and is also against military policy. The Pentagon refused to discuss specifics of Hall's case -- citing the litigation. But Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.
"If an atheist chose to follow their convictions, absolutely that's acceptable," said Carr. "And that's a point of religious accommodation in department policy, one may hold whatever faith, or may hold no faith."
Weinstein said he doesn't buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.
Another group, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization's Web site, reads, "A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit."
Weinstein has a different interpretation.
"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army," he says.
But Carr said the military's position is clear.
"Proselytizing or advancing a religious conviction is not what the nation would have us do and it's not what the military does," Carr said.
The U.S. Justice Department is expected to respond to Hall's lawsuit this week. In the meantime, he continues to work in the military police unit at Fort Riley and plans to leave as soon as his tour of duty expires next year.
Comments 1 - 50 of 55 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #206878 by mordacious1 on July 8, 2008 at 11:43 pm
If only Klinger new that being an atheist would get him back home faster than wearing a dress. Other Comments by mordacious1
3. Comment #206879 by scrithe on July 8, 2008 at 11:46 pm
I've seen a few articles like this on here, and though I'm not doubting the validity of what events he's talking about, I think the general assumptions about the military may be a bit off.I myself am in the military, the Air Force, in my case, and I haven't really ever experienced discrimination, that I know of, because of being an atheist. It's also really well known that I am. And there are a fair few where I work that are also are some variety of non-believer. Now, I haven't tried to set up some free-thinkers group, and I haven't protested when a chaplain stands up to pray, but I don't take part in anything religious and I would, and have, openly discussed these issues with others while on duty.
So, I'm not saying that there aren't religious aspects to the military, many of which I'd like to change, however, speaking from my own personal experience, the organizations and supervisors I've interacted with have generally been very impartial and have actual led me to others that share a similar view as mine, within the military.
Other Comments by scrithe
4. Comment #206880 by JamesDB on July 8, 2008 at 11:48 pm
This again huh
I've been waiting to see how this turns out, apparently the government is a little slow with regards to anti christian lawsuits.
There is no reason why they shouldn't find in favor of these soldiers, i have no doubts this breaches their rights under the constitution.
Other Comments by JamesDB
5. Comment #206884 by mordacious1 on July 8, 2008 at 11:59 pm
Actually, the military doesn't have complete constitutional protections, they'd have to argue that it's a violation of the UCMJ, which, if true, it is. Other Comments by mordacious1
6. Comment #206887 by Hypoluxa on July 9, 2008 at 12:11 am
What total dip-shits this guy must have served with. This guys possible career is now up shit creek all because of some ass-backwards mentality of a few brain dead soldiers and supervisors.Im fortunate that I never had to many bible thumpers in my unit when I was active Army. Im glad he stood up for his rights and is speaking out. I salute you Spc Hall!
Other Comments by Hypoluxa
7. Comment #206900 by Eventhorizon on July 9, 2008 at 12:39 am
"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army,"
This may well be the single most terrifying sentence I have ever read (shudder)
Other Comments by Eventhorizon
8. Comment #206919 by HitbLade on July 9, 2008 at 1:21 am
GO HALL! Kick stupid people's asses!Other Comments by HitbLade
9. Comment #206934 by altopelirrojo on July 9, 2008 at 1:52 am
When I was in the Navy, I was still Mormon. Sometimes others would talk to me about my beliefs. But most of the people around me were smart and very open-minded. I suspect that if I had been an atheist at the time it would have been a fairly similar experience. I have a lot of complaints about the Navy, but as far as I know they're stance on religious issues is not one of them. At official ceremonies, one of the established customs is to have the chaplain say prayers, but I don't see that as too threatening. As far as I could see, chaplains don't proselytize , and their main job is to help morale. Does anything think that chaplains paid with public funds constitute a violation of the Establishment clause? I'm not sure. Other Comments by altopelirrojo
10. Comment #206988 by OverUsedChewToy on July 9, 2008 at 4:17 am
"In another incident, when he was nearly killed during an attack on his Humvee, he said another soldier asked him, "Do you believe in Jesus now?" "Yes, because jesus helped so much *rolls eyes*
Other Comments by OverUsedChewToy
11. Comment #207000 by mdowe on July 9, 2008 at 4:50 am
I'd be interested in hearing more details of the complaints of the other 8000 people. It seems every time I hear about this problem, it's always Jeremy Hall. Other Comments by mdowe
12. Comment #207008 by tony1865 on July 9, 2008 at 5:00 am
I just shared this CNN story with a friend via IM and he responded:Paul says (12:54):
onward Christian soldiers - kill in the name of god and you will be alright my son
Paul says (12:55):
murder and blow a few limbs of kids in the process and you will surely go to heaven
Other Comments by tony1865
13. Comment #207014 by Johnny O on July 9, 2008 at 5:09 am
I remember whilst serving in the British Army, doing a joint exercise with some American infantry.
At the end of the exercise there was a parade, where they handed out some awards, but before it started and as it ended they had prayers. There were about 30 of us Brits and we all stood with our heads up straight laughing our arses off.
It may have just been this regiment, but when we socialised with them, they seemed to be poorly educated and predominately from the Southern States.
Other Comments by Johnny O
14. Comment #207039 by action1976 on July 9, 2008 at 5:43 am
Johnny OI see it everyday with the American troops out here in Iraq when you go to the Dfac there is always someone praying before they have their meal.
Makes me laugh I am sure it is KBR that provides there food not Jesus.
12 years in the British Army I never met a soldier who really took there Religion that seriously.
Other Comments by action1976
15. Comment #207048 by Dhamma on July 9, 2008 at 5:53 am
It's quite amazing one can get discriminated for not believing in what one cannot see. If anyone should get discriminated it's the morons that DO believe in what one cannot see. Other Comments by Dhamma
16. Comment #207081 by CruciFiction on July 9, 2008 at 6:55 am
"Anderson Cooper 360" did an excellent report on this story of Jeremy Hall last evening:http://youtube.com/watch?v=7xZgvkCIZzA
Other Comments by CruciFiction
17. Comment #207092 by Dhamma on July 9, 2008 at 7:15 am
"Our Pentagon, our Pentacostalgon, is refusing to realize that when you put the uniform on, there's only one religious faith: patriotism," Weinstein said.
If you ask me, it just goes to show that ALL faith is not just ridiculous, but also very dangerous.
Other Comments by Dhamma
18. Comment #207094 by rokeisland on July 9, 2008 at 7:17 am
I served 8 years in the US Navy. On the whole, most people I've ever met in the navy and the air force were pretty open minded about religion. They let you do your thing and they did their thing. yes, there were official prayers and such that I didn't join in, but no one ever reprimanded me for it. It was the people in the army and marines you had to watch out for. Yes, nowadays especially in the marines God is part and parcel of the training, weather the officially admit to it or not.About the only thing I ever found offensive was the shipboard evening prayer, because I had to listen to that drivel EVERY NIGHT at 10 pm. One time I was on watch trying to keep the ship's steam catapults ready to go, when I got stopped in the hallway and prevented from doing my job because me walking around was offending some people praying. that's about the worst thing that the Navy Religious Corp (as I called them) ever did or said to me.
Other Comments by rokeisland
19. Comment #207121 by wagnerpe on July 9, 2008 at 8:06 am
"Do you believe in Jesus now"
I wonder if that guy saw the "sky daddy" swoop down and save him from that crash? They're in the Muslim world, so maybe it was Muhammed on his flying horse saving one deserving infidel.
It frightens me that these people are the ones on the front lines protecting us. You would think that rational thinking and respect for your fellow compatriots would be major assets to our troops.
Other Comments by wagnerpe
20. Comment #207122 by happinessiseasy on July 9, 2008 at 8:06 am
I'm so glad CNN is running this story. We need more stories like this out there. In fact, I'm gonna click on the "Email This to a Friend" link a few times and make sure it stays on the "Most Emailed" list. Other Comments by happinessiseasy
21. Comment #207132 by Broicher on July 9, 2008 at 8:18 am
"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army,"I just realized that they have nukes!
Other Comments by Broicher
22. Comment #207134 by Isaksson on July 9, 2008 at 8:21 am
When I did my service to this country (sweden), It was with a complete lack of religiouse influence. Im not even sure we had a military priest, shaplin or whatever you call them. Religion has no place in the military, to my experience, and if someone are so inclined, go pray on your free time. Dont blame me if you lack quality time with your mate due to praying though.
Other Comments by Isaksson
23. Comment #207136 by Dhamma on July 9, 2008 at 8:24 am
Isaksson:Then again, we live in the world's most atheist country ;)
Other Comments by Dhamma
24. Comment #207139 by carloshguzman on July 9, 2008 at 8:28 am
The only thing that the US ARMY needs is to put a big cross on the soldiers uniform, and they can revive the Crusades. They already have send young boys to die on a far foreign country in the defense of stupid ideas and some oil.Other Comments by carloshguzman
25. Comment #207143 by Isaksson on July 9, 2008 at 8:38 am
DhammaSo true, and look how horrible we are, starting wars, crime going through the roof, terrorism, and... Wait a minute!!!!
One thing though, I really dont like this FRA survailance thing our goverment are doing. It has to be withdrawn, or it will cost us who live here and this country greatly, I fear. Thats another topic, however.
All in all, it's not a bad place to live.
Other Comments by Isaksson
26. Comment #207147 by j.mills on July 9, 2008 at 8:45 am
Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare."
Relative to what? And the question is not whether they're rare, but whether they're justified.
I wonder if the guy who said "Do you believe in Jesus now?" was wearing body armour. Reminds me of a letter in Viz! - "The Pope-mobile is surrounded by 3-inch thick bullet-proof glass. There's f*cking faith for you."
Other Comments by j.mills
27. Comment #207150 by refuteist on July 9, 2008 at 8:46 am
Check out their web site which has a prominent notice about prayer sessions at the Pentagon:www.christianembassy.com/content.asp?contentid=360
Originally i said "Just noticed today that the Christian Embassy seems to be active in the UK too:saw poster for a Pastor's talk:can't remember his name!"
Sorry the organization I saw is "Christ embassy":it advertises a "night of Bliss with Pastor Chris" WoW
Other Comments by refuteist
28. Comment #207156 by jenlaferriere on July 9, 2008 at 8:57 am
This concept of a christian military is an extension of a government that claims to be protecting a christian nation, doing the "good deeds" in the name of a christian god. The US governments realiance on faith in matters of policy is scary as hell! (forgive the pun) When this tendancy creeps into the military sphere, that's even more disturbing. Other Comments by jenlaferriere
29. Comment #207158 by flobear on July 9, 2008 at 8:59 am
Well, I guess if you want to send poorly educated teenagers over seas to die for oil, it helps to have them stamped out of the same religious mold. Soon going to war will be our national pastime. Move over baseball. Other Comments by flobear
30. Comment #207159 by rokeisland on July 9, 2008 at 8:59 am
"They already have send young boys to die on a far foreign country in the defense of stupid ideas and some oil."Ok, now Carloshguzman, I KNOW that you didn't just call freedom a stupid idea. No matter what you say about the President's reasons for invading Iraq, or Congress's reasons for going with it, the soldiers on the ground over there are fighting and dying to help Iraq become a free country.
Freedom is never stupid, even if some people use it stupidly.
Other Comments by rokeisland
31. Comment #207163 by Dhamma on July 9, 2008 at 9:00 am
Isaksson: No, this FRA-law feels really not Swedish at all.The only thing I really don't like about Sweden is the coldness among the people. Other than that,
it's almost rude to complain when you compare us to other countries.
Other Comments by Dhamma
32. Comment #207166 by al-rawandi on July 9, 2008 at 9:04 am
Oh christ on a fucking bicycle.
The only thing that the US ARMY needs is to put a big cross on the soldiers uniform, and they can revive the Crusades. They already have send young boys to die on a far foreign country in the defense of stupid ideas and some oil
Stupid ideas like what? Making sure my economy is strong? Attempting to establish a pliant democracy in a region filled with the nepotistic, the evil, the incompetent, and a whole lot that merge all three? rokeisland is right... Lies were adduced to support the war, the war was a terrible idea, the war should end... but people are fighting to keep Iraqis safe from their co-religionists who would blow them limb from limb with suicide bombs.
Other Comments by al-rawandi
33. Comment #207176 by Hypoluxa on July 9, 2008 at 9:14 am
I remember whilst serving in the British Army, doing a joint exercise with some American infantry.Johnny O, yep same for me here, my time spent in the US Army most of the fairly devout religious types tended to be from what we call the "bible belt". A good portion are fairly uneducated usually just a HS education if that, maybe a GED. To make matters worse, the Army promotes at least back when I was in, by not having to know your particular job, mainly just supervisor skills etc.. so you get these backwoods types as your supervisors. Man that really sucked.
At the end of the exercise there was a parade, where they handed out some awards, but before it started and as it ended they had prayers. There were about 30 of us Brits and we all stood with our heads up straight laughing our arses off.
It may have just been this regiment, but when we socialised with them, they seemed to be poorly educated and predominately from the Southern States.
The military in some cases is all that these guys have for the most part as a stable career. They dont have any other job skills/ education or training that could help them outside in the real world from where they are from,, the stories I heard was " It was either jail or the military, or being homeless or the army, or being able to get 3 meals a day/ shelter or starve"... its kinda sad actually.
Other Comments by Hypoluxa
34. Comment #207195 by CruciFiction on July 9, 2008 at 9:56 am
See "The Christian Embassy" video, filmed inside the Pentagon with high-ranking officers:http://tinyurl.com/2rg6yz
Other Comments by CruciFiction
35. Comment #207200 by Hypoluxa on July 9, 2008 at 10:09 am
34. Comment #207195 by CruciFiction on July 9, 2008 at 9:56 am
See "The Christian Embassy" video, filmed inside the Pentagon with high-ranking officers:
http://tinyurl.com/2rg6yz
Uggghh I wanna vomit now.
Other Comments by Hypoluxa
36. Comment #207227 by Ishruul on July 9, 2008 at 10:59 am
Errr.....hmmmm....
I can't help but ask myself, is the Crusade really over?
Other Comments by Ishruul
37. Comment #207238 by Eventhorizon on July 9, 2008 at 11:14 am
al-rawandi
"making sure my economy is strong"
Is that now a reason to go to war with another country?
Other Comments by Eventhorizon
38. Comment #207254 by zeroangel on July 9, 2008 at 11:52 am
I was an officer in the US Army, and I have to say, most of the comments from other ex-US military types on this board seem accurate from my POV.
I do think though, on some level, at least in the officer corps, it is encouraged to have some kind of religious view.
The unspoken policy seems to be "don't ask, don't tell" when it comes to being an atheist.
Before joining the military I was a fairly comfortable atheist. I later adopted (or at least claimed to adopt) an idea of a "transcendental God" or a kind of Deist, pseudo-Christian God. I did this for several reasons.
One reason that comes to mind is I can recall a superior officer (an otherwise very cool guy) telling me something to the effect of I should be careful when voicing my atheist viewpoints because I might offend people (of course it was OK for theists to offend me, which they did often enough, both officers and enlisted).
Another thing is, well God and country seem to be intimately intertwined for some people. That is, you aren't a good, strong patriot unless you say the pledge with pride (including the "under God" part), like apple pie, believe in God, and are a Republican (in no particular order).
Finally, the idea is that, in a general sense, its good for morale. Whether that means it helps folks spiritually or it consoles people facing death is anyone's guess, but that seems to be the idea. Its true that there are many decent chaplains out there that don't proselytize, and I have met more than a few that follow the "God helps those who help themselves" mantra.
It's funny, but I guess I am one of few people that was raised Christian, then realized I was an atheist, then converted back to "Christian" again, and then finally admitted to myself that I have always been an atheist (this was after leaving active duty).
My point throughout all of this is this: it is true that the US military has some issues to work out in this regard. I imagine if I were more of an outspoken atheist in the military I would have had similar problems. I think this soldier is very brave to take this stand and I applaud him. Let's hope the US army adapts and overcomes these challenges and becomes the purely secular organization it should be.
Other Comments by zeroangel
39. Comment #207256 by JernJane on July 9, 2008 at 11:56 am
"Their purpose is to have Christian officers exercise Biblical leadership to raise up a godly army,"
This may well be the single most terrifying sentence I have ever read (shudder)
Indeed.
The word "crusade" rings a bell. No, in fact it's making all the alarms inside my head go off.
Other Comments by JernJane
40. Comment #207308 by Border Collie on July 9, 2008 at 1:35 pm
Death cults will be death cults ... Other Comments by Border Collie
41. Comment #207348 by the_ultimate_samurai on July 9, 2008 at 2:47 pm
hmm...im not sure this is realy an issue of the governments, from what i read (havent seen he video) it sounds like he was being harassed by other soldiers, not by commanding officers. fellow soldiers can harass you for whatever reason they like, its not in the governments control, he says he was passed for promotion for objecting to the prayer, he created a divisive situation which sepperated him from his fellow officers, a poor way to foster closeness with ones fellow officers, who you depend on for your life.he has his right to be an atheist just as they have their right to be christians, and they are in a situation where they need the security blanket of god, just one of those things that help someone get through war.
i think the commanding officer was correct in his decision to pass him up, i think he shows a patern of disruption which, while fine for a normal society, is very bad for an army.
i notice there was no mention of him reporting this behaviour to his commanding officer, nor any mention of his commanding officers taking part in it (like in some of the other similar stories)
Other Comments by the_ultimate_samurai
42. Comment #207402 by Drew on July 9, 2008 at 4:55 pm
From http://ocf.gospelcom.net/
Mission Statement -
Christian officers exercising biblical leadership to raise up a godly military.
That sent a chill up my spine. Holy war anyone?
Other Comments by Drew
43. Comment #207461 by mikes on July 9, 2008 at 10:19 pm
Patriotism is not determined by waving a flag, pointing a weapon and following orders, but by the level one is informed and the sense of self value that follows from it.Spc. Hall is a true patriot to the US. And considering he stood up for what he believed in--without resorting to violence--a greater leader then his military associates.
Other Comments by mikes
44. Comment #207509 by Saerain on July 10, 2008 at 1:17 am
On the 'Do you believe in Jesus now?' bit, in his interview on CNN Jeremy Hall said that his response was, 'No, but I believe in ballistic armour.'
He would fit right in around here. Someone see to it.
Other Comments by Saerain
45. Comment #208005 by Ian on July 10, 2008 at 1:04 pm
Is that now a reason to go to war with another country?
That is so quaint.
Other Comments by Ian
46. Comment #208007 by Fanusi Khiyal on July 10, 2008 at 1:14 pm
This is one of the most revolting things I have heard in my life. I'm often accused of being 'too cozy' with the Christians. Well, this goes a long way to correcting that.Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal
47. Comment #208044 by MAS2007 on July 10, 2008 at 2:25 pm
You should have more than enough information, by now, to understand why military intelligence is such an oxymoron.
If you could just increase the rationality of the species. Military services rarely attracts or retains the brightest recruits.
It becomes ever increasingly difficult to take orders, from a chain of command, when they blatantly display they have no right, or ability, to be in command.
Other Comments by MAS2007
48. Comment #208171 by zeroangel on July 10, 2008 at 4:56 pm
I feel I must respond to some of the comments concerning our armed forces.
It is simply a myth that, as a whole the military is any less educated then any similar demographic in the civilian world.
The facts are that enlistees (especially in the technical fields) are more educated than those folks in the civilian workforce that opted to go straight to work and put off college (for whatever reason, temporarily or permanently).
As far as officers are concerned, they are all college graduates. Academy grads are very intelligent as the academies are highly selective. ROTC grads must maintain a decent GPA in order to keep thier scholarships, and non-scholarship or OCS officers are no less intelligent than any other college graduate.
I believe there are several factors involved in why the US military seems to be a little less than "secular" in some cases. Those reasons are varied but probably have alot to do with they way the US is as a whole.
I like what the the_ultimate_samurai had to say above. On that note, I would really be interested to know what this guy's company commander and even battalion commander has to say. Likely we will never know.
As I related in my previous comment, I DO think the US military has some work to do in this area. However, policy is to make accommodations for those of all faiths (or non-faiths) and the military bends over backwards to do so. Anyone who has served recently can attest to this (COO training anyone?)
It sounds like something really and truly went desperately wrong in this guy's unit.
Other Comments by zeroangel
49. Comment #208535 by Telic on July 11, 2008 at 2:40 am
"Right Hall. You go investigate the abandoned vehicle.
We'll back you up by forming a prayer circle and singing Kumbaya."
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50. Comment #209437 by eevyl on July 12, 2008 at 8:18 am
mmm i feel a movie coming on;
"
Kaffee: I want the truth!
Col. Jessep: [shouts] You can't handle the truth!
"
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1. Comment #206865 by black wolf on July 8, 2008 at 11:00 pm
I found it ironic that Hall was sent home early. 'There are no atheists in foxholes, and when we find one, we make sure it stays that way.'
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