Sunday, July 13, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

by KOCO 5 News

Thanks to LochRaven62 for the link.

http://www.koco.com/news/16860079/detail.html

Church Cancels Teen Gun Giveaway

OKLAHOMA CITY -- An Oklahoma church canceled a controversial gun giveaway for teenagers at a weekend youth conference.

Windsor Hills Baptist had planned to give away a semiautomatic assault rifle until one of the event's organizers was unable to attend.

The church's youth pastor, Bob Ross, said it's a way of trying to encourage young people to attend the event. The church expected hundreds of teenagers from as far away as Canada.

"We have 21 hours of preaching and teaching throughout the week," Ross said.

A video on the church Web site shows the shooting competition from last year's conference. A gun giveaway was part of the event last year. This year, organizers included it in their marketing.

"I don't want people thinking 'My goodness, we're putting a weapon in the hand of somebody that doesn't respect it who are then going to go out and kill,'" said Ross. "That's not at all what we're trying to do."

Ross said the conference isn't all about guns, but rather about teens finding faith.

"You make a lot of new friends down here," said Vikki Goncharenko, who attended the conference. "You get to meet new people. There's a bunch of things that are going on. It's just, you have a wonderful time."

Friday evening, Ross said the gun giveaway had been canceled. Pastor emeritus Jim Vineyard, who ran the event, injured his foot and wouldn't be able to attend. The gun giveaway was also removed from the church Web site.

Ross said the church would give the gun away next year instead. He said the church spent $800 buying the gun for the promotion.

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1. Comment #209797 by SimplyIrresponsible on July 13, 2008 at 11:16 am

What's next to encourage attendance? Liquor? Sex? Drugs?

I believe Lewis Black said it best, "These people are Stone-cold Fuck Nuts."

Other Comments by SimplyIrresponsible

2. Comment #209800 by Negasta on July 13, 2008 at 11:20 am

I fully support the right of free people to own guns, but this is just crazy.

Giving away an assault weapon to teenagers is just stupid and does nothing but damage the cause of responsible gun owners/advocates.

Other Comments by Negasta

3. Comment #209801 by fontor on July 13, 2008 at 11:21 am

Who would Jesus blow away?

I used to think the phrase "Praise the Lord and pass the ammunition" was a crude caricature. No longer.

Other Comments by fontor

4. Comment #209802 by Village_Idiot on July 13, 2008 at 11:25 am

The church's youth pastor, Bob Ross, said it's a way of trying to encourage young people to attend the event.

By giving away a semiautomatic assault rifle and a license to kill in the name of Jesus? Someone pinch me! Am I dreaming or this is XXI century?

Other Comments by Village_Idiot

5. Comment #209803 by SimplyIrresponsible on July 13, 2008 at 11:34 am

Perhaps I am wrong but I do see a glimmer of hope in today's youth from this story. It seems the message of Christianity alone is not strong enough to get them to attend and so the promoters of such events must rely on gimmicks (as if Christianity weren't gimmick enough in and of itself) to get the people in the pews.

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6. Comment #209804 by decius on July 13, 2008 at 11:38 am

Not really surprising, it's absolutely in line with baptist doctrine.

Other Comments by decius

7. Comment #209805 by Tenochtitlan on July 13, 2008 at 11:39 am

Guns and religion, you just can't make this stuff up.

Other Comments by Tenochtitlan

8. Comment #209806 by rod-the-farmer on July 13, 2008 at 11:40 am

Giving away a semi-automatic rifle.....the mind boggles. Whatever happened to s jacket with a sport team logo ? Or maybe some music CD's, or a gift certificate for a clothing store ? And a CHURCH did this. What sort of kids did they think would be attracted to such an offer, that they would not reach with a chance to win a nice jacket ? And the only reason this did NOT happen was that a key person was unable to attend. Does this mean this sort of thing has gone on before, and it just never became public news ? Only in the Excited States of America.

Edit - What do you think would happen if this was an Amish gathering ?

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

9. Comment #209807 by Alkal on July 13, 2008 at 11:41 am

Yeah, that is just what we need, immature people, who believe in a sky-fairy, equipped with guns.

Other Comments by Alkal

10. Comment #209808 by mordacious1 on July 13, 2008 at 11:45 am

With a muslim under every rock and an atheist around every corner, it doesn't hurt to be prepared.

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11. Comment #209811 by Jaz on July 13, 2008 at 11:49 am

Negasta,
Yeh, I fully support the right for people to own guns too. I wouldn't stop there, people should have the "right" to own bombs, grenades, etc or any lethal weapon

Other Comments by Jaz

12. Comment #209817 by Colwyn Abernathy on July 13, 2008 at 11:55 am

"We have 21 hours of preaching and teaching throughout the week," Ross said.

Yeah, kids aren't gonna want to show up to sit through all that, even for a bitchin' semi-auto carbine. Wait...WAS it a carbine? That MIGHT be worth it. I'd go just to spout Epicurius at 'em. ;)

EDIT:

Edit - What do you think would happen if this was an Amish gathering ?

They'd've whittled the gun themselves out of oak, or ash, prolly would've looked nicer.

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

13. Comment #209820 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 13, 2008 at 11:56 am

I just wonder how this particular church would view a similiar promotion by some other religion.

Other Comments by Notcrowingbutyawning

14. Comment #209823 by Village_Idiot on July 13, 2008 at 11:59 am

Negasta, you fully support the right of FREE people to own guns.

1. What do you mean FREE?
2. Do YOU have a gun?

Other Comments by Village_Idiot

15. Comment #209828 by Colwyn Abernathy on July 13, 2008 at 12:01 pm

Village,

I do. ;) Does that count?

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

16. Comment #209833 by Negasta on July 13, 2008 at 12:05 pm

"1. What do you mean FREE?
2. Do YOU have a gun?"

1. Free People = Citizens that have not been convicted of a violent crime and do not suffer from a psychological disorder predisposing them to violence.

2. Unfortunately I do not have a private fire arm because I do not have the time or money to jump through the hoops the South African Government has put in place of prospective gun owners.

Other Comments by Negasta

17. Comment #209834 by Border Collie on July 13, 2008 at 12:07 pm

Hey, it IS Oklahoma and it IS a Baptist Church afterall. You Euros are expecting WAY too much from the colonies.

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18. Comment #209836 by Village_Idiot on July 13, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Colwyn Abernathy, it does not unless you have a big SUV and a motorcycle with no muffler...

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19. Comment #209838 by mordacious1 on July 13, 2008 at 12:13 pm

When you click on the video link for the news broadcast, you have to listen to a mastercharge commercial.

Better might have been: "Going to church to learn religious bullshit...free".
"Believing that your soul will spend eternity with god in heaven, while all your neighbors burn in hell...also free".
"Winning an AR-15 semi-automatic assault rifle, so you can send your neighbors to hell sooner...PRICELESS".

Other Comments by mordacious1

20. Comment #209841 by Colwyn Abernathy on July 13, 2008 at 12:17 pm

Village,

Can't say I do, no. I got a Tippman Custom 98, tho. Paintball: the closest to actual firearm combat you can get without getting fragged...literally. ;)

EDIT:

Mord...that was friggin' hilarious. I approve of your ridicule. ;)

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

21. Comment #209842 by Jaz on July 13, 2008 at 12:18 pm

Negasta,
How obsurd. You imply that everyone who hasn't commited a violent crime or has a known psychological condition isn't capable of gun mis-use??
I'm sorry but there is absolutely no defence whatsoever for gun legalisation.

Other Comments by Jaz

22. Comment #209845 by Colwyn Abernathy on July 13, 2008 at 12:21 pm

I'm sorry but there is absolutely no defence whatsoever for gun legalisation.

How about having the right to rise up and depose a government gone amok? The first freedom dictators revoke is the right to arm bears...

...wait.

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

23. Comment #209846 by decius on July 13, 2008 at 12:22 pm

Comment #209833 by Negasta

Citizens that have not been convicted of a violent crime and do not suffer from a psychological disorder predisposing them to violence.

There are a few problems right there.

-The fact that one hasn't been convicted isn't guarantee that one won't turn to crime later in life, particularly with low age limits for gun ownership.

-Psychological evaluations are very difficult and expensive. Who should foot the bill? Again, there is no guarantee that conditions won't develop later in life.

-Ire and rage can temporarily blind people, how they will react under certain hormonal tempests doesn't show in normal circumstances (i.e. during evaluation). A gun on hand may turn a verbal dispute into a tragedy.

-Multiple lines of evidence show that possession of firearms is more likely to cause social problems than solve them.

Other Comments by decius

24. Comment #209849 by mordacious1 on July 13, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Border

Oklahoma is a little too far west to have been a colony.

Other Comments by mordacious1

25. Comment #209850 by Village_Idiot on July 13, 2008 at 12:24 pm

Jaz:

I'm sorry but there is absolutely no defence whatsoever for gun legalization.

You're right unless one lives next to a lion nest with some unhatched eggs...

Other Comments by Village_Idiot

26. Comment #209851 by Colwyn Abernathy on July 13, 2008 at 12:26 pm

A gun on hand may turn a verbal dispute into a tragedy.

So can a bat, steak knife, chair, or TV. If you REALLY want to kill your husband, the presence of a gun won't make that much of a difference.

EDIT:

Multiple lines of evidence show that the possession of firearms is more likely to cause social problems than solve them.

Evidence also shows that an armed community has a lower crime rate. Makes the bad guys think twice about mugging someone. Banning guns won't keep them out of the hands of said bad guys, either, just those responsible citizens who MAY want to keep the playing field level.

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

27. Comment #209852 by Colwyn Abernathy on July 13, 2008 at 12:27 pm

You're right unless one lives next to a lion nest with some unhatched eggs...

Uh...non sequitur? Totally lost me...

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

28. Comment #209853 by catskill on July 13, 2008 at 12:29 pm

A week of preaching and "teaching" is a lot scarier than a gun prize to me. Its not like they were in NYC. In Oklahoma guns are everywhere, and whomever would have won the gun probably already has access to firearms.

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29. Comment #209854 by Jaz on July 13, 2008 at 12:30 pm

That's a good point village.

p.s. Like the avatar by the way. The Simpsons writers use Homer brilliantly to "dis-arm" religion. It's like, if Homer can see through it, then what does that say about the rest!!

Other Comments by Jaz

30. Comment #209856 by mordacious1 on July 13, 2008 at 12:32 pm

Colwyn

He lost me too.

As far a gun legislation goes, how about:

In the U.S., over three thousand children and teens are killed by guns each year. Not exactly a reason to hand out more guns to them, is it? Of course one could argue that my kid needs a gun to protect himself from the kid next door, who just won a gun at church.

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31. Comment #209858 by Colwyn Abernathy on July 13, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Not exactly a reason to hand out more guns to them, is it?

Sure isn't. How many of those deaths are in households of hunters? You know, the ones who teach their children proper care and handling of their tools? A child who hunts with his family isn't one who accidentally blows his brother's head off. The guns themselves aren't the problem. It's the same with alcohol and drunk driving. Banning booze or cars won't solve the problem either.

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32. Comment #209862 by decius on July 13, 2008 at 12:43 pm

Comment #209858 by Colwyn Abernathy

A child who hunts with his family isn't one who accidentally blows his brother's head off.

So the statistics detailing an appalling amount of fatal hunting accidents are fakes?

EDIT

It's the same with alcohol and drunk driving

Also, this is a false analogy. Alcohol must be ingested in great quantity and driving doesn't automatically follows.
Instead, each bullet fired is potentially lethal.

Other Comments by decius

33. Comment #209863 by Radesq on July 13, 2008 at 12:47 pm

decius,

Those statistics are artificially inflated...you have to account for the outlying Vice Presidential hunting "accidents".

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34. Comment #209867 by Colwyn Abernathy on July 13, 2008 at 12:52 pm

So the statistics detailing an appalling amount of fatal hunting accidents are fakes?

Good point. So long as we're talking body counts, who's for taking booze off the market? Anything risky is going to invariably cause some kind of misery due to human error. I don't see how this should ruin it for those who are responsible.

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35. Comment #209869 by decius on July 13, 2008 at 12:55 pm

Comment #209867 by Colwyn Abernathy

I already answered this in my edit above. Let's not bring poor logic into the discussion, please.

Other Comments by decius

36. Comment #209872 by sseldogmai on July 13, 2008 at 1:01 pm

"There are a few problems right there.

-The fact that one hasn't been convicted isn't guarantee that one won't turn to crime later in life, particularly with low age limits for gun ownership.

-Psychological evaluations are very difficult and expensive. Who should foot the bill? Again, there is no guarantee that conditions won't develop later in life.

-Ire and rage can temporarily blind people, how they will react under certain hormonal tempests doesn't show in normal circumstances (i.e. during evaluation). A gun on hand may turn a verbal dispute into a tragedy.

-Multiple lines of evidence show that possession of firearms is more likely to cause social problems than solve them."

decius,
we can't allow governments to dictate rights based on what might happen in the future. As cliched as it may be, criminals and the likes will always be able to get them simply based on supply and demand. If there is a demand, someone will supply it.

Other Comments by sseldogmai

37. Comment #209877 by William1w1 on July 13, 2008 at 1:10 pm

I think the the right of citizens of the United States to possess weapons is obsolete. That law was made when the worst thing that someone could have owned was a musket. If you never change a constitution, then as the years go by and society changes, old laws seem more and more absurd. There's a reason the United States have far more gun-related deaths than here in Canada, and it isn't thanks to differences in the movies we watch. It's because of the accessibility of guns and the way the public views them in general.

To all of you claiming that knives and bats are dangerous too, it's a question of where to draw the line. Certainly, no one here would endorse the right of citizens to own mortars, that would be insane. But if buddy down the street has one, then shouldn't you too? No! All this would do is make everyone scared and more likely to kill or be killed.

By the way, we aren't even allowed to carry knives with blades longer than an average palm size, basically limiting us to pocket knives, and as well it should be. All your gun rallies and arguments that people should have guns frankly scare the hell out of me. It's the major reason that I never want to visit America. For all I know, the guy next to me on a bus could have a gun. Yes, that could happen here too, but it's far less likely, and if it were reported or seen the person with the gun would be arrested.

I mean I would be TERRIFIED down there.

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38. Comment #209878 by MPhil on July 13, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Just take a look at the statistics.
Compare countries regarding guns per capita and crimes involving guns per capita... one ought to take areas with roughly equal population density for a meaningful comparison...should make it pretty clear.

People who believe to have a direct connection to the creator and sustainer of the universe, the final and ultimate morality AND who think that their country is the bestest, freest, goodest, wonderfullest country on god's earth and that the "American Race" is the crowning achievement of the world (compare countries populations' levels of religiosity with prevalence of nationalism)... yes, that's exactly the kind of people I want to be armed to the teeth... not.

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39. Comment #209884 by Lev-CapeTown on July 13, 2008 at 1:18 pm

Most criminals where I live have guns. What's wrong with evening out the odds in the case of an unexpected confrontation, i.e. house burglary?

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40. Comment #209887 by Diacanu on July 13, 2008 at 1:23 pm

Are your teens sobbing over not getting their fill of precious nutritious life giving guns this weekend?

Paint your nipples and suckle them with Shmegalamonga!!

Now in green apple!

http://dickynoo.blogspot.com/

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41. Comment #209888 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 13, 2008 at 1:24 pm

Here in Blighty of course it would be quite simply restricted to a book token and rightly so!

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42. Comment #209889 by MPhil on July 13, 2008 at 1:24 pm

That's the problem - isn't it. A dilemma. There is good reason for that - but it leads to a spiral of excessive violence.... and many many "accidents" with guns, like shooting someone who you mistake for a burglar. If you ask me, owning and operating lethal weapons shouldn't be the norm... and especially not for children.

Still - the only objective information we really can get about the "value" of gun ownership are such statistical comparisons as I outlined above.

But then there is the problem with the entire culture of violence, fear, bias, anti-intellectualism, machoism, lack of reflective ethics etc - as evident from the media. But sadly that's true (although to varying degrees) of most countries. Although Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Switzerland etc seem to suffer the least from this.

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43. Comment #209892 by mordacious1 on July 13, 2008 at 1:29 pm

I know Al is going to weigh in on this tomorrow A.M., but I have to say that the AR-15 makes a shitty hunting rifle. Great for killing people though. I knew several GI's that carried one in Viet Nam, because they jammed less, and let's face it, if you're going rock n roll it's because you're scared shitless. By the way, I can turn an AR-15 into fully auto in about 30 minutes. So let's not give them to the kids OK? If the pastor was indeed a Special Forces officer, he should know better.

Other Comments by mordacious1

44. Comment #209893 by sseldogmai on July 13, 2008 at 1:30 pm

Comment #209877 by William1w1

The problem with the musket idea is that at that time that was the cream of the crop weapon. So my being able to own a hand gun that is equivalent to anyone else's is no different than then.

Automatic weapons are however illegal except for the military. It is about personal defense, and like I said before criminals don't care about laws so they feel free to get any type of weapon they want.
The key to making a place safe is cracking down on illegal gun sales and ownership, not making it illegal for anyone to own a gun. That would simply make alot more people criminals.

And don't be such a sissy about America, I have lived here 28 years and I have never seen a violent crime involving any type of weapon. No america is not the greatest nation in the world, but it is better than some.

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45. Comment #209899 by decius on July 13, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Comment #209872 by sseldogmai

Before carrying a gun can be universally recognised as a right, you have to show that your desire to carry a gun takes precedence over my right not to be hit accidentally, or to walk around unarmed without feeling threatened by loonies with guns.

I know that the US constitution calls it a right, but that's an anomaly compared to all other democratic constitutions. Consider that at the time when the US chart was drawn, the country was lawless for its larger part, and in an initial phase of colonialism. Hardly the conditions of the modern western world.

EDIT The main point that I made earlier is that the psychological evaluation as it is intended now is a joke. Therefore the premise that only "free" citizens certified as psychologically healthy are allowed to carry guns is wrong.

Other Comments by decius

46. Comment #209903 by Cartomancer on July 13, 2008 at 1:42 pm

Surely this is an onion-style parody? Surely?

It must be, right? It's even written in parodic style - I mean, cancelled because the pastor hurt his foot? Shot himself in the foot? If that's not a blatant joke I don't know what is.

Poe's Law strikes again I fear...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

47. Comment #209908 by D'Arcy on July 13, 2008 at 1:46 pm

Christians have always loved firepower. As Jesus Himself said:

"Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man's enemies will be the members of his household. He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me. He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matthew 10:34-39 NASB)

If the last sentence isn't condoning martyrism, I don't know what is.

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48. Comment #209909 by Hellene on July 13, 2008 at 1:46 pm

I can't resist;

"...and now the new christian rock band...."

"Guns & Moses!"

Other Comments by Hellene

49. Comment #209910 by mordacious1 on July 13, 2008 at 1:48 pm

Carto

You can watch the kids blasting away on the news link. Probably training them to join the all-christian military.

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50. Comment #209911 by Lev-CapeTown on July 13, 2008 at 1:49 pm

Comment #209889 by MPhil

I definitely don't think owning guns should be the norm, but without a gun in South Africa living by yourself, the odds are definitely against you. But, you right it is a dilemma. If the police were efficient enough in confiscating illegal arms I would be the first to support banning of all privately owned arms.

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