









Taking a Cue From Ants on Evolution of Humans2. Comment #210717 by Chris Davis on July 15, 2008 at 2:36 am
Hmm. Just found3. Comment #210718 by equivocal20 on July 15, 2008 at 2:38 am
4. Comment #210720 by mordacious1 on July 15, 2008 at 2:42 am
I was hoping someone would post this, read it in the Times today, good article.5. Comment #210727 by beeline on July 15, 2008 at 2:56 am
6. Comment #210741 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 3:23 am
I'm fine with scientific writing harnessing the poetry of human emotion, after all, life is a beautiful subject to wax lyrical on...but it sounds a note of unease when a scientist can 'add' ambivalence at the request of a publisher. Yes, I truly believe this but, well, it's so complicated that I can't quite believe it! Isn't life complicated! Stop asking so many scientific questions with discoverable answers and bang on about the connection between ants and men - it doesn't matter if group selection makes scientific sense, there's a sort of wonder to it, so it's fine!
No, sorry, I love poetry, I love emotion, I love the vagaries of literary complexity but emoting a scientific principle without evidence and just because it 'feels' better to us is just as bad as the sky-faery crowd.
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7. Comment #210802 by notsobad on July 15, 2008 at 4:48 am
8. Comment #210814 by suffolkthinker on July 15, 2008 at 5:29 am
Everytime I dig into the Selfish Gene v Group Selection argument it strikes me it is one of those non-argruments made into a major controvsery.9. Comment #210815 by Jestyr on July 15, 2008 at 5:32 am
Auraboy, I think that the publishers wanted him to add emotion and ambivalence to his novel, not to his straight scientific work.10. Comment #210816 by Jestyr on July 15, 2008 at 5:37 am
Has anybody heard about horizontal Gene transfer. Have a look at this article.11. Comment #210818 by Bonzai on July 15, 2008 at 5:42 am
I predict Wooter will show up with his psychobables to laugh at us for 'having respect' for ants .12. Comment #210842 by jdbartlett on July 15, 2008 at 6:28 am
13. Comment #210852 by beeline on July 15, 2008 at 6:43 am
14. Comment #210860 by Auraboy on July 15, 2008 at 6:55 am
15. Comment #210897 by Border Collie on July 15, 2008 at 8:12 am
I'd like to read a book someday by one of the 'greats' that hasn't been eviscerated by a publisher. Yea, I know, dream on.16. Comment #210923 by JLD Calgary on July 15, 2008 at 8:58 am
Of the differences between science and religion, he says: "Stop quibbling ?quot; I'm willing to say 'Under God' and to hold my hand to my heart. That's recognition of how this country evolved, and that we are using strong language to strong purpose, even if we may not agree on how the Earth was created."
17. Comment #210969 by SiMPelMYnd on July 15, 2008 at 10:12 am
I have to agree with beeline on this.18. Comment #210989 by 82abhilash on July 15, 2008 at 11:05 am
When I heard the word 'The Superorganism' my bullshit detector went into overdrive. It reminded me of the people who call the earth a superorganism 'Gaia'. I am not implying E.O Wilson takes to the 'Gaia' concept though.19. Comment #210993 by m.o.kane on July 15, 2008 at 11:11 am
20. Comment #211016 by Cluebot on July 15, 2008 at 12:14 pm
I was under the impression that "tit for tat" strategies were already shown through mathematical models to be strongly favoured, evolutionarily stable solutions for social cooperation. How's the "Such traits are difficult to account for" line justified?21. Comment #211017 by EeekiE on July 15, 2008 at 12:17 pm
22. Comment #211028 by abilard on July 15, 2008 at 12:31 pm
23. Comment #211165 by D'Arcy on July 15, 2008 at 2:38 pm
Men make their own history, but they do not make it as they please; they do not make it under self-selected circumstances, but under circumstances existing already, given and transmitted from the past. The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living.
24. Comment #211218 by 82abhilash on July 15, 2008 at 3:45 pm
22. Comment #211028 by abilard on July 15, 2008 at 12:31 pm
I must be missing something, because this dispute between Dawkins and Wilson seems a bit like a tempest in a teapot. If I understand them correctly, both agree that 1) genes are the unit of natural selection and that 2) natural selection can favor genes that in turn favor the group. To speak of "group selection" then would just be to shift the level of analysis exclusively to those pressures that favor such genes and their social effects. Is Dawkins' point that speaking at this level is unproductive, confusing, or invalid? What am I missing?
25. Comment #211258 by abilard on July 15, 2008 at 4:59 pm
26. Comment #211272 by 82abhilash on July 15, 2008 at 5:21 pm
26. Comment #211258 by abilard on July 15, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Thanks for the information, 82abhilash. I suppose the genes don't care whether they are organized into a group of cells called an organism, or a group of organisms called a colony, so long as they survive and replicate.
Group strategies are certainly present in nature and have a genetic basis (Wilson's ants). As such they can be selected for or against. Perhaps reproductive entities are the best unit of analysis, with queens and drones representing one unit as part of a hive strategy, and individual humans representing another.
27. Comment #211370 by Roy_H on July 15, 2008 at 10:52 pm
28. Comment #211546 by Animavore on July 16, 2008 at 6:15 am
29. Comment #212875 by windy on July 17, 2008 at 7:35 pm
It's rather painful to see Wilson argue that "...deep in their heart everyone working on social insects is aware that the selection that created them is multilevel selection". Come on!Everytime I dig into the Selfish Gene v Group Selection argument it strikes me it is one of those non-argruments made into a major controvsery.
...it has long been known that group selection cannot explain the strong altruism of insect workers without invoking greater between-group genetic variance than can be achieved through random assortment [refs]. And which ever way you slice it, this between-group variance means that group members are related
30. Comment #214232 by MatthaiNazrani on July 20, 2008 at 3:04 am
Applying cues from ants to humans? I don't think that the author gets it. Ant colonies have few reproductive agents. They share more DNA. I should think that any observation of an entire ant colony applies to a single human, not a group of them, because of these basic differences.Dr. Wilson, changing his mind because of new data about the genetics of ant colonies, now believes that natural selection operates at many levels, including at the level of a social group.
Such traits are difficult to account for, though not impossible, on the view that natural selection favors only behaviors that help the individual to survive and leave more children.
"Groups with men of quality" brave, strong, innovative, smart and altruistic" would tend to prevail, as Darwin said, over those groups that do not have those qualities so well developed," Dr. Wilson said.
31. Comment #220050 by windy on July 28, 2008 at 2:54 am
The recent Scientific American has a related piece of news:
1. Comment #210715 by Chris Davis on July 15, 2008 at 2:31 am
CD
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