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Wednesday, July 16, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Let's Get Rid of Darwinism

by Olivia Judson - NY Times

Thanks to SPS for the link.

http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/15/lets-get-rid-of-darwinism/index.html

Let's Get Rid of Darwinism


(The third part in a series celebrating Charles Darwin.)


Charles Darwin was a giant. He did not merely write "On the Origin of Species" — one of the most important books ever written by anyone — in which he describes how evolution by natural selection works, and what some of its consequences and implications are. He also wrote — and this list is not exhaustive— a treatise on the formation of coral reefs that is still thought to be correct; a definitive monograph on barnacles, both extinct and extant; a book about how earthworms make soil; a now-classic text on carnivorous plants (the ones, like Venus fly-traps, that ensnare and digest insects); a book about the strange ways that orchids get themselves fertilized; and an account of the five years he spent aboard the ship HMS Beagle, which has become a classic of travel writing.

As if that wasn't enough, he proposed sexual selection — the idea that decorations and ornaments, like peacocks' tails, evolve because females in many species prefer to mate with the most beautiful males. Sexual selection has since become a major field of research in its own right.

In short, Darwin did more in one lifetime than most of us could hope to accomplish in two. But his giantism has had an odd and problematic consequence. It's a tendency for everyone to refer back to him. "Why Darwin was wrong about X"; "Was Darwin wrong about Y?"; "What Darwin didn't know about Z" — these are common headlines in newspapers and magazines, in both the biological and the general literature. Then there are the words: Darwinism (sometimes used with the prefix "neo"), Darwinist (ditto), Darwinian.

Why is this a problem? Because it's all grossly misleading. It suggests that Darwin was the beginning and the end, the alpha and omega, of evolutionary biology, and that the subject hasn't changed much in the 149 years since the publication of the "Origin."

He wasn't, and it has. Although several of his ideas — natural and sexual selection among them — remain cornerstones of modern evolutionary biology, the field as a whole has been transformed. If we were to go back in a time machine and fetch him to the present day, he'd find much of evolutionary biology unintelligible — at least until he'd had time to study genetics, statistics and computer science.

Oh, there would be so much to tell him! A full list would take me weeks to write out. But the obvious place to begin would be the discoveries of genetics, especially DNA. We'd have to explain that cells in each organism contain a code describing how to build that organism, written in chemical form — DNA — that evolutionary forces are constantly rewriting. Indeed, the study of DNA allows us to see the action of natural selection on a molecule-by-molecule basis. We can see the genes where natural selection acts to prevent evolutionary change, those where it drives change and those where it has no effect at all.

Then there's the fusion of genetics with natural selection, which has enormously expanded our understanding of how natural selection can work. For example, it has led to the discovery that natural selection does not just shape individuals — the length of a beak, the color of a fin. It can also act on family groups, and thus drive the evolution of cooperation and other altruistic behaviors.

The reason is that evolutionary success can now be measured in terms of the number of genes an individual contributes to the next generation. Anyone who dies without reproducing does not directly contribute any. But because individuals have some genes in common with their family members, they can make an indirect genetic contribution if they help their relations to reproduce instead of reproducing themselves. Such "kin selection" is thought to have contributed to the evolution of the social insects — especially, ants, bees, wasps and termites — where only a few individuals reproduce and everyone else looks after the offspring.

We'd want to discuss evolution beyond natural selection — the other forces that can sometimes cause (or prevent) evolutionary change. For although natural selection is the only creative force in evolution — the only one that can produce complex structures such as wings and eyes — it is not the only force that affects which genes will spread, and which will vanish.

And, and, and.

What would he make of it all?

I think his reaction would be a mix of satisfaction and astonishment. Satisfaction: that natural selection has turned out to be such a powerful idea, explaining such a wide range of phenomena. Astonishment: for the same reason. He would, I think, be fascinated by the weird natural history that has been discovered in the past 150 years — such as Wolbachia, bacteria that pervert the reproduction of insects for their own ends. (Wolbachia can have a number of effects, but one of the most common is to kill all a female's sons. The reason is that sons don't transmit Wolbachia, so from Wolbachia's point of view, they are a waste of space.) I'm not sure he'd enjoy analyzing DNA sequences — he might find it a bit too abstracted from the living organism — but I think he'd be delighted to learn the results. I think he would be shocked by how much we know about the so-called model organisms — worms, toads, fruit flies, mice, humans and the bacterium E. coli — and how little we know about everything else. And I think he'd be startled by the nature of scientific research — the scale of the enterprise, the cost, the pressures to publish and the degree of specialization that results. His brand of science — 20 years of thinking about a problem before publishing — could not be done today.

But I digress. To return to my argument: I'd like to abolish the insidious terms Darwinism, Darwinist and Darwinian. They suggest a false narrowness to the field of modern evolutionary biology, as though it was the brainchild of a single person 150 years ago, rather than a vast, complex and evolving subject to which many other great figures have contributed. (The science would be in a sorry state if one man 150 years ago had, in fact, discovered everything there was to say.) Obsessively focusing on Darwin, perpetually asking whether he was right about this or that, implies that the discovery of something he didn't think of or know about somehow undermines or threatens the whole enterprise of evolutionary biology today.

It does not. In the years ahead, I predict we will continue to refine our understanding of natural selection, and continue to discover new ways in which it can shape genes and genomes. Indeed, as genetic data continues to flood into the databanks, we will be able to ask questions about the detailed workings of evolution that it has not been possible to ask before.

Yet all too often, evolution — insofar as it is taught in biology classes at all — is taught as the story of Charles Darwin. Then the pages are turned, and everyone settles down to learn how the heart works, or how plants make energy from sunshine, or some other detail. The evolutionary concepts that unify biology, that allow us to frame questions and investigate the glorious diversity of life — these are ignored.

Darwin was an amazing man, and the principal founder of evolutionary biology. But his was the first major statement on the subject, not the last. Calling evolutionary biology "Darwinism," and evolution by natural selection "Darwinian" evolution, is like calling aeronautical engineering "Wrightism," and fixed-wing aircraft "Wrightian" planes, after those pioneers of fixed-wing flight, the Wright brothers. The best tribute we could give Darwin is to call him the founder — and leave it at that. Plenty of people in history have had an -ism named after them. Only a handful can claim truly to have given birth to an entire field of modern science.

**********

NOTES:

A full account of the range of Darwin's activities and accomplishments can be found in any biography. Many publications are guilty of the "Was Darwin wrong?" trope, and some of the biggest quarrels in modern evolutionary biology have concerned the validity of "non-Darwinian" evolution. A number of popular accounts discuss aspects of modern evolutionary biology; one of the best is "The Ancestor's Tale," by Richard Dawkins. Much has been written about male-killing by Wolbachia; see, for example, Jiggins, F. M., Hurst, G. D. D., Dolman, C. E., and Majerus, M. E. N. 2000. "High-prevalence male-killing Wolbachia in the butterfly Acraea encedana." Journal of Evolutionary Biology 13: 495-501.

This article was inspired (as so many others have been) by a conversation with Oliver Morton — many thanks, as always. Thanks, too, to Dan Haydon, Gideon Lichfield, Dmitri Petrov, Daniel Richler and Jonathan Swire for insights, comments and suggestions.

Comments 1 - 50 of 57 |

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1. Comment #212068 by Eshto on July 16, 2008 at 2:57 pm

 avatarI agree. And this takes a lot of the wind out of the ID proponents' sails.

My Christian friend expressed skepticism toward evolution, because, he said, surely Darwin must have been wrong about some things. He was, I told him. For example he knew nothing about genetics and his theory of heredity was wrong, and corrected later. That satisfied my friend. Somehow he had gotten the idea that science has been standing still since Darwin. He just needed someone to explain things to him.

I also noticed the right wing only attacks Darwin, and I think sometimes they know they are doing it. On Book TV once I even saw Ann Coulter (... oop hold on... feeling a little sick... burp... gag... okay I'm fine now, where was I?) start to bash evolution, and she started saying the word but corrected herself! She said something like "oh those godless liberals believe in evolu... I mean Darwinism, blah blah blah, venom venom venom".

That made me think she might be somewhat aware that she's attacking straw men.

Other Comments by Eshto

2. Comment #212071 by DalaiDrivel on July 16, 2008 at 3:06 pm

I thought this was going to be another creationist rebuke... :(

Terrific then!

I like the Wright Brothers analogy at the end- a very effective and accurate analogy in my opinion.

I don't know how it was adopted, but Darwinism does have a distinctly (almost instinctively) negative tone to it. It's like a built-in controversy element...

I wonder if that's why creationists like it, like any -ism, which typically is an idea to which you actually have a choice in accepting or rejecting as "right" or "wrong."- Socialism or Capitalism... Imperialism... Pacifism... The sheer ism-ic sound strikes tones of confrontation within them.

So they convince themselves that, being an ism, it can be refuted, argued against, outright rejected if they wish... without one ever realising that, far from being debatable, the essence of Darwinism, evolution by natural selection, is a fact, as RD once said, like a table being a table, and not anything else, is a fact.

This is just a theory.

Anyways, yes- let's get rid of Darwinism. And maybe we can get rid of Atheism at the same time...

EDIT: Eshto,

Interesting Coulter quote. I'm not surprised she attacked a straw man there, Evolution and Darwinism, being, in at least good faith, the same thing.

Evolution is simply harder to openlty reject than "Darwinism" I think. Maybe it's the sociological overtones that people have taken Darwinism historically to imply.

More for the controversy!

Other Comments by DalaiDrivel

3. Comment #212074 by Jenny Taylier on July 16, 2008 at 3:09 pm

"I think his reaction would be a mix of satisfaction and astonishment."

I like the idea of bringing Darwin to the present, but part of that astonishment would surely be that despite 150 years of building the edifice of supporting evidence, half of the population refuses to believe it.

Other Comments by Jenny Taylier

4. Comment #212078 by Simonw on July 16, 2008 at 3:13 pm

Eshto, it is depressing how ignorant folk are of modern science, especially genetics.

I can kind of see how folk in Cicero's time might struggle to find natural explanations for a lot. And I can see why Darwin's material was difficult to accept in some areas in his day.

But the progress in genetics in the last 70 years is simply staggering - from discovering DNA to experiments where in order to conduct the experiment in the first place you have to create a genetically modified fruit fly who can only remember stuff when you warm it up.

I sometimes see some of the religious discussions about evolution, and it is if someone is still arguing that a train going faster than 30 miles an hour will cause the occupants to suffocate, whilst traveling on the space shuttle.

There are none so blind as those who will not see.

Other Comments by Simonw

5. Comment #212086 by Gregg Townsend on July 16, 2008 at 3:27 pm

 avatarI sometimes cringe when watching a lecture by Prof. Dawkins and he says, "Darwinian Natural Selection."

As a layman, I've found the issue to be clearer if I think of it as:

1) Evolution is a fact
2) The mechanism for evolution is the theory of Natural Selection for which there is overwhelming evidence.
3) Darwin is credited with being the first person to bring natural selection to the public.

I accept the evidence for all of the above but I am NOT a believer in Darwinism (whatever that is).

Other Comments by Gregg Townsend

6. Comment #212093 by riemann on July 16, 2008 at 3:36 pm

Wolbachia can have a number of effects, but one of the most common is to kill all a female's sons.

I don't wanna digress but, how is killing all sons evolutionarily stable? Surely they need some of the male insects to survive (and reproduce) in order not to go extinct along with their hosts. Unless the asymmetry of survival&reproduction between Wolbachia and its host is exceedingly large, i can't see how this would work. A little help?

Edit: Wikipedia suggests that Wolbachia induces thelytoky to its host and therefore by-passes males altogether. Well, i don't think it gets any more asymmetrical than that.. :))

Other Comments by riemann

7. Comment #212105 by Quine on July 16, 2008 at 3:56 pm

 avatarI have been advocating this for some time now. Yes, by all means, drop the "ism." Darwin would not want arguments about him, personally, to in any way stand in the path of the general public understanding of the facts of the world.

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8. Comment #212107 by shaunfletcher on July 16, 2008 at 4:00 pm

 avatarI think the article is interesting and thought-provoking.

However I believe that most use of the term 'Darwinian natural selection' by people such as Professor Dawkins is simply an attempt at ensuring clarity under some circumstances, by making it clear what form of natural selection is being discussed.

Other Comments by shaunfletcher

9. Comment #212126 by mordacious1 on July 16, 2008 at 4:22 pm

Gregg

Avatar's a crackup. Is that your reflection or clearmind's? Please Al, don't kick my ass. Funny!

[edit] Oh, never mind, I recognize Laurie now. Still very funny though.

Other Comments by mordacious1

10. Comment #212128 by Styrer- on July 16, 2008 at 4:28 pm

Yep. Quite right.

There is of course a naming balance to be struck between crediting the man behind the idea and the full-scale scientific endeavour growing out of his idea which he is unfortunately not alive to see.

But it's the religious fuckers who - I think knowingly and duplicitously - use the term 'Darwinism' to wink to the rest of their fellow sheep that evolution is an utter pile of shite.

Far better to linguistically keep it out of harm's way, as the buttoned-down fact that it is. 'Darwin's theory' should do quite nicely, when needs must.

The terms 'Darwinism' and 'Darwinian' were finally confirmed for me as very unhelpful when that utter cunt of a human being, David Robertson, mangled the two on this site to a bitter, twisted, theistically-grinning 'Darwinianism'.

Best,
Styrer

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11. Comment #212160 by Mango on July 16, 2008 at 6:03 pm

 avatarI agree with Stryer (comment 10) that conservative theists intentionally use "Darwinism" as a term to indicate that evolutionary theory has not made any progress since the 19th c. and it remains a quaint 19th c. explanation for the diversity of life.

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12. Comment #212161 by CrimsonRick on July 16, 2008 at 6:03 pm

I wasn't sure what the article was going to be about but I can definitely see where they're coming from.

I've really always called it Evolutionary Biology. I think the reason a lot of people may use the term "Darwinism" is that most people know what you're talking about right away (although it does bring up some negative connotations to religious people I'm sure). I think if you just said "evolutionary biology", unfortunately there would be a lot of blank stares.

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13. Comment #212173 by bskolar on July 16, 2008 at 6:42 pm

I agree with the comments made in this article. In fact, I've been thinking along these lines for quite some time. To those who are well-informed, I'm sure they know the difference between "Darwinism" (whatever that is) and evolutionary biology. But to those who are uninformed, they're the same thing. For example, I saw a segment on a talk show that airs on a Christian network that was about the rise of "New Atheism" (another term I'd like to see disappear.) At one point in this segment they referred to Darwin as "the founder of the theory of evolution". To many the theory of evolution begins and ends with Darwin. It is thought that any argument against Darwin discredits evolution. This needs to change.

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14. Comment #212175 by Cartomancer on July 16, 2008 at 6:53 pm

 avatarIt would be interesting to see some linguistic research on when and why the term "Darwinism" came into popular currency. I'm sure the lexicographers at the OED would be able to tell us. Was it simply the original term by which the Victorian scientific establishment knew evolutionary biology, or has it been championed by detractors of evolution for the reasons the above posters have outlined? And how have alternative terms fared?

Though, I must say, I actually encountered some lumpen theistic morons the other day who genuinely believed that evolution (indeed, the entire naturalistic world view) rested entirely on the authority of Charles Darwin. After making a fool of their fat, bearded ringleader with mention of natural selection ("you don't need intelligence to make complex organs like brains and hearts, millions of years of natural processes will do that anyway") his scruffy, ill-fed acolytes then challenged me to tell them all about "Darwinism". I indicated the Oxford skyline and pointed out several good bookshops that could help, so they triumphantly puffed up and made the ridiculous deathbed conversion claim. They actually thought that Darwin's say so was what made the theory true.

Of course, I pointed out to them that this was all nonsense originating with Charles's dopey sister and peddled by discredited creationist organisations, and that it mattered not one whit whether Darwin changed his mind because the evidence of the last 150 years is overwhelming. They changed tack after this and started screeching "but don't you want to be set free!" at the tops of their voices, whereupon a dustcart drove through the proceedings and I felt the time was right to make my exit. I left them with a cheap parting shot about how the appropriate authorities had now arrived to deal with their arguments.

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15. Comment #212188 by chuckgoecke on July 16, 2008 at 7:30 pm

 avatarI'm happy with "Darwinian" evolution or "Darwinism", just as I like Newtonian Mechanics and Einsteinian relativity. The adjective isn't meant to belittle all subsequent science that has happened in those fields, but to honor the first discoverer(pardon the redundency -undoubtedly sooner or later someone else would have made the discoveries).

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16. Comment #212189 by 35bluejacket on July 16, 2008 at 7:30 pm

Simonw

James Burke gave a quote from his history series. "If history has taught us anything, it is: those that think they are absolutely right, are absolutely blind"

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17. Comment #212192 by BigJohn on July 16, 2008 at 7:37 pm

 avatarI can't even imagine how excited ol' Chuckie would be to see the results of his li'l' idea today!

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18. Comment #212199 by catskill on July 16, 2008 at 7:49 pm

 avatarGreat article! Love the title! How many of our foolish foes must have begun to read it only to trail off quickly in disgust! Well written. Some good points.

Note - this comment fully compliant with catskillism

Other Comments by catskill

19. Comment #212207 by GoodLittleAtheist on July 16, 2008 at 8:07 pm

So they convince themselves that, being an ism, it can be refuted, argued against, outright rejected if they wish... without one ever realising that, far from being debatable, the essence of Darwinism, evolution by natural selection, is a fact, as RD once said, like a table being a table, and not anything else, is a fact.


I don't think so. Evolution is a fact. Evolution by natural selection is a theory.

I thought the 'Darwinian', ism, etc. tagged onto everything was just an historical artifact. They used to have to make it clear they were talking about Darwin's theory and not Lamarck's?

Other Comments by GoodLittleAtheist

20. Comment #212214 by Styrer- on July 16, 2008 at 8:23 pm

Comment #212188 by chuckgoecke on July 16, 2008 at 7:30 pm

Chuckgoecke

I have a great deal of sympathy for your view. I was, I think, one of the first on this site to find Sam Harris's condemnation of the word 'atheist' to be utterly ridiculous, in that it was simply a word which had been purloined by theists for their own dark purposes and against which we must put up a stand. It has always been, and remains, my idea that the word 'atheist' must be reclaimed from the would-be re-shaping theists of the word, in order to fuck them off completely.

To re-claim it is as our own, in other words, as a word whose etymological roots place the word clearly in the non-theistic camp.

'Dawinian' and 'Darwinism' are different, though. They are associated principally with a man, rather than first with a concept. We all here defer naturally to the latter meaning (with due respect granted here and there, of course, to the former), whereas theists cling to the former, by which reference to a bloke they seek to ridicule and reduce to nothing the whole evolutionary process.

I fear that, here, our language is proving a positive invitation to numbskull faithoholics seeking little more than ripping the piss out of Darwin and his ideas.

Removing his adjectivally-declined name now might prove the greatest assistance we can provide in guaranteeing his name an eternity beyond the reach of fucking theists.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

21. Comment #212220 by hopeful on July 16, 2008 at 8:48 pm

It isn't surprising that religious people attempt to portray Darwin as a prophet and his books as sacred texts.

Authority figures and sacred texts are an integral part of the religious perspective, and they are naturally going to try to find parallels in the world of science and atheism.

Sometimes it appears to be a tactic, but I tend to think that generally they just don't know any better and can't help themselves.

If aeronautical science was seen by believers as a world view incompatible with religion then they would be referring to us as "Wrightists".

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22. Comment #212223 by Laurie Fraser on July 16, 2008 at 8:56 pm

 avatarComment #212126 by mordacious1 on July 16,

Mord, Stop it! Nightmares are continuing.

Must...get...some...sleep.

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23. Comment #212227 by Christopher Davis on July 16, 2008 at 9:16 pm

 avatarI think that the constant use of the term "Darwinism" by the religious right works because it makes sense to the type of mind that can accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God.
For people like that, dogma is a way of life. Science is telling them that their dogma is flawed. So they want to see our dogma.

I've come to believe that thinking is a laborious endeavour for about 85% of the human race. Thinking is hard, they don't want to do it and can't imagine anybody that would. Therefore anyone who "believes in evolution" must be getting those beliefs from somewhere?

Along comes people like Ann Coulter (who knows exactly how full of shit she is) claiming that Darwin is our prophet and "Origin" is our inerrant text...WHAM! no thinking required. All evolutionary science has just been reduced to the level of something people "choose to believe".

It's actually a brilliant strategy.

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24. Comment #212230 by DalaiDrivel on July 16, 2008 at 9:23 pm

GoodLittleAtheist.

Oh, I think so. Without proving evolution by natural selection means we're left pretty much nowhere.

I must state first that I am not an expert in biology. Quite. :) However, I'll warrant that you don't need a century of thorough experimentation to prove plain old evolution. Everybody can accept evolution. Everybody understands evolution as a non-contextual concept and can name any non-biological example.

Put in short- everything evolves.

A fact. As you said.

Given my aforementioned limited understanding of biology in general, I nonetheless feel confident in saying that "Darwinism" (in its clearest sense) implies biological evolution, devoid of sociological interpretation.

What interests me is whether creotards would accept evolution by natural selection in humans if it occurred within the time frame of recorded history, say, for the sake of argument, from Bishop Usher's deduced date of 4004 B.C. or whatever.

Unfortunately, the reality revealed by experimentation has not permitted an answer to that particular question.

Fortunately, however, that leaves us somewhere rather than nowhere.

Other Comments by DalaiDrivel

25. Comment #212232 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 9:31 pm

So are you Newtonian or a Hamiltonian? Or, Heisenbergism and Schrodingerism turned out to be just different languages of saying the same thing and they were hence forth united and became Diracism,--boy this is a hard one.

Other Comments by Bonzai

26. Comment #212250 by Gordy on July 16, 2008 at 10:45 pm

 avatarPhew! The headline had me worried (especially as it came from the NY Times), but the text was a refreshing surprise.

I think the IDiots are determined to hang on to their Darwin references because it's easier to be seen to attack one man's ideas than to deny the long standing consensus of (almost) the entire scientific community.

Other Comments by Gordy

27. Comment #212323 by bugaboo on July 17, 2008 at 2:32 am

14. Comment #212175 by Cartomancer

I think perhaps the term has stuck because of other weasel expressions such as "ultra-Darwinist" or "Darwinian fundamentalism". Expressions employed and perpetuated by people (Gould, Lewontin, Rose et al) who were shit scared of the full explanatory power of the theory. As Darwin stated: psychology would have a new foundation.

Other Comments by bugaboo

28. Comment #212329 by Christopher Davis on July 17, 2008 at 2:44 am

 avatarbugaboo,

Good point. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.

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29. Comment #212348 by hungarianelephant on July 17, 2008 at 4:06 am

 avatarI enjoyed this article, but was slightly disappointed that it didn't mention our increased knowledge of the timescale of life.

Darwin acknowledged that he would need a few million years for his process to have worked. That was beyond the consensus view of the planet's age at the time, though the geologists had made some inroads and it was suspected that the earth was much older than had been thought. Of course it later turned out that life has been around for 3.8 billion years - ample time for evolution to have generated the present level of biodiversity several times over.

I think this concept of earth-time is beyond the (current) imagination of most people. It probably seems a long time until the schools go back in September, but their entire life is nothing in geological terms. If you stretched out your arms to represent the age of the earth, a single stroke of a nail file would remove the whole of human industrial history. This is one of the bigger stumbling blocks in the acceptance of evolution's explanatory power, as it gives apparent weight to the argument from personal incredulity.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

30. Comment #212378 by GoodLittleAtheist on July 17, 2008 at 5:59 am

Oh, I think so. Without proving evolution by natural selection means we're left pretty much nowhere.

I must state first that I am not an expert in biology. Quite. :) However, I'll warrant that you don't need a century of thorough experimentation to prove plain old evolution. Everybody can accept evolution. Everybody understands evolution as a non-contextual concept and can name any non-biological example.

Put in short- everything evolves.

A fact. As you said.

Given my aforementioned limited understanding of biology in general, I nonetheless feel confident in saying that "Darwinism" (in its clearest sense) implies biological evolution, devoid of sociological interpretation.


DalaiDrivel,

When I said, I don't know, I meant I didn't know if Dawkins said it the way you had paraphrased. I've never heard him say "Evolution by natural selection" is a fact. I also don't think that is correct. (I have heard him say Evolution is a fact and natural selection is theory that explains it.)

When I said Evolution is a fact, I meant biological evolution, not a watered down statement for anything changing. The traits in biological populations change over time. That has been observed in the fossil record and in genetic studies and is a fact, the same way that it is a fact that I am typing on a keyboard. Evolution by natural selection is a theory that explains how it works. It is a theory backed by tremendous evidence. Yes. It makes predictions that can be verified or falsified. Yes. But it could be falsified with new evidence tomorrow or a new theory could come along that explains what we observe better. I'm not holding my breath for that, but we should never dismiss the possibility.

Other Comments by GoodLittleAtheist

31. Comment #212387 by epeeist on July 17, 2008 at 6:33 am

 avatarComment #212232 by Bonzai on

So are you Newtonian or a Hamiltonian? Or, Heisenbergism and Schrodingerism turned out to be just different languages of saying the same thing and they were hence forth united and became Diracism
I can't decide which to go for, does that make me an indeterminist?

Other Comments by epeeist

32. Comment #212389 by nalfeshnee on July 17, 2008 at 6:43 am

Simonw wrote:


But the progress in genetics in the last 70 years is simply staggering - from discovering DNA to experiments where in order to conduct the experiment in the first place you have to create a genetically modified fruit fly who can only remember stuff when you warm it up.


I do hope you will give us a link for that - that just sounds so very cool :=)

Other Comments by nalfeshnee

33. Comment #212394 by BicycleRepairMan on July 17, 2008 at 6:54 am

 avatarYay for "The Ancestor's Tale" plug, I think it is Dawkins best book, and its a book that everyone (EVERYONE!) should take the time to read. It is amazing, and I'd love to see a "Cosmos"-like TV series about it :)

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34. Comment #212402 by Ian Bamlett on July 17, 2008 at 7:03 am

 avatarComment #212348 by hungarianelephant:


I think this concept of earth-time is beyond the (current) imagination of most people....This is one of the bigger stumbling blocks in the acceptance of evolution's explanatory power


Yes!

This is often overlooked and I don't think comes up often enough in discussions of evolution. It's something I have struggled with, and I find it hard to express to other people to when I, in my very amateurish way, try and do my bit for evolution education. The tactic I pursue is to try and get the person to think about an example of erosion they are personally familiar with. This could be anything in their local area they know. A cliff face, a rock formation, hell even some really old steps that have been worn by repeated use over many generations, (actually I think that's quite a good one). This gets them thinking about what is possible given enough time and gradual change. Then ask them to simply apply that thinking of change to biological systems and imagine how small changes over VERY long periods of time might change a biological entity. I know the analogy is not perfect. Weathering of a rock formation by wind over millions of years is not evolution, but the main point is to get them thinking about really long periods of time. I hope this makes sense - it is how I make sense of it in my own head anyway.

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35. Comment #212408 by bugaboo on July 17, 2008 at 7:14 am

32. Comment #212389 by nalfeshnee

Temperature sensitive mutations. Where the protein structure is changed (usually a single amino acid substitution) at normal physiological temperature and reverts to normal structure at different temperature.

From wiki under"mutation"
Conditional mutation is a mutation that has wild-type (or less severe) phenotype under certain "permissive" environmental conditions and a mutant phenotype under certain "restrictive" conditions. For example, a temperature-sensitive mutation can cause cell death at high temperature (restrictive condition), but might have no deleterious consequences at a lower temperature (permissive condition).

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36. Comment #212413 by SilentMike on July 17, 2008 at 7:24 am

A lot of people don't like the "isms". I can relate. I'm not to crazy about the "isms" either most of the time. But the truth is you can't really avoid them. When you want to define yourself or others and what you believe and what they believe, you always need words for the basic world views. Those words are always too general, the always neglect to address (warning. this is a wrong use of that word) important details and they are always necessary. You can't avoid generalizations. You just have to try and be as clear as possible about what you mean. Darwin had played an important role in the way science sees the evolution of species, it seems reasonable to name our view of evolution after him, even though we've made many discoveries since his time.

But even if we get rid of the term "Darwinism" in the light of this creationist attack (and perhaps we should. I don't know) then rest assured that other "isms" will follow and they will be more or less confusing to the same degree.

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37. Comment #212415 by Robert Maynard on July 17, 2008 at 7:25 am

 avatarJudson: Hey guys, let's get rid of the term Darwinism. I think it's continued use in our culture promotes a limited conception of what has really grown into a really expansive field of diverse research

Creationists: Yeah, I see your point. Okay, we'll stop using that term. Because we respect you.


Good luck with that. Seriously, this seems as dumb as the call a short while ago to just start calling evolution a law instead of a theory to shut up creationists. Yeah, that'll work. Awesome. Or not.

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38. Comment #212429 by David J on July 17, 2008 at 7:56 am

 avatarOne could probably bring back any "great thinker" from the past, show him/her his/her current movement, or what his/her movement has become, and said "great thinker" would cringe at the sight, find it unrecognizable, or want to make some immediate changes.

The truly amazing fact is that SO MUCH of what Darwin proposed, or even hypothesized, is still making the rounds, so to speak.

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39. Comment #212430 by Ian Bamlett on July 17, 2008 at 7:58 am

 avatarComment #212429 by David J:

One could probably bring back any "great thinker" from the past, show them their current movement, or what their movement has become, and said "great thinker" would cringe at the sight, find it unrecognizable, or want to make some immediate changes right away.


You mean like bringing back Jefferson and Paine and showing them the current USA. Something like that?

:-)

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40. Comment #212431 by David J on July 17, 2008 at 8:00 am

 avatarIan, I was going to go there, but didn't. Yeah, they would flip out for sure.

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41. Comment #212437 by Christopher Davis on July 17, 2008 at 8:08 am

 avatarDavid J,

If you brought back Mohammed he'd probably be quite pleased.

Of course you said "great thinker" so that example may not apply.

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42. Comment #212446 by David J on July 17, 2008 at 8:21 am

 avatarChristopher, I was actually also thinking that if there was a non-mystical non-miraculous historical Jesus, what would he think? I know my avatar is crass, and I don't give a damn about Christianity, but if there was a man Jesus, I'd like to think that he would be quite surprised and pissed off with what people have done for and with his name and cause. But then again, he might react much like you say Muhammed would have reacted...

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43. Comment #212448 by bugaboo on July 17, 2008 at 8:24 am

If you brought back Mohammed he'd probably be quite pleased.


But then he might say say "What's a sex offenders registry?"

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44. Comment #212488 by Border Collie on July 17, 2008 at 8:59 am

I don't see Darwin as being 'wrong' on anything. He simply did an astonishing job with what he had. It's always easy to judge the past with that 20/20 hindsight if that's what one chooses to do. A hundred fifty years from now, if we're not all a bunch of eastward-bowing rug-bumpers, there will be people saying that today's scientists were 'wrong'. The statement will be literally true ... so what? Today's scientists are doing the best they can with what they have.

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45. Comment #212495 by gcdavis on July 17, 2008 at 9:04 am

 avatarHow long before the description of the selfish gene becomes Dawkinism?

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46. Comment #212506 by temujin on July 17, 2008 at 9:16 am

 avatarI've been referring to ID types as godists for some minutes now...

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47. Comment #212565 by beelzebub on July 17, 2008 at 10:54 am

 avatarI totally agree with the articles sentiment - I always endeavour to refer to 'Evolutionary Biology' or 'Biological Evolution', rather than 'Darwinism' or 'Darwinian Evolution' for the same reasons as in the article. Using the word 'Darwinism''Dawinian''Darwin's' etc just elicits a Pavlovian response in Creationists and their fellow anti-knowledge buffoons. Let's keep 'Darwin' firmly in the history books.

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48. Comment #212631 by gr8hands on July 17, 2008 at 1:22 pm

Cartomancer, according to Merriam-Webster, Darwinism first appeared in language in 1864.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/darwinism
Main Entry:
DarΒ·winΒ·ism
Function:
noun
Date:
1864

1 : a theory of the origin and perpetuation of new species of animals and plants that offspring of a given organism vary, that natural selection favors the survival of some of these variations over others, that new species have arisen and may continue to arise by these processes, and that widely divergent groups of plants and animals have arisen from the same ancestors" compare evolution 4, neo-Darwinism

2 : a theory that inherent dynamic forces allow only the fittest persons or organizations to prosper in a competitive environment or situation " compare Social Darwinism


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49. Comment #212637 by DalaiDrivel on July 17, 2008 at 1:30 pm

GoodLittleAtheist

On reflection, I don't think I paraphrased Dawkins correctly, based on your response.

I also think your elucidation makes sense. It helped me see my error.

I did not in my earlier post make a distinction between biological evolution and the theory that explains how it works, as you put it.

A bit dense-headed and silly of me really!

Cheers!

Dawkins HAS said that he is a biologist that believes natural selection to be the primary driving force of biological evolution, as opposed to other factors such as genetic drift etc...

So, I concede then that we haven't proved natural selection, but merely, yet substantially so, enhanced its plausibility. Thinking to the future however, I wonder if we should ever be able to confirm a "Law of Natural Selection," and how.

No, we should not dismiss the possibility of its falsification.

At least evolution by natural selection is supported by enough evidence that it will not be a simple matter for anyone to legitimately dislodge it. And we're somewhere against the evidence-less fairy-believers as a result!

In the meantime, I'll bone up on my biology!

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50. Comment #212674 by Mitchell Gilks on July 17, 2008 at 2:23 pm

 avatarThis whole Darwinism buisness is just silly.

I don't know how many times I've been told that my "atheist bible" is "Darwin's: the theory of evolution". They could at least get my bible's title right.

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