Wednesday, July 16, 2008 | Reason : Wingnut News | print version

'Condoms won't change HIV rates'

by The Australian

Thanks to Michael Murray for the link.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24031610-12377,00.html

'Condoms won't change HIV rates'

A SOUTH African Catholic cardinal says the rampant HIV infection rate in Africa would not change if the church ordered its faithful to use condoms during sex.

Speaking on the SBS Dateline program tonight while visiting Sydney for World Youth Day, Cardinal Wilfrid Fox Napier said he had long been opposed to the use of condoms to prevent HIV.

When asked why the church had not instructed its followers to use condoms to slow the spread of HIV, he said such a call would make little difference.

Uganda had turned around an HIV prevalence rate of 29 per cent, reducing it to six per cent in 10 years, using a program that included abstinence for unmarried Ugandans, monogamy within couples and condoms issued only to married couples, he said.

But condom use in South Africa had not arrested the HIV infection rate, one of the highest in the world, Cardinal Napier said.

"The country with the highest distribution rate of condoms is South Africa, and the opposite result is happening," Cardinal Napier said.

"I don't think the death rate is because the people, they are not using the condom, and yet it's available.

"You expect that because people are hearing from bishops, `You must use a condom', that they will do what the bishops say?

"We have already been preaching all our lives, don't have sex outside of marriage."

The church had faith in the ability of people to control their own lives and avoid HIV infection, Cardinal Napier said.

"At the moment, if you go on a policy of condom distribution as the only solution to HIV and AIDS, you are telling people that they cannot take control of their own lives," he said.

"And, therefore, I think you are doing them an injustice by saying: `You are so stupid. Even though this disease is a killer, you cannot take control of your own lives'."

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1. Comment #212073 by Eshto on July 16, 2008 at 3:08 pm

So... he admits people don't listen to the Church, yet he still has faith in the Church's teachings on abstinence...

(sigh)

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2. Comment #212075 by Stephen Maxwell on July 16, 2008 at 3:10 pm

"At the moment, if you go on a policy of telling people that religion is the only solution to avoiding Hellfire, you are telling people that they cannot take control of their own lives," he said.

Other Comments by Stephen Maxwell

3. Comment #212080 by SPS on July 16, 2008 at 3:14 pm

On a related note:

Pathologists Believe They Have Pinpointed Achilles Heel Of HIV

Other Comments by SPS

4. Comment #212085 by Stormkahn on July 16, 2008 at 3:20 pm

Lies, Damn Lies and Religion - is this a case of findig the facts that support the conclusion?

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5. Comment #212092 by Corylus on July 16, 2008 at 3:35 pm

Uganda had turned around an HIV prevalence rate of 29 per cent, reducing it to six per cent in 10 years, using a program that included abstinence for unmarried Ugandans, monogamy within couples and condoms issued only to married couples, he said.

OKay... so those married men who are issued condoms only use them with their spouses. I see.

This naivity would be amusing - if he weren't playing with people's lives, and their children's.

"The country with the highest distribution rate of condoms is South Africa, and the opposite result is happening," Cardinal Napier said.

"I don't think the death rate is because the people, they are not using the condom, and yet it's available.

The situation is not helped in SA by politicians lauding the curative powers of beetroot.

Other Comments by Corylus

6. Comment #212103 by black wolf on July 16, 2008 at 3:54 pm

As a detailed report on the Ugandan policies I read a few hours ago states:
"The second phase of the Ugandan HIV epidemic ran from 1992 to 2000. During this period the HIV prevalence fell dramatically, from a peak in 1991 of around 15% among all adults, and over 30% among pregnant women in the cities7, to around 5% in 20018.

It is thought that the government's ABC prevention campaign was partly responsible for the decline in prevalence. However, as treatment was not widely available in Uganda during this time the high numbers of AIDS-related deaths also contributed to the reduction in the number of people living with HIV."

"Many experts have also speculated that Uganda's shift in prevention policy away from ABC towards US-backed abstinence-only programmes may also be responsible for an increase in risky behaviour, as comprehensive sex education and condom promotion are no longer mainstream."
"The approach used in Uganda has been named the ABC approach - firstly, encouraging sexual Abstinence until marriage; secondly, advising those who are sexually active to Be faithful to one partner; and finally, urging Condom use, especially for those who have more than one sexual partner."
http://www.avert.org/aidsuganda.htm
In saying that condoms were only issued to married couples, the Cardinal is lying (I don't think he can be so misinformed). As the report states, condoms were given to anyone in need as long as they were available.

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7. Comment #212106 by Shuggy on July 16, 2008 at 3:57 pm

Maybe it did include those, but the bit that worked was "zero grazing" - one partner at a time, rather than multiple boy/girlfriends. The importance of this is that the virus is most virulent soon after transmission, so putting a gap between partners reduces transmission. Sadly, the programme was abandonded and HIV rates are rising again. (see http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17963 )

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8. Comment #212117 by Faithhead on July 16, 2008 at 4:16 pm

How much blood must they have on their hands. How much more obvious must Science make it for them. A freind of mine uses the term and at time I am close to agreeing with him, he says "its nothing short of passive genocide". They trust their spiritual leader, believe them and follow them. They have no idea the evil being inflicted by such disgusting Dogma.

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9. Comment #212118 by Jenny Taylier on July 16, 2008 at 4:17 pm

Surely the cardinal has seen the distressing news footage of bewildered young children, bereft of their parents, left to fend for themselves as AIDS rips these families apart? There is a huge body of evidence that shows condoms are effective in preventing the spread of AIDS. Does he not think that perhaps, just once, it might be worth believing the scientific evidence rather than views that support his belief?

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10. Comment #212119 by Inferno on July 16, 2008 at 4:18 pm

I hate this. People will listen to those false statistics spat out by the cardinal and think they're right. Absolutely digusting. Did Dateline correct them? Or hopefully will correct them next week?

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11. Comment #212125 by Chris Davis on July 16, 2008 at 4:22 pm

Riiiight... so the virus gets through the barrier by quantum tunnelling, presumably.

CD

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12. Comment #212131 by mordacious1 on July 16, 2008 at 4:30 pm

This is the first guy I'd turn to for anything that has to do with science or medicine. Why bother with scientists or doctors? Yup, Im dat stoopid.

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13. Comment #212133 by mordacious1 on July 16, 2008 at 4:40 pm

Actually, I worried about this when I was single and not monogamous. I had to stretch the damn things so much to get them on, that I thought they had to become porous eventually.

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14. Comment #212148 by thewhitepearl on July 16, 2008 at 5:18 pm

Mordy,

You HAD to go there didnt you....

"You expect that because people are hearing from bishops, `You must use a condom', that they will do what the bishops say?

oh oh wait for it...

"We have already been preaching all our lives, don't have sex outside of marriage."

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15. Comment #212151 by mordacious1 on July 16, 2008 at 5:25 pm

Oh, and you had to be the first to reply to it. I hesitated in posting that, but...you know how I can't help myself sometimes.

[edit] I was trying to make a point, in my own warped way.

Other Comments by mordacious1

16. Comment #212159 by Al420 on July 16, 2008 at 6:03 pm

I guess it makes some since if you really, truly believe that the people who you are sentencing to death will have everlasting euphoria after the fact. But does that make it any less despicable?

Also, Abstinence-only sex ed?!?
Either teach our children safe sex, or don't. Don't just tell them not to fuck because it makes god cry.

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17. Comment #212169 by Bonzai on July 16, 2008 at 6:31 pm

In context the SA government doesn't even believe HIV causes AIDs and that apparently has nothing to do with religion, just bad science and conspiracy theory.

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18. Comment #212176 by randumbness47 on July 16, 2008 at 6:57 pm

"We have already been preaching all our lives..."

What is that 'v' doing there?

Seriously, AIDS has a friend in the Catholic church. I bet they'll even oppose a cure if we ever find it. Without the threat of STI's, people will become more permiscuous! We must ban the cure! Yup, I can see them taking that route.

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19. Comment #212177 by Cartomancer on July 16, 2008 at 7:04 pm

I don't think the death rate is because the people, they are not using the condom, and yet it's available.

Do we have to pay the catholic church extra to have the grammar of this sentence reinstated, or is it available to download for free at The Australian's website?

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20. Comment #212193 by qomak on July 16, 2008 at 7:38 pm

Fuck Cardinal Wilfrid Fox Napier.

Such an ignorant scumbag should not appear on any decently run TV station, at least not when on seriously challenges his bullshit and exposes his lies.

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21. Comment #212195 by Daniella on July 16, 2008 at 7:39 pm

Oh the Hypocrisy!
"We won't give you condoms to prevent HIV because that would be controlling your life..so instead we will give you no choice except to let us control your lives". Right...
When HIV/AIDS was identified in humans, in the developing countries we get doctors and scientist educating us on the risks, safe sex and condom campaigns and as a result managed to curtail the spread of HIV/AIDS significantly.
And what do they get in the developing world? - priests and missionaries preaching "Don't have sex". And the wondrous results this produced? An ever increasing infected population, orphaned children and a disease shrouded in myth and superstition (to name but a few). The top ten HIV/AIDS prevalent countries in the world are all located in Africa where most of this abstinence propaganda takes place, obviously it's useless, yet it is still being allowed to continue.
Faithhead your friend is absolutely right, this is passive genocide. But we can rest assured that it's not just the church that is guilty of this. Governments have a big hand in this as well. Some countries (Australia and America for example) have signed agreements that they will only provide foreign aid to charities that support the church and their abstinence notion (as well as "pro-life" etc) hereby increasing funding for these worthless causes and obstructing any chance these people have of obtaining any real information and health care.
This issue really makes my blood boil and if I was that interviewer on Dateline it would have taken all of my resolve not to punch him in the face.

Other Comments by Daniella

22. Comment #212201 by Lightnin on July 16, 2008 at 7:54 pm

"At the moment, if you go on a policy of condom distribution as the only solution to HIV and AIDS..."

(bold added)

Fuck you, you fucking fucker, do you have a piece of Jarlsberg where your brain should be? Can you say 'straw man'? Safe sex education doesn't mean only talking about prophylactics, it's possible to encourage individuals to abstain from sex or be faithful to one partner, and talk about safe sex.

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23. Comment #212205 by chuckgoecke on July 16, 2008 at 8:03 pm

Guys, and Gals, this is REALLY Big:

3. Comment #212080 by SPS on July 16, 2008 at 3:14 pm
On a related note:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715165520.htm

Other Comments by chuckgoecke

24. Comment #212221 by Christopher Davis on July 16, 2008 at 8:50 pm

Well that's one way of representing the Catholic Church's take on condom use...of course I'd prefer if they represented their position HONESTLY! Such as...

We don't want you to have condoms, because that would allow you to have sex outside of marriage without getting AIDS. Since AIDS is the punishment that my all-loving, all-forgiving, sky-daddy has proscribed for the awful sin of fornication, we don't want you thwarting our all-powerful father's divine will with a latex sheath.

There, I think that's better.

edit: I have no idea why this post is in bold.

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25. Comment #212231 by Shuggy on July 16, 2008 at 9:31 pm

It's in bold because the person above you didn't close his bolding.

Well, I tried. I used /b and /em in angle brackets. Any other ideas?

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26. Comment #212238 by Atheist_from_Hell on July 16, 2008 at 9:52 pm

Let's see if /bold in angle brackets works.

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27. Comment #212239 by Atheist_from_Hell on July 16, 2008 at 9:54 pm

/strong in angle brackets.

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28. Comment #212240 by Atheist_from_Hell on July 16, 2008 at 9:56 pm

Let's see if this worked.

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29. Comment #212246 by Roland_F on July 16, 2008 at 10:31 pm

The situation is not helped in SA by politicians lauding the curative powers of beetroot.

I thought populations of most African countries believe that sex with a very young virgin is curing HIV ?

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30. Comment #212253 by militant_agnostic on July 16, 2008 at 10:53 pm

No it didn't.

Video of the exciting interview
http://video.sbs.com.au/player/news/index.php?mmid=13844&chid=13
it only gets onto the HIV issue about halfway through

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31. Comment #212260 by ghost of numf-el on July 16, 2008 at 11:29 pm

Where's irate_atheist when you need a good 'fucktard' thrown into the conversation?

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32. Comment #212279 by Harko on July 17, 2008 at 12:59 am

This is the same Catholic Church that made the "scientific" claim that while condoms were good for birth control, they were useless for protecting against HIV.

The reason? The HIV virus is small, so it can get through the holes in the rubber while the larger sperm can't! No doubt a large percentage of those Africans told this might believe it too :-(

An experiment to try: fill a condom with water. Does it escape through the "holes" in the rubber? Is the water molecule smaller or larger than sperm?

I like the "passive genocide" phrase used above!

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33. Comment #212280 by RussC on July 17, 2008 at 1:05 am

Guys, and Gals, this is REALLY Big:

3. Comment #212080 by SPS on July 16, 2008 at 3:14 pm
On a related note:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080715165520.htm

Totally agree chuckgoecke, much more interesting than the ramblings of some religious apologist.

SPS, that article is a great find. Looks like science may be on the path to an HIV vaccine. Just a shame the words "Holy Grail" appear in the article, but that's a standard lazy writer thing I guess :-)

Everyone should visit the link in comment #3

Russ

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34. Comment #212306 by WilliamP on July 17, 2008 at 2:09 am

Just the sort of nonsense you would expect from a man who spends his time whispering to an invisible man in the sky, drinking blood, and seeking salvation from a carpenter who died 2000 years ago.

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35. Comment #212368 by Stephen Maxwell on July 17, 2008 at 5:08 am

This is the same Catholic Church that made the "scientific" claim that while condoms were good for birth control, they were useless for protecting against HIV.

The reason? The HIV virus is small, so it can get through the holes in the rubber while the larger sperm can't! No doubt a large percentage of those Africans told this might believe it too :-(

I was also told this at school, and I'm in SCOTLAND!

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36. Comment #212369 by irate_atheist on July 17, 2008 at 5:12 am

31. Comment #212260 by ghost of numf-el -

Where's irate_atheist when you need a good 'fucktard' thrown into the conversation?

I was contemplating the combination of David Gower and drive-by battings.

Oh, by the way, this Cardinal's a fucktard.

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37. Comment #212371 by irate_atheist on July 17, 2008 at 5:17 am

18. Comment #212176 by randumbness47 -

Seriously, AIDS has a friend in the Catholic church. I bet they'll even oppose a cure if we ever find it. Without the threat of STI's, people will become more permiscuous! We must ban the cure!

This is already the case:

http://www.christiantoday.com/article/catholic.church.warns.new.vaccine.may.increase.underage.sex/4592.htm

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2007/09/18/hpv-halton.html

Never underestimate these scum.

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38. Comment #212376 by Ishruul on July 17, 2008 at 5:53 am

Funny thing there, a majority of africans beleive fucking a virgin (underage mostly recommended) will cure you of aids!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HIV_and_AIDS_misconceptions

And...wait a minute...catholic priest in Africa (and the rest of the world)also have been knowned to fuck young ones! Hmmm...Guess the church there didn't indoctrinated the right message, you know: love has I loved you! ---well, something similar---

Religion is like the punchline of a fisting contest. Hard to get in, pointless and hearder to get out of you!

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39. Comment #212380 by alexmzk on July 17, 2008 at 6:00 am

A SOUTH African Catholic cardinal says the rampant HIV infection rate in Africa would not change if the church ordered its faithful to use condoms during sex.

this is where his thinking goes wrong. he seems to be suffering under a dichotomy where the church either does nothing, or bosses people around. provide condoms, and don't forbid people to use them. no ordering people around, no unnecessary further demeaning of people.

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40. Comment #212382 by Ishruul on July 17, 2008 at 6:08 am

Sorry Alexmzk to rectify you,

But you seem quite deluded on one important fact, and your opinion is pure nonsense!

The Church thinking CAN'T GO WRONG. Cause there is no church thinking.

p.s. Just kidding with you ;)

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41. Comment #212499 by Border Collie on July 17, 2008 at 9:06 am

Preaching abstinence to humans has worked so well over the past hundreds of years. I'm sure that aids will disappear shortly in Africa.

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42. Comment #212580 by Valis667 on July 17, 2008 at 11:30 am

Oh, this is nothing, our presumptive next president, Jacob Zuma, stated that taking a shower after sex prevents AIDS. Our current president believes HIV does not cause AIDS. Our Minister of Health believes that eating beetroot and garlic cures AIDS (this from someone that had to have a liver transplant because of being an alcoholic). And to make it even better, we have two withdoctors who are Members of Parliament!

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43. Comment #212585 by Notcrowingbutyawning on July 17, 2008 at 11:43 am

Wonder what sort of results mandatory AIDs testing of Catholic bishops would yield? I'd certainly be happy to help fund that kind of investigation :O)

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44. Comment #212625 by MC1R on July 17, 2008 at 1:07 pm

Ok! And I have come up with a fool proof solution to radically reduce pedestrian road traffic deaths. It's beautiful in its simplicity, wait for it......DON'T CROSS THE ROAD. Amazing you must agree, however I do need to iron out a few niggles in the theory such as cars mounting the pavement (sidewalk for our American friends). OH OH I know! Don't leave the house, brilliant! I'm a fecking genius.

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45. Comment #212665 by Auraboy on July 17, 2008 at 2:14 pm

To quote the Popester today -

"Our world has grown weary of greed, exploitation and division, of the tedium of false idols and piecemeal responses, and the pain of false promises,"

Really? Greed, exploitation and division fuelled by the tedium of a false idol with false promises? Well I guess you should know sir.

"I ask myself, could anyone standing face to face with people who actually do suffer violence and sexual exploitation explain that these tragedies, portrayed in virtual form, are considered merely entertainment?"

Er, yes. The major problem with sexual exploitation is an episode of CSI dealing with child abuse...Right. It's not entertainment dammit, child rape is...well...tradition!

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46. Comment #212677 by Wosret on July 17, 2008 at 2:32 pm

I can think of some colourful words to describe this comtemptible individual, but I will reframe.

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47. Comment #212680 by Sciros on July 17, 2008 at 2:41 pm

*refrain

I'm not as big on name-calling when it comes to insults, as I am on using metaphors and generally hurtful statements. Like "you exhibit the intellectual capacity of a June beetle," or how about "I shit on the graves of your relatives." I mean the former one is pretty lame and the latter is almost always uncalled-for, but hey!

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48. Comment #212733 by Wosret on July 17, 2008 at 3:26 pm

Don't correct me! I'm putting the words in a different frame. That is totally what I meant!

Seriously though, if you plan on correcting my spelling mistakes, prepare yourself for a full-time job.

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49. Comment #212742 by Jesus was a zombie on July 17, 2008 at 3:33 pm

I think the Catholic church has realised that no matter how much the evidence is in favor of condom use (and there has been enough evidence for years...) admitting that condom use can save lives means admitting to the "passive genocide" (i think this is a very apt phrase!) that they have played a huge part in.

That wouldn't be very good for the image would it?

Unless of course they tell their congregations that those who die because they refuse to use a condom are "martyrs" who have gone to heaven. (I watched a program in R.E about the AIDs crisis in Africa and listening to catholic preists spout this shit made my stomach flip)

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50. Comment #212767 by Wosret on July 17, 2008 at 3:48 pm

49. Comment #212742 by Jesus was a zombie

I don't think that "passive genocide" is apt. If I tell you that if you jump of a building, you'll be just fine, so you jump of a building and die. That wasn't me being passive, I'm largely, if not entirely responsible.

Teaching the sinfulness of, and lies about, condoms, in a place where using them would save lives is not passively letting people not use condoms. It is actively campaigning to have people risk their lives, and often kill themselves.

At best, it's indirect genocide.

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