Friday, July 18, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

Texas State Board of Education approves Bible course for high schools

by Dallas News

Thanks to aflacgirl84 for the link.

http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/dn/latestnews/stories/071908dntexbibleclass.6a4f4f07.html

Texas State Board of Education approves Bible course for high schools

AUSTIN — The State Board of Education on Friday gave final approval to a rule establishing an elective Bible course for high schools, but the panel rejected the arguments of some members and key lawmakers — and left it up to local school districts to design the classes.

Board members approved the new class to be offered in high schools beginning this fall although state officials are still awaiting an opinion from the attorney general on whether the state law authorizing the course requires all school districts to make it available to students.

Among those who urged the board to issue specific guidelines for the class was Rep. Scott Hochberg, D-Houston, who helped write the 2007 law. Mr. Hochberg warned that without specific guidance from the state, some schools would run afoul of the First Amendment requirement of religious neutrality for such classes.

"Let's go forward and do this right and not let the lawyers tell us what we have to do," Mr. Hochberg asked the board, citing the possibility of lawsuits if all school districts design their own courses.

"My interest is keeping the focus on teaching kids and spending less money on lawsuits."

His position was backed by other members of the House Public Education Committee, which drafted the law.

But a majority of board members, including all seven aligned with social conservatives, said they preferred to adopt a general rule now and not get into the specifics of what will be taught in the classes.

"It's better for us to go ahead and do something now," said board member Cynthia Dunbar, R-Richmond. "We have met the requirements of the legislation. We don't want to stifle what they (school districts) are doing in classrooms."

The rule was adopted on a 10-5 vote, which allows the course to be put in place in high schools for the 2008-09 school year. If there had been less than a two-thirds vote, the course would have been delayed until the fall of 2009.

Attorney General Greg Abbott has told the board that while the state standards for the Bible class appear to be in compliance with the First Amendment, his office can't guarantee that the courses taught in high schools will be constitutional because they haven't been reviewed.

Critics contend that the board standards for the course are so vague and general that many schools might unknowingly create unconstitutional Bible classes that either promote the religious views of teachers or disparage the religious beliefs of some students.

Earlier this year, the Ector County school board agreed to quit using a Bible course curriculum at two high schools in Odessa that the American Civil Liberties Union said promoted Protestant religious beliefs not shared by Jews, Catholics, Orthodox Christians and many Protestants.

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1. Comment #213522 by Ian Bamlett on July 18, 2008 at 2:19 pm

If it's elective why not. Let 'em have this one.

It's not like kids who would go to an elective bible class aren't getting it rammed down their throats at Sunday school anyway.

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

2. Comment #213523 by Ascaphus on July 18, 2008 at 2:22 pm

I can't wait to see the disclaimer they'll be forced to put into the textbook. :)

Matt

Other Comments by Ascaphus

3. Comment #213528 by padster1976 on July 18, 2008 at 2:24 pm

The perception is that america is really going back in time - 16th Century here we come!

Shittsville!!

Other Comments by padster1976

4. Comment #213530 by TIKI AL on July 18, 2008 at 2:28 pm

OK, but the classes must be taught by an impartial teacher who registers at least a 6.9-infinity on the Dawkins scale.

Other Comments by TIKI AL

5. Comment #213531 by Apathy personified on July 18, 2008 at 2:28 pm

Ian,
I wonder what would happen if the bible class was taught with the 'wrong' interpretation - say if it's given the pentecostal treatment, when half the kids in the class are from baptist families?

What sort of legal issues does that raise?

Other Comments by Apathy personified

6. Comment #213532 by mdowe on July 18, 2008 at 2:30 pm

Now we just need some Texas teachers with solid science or philosophical backgrounds to come fourth and teach these classes. Maybe the kids could learn how to apply some critical thinking to religious claims as a result.

(N.B. -- Perhaps the kids could also get a better appreciation of the Bible as literature, and its role in history and the development of Western culture!)

Other Comments by mdowe

7. Comment #213537 by robotaholic on July 18, 2008 at 2:32 pm

this is soooooooo stupid

I objectively don't see how they can omit other religious books like the torah or the koran from being available (just for fairness)

many schools might unknowingly create unconstitutional Bible classes that either promote the religious views of teachers or disparage the religious beliefs of some students

-This is going to be a disaster I think

Other Comments by robotaholic

8. Comment #213538 by Sophie on July 18, 2008 at 2:34 pm

Apathy,

Yeah, I agree. What if there is one mormon sitting in with those students as well? LOL

Other Comments by Sophie

9. Comment #213540 by Mark Smith on July 18, 2008 at 2:35 pm

I am all for education about the Bible (as long is that is what actually happens). All things being equal, the more somebody learns about the Bible the more opportunity they have to realise what a very human, fallible product it is.

Other Comments by Mark Smith

10. Comment #213546 by Sciros on July 18, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Bible study, now for grades!

Other Comments by Sciros

11. Comment #213547 by Mango on July 18, 2008 at 2:40 pm

This will only end badly for Texas, in court.

Other Comments by Mango

12. Comment #213550 by TIKI AL on July 18, 2008 at 2:44 pm

Will there be comparisons to other factually accurate books such as "Pinnochio" and "Jack and the Bean Stalk"?

Other Comments by TIKI AL

13. Comment #213551 by Apathy personified on July 18, 2008 at 2:46 pm

Sophie,

What if there is one mormon sitting in with those students as well?

Ha - I guess the magic underpants would certainly get in a twist.
They could well be opening a Pandora's box here.

Other Comments by Apathy personified

14. Comment #213552 by Stormkahn on July 18, 2008 at 2:46 pm

WTF is a Bible course?

a) Religous Education about all faiths
b) Being taught about the bible
c) Being indoctrinated with the bible
d) DIY religous texts for beginners

and for bonus points can we have Pastafarianism?

Other Comments by Stormkahn

15. Comment #213554 by cerad on July 18, 2008 at 2:49 pm

Some folks insist that atheism is a religion. So lets see them come up with a bible study class that doesn't disparage the views of an atheist student.

Other Comments by cerad

16. Comment #213557 by Frankus1122 on July 18, 2008 at 2:55 pm

Comment #213552 by Stormkahn

and for bonus points can we have Pastafarianism?

I say go for full blown Rastafarianism.
Spliff Rolling 101

Other Comments by Frankus1122

17. Comment #213559 by thewhitepearl on July 18, 2008 at 2:57 pm

I don't mind an elective being taught about religion in highschool..But the problem I have with this is, they are only offering a BIBLE class..

This is just a ticking time bomb. I need a paper bag to breathe into..

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

18. Comment #213560 by foolish sea otter on July 18, 2008 at 2:58 pm

Frankus1122,

Ugh, not with the stuff smuggled into Texas.

Other Comments by foolish sea otter

19. Comment #213567 by TIKI AL on July 18, 2008 at 3:12 pm

"This is just a ticking time bomb. I need a paper bag to breathe into.." (#17,twp)

...speaking of time bombs, breathing into a paper bag after drinking vodka can be very illuminating.

Other Comments by TIKI AL

20. Comment #213569 by Border Collie on July 18, 2008 at 3:15 pm

'many schools might unknowingly create unconstitutional Bible classes that promote ... disparage, etc.' 'Might' my ass. 'Unknowingly' my ass. 'Unconstitutional' yes. 'Promote' certainly. 'Disparage' for sure. TWP ... the bomb has gone off ... it's just not real loud yet. Being a Texan, this makes me sick. There's a good interview on Fox today about this with Barry Lynn and some wing nut. Like there aren't enough churches and church schools in Texas to teach Bible stuff ... Oh, well, just another nail in the coffin of Texas education which had already gone to hell in a handbasket.

Other Comments by Border Collie

21. Comment #213571 by SimUser on July 18, 2008 at 3:16 pm

Best way to counter this is to argue that they need to allow all religions to be taught in equal measure, so first we will teach about Bael, then Wotan, then Thor, then any number, and some time we will get to your Christian God.

Other Comments by SimUser

22. Comment #213572 by sidelined on July 18, 2008 at 3:16 pm

I do fail to see how, having here set precedent,they will be able to prevent the teaching{as an elective} of The Koran,Torah,Tibetan Book of the Dead etc..

For that matter why would there not be a case made for the introduction of new age codswallop as well.
Yaaaaay... Texas! Remember to be careful what you wish for.

Other Comments by sidelined

23. Comment #213573 by Mark Smith on July 18, 2008 at 3:18 pm

The Bible is just a collection of words. If there is a danger in having lessons about it, then it is surely a fault of the American education system, not a fault of the proposed subject. Can't you trust American teachers to teach properly?

Other Comments by Mark Smith

24. Comment #213574 by wiz220 on July 18, 2008 at 3:22 pm

TEACH THE CONTROVERSY!!! Richard should be a required guest speaker in all of these classes to point out the "gaps" in religious "theory"!

Other Comments by wiz220

25. Comment #213575 by Border Collie on July 18, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Pardon me while I play devil's advocate for education for a moment. My feeling, and this is just me, is that the public schools in Texas should actually teach subject's like math, English, reading, science, geography, history ... you know. I mean, have the kids able to read on at least a sixth grade level by the time they graduate from high school, maybe have the skills to balance a checkbook, know that astronomy is science, astrology isn't, be able to find Texas on a map of the US and be able to find the US on a world map, know that Shakesphere actually existed and maybe know that there is such a thing as history. I know this is a radical idea but a guy has to start somewhere. Lastly, can we please postpone the Bible stuff until college or never and just keep it trapped at church and church schools until then?

Other Comments by Border Collie

26. Comment #213577 by Ascaphus on July 18, 2008 at 3:31 pm

#23 by Mark: Can't we trust the teachers? I'd like to think so too, but then I just discovered that we have a creationist scuttling the science classes right here where I live. Talk to a teacher and they'll tell you that they don't design their own curriculum, it's all handed down by the state... It's just not a simple problem.

But I just had a brainstorm! Bush has been pushing his "faith-based" initiative to have churches accept federal money for programs, and Obama is threatening to keep it up. Now the schools want to teach bible classes. Well, if the faith community wants to help the overburdened schools, they can move the new bible classes to the churches, and the government will now pay them to 'study' the bible! It's perfect. I'll go write to my congressman now.

Matt

Other Comments by Ascaphus

27. Comment #213578 by MorituriMax on July 18, 2008 at 3:37 pm

Prince should remake his song then at the meeting where they set the final guidelines for the courses, he can belt out..

"We're gonna PARTY like it's 1399!"

Other Comments by MorituriMax

28. Comment #213579 by Quine on July 18, 2008 at 3:40 pm

Bible study is a good thing. They should study who wrote it, who rewrote it, the interpolations, the translation errors, the copy errors, the process of choosing which books would be in v. out, etc.

Other Comments by Quine

29. Comment #213580 by thewhitepearl on July 18, 2008 at 3:42 pm

speaking of time bombs, breathing into a paper bag after drinking vodka can be very illuminating.

cute...reeaaaaal cute..

:)

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

30. Comment #213581 by TIKI AL on July 18, 2008 at 3:42 pm

Can't wait for the first 14th amendment lawsuit to render the schoolboard unemployed and bankrupt the town when it is discovered that there is no "Children's Book of Kwanzaa" study class.

Other Comments by TIKI AL

31. Comment #213583 by Radesq on July 18, 2008 at 3:52 pm

Quine is correct (no big surprise there) teaching the Bible class should include all the foibles and inherent contradictions. My high school had a Bible as literature class all those years ago. Taught by a former nun. I'd like to tell you about the class but I dropped it the first week...boring as watching ice melt.

Other Comments by Radesq

32. Comment #213584 by black wolf on July 18, 2008 at 3:52 pm

Ascaphus,
I hope you can do something about that creationist science teacher.
About the Bible studies:
teacher: Hello students, my name is Mr. Janovich, and I'm going to teach this class.
student: I'm really interested in the Bible from a Buddhist standpoint, so when are we going to discuss comparisons between the Golden Rule in the Bible and Buddhist teachings?
teacher: Umm, we're not going to do that, this is Bible study only.
student: Ok, my family's going to sue. Bye.
teacher: *sigh*. Well, we'll see. Now, the rest of you, please open the New International Version Bible I handed out on page...
student: This isn't the King James? Only the King James has the literal true word of God. I'm suing. Bye.
teacher: *harumph* Dang. Sorry. Anyway, let's start with the Sermon on the Mount class...
student: whoa wait a minute, shouldn't we be discussing Jesus' childhood first?
teacher: uh, ok, we can do that. Do you want to start with Jesus' birth?
student: nah, we know the Christmas story. I want to learn about how Jesus killed that boy who bothered him.
teacher: what? what boy? oh, you mean the apocryphal story of...
student: I don't know what apocryphal means, but it's in the Bible we use at home. We're Nosticks, my parents say.
teacher: But that's not really in the real Bible...
student: Wow, you're some bigot. I'm suing.
teacher: *headdesk* ok, Tom, since you're the only one left, why don't we go have some ice cream?
student: ...ummm, you're Catholic right?... I need to go now.

Other Comments by black wolf

33. Comment #213585 by Mark Smith on July 18, 2008 at 3:53 pm

Border Collie

My feeling, and this is just me, is that the public schools in Texas should actually teach subject's like math, English, reading, science, geography, history ... Lastly, can we please postpone the Bible stuff until college or never and just keep it trapped at church and church schools until then?

I see what you are saying. Math etc are important. But as I see it, Christianity, and thereby the Bible, is extremely important in America. Far more so than Shakespeare. So wouldn't it be good for kids to learn real facts etc about the Bible? In my opinion, the more you know about the Bible (and indeed about the difficulties of interpretation etc) the more difficult it is to be confident of the religions that are based on it.

Ascaphus
I appreciate there may be fundametalists who use 'Bible class' as a way to promote their views, but won't there be other teachers (hopefully a majority) who are reasonable in the true sense of the word?

Other Comments by Mark Smith

34. Comment #213587 by Star Spangled Eagle on July 18, 2008 at 3:56 pm

Hey Texas:

If other religious books are not being taught as
electives, why not? I'd like you to answer that one for me.

I love the idea of comparative religion to be taught in high school, why should only one "holy book" course be available to students? I thought we're trying to expand young people's minds...

Other Comments by Star Spangled Eagle

35. Comment #213596 by Broshiesq on July 18, 2008 at 4:19 pm

MorituriMax: Prince should remake his song then at the meeting where they set the final guidelines for the courses, he can belt out..

"We're gonna PARTY like it's 1399!"

That's hilarious.

Ascaphus: But I just had a brainstorm! Bush has been pushing his "faith-based" initiative to have churches accept federal money for programs, and Obama is threatening to keep it up.

From what I've read, Obama has been promising to Expand them.

Mark Smith: The Bible is just a collection of words. If there is a danger in having lessons about it, then it is surely a fault of the American education system, not a fault of the proposed subject. Can't you trust American teachers to teach properly?

Ummmm, no. Are you really that naive?
At least the students wouldn't have to study for the tests, just pray for a good grade.

Other Comments by Broshiesq

36. Comment #213604 by Mark Smith on July 18, 2008 at 4:32 pm

Broshiesq

Ummmm, no. Are you really that naive?
At least the students wouldn't have to study for the tests, just pray for a good grade.

I'm not naive. I asked a question. I live in the UK and here I do still trust teachers on the whole to teach in an (at least relatively) unbiased way. But perhaps you think things are different in America.

Other Comments by Mark Smith

37. Comment #213609 by Jesus was a zombie on July 18, 2008 at 4:41 pm

I think this all pretty much hangs on the teacher. I was made to take a GCSE course in religion (which mainly consisted of bible studies at my school). Fortunatly we had a really amazing R.E teacher who basically spent most of the time dredging through the worst bits of the old testament with us and disscusing its somewhat dubious origins so that we could see for ourselves how fallible a text it is.
It actually turned out to be the catalyst for me with regards to rejecting religion, because it was the first time in my life I had actually sat down and scrutinized a "holy" book.
I know however if i had had a christian fundamentalist for a teacher that would have been a total different matter.

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38. Comment #213612 by Mark Smith on July 18, 2008 at 4:51 pm

I think this all pretty much hangs on the teacher.

Absolutely. And I am hoping there are more reasonable teachers than unreasonable ones. As far as I am aware, there are less fundamentalist-type RE teachers in the UK than other types (my wife is a teacher). If that is not the case in America then it is this that needs to be worked on.

And now for bed.

Other Comments by Mark Smith

39. Comment #213621 by b0ltzm0n on July 18, 2008 at 5:00 pm

Now I remember why I cancelled my subscription to the Dallas Morning News. If I actually had this kind of news show up on my doorstep I'd probably have a heart attack one day. At least reading the news here for the first time I can wallow in the horror with the rest of you.

Fixed:

"My interest is keeping the focus on indoctrinating kids and spending less money on lawsuits."

Other Comments by b0ltzm0n

40. Comment #213622 by thewhitepearl on July 18, 2008 at 5:00 pm

Mark Smith,

You aren't naive..And no i don't think we can trust teacher's in america to teach it comparatively without invoking their personal opinion...Not like greek mythology was taught to us...The subject hits to close to the heart of american's who consider the bible to be true and a source of morality.

Good Night

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

41. Comment #213626 by thewhitepearl on July 18, 2008 at 5:10 pm

b0ltz,

as a fellow resident of dallas...i feel your pain...my blood pressure shot up when I saw which newspaper this was published in. Hits to close to home

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

42. Comment #213631 by b0ltzm0n on July 18, 2008 at 5:29 pm

Yeah TWP, and what's worse is that I feel so powerless to do anything about it. How do you fight something like this?

Other Comments by b0ltzm0n

43. Comment #213637 by thewhitepearl on July 18, 2008 at 5:40 pm

idk!

A couple of weekends ago I went to Los Lupes and across the street is that big TBN church/tv station (idk if you're familiar with it).

Any way I was def saucy when I left the restaurant and started pointing at it and exclaiming in many different ways how I wanted to burn that effing place down.

Perhaps that's a start..

But on a more realistic level, I've been thinking about writing to the dallas morning news. They'll publish almost anything. Rip everyone a new one.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

44. Comment #213641 by wasabi on July 18, 2008 at 5:44 pm

Cool. Dallasite here too. Ya'll should join some Dallas atheist groups.

Specifically: www.churchoffreethought.org

Other Comments by wasabi

45. Comment #213643 by Spinoza on July 18, 2008 at 5:48 pm

I objectively don't see how they can omit other religious books like the torah or the koran

While I agree with your sentiment, the content of your statement is confused.

The Torah is just the books of Moses, the first 5 books of the Bible...

As for the Quran, having read it, large parts of it are just wacky plagiarisms of parts of the Bible. The parts that aren't are mostly culturally relevant bits on the proper punishments for various infractions, most of which are similar in spirit to Leviticus.

However, I do think some time could be spent on the Daodejing, the Vedas, Upanishads, and the Gita... all of those are amazing works of literature and history.

Unfortunately, I highly doubt there is anyone qualified to teach them in Texas.

Other Comments by Spinoza

46. Comment #213647 by Radesq on July 18, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Ouch...while I share a bit of your sentiment about Tejas (because our fearless/feckless leader calls it home). It has a population of about 25 million -- I think they might be able to find a few scholars.

Other Comments by Radesq

47. Comment #213650 by satanhimself1955 on July 18, 2008 at 6:03 pm

Here's how to stop the Bible classes:

Have atheists go into the school board and DEMAND that bible classes be taught, but using the ENTIRE Old and New Testaments, not leaving anything out, even the violent and porn stuff, because by leaving that out, it would show government trying to unconstitutionally favor JudeoChristianity by putting it in an artificially good light.

Other Comments by satanhimself1955

48. Comment #213687 by BW022 on July 18, 2008 at 7:14 pm

This one is going to end badly.

If you are going to have a religious studies class (even if specific to the Bible) then you had better have down pat. This isn't like studying say Greek or Roman religious writings, since no one is really going to complain if you get some small fact "wrong" since no one really has any personal issue with ancient Greek religions. However, a Jew, Muslim, Catholic, Baptist, Mormon, etc. is going to have a lot to say about which passages are studied, which are not, and how they are presented.

Worse, with ancient religions, you can pretty much treat them as fables. You can just focus objectively on their relationship to culture, art, society, etc. I'd love to know where you are going to get such dispassionate teachers. Presumably every single Bible teacher is going to be a religious person and you bet some and some school boards are going to get off the literary or historical train and preach or accept this stuff as fact. What are you going to do to the first person who laughs at this or says it is stupid? Toss him out of the class?

And of course, you are going to get problems with the selective nature. Only the Bible. Not the Tora, Koran, or Hindu writings. Yes, it might be elective, but obviously by not teaching others... the state is favouring one religion. And certainly all it takes is a few students taking such classes to "rub it in the faces" of those not taking the classes and you have lawsuits.

Perhaps, some of these States really needs an example. Some lawsuit completely bankrupting a school board such that the state has to rent the school from the parents who won the case. Maybe bus the kids an extra fifty miles or something.

Other Comments by BW022

49. Comment #213694 by GoodbyeGodNZ on July 18, 2008 at 7:26 pm

More theodrivel for the kids of Texas ... I think I'll just go off and start another game of chess with the cat .......

Other Comments by GoodbyeGodNZ

50. Comment #213699 by maxamillion on July 18, 2008 at 7:33 pm