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Sunday, July 20, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Antony Flew reviews the Index of The God Delusion

by The Christian Unions

Reposted from:
http://www.bethinking.org/science-christianity/intermediate/flew-speaks-out-professor-antony-flew-reviews-the-god-delusion.htm

On 1st November 2007, Professor Antony Flew's new book There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed his Mind was published by HarperOne. Professor Flew has been called 'the world's most influential philosophical atheist', as well as 'one of the most renowned atheists of the 20th Century' (see Peter S. Williams' bethinking.org article "A change of mind for Antony Flew"). In his book, Professor Flew recounts how he has come to believe in a Creator God as a result of the scientific evidence and philosophical argument.

Not surprisingly, his book caused quite a stir – as can be seen from the miscellaneous customer reviews on Amazon.co.uk. Some of those comments (and those elsewhere) implied that Flew was used by his co-author, Roy Varghese, and did not in fact know what was in the book. This is a serious charge to which Professor Flew responded and which he reiterated in a recent letter (dated 4th June 2008) to a friend of UCCF who has shown it to us. Professor Flew writes:

I have rebutted these criticisms in the following statement: "My name is on the book and it represents exactly my opinions. I would not have a book issued in my name that I do not 100 per cent agree with. I needed someone to do the actual writing because I'm 84 and that was Roy Varghese's role. The idea that someone manipulated me because I'm old is exactly wrong. I may be old but it is hard to manipulate me. That is my book and it represents my thinking."


Professor Flew has recently written his forthright views on Richard Dawkins' book The God Delusion. His article, reproduced below, shows Professor Flew's key reasons for his belief in a Divine Intelligence. He also makes it clear in There is a God (page 213) that it is possible for an omnipotent being to choose to reveal himself to human beings, or to act in the world in other ways. Professor Flew's article is offered here as testimony to the developing thinking of someone who is prepared to consider the evidence and follow its implications wherever it leads.

Professor Antony Flew writes:

The God Delusion by the atheist writer Richard Dawkins, is remarkable in the first place for having achieved some sort of record by selling over a million copies. But what is much more remarkable than that economic achievement is that the contents – or rather lack of contents – of this book show Dawkins himself to have become what he and his fellow secularists typically believe to be an impossibility: namely, a secularist bigot. (Helpfully, my copy of The Oxford Dictionary defines a bigot as 'an obstinate or intolerant adherent of a point of view').

The fault of Dawkins as an academic (which he still was during the period in which he composed this book although he has since announced his intention to retire) was his scandalous and apparently deliberate refusal to present the doctrine which he appears to think he has refuted in its strongest form. Thus we find in his index five references to Einstein. They are to the mask of Einstein and Einstein on morality; on a personal God; on the purpose of life (the human situation and on how man is here for the sake of other men and above all for those on whose well-being our own happiness depends); and finally on Einstein's religious views. But (I find it hard to write with restraint about this obscurantist refusal on the part of Dawkins) he makes no mention of Einstein's most relevant report: namely, that the integrated complexity of the world of physics has led him to believe that there must be a Divine Intelligence behind it. (I myself think it obvious that if this argument is applicable to the world of physics then it must be hugely more powerful if it is applied to the immeasurably more complicated world of biology.)

Of course many physicists with the highest of reputations do not agree with Einstein in this matter. But an academic attacking some ideological position which s/he believes to be mistaken must of course attack that position in its strongest form. This Dawkins does not do in the case of Einstein and his failure is the crucial index of his insincerity of academic purpose and therefore warrants me in charging him with having become, what he has probably believed to be an impossibility, a secularist bigot.

On page 82 of The God Delusion is a remarkable note. It reads 'We might be seeing something similar today in the over-publicised tergiversation of the philosopher Antony Flew, who announced in his old age that he had been converted to belief in some sort of deity (triggering a frenzy of eager repetition all around the Internet).'

What is important about this passage is not what Dawkins is saying about Flew but what he is showing here about Dawkins. For if he had had any interest in the truth of the matter of which he was making so much he would surely have brought himself to write me a letter of enquiry. (When I received a torrent of enquiries after an account of my conversion to Deism had been published in the quarterly of the Royal Institute of Philosophy I managed – I believe – eventually to reply to every letter.)

This whole business makes all too clear that Dawkins is not interested in the truth as such but is primarily concerned to discredit an ideological opponent by any available means. That would itself constitute sufficient reason for suspecting that the whole enterprise of The God Delusion was not, as it at least pretended to be, an attempt to discover and spread knowledge of the existence or non-existence of God but rather an attempt – an extremely successful one – to spread the author's own convictions in this area.

A less important point which needs to be made in this piece is that although the index of The God Delusion notes six references to Deism it provides no definition of the word 'deism'. This enables Dawkins in his references to Deism to suggest that Deists are a miscellany of believers in this and that. The truth, which Dawkins ought to have learned before this book went to the printers, is that Deists believe in the existence of a God but not the God of any revelation. In fact the first notable public appearance of the notion of Deism was in the American Revolution. The young man who drafted the Declaration of Independence and who later became President Jefferson was a Deist, as were several of the other founding fathers of that abidingly important institution, the United States.

In that monster footnote to what I am inclined to describe as a monster book – The God Delusion – Dawkins reproaches me for what he calls my ignominious decision to accept, in 2006, the Phillip E. Johnson Award for Liberty and Truth. The awarding Institution is Biola, The Bible Institute of Los Angeles. Dawkins does not say outright that his objection to my decision is that Biola is a specifically Christian institution. He obviously assumes (but refrains from actually saying) that this is incompatible with producing first class academic work in every department – not a thesis which would be acceptable in either my own university or Oxford or in Harvard.

In my time at Oxford, in the years immediately succeeding the second world war, Gilbert Ryle (then Waynflete Professor of Metaphysical Philosophy in the University of Oxford) published a hugely influential book The Concept of Mind. This book revealed by implication, but only by implication, that minds are not entities of a sort which could coherently be said to survive the death of those whose minds they were.

Ryle felt responsible for the smooth pursuit of philosophical teaching and the publication of the findings of philosophical research in the university and knew that, at that time, there would have been uproar if he had published his own conclusion that the very idea of a second life after death was self-contradictory and incoherent. He was content for me to do this at a later time and in another place. I told him that if I were ever invited to give one of the Gifford Lecture series my subject would be The Logic of Mortality. When I was, I did and these Lectures were first published by Blackwell (Oxford) in 1987. They are still in print from Prometheus Books (Amherst, NY).

Finally, as to the suggestion that I have been used by Biola University. If the way I was welcomed by the students and the members of faculty whom I met on my short stay in Biola amounted to being used then I can only express my regret that at the age of 85 I cannot reasonably hope for another visit to this institution.

Note on Lord Gifford (Adam)
The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography describes Lord Gifford as 'judge and benefactor'. He endowed lectureships at four Scottish universities 'for promoting, advancing and diffusing natural theology, in the widest sense of that term, in other words the knowledge of God' and 'of the foundation of ethics.' The first lectures were delivered in 1888.

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1. Comment #214462 by mordacious1 on July 20, 2008 at 1:43 pm

This is a sad story. I really do think that Flew actually flew (into the cuckoo's nest). I'd like to see the guy on video so I can judge for myself if his marbles are all still in the bag.

[edit] I've already told my wife that if I start believing in god, that senility has set in and that she can put me in a home or put me down, her choice.

Other Comments by mordacious1

2. Comment #214469 by Oystein Elgaroy on July 20, 2008 at 1:54 pm

 avatarWhere is the documentation for Einstein's alleged views on God? And if Flew is right (which I seriously doubt) what would it prove? Flew's(?) book is full of arguments from authority: famous physicists X and Y believed in God, hence God exists. He can't be at his full mental powers if he wants to take full responsibility for such a crappy book.

Other Comments by Oystein Elgaroy

3. Comment #214471 by Diacanu on July 20, 2008 at 1:55 pm

 avatar

His article, reproduced below, shows Professor Flew's key reasons for his belief in a Divine Intelligence.


Didn't have the patience to plow through the whole thing, was presentation of empirical proof of God one of those reasons?
Doubting it.

Other Comments by Diacanu

4. Comment #214472 by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy on July 20, 2008 at 1:55 pm

It's one of those ones where you just have to shake your head and wonder why?

And the only reason I can come up with is because it makes him feel good. Bugger the facts and sod the evidence, so long as he feels safe in that comfortable blanket of religion that's what he's gonna stick to.

Other Comments by He'sAVeryNaughtyBoy

5. Comment #214475 by BicycleRepairMan on July 20, 2008 at 1:59 pm

 avatarThe more I read about/by Flew, the more confused I get. Dawkins spends quite a lot of time explaining the differences between theists, deist and pantheists as far as I can remember.

Other Comments by BicycleRepairMan

6. Comment #214476 by blu on July 20, 2008 at 2:00 pm

It's been awhile since I read The God Delusion, but I distinctly recall a discussion of what a Deist believes and how it differs from a Theist. Or am I just mis-remembering? However, given that I know that I did not know the distinction before reading TGD and GING and my current understanding matches what is written above, I am going to guess that Richard Dawkins was aware of it before he wrote the book. And don't I recall reading a refutation about Einstein? I think that the author here did get it right when he said that RD did not write TGD to explore Truth, but to spread the author's own convictions. But it does present the reasons for that conviction, so what is the problem? TGD is not a theology book after all, but science writing.

Other Comments by blu

7. Comment #214478 by Shaka on July 20, 2008 at 2:00 pm

 avatarFlew is clealy just scared of dieing, because of his old age.

Other Comments by Shaka

8. Comment #214480 by Apathy personified on July 20, 2008 at 2:02 pm

 avatar
he has since announced his intention to retire
Isn't it a mandatory retirement?

or rather lack of contents
Hmm, maybe people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?

apparently deliberate refusal to present the doctrine
He did, very early on. Also, it is very difficult to do this, as he would get the response, 'That's NOT my religion he's talking about'.

a secularist bigot
That can go on the list with; strident, evangelical atheist, etc.

Other Comments by Apathy personified

9. Comment #214483 by alovrin on July 20, 2008 at 2:06 pm

 avatarIm interested to hear Richard's comments on this.
Even on the laughable claim by Flew of secular bigotry.
And thoughts about Gilbert Ryle and the Gifford lecture series by Flew "The Logic of Mortality".

I dont know these books and associated materials.
I will see if they are available on line tho'.
Anyone out there who has read them?
MPhil can you contribute anything?

Other Comments by alovrin

10. Comment #214485 by Diacanu on July 20, 2008 at 2:10 pm

 avatarShaka-


Flew is clealy just scared of dieing, because of his old age.


I don't really get the logic of that.

If there's no afterlife, wishing for it with all your heart, lungs, liver, and colon won't make it be there.

Likewise, if it turned out there is an afterlife, not believing in it won't make it not be there.

All this faith shit does, is ease passage into that last shrinking TV screen dot.

And really, oftentimes not even then.
Especially if that final TV dot moment was preceeded by the chomping of shark/alligator teeth.

Well, logic shmogic I guess, fear of death is a raw animal thing.

But so's flinging poo, and I don't do that either.
So, I still dodn't let people off lightly.
The apologists want militant, I'M militant. ;)

Other Comments by Diacanu

11. Comment #214488 by Eshto on July 20, 2008 at 2:12 pm

 avatarAccording to Anton Flew:

"...although the index of The God Delusion notes six references to Deism it provides no definition of the word 'deism'"

From The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins:

"Let's remind ourselves of the terminology. A theist believes in a supernatural intelligence who, in addition to his main work of creating the universe in the first place, is still around to oversee and influence the subsequent fate of his initial creation... A deist, too, believes in a supernatural intelligence, but one whose activities were confined to setting up the laws that govern the universe in the first place... Pantheists don't believe in a supernatural God at all, but use the word God as a non-supernatural synonym for Nature, or for the Universe, or for the lawfulness that governs its workings... Deists differ from theists in that their god does not answer prayers... Deists differ from pantheists in that the deist God is some kind of cosmic intelligence, rather than the pantheist's metaphoric or poetic synonym for the laws of the universe. Pantheism is sexed-up atheism. Deism is watered-down theism."

Is he upset because the definition was clearly laid out in the body of the text and not in the index?

I don't get it.

Other Comments by Eshto

12. Comment #214489 by mordacious1 on July 20, 2008 at 2:13 pm

Actually, Richard has made comments about Flew in the past, I wish I could direct you to them.

And he's buuuuuy-innng a stairway, to heaaaaven.

Other Comments by mordacious1

13. Comment #214492 by Auraboy on July 20, 2008 at 2:16 pm

 avatarWhat a strange diatribe. If you care to open The God Delusion you'll find all of the points Flew mentions answered. The religious views of Einstein, a rather judgement free description of the variations in belief, including a rather word for word explanation of Deism versus Theism and noting, as Flew seems to have missed, the explanation in various forms of Jefferson's religious leanings.


I can understand someone wanting to throw stones at Richard's tone (as most of the negative reviews did, as they had nothing else to really go for) but to apparently have missed both the index and text of the book in question seems a grave oversight if not a slightly sad act of senility.


Really quite sad reading. A bit like watching an old person soil themselves. I'd rather not attack. It deserves sympathy rather than vitriol.

Other Comments by Auraboy

14. Comment #214494 by PristinePanda on July 20, 2008 at 2:20 pm

 avatar
The fault of Dawkins as an academic (which he still was during the period in which he composed this book although he has since announced his intention to retire)


This is libel, to say the least.

He'll be 70 years old, he deserves to choose to voluntarily retire.

Other Comments by PristinePanda

15. Comment #214496 by stevencarrwork on July 20, 2008 at 2:23 pm

Rather amusingly, Flew writes the following :-

'A less important point which needs to be made in this piece is that although the index of The God Delusion notes six references to Deism it provides no definition of the word 'deism’.'

The book that Roy Varghese wrote for Flew contains no definition of the word 'deism' and how it differs from theism.

Flew seems to have forgotten what is in his 'own' book...

He certainly has no idea what is in The God Delusion.

On page 18 Dawkins writes :-

'A theist believes in a supernatural intelligence who in addition to his main work of creating the universe in the first place, is still around to oversee and and influence the subsequent fate of his initial creation... A deist too believes in a supernatural intelligence, but one whose activities were confined to setting up the laws that govern the universe in the first place. The deist God never intervenes thereafter, and certainly has no specific interest in human affairs.'

Yet Flew can review the God Delusion and write that there is no definition of deism in it.

He really has gone....

Other Comments by stevencarrwork

16. Comment #214498 by Quine on July 20, 2008 at 2:25 pm

 avatarPerhaps it is because of the nature of the terminology of his youth, but Flew just doesn't get the fact that entertaining Deism while using the term "God" makes him the tool of the conventional religious. I can understand that Flew might complain that Prof. Dawkins is treating him as if his position is religious, but that is because he has allowed the religious to present his position as such.

Other Comments by Quine

17. Comment #214503 by PristinePanda on July 20, 2008 at 2:33 pm

 avatarHopefully a few Einstein quotes will elucidate the matter for those uncertain of his spirituality, all taken from the English wikipedia:

You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth."

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

"A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms"it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man."

Other Comments by PristinePanda

18. Comment #214506 by HourglassMemory on July 20, 2008 at 2:40 pm

I sense that the whole thing, especially since it was published by The Christian Unions, to be a big indirect fallacy (argument from authority).

I'm not saying IT IS, but, oh can I feel them getting close to that cliff.

It would be rather interesting to read Richard's response.

Other Comments by HourglassMemory

19. Comment #214507 by Spinoza on July 20, 2008 at 2:41 pm

 avatar
Einstein's most relevant report: namely, that the integrated complexity of the world of physics has led him to believe that there must be a Divine Intelligence behind it.


I'm flabbergasted that Flew has failed to understand what Einstein's Spinozism meant.

Einstein categorically did not believe in a "Divine Intelligence BEHIND" the integrated complexity of the world... he couldn't have. As a committed Spinozist who understood Spinoza quite well, there's just no way Einstein could coherently state something like that and mean by it what people who believe in a transcendent God mean.

Spinoza's God is immanent in the Universe.. that is to say, it IS the Universe... not behind it...

And insofar as there is "intelligence" in God, for Einstein and for Spinoza... that is only to say that the Universe can be understood under the attribute of thought by beings who are capable of doing so. That is to say, so far as we know, just us.

Other Comments by Spinoza

20. Comment #214510 by thewhitepearl on July 20, 2008 at 2:45 pm

 avataridk what copy of TGD he got but I'm pretty sure he covered the different "theisms".

Sometimes I wish these articles came with a "Rate of Frustration scale" Like "have a cup of coffee before reading this" all the way to "remove all sharp objects from the area".

For if he had had any interest in the truth of the matter of which he was making so much he would surely have brought himself to write me a letter of enquiry.


I don't recall Dawkins going into a personal insight as to why he thought Flew did this. I could be mistaken. But judging from the statement that was quoted, I don't see why he needed to compose a letter to the guy to find out any further "truth" just for stating the obvious.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

21. Comment #214511 by MPhil on July 20, 2008 at 2:46 pm

 avatar...Diacanu,

we shouldn't require too much. There is no such thing as a "proof" of anything except for purely logical or mathematical things.

What I propose we should require are conclusive arguments that some god-hypothesis (deism - theism, whatever) is the best available explanation for something.

I have never seen arguments for this I would call conclusive... and I haven't even read an attempt at this in this article.

Flew isn't completely off his rocker... he isn't a theist. He knows that the mind dies with the brain for example...

...still, I think he is wrong in thinking Deism is a tenable position.

Other Comments by MPhil

22. Comment #214514 by vesihiisi on July 20, 2008 at 2:56 pm

 avatarThese militant deists do their case no favours.

Other Comments by vesihiisi

23. Comment #214518 by Telic on July 20, 2008 at 3:01 pm

 avatar

Antony Flew reviews the Index of The God Delusion



This says it all really. He obviously hasn't actually read the book - only the index.



Perhaps the person who wrote Flew's book also does Flew's reading for him? And just tried to give him the gist of what the book says....?

He also seems to do a lot of assuming about what people mean, or what they are "implying", even when they don't actually say what he believes they are saying....



Pretty disgraceful really.

Other Comments by Telic

24. Comment #214521 by Quine on July 20, 2008 at 3:05 pm

 avatarComment #214510 by thewhitepearl:
Sometimes I wish these articles came with a "Rate of Frustration scale" Like "have a cup of coffee before reading this" all the way to "remove all sharp objects from the area".


There was half a cup of coffee sitting close on the bedside table when I started writing my last post. It went over on the floor and corner of the bed, and now I am doing laundry and scrubbing the mattress.

Other Comments by Quine

25. Comment #214522 by BigJohn on July 20, 2008 at 3:08 pm

 avatarAre there any people extant who actually knew Antony Flew before and after his 'conversion' and who could comment on what is going on? It would be informative to hear some of these people's observations of his present status.

Other Comments by BigJohn

26. Comment #214523 by Dhamma on July 20, 2008 at 3:09 pm

 avatarIt's impressive how one can use so many words without saying anything at all.

Was he really impressive as a voice for atheism before?

Really, he's just saying he thinks Dawkins is wrong, without offering anything that strengthens his own belief in a deity.
The funny thing is that religious people seem to think that if they discredit atheism, it by default means they're right! How can they not see the flaws in their logic?

Other Comments by Dhamma

27. Comment #214524 by thewhitepearl on July 20, 2008 at 3:11 pm

 avatarLook on the brightside Quine, at least it managed to miss your computer. (Or blackberry, iphone, sidekick, laptop)

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

28. Comment #214525 by 43alley on July 20, 2008 at 3:11 pm

 avatarDawkins addressed Flew's deconversion in the question-and-answer session when he spoke at Randolph-Macon's Women's College near Liberty University (surely everyone remembers the creationists from Falwell's "compound" lining up to stump Professor Dawkins -- and he mows each one down in turn).

Here is the part where he addresses Flew:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEPUn__hYso

Other Comments by 43alley

29. Comment #214528 by ricey on July 20, 2008 at 3:15 pm

Just shows you have to read and understand everything before you can seriously enter a debate.

I have no idea whether Flew's just a senile old git, or whether Dawkins is just a ranting, if eloquent, spoilt brat.

Lots of us give our views, very few listen to those of others.

Other Comments by ricey

30. Comment #214533 by robotaholic on July 20, 2008 at 3:20 pm

 avatarat least Richard Dawkins actually WROTE his last book - this man didn't even write his last book-
-just because you agree with something doesn't mean you have the skill to actually write it -
and look what he wrote:
"My one and only piece of relevant evidence [for an Aristotelian God] is the apparent impossibility of providing a naturalistic theory of the origin from DNA of the first reproducing species ... [In fact] the only reason which I have for beginning to think of believing in a First Cause god is the impossibility of providing a naturalistic account of the origin of the first reproducing organisms."


-I believe that is exactly what Intelligent Design teaches - that I can't imagine how it could have happened so GODDIDIT-

isn't that it? -

Other Comments by robotaholic

31. Comment #214537 by kornyjorge on July 20, 2008 at 3:29 pm

 avatarIt seems to me more like an article of ad hominem attacks, irrelevant points, and appeals to authority than an actual rebuttal of Dawkins' claims.

Why do i get the feeling he hasn't actually read the book? Why don't they ever read the book?

Other Comments by kornyjorge

32. Comment #214541 by robotaholic on July 20, 2008 at 3:32 pm

 avatarguess what I found - an open letter to Richard Dawkins from Dinesh DeSouza-

http://news.aol.com/newsbloggers/2008/07/20/an-open-letter-to-richard-dawkins/

Other Comments by robotaholic

33. Comment #214542 by Quine on July 20, 2008 at 3:33 pm

 avatarYou can listen to Flew loosing it in person here and here.

Other Comments by Quine

34. Comment #214547 by GregPhillips on July 20, 2008 at 3:34 pm

 avatarYep - I keep a copy on my desk in case of Christard attacks and just looked it up, there is definately a clear definition of Deism in The God Delusion.

Maybe instead of reading the index, Flew should have actually read the book...

Greg

Other Comments by GregPhillips

35. Comment #214548 by kraut on July 20, 2008 at 3:35 pm

"the only reason which I have for beginning to think of believing in a First Cause god is the impossibility of providing a naturalistic account of the origin of the first reproducing organisms."


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/07/080717140459.htm


maybe the old codger should try to stay up to date.

Other Comments by kraut

36. Comment #214549 by mordacious1 on July 20, 2008 at 3:35 pm

43alley

That's the one, thanks for posting it.

"Anthony Flew said he was convinced by intelligent design in biology...". There you go, the guys off his nut.

Other Comments by mordacious1

37. Comment #214550 by Steve Zara on July 20, 2008 at 3:37 pm

 avatar
(I myself think it obvious that if this argument is applicable to the world of physics then it must be hugely more powerful if it is applied to the immeasurably more complicated world of biology.)


As I can apparently seem hand-wringingly nice and sanctimonious:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/rolls_eyes_its_a_cracker_peopl.php#comment-997242

I'll try a different tone:

This is a load of moronic nonsense! It is sheer garbage! The WHOLE POINT (see the angry capitals?) of our current understanding of evolution is that we can see where all the complexity comes from!. There is NO GAP for any god!

If biology seems MORE complex and yet needs no God, why invoke it in physics!

Idiot!

Other Comments by Steve Zara

38. Comment #214552 by JammyB on July 20, 2008 at 3:39 pm

"his scandalous and apparently deliberate refusal to present the doctrine which he appears to think he has refuted in its strongest form
...
he makes no mention of Einstein's most relevant report: namely, that the integrated complexity of the world of physics has led him to believe that there must be a Divine Intelligence behind it."

1) The universe is complex
2) Therefore: God.

That's the argument in its strongest form is it? Hahahahahaha.

Other Comments by JammyB

39. Comment #214553 by mordacious1 on July 20, 2008 at 3:40 pm

There you go Steve. Now that wasn't difficult, was it? And don't you feel better?

Other Comments by mordacious1

40. Comment #214559 by Steve Zara on July 20, 2008 at 3:46 pm

 avatarNo change really.

If some people don't like my personality or character, that is their problem.

If someone feels the need to mention it, I think it suggests more about them than about me.

But, back to the subject, this really is a poor article from Flew.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

41. Comment #214563 by Stevezar on July 20, 2008 at 3:49 pm

 avatarWow, Antony Flew sure is a strident, fundamentalist deist!

Hmm...Steve Zara. I'm new here, I think I will go change my name!

Other Comments by Stevezar

42. Comment #214567 by mordacious1 on July 20, 2008 at 3:53 pm

Robotaholic

DeSouza is such a wank, and that letter proves it.

[edit] You weren't afraid to write The Selfish Gene, why are you afraid to debate me?

What a crap-for-brains this guy is.

Other Comments by mordacious1

43. Comment #214569 by joshuaslocum on July 20, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Steve, I sent you a private message (before you decided to bring our back and forth at Pharyngula into this unrelated thread).

Other Comments by joshuaslocum

44. Comment #214574 by Inferno on July 20, 2008 at 4:07 pm

 avatar
His article, reproduced below, shows Professor Flew's key reasons for his belief in a Divine Intelligence.


It does? This is all he says...

I myself think it obvious that if this argument is applicable to the world of physics then it must be hugely more powerful if it is applied to the immeasurably more complicated world of biology


That is the extent of his arguments for a god. Hardly justifies using the plural "reasons".

Other Comments by Inferno

45. Comment #214580 by Steve Zara on July 20, 2008 at 4:16 pm

 avatarComment #214569 by joshuaslocum

I apologise. It was crass of me.

EDIT: I thought I could have a bit of a sulk combined with humour, but I don't think I pulled it off.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

46. Comment #214581 by Laurie Fraser on July 20, 2008 at 4:16 pm

 avatarAll youse militert afeists is rong, rong, I ses. I seen the pope yrestreday an he is
god's main man on urth, is'nt he? and he tol me god's really real, like,and now i been koverted like an I bieleve what the pope ses cos he's gods man .

Other Comments by Laurie Fraser

47. Comment #214583 by Apathy personified on July 20, 2008 at 4:20 pm

 avatarLaurie,
How were your pope related adventures? Were you one of those throwing condoms at catholics? (*immature man giggle*)

Other Comments by Apathy personified

48. Comment #214584 by mordacious1 on July 20, 2008 at 4:22 pm

Laurie

Glad to have you back, anyone put out a cruxifix at you? Like you're Dracula??

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49. Comment #214588 by JHJEFFERY on July 20, 2008 at 4:29 pm

I write only to comment on the Einstein portion of Professor Flew's letter (if it indeed is his own). I could comment on D'Souza, since, in my discourse with him I have found his scholarship less than reliable (he cited a 'historian" who turned out to be a rhetorician--didn't you think Cicero was the last of that breed--who had also written an article asserting that the diagram of the Christian fish with legs and "Darwin" in the figure was "aggressive".

Without bothering to provide mined quotes, I have completed a master's level course on the life of Einstein (A), read three biographies of the man, along with countless of his own writings. To say that Einstein was religious, as Ken Ham has recently also alleged, is simply and absolutely ridiculous.

JHJ

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50. Comment #214589 by Dhamma on July 20, 2008 at 4:30 pm

 avatarQuine: I listened to the videos of him you provided.. That guy is an absolute loony. He clearly has no idea of what he's trying to defend. Not to offend philosophers, but it becomes clear that's all he is.

I'm more concerned about the sane atheist community that have actually regarded him as a leading figure for us.

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