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Cardinal accuses Anglican Communion of 'spiritual Alzheimer's'
by Guardian
Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/23/anglicanism.religion
Cardinal accuses Anglican Communion of 'spiritual Alzheimer's'
A Vatican official last night described the turmoil in the Anglican Communion as "spiritual Alzheimer's" and "ecclesial Parkinson's".
The damning verdict came from Cardinal Ivan Dias, prefect of the Congregation for the Evangelisation of Peoples, who is the most senior Catholic delegate invited to the Lambeth Conference - the once-a-decade gathering of the world's Anglican bishops.
In his address, Dias was careful not to single out the Anglican church, which has been afflicted by divisions since the consecration of a gay bishop in 2003. Instead he referred to "Christian communities".
However, his unequivocal language laid bare his disapproval of the chaos sweeping through the world's third biggest Christian denomination. He said: "When we live myopically in the fleeting present, oblivious of our past heritage and apostolic traditions, we could well be suffering from spiritual Alzheimer's.
"When we behave in a disorderly manner, going whimsically our own way without any coordination with the head of or the other members of our community, it could be ecclesial Parkinson's."
Dias is highly regarded in Rome and was one of the cardinals considered papabile - worthy of being elected pope - at the 2005 conclave that eventually selected Benedict XVI. His speech is the latest in a series of criticisms from Rome about the liberal drift of the Anglican church.
Earlier this month, the Vatican expressed regret that the Church of England's General Synod voted to proceed with the ordination of women bishops, while on the eve of the conference the second in command at the Holy See, Tarcisio Cardinal Bertone, warned that the crises gripping Anglicanism posed a "further and grave challenge" to the relationship between the two denominations.
Dias told bishops the battle to bring Christ to the world must be placed in the "wider context of spiritual combat" with Satan. "If this context is ignored in favour of a myopic world-vision, Christ's salvation will be conveniently dismissed as irrelevant."
This "spiritual warfare" had continued since the fall of Adam, raging "aided and abetted by well-known secret sects, Satanic groups and New Age movements" that revealed the "many ugly heads of the hideous anti-God monster".
These works of the devil were, he added, "secularism, which seeks to build a godless society; spiritual indifference, which is insensitive to transcendental values; and relativism, which is contrary to the permanent tenets of the Gospel".
"We Christians and bishops can ill afford to remain on the sidelines as passive spectators," he warned.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/23/anglicanism.religion
Cardinal accuses Anglican Communion of 'spiritual Alzheimer's'
A Vatican official last night described the turmoil in the Anglican Communion as "spiritual Alzheimer's" and "ecclesial Parkinson's".
The damning verdict came from Cardinal Ivan Dias, prefect of the Congregation for the Evangelisation of Peoples, who is the most senior Catholic delegate invited to the Lambeth Conference - the once-a-decade gathering of the world's Anglican bishops.
In his address, Dias was careful not to single out the Anglican church, which has been afflicted by divisions since the consecration of a gay bishop in 2003. Instead he referred to "Christian communities".
However, his unequivocal language laid bare his disapproval of the chaos sweeping through the world's third biggest Christian denomination. He said: "When we live myopically in the fleeting present, oblivious of our past heritage and apostolic traditions, we could well be suffering from spiritual Alzheimer's.
"When we behave in a disorderly manner, going whimsically our own way without any coordination with the head of or the other members of our community, it could be ecclesial Parkinson's."
Dias is highly regarded in Rome and was one of the cardinals considered papabile - worthy of being elected pope - at the 2005 conclave that eventually selected Benedict XVI. His speech is the latest in a series of criticisms from Rome about the liberal drift of the Anglican church.
Earlier this month, the Vatican expressed regret that the Church of England's General Synod voted to proceed with the ordination of women bishops, while on the eve of the conference the second in command at the Holy See, Tarcisio Cardinal Bertone, warned that the crises gripping Anglicanism posed a "further and grave challenge" to the relationship between the two denominations.
Dias told bishops the battle to bring Christ to the world must be placed in the "wider context of spiritual combat" with Satan. "If this context is ignored in favour of a myopic world-vision, Christ's salvation will be conveniently dismissed as irrelevant."
This "spiritual warfare" had continued since the fall of Adam, raging "aided and abetted by well-known secret sects, Satanic groups and New Age movements" that revealed the "many ugly heads of the hideous anti-God monster".
These works of the devil were, he added, "secularism, which seeks to build a godless society; spiritual indifference, which is insensitive to transcendental values; and relativism, which is contrary to the permanent tenets of the Gospel".
"We Christians and bishops can ill afford to remain on the sidelines as passive spectators," he warned.
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Posted: Wednesday, July 23, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 151 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #216991 by CocoCantare on July 23, 2008 at 7:02 pm
Ahhh, nothing like a bunch of delusional old men in robes arguing amongst themselves. Even though I am now an atheist, excluding women from priesthood/leadership enrages me as it did when I was Baptist and later Catholic.
Other Comments by CocoCantare
3. Comment #216993 by Radesq on July 23, 2008 at 7:03 pm
A Vatican official last night described the turmoil in the Anglican Communion as "spiritual Alzheimer's" and "ecclesial Parkinson's".
The lot of them give me Theological Turret's syndrome.
Other Comments by Radesq
4. Comment #216994 by SimplyIrresponsible on July 23, 2008 at 7:04 pm
Whenever I read an article like this I put AC/DC (Bonn Scott) in the CD player and crank it up to full volume then have a pint and crawl into bed and hope tomorrow will be better. I do hope a better tomorrow comes ... and soon . My hearing and liver can't take much more of this. Other Comments by SimplyIrresponsible
5. Comment #216995 by Brian English on July 23, 2008 at 7:05 pm
"When we behave in a disorderly manner, going whimsically our own way without any coordination with the head of or the other members of our community, it could be ecclesial Parkinson's."
Sounds more like ecclesiastical Huntington's to me. I think the Cardinal needs to go back to review his spiritual neuro-psychology.
This "spiritual warfare" had continued since the fall of Adam, raging "aided and abetted by well-known secret sects, Satanic groups and New Age movements" that revealed the "many ugly heads of the hideous anti-God monster".
An imagined first man, paranoia about secret sects, satanic groups and movements that like the church have no epistemological footing. How much woo can a sentence contain?
Other Comments by Brian English
6. Comment #216996 by Radesq on July 23, 2008 at 7:07 pm
SI: There ain't nuthin...nuthin you can do...shazbot, nanu, nanu. Tell me you are really a Bon Scott fan and you get the reference. Other Comments by Radesq
7. Comment #216997 by melsdr on July 23, 2008 at 7:08 pm
'Dias told bishops the battle to bring Christ to the world must be placed in the "wider context of spiritual combat" with Satan. "If this context is ignored in favour of a myopic world-vision, Christ's salvation will be conveniently dismissed as irrelevant." 'How, in the 21st century, are such idiotic, superstitious comments deemed news worthy. It's depressing.
Why doesn't the Anglican church just call bullshit on the whole religious thing, keep the churches as a social centre to go to for a sing-song on a sunday, followed by tea and cream-cakes. Then they can just ignore these wankers in Rome?
I don't know who said it but I have heard the phrase 'the CofE, taking the god out of religion' (or somrthing similar). Sounds good to me!
Other Comments by melsdr
8. Comment #216998 by Grantaire of JC on July 23, 2008 at 7:12 pm
Typical response from Rome. They want to be the only game in town and are upset because the others won't play on their terms. I guess it's time to make t-shirts that say "Atheist because the devil made me do it" I could sell them outside the Vatican.Other Comments by Grantaire of JC
9. Comment #216999 by Mike O'Risal on July 23, 2008 at 7:14 pm
This "spiritual warfare" had continued since the fall of Adam, raging "aided and abetted by well-known secret sects...
Anyone who can utter the phrase "well-known secret sects" with a straight face in any context should be pied on the spot.
Who is more laughable... someone who can talk about "well-known secret sects" or the people willing to take such a goofus seriously?
Other Comments by Mike O'Risal
10. Comment #217001 by kkelly on July 23, 2008 at 7:19 pm
I love how he thinks equal rights for women and gays is a "fleeting" cultural caprice. I love how he's going to die knowing in the back of his mind, that it probably isn't. Other Comments by kkelly
11. Comment #217002 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Dias told bishops the battle to bring Christ to the world must be placed in the "wider context of spiritual combat" with Satan
I wonder what he means by that.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
12. Comment #217004 by SimplyIrresponsible on July 23, 2008 at 7:26 pm
Radesq: The rumored last recorded words of Bonn ... with him him being a big fan of Mork and Mindy ... of course. Other Comments by SimplyIrresponsible
13. Comment #217005 by kkelly on July 23, 2008 at 7:28 pm
11, He means more religious intrusion on secular, spiritually empty matters. Other Comments by kkelly
14. Comment #217006 by Radesq on July 23, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Caution dick joke:"When we behave in a disorderly manner, going whimsically our own way without any coordination with the head of or the ,other members of our community, it could be ecclesial Parkinson's."
But seriously folks, if the clergy of old were anything like those today...I wonder if an all knowing, all powerful God and a mischievous Satan aren't just excuses not to accept personal responsibility for one's own failings.
e~ SI...tacked onto the end of "Night Prowler" on Highway to Hell (for the benefit of any holy trollers here)
Other Comments by Radesq
15. Comment #217009 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 7:39 pm
...I wonder if an all knowing, all powerful God and a mischievous Satan aren't just excuses not to accept personal responsibility for one's own failings.
Well, duuuuuuuuh! :)
That's exactly what it is.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
16. Comment #217010 by flistr8 on July 23, 2008 at 7:39 pm
Found on the Alzheimer's Myths website:
"Reality: Alzheimer's disease will kill you. It destroys brain cells and causes memory changes, erratic behaviors and loss of body functions. It slowly and painfully takes away your identity, ability to connect with others, think, eat, talk, walk and find your way home."
It's not often I find myself in agreement with men of the cloth but this time, I think the damning Cardinal Ivan Dias has it nailed.
Other Comments by flistr8
17. Comment #217011 by Radesq on July 23, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Arrrgh! I coin the term "Holy Trollers"(c) and all I get for my trouble is a "well, duuuuuh!"At least you didn't forget to salute!
Other Comments by Radesq
18. Comment #217012 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 7:52 pm
I must have missed it Rad. But ha it has a definte ring to it!
I like very much, yes..Very nice.
So which Holy Trollers(c) do you think we'll get tonight?
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
19. Comment #217013 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 7:57 pm
Sometimes I wonder if we secretly make atheist out of people who are weak in their faith or on the fence.
You know like they come here to see what it's all about and start reading the posts, and then the wheels start spinning, they get a little curious, start researching more, come here more..and then VOILA! One day it hits them like a ton of bricks.
A dose of Dawkins.net a day, keeps the fairy tales at bay.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
20. Comment #217015 by CocoCantare on July 23, 2008 at 8:03 pm
Ya know, I think it may happen more often than we think, as I am proof of just exactly how you put it, twp. Other Comments by CocoCantare
21. Comment #217018 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 8:09 pm
Really Coco? Wow!
That's a good thing to hear. Did you come onto the site weak, curious, or set out to come and validate the common misconceptions about atheists and science? In a way to sort of prove that you were right about your faith?
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
22. Comment #217020 by Brian English on July 23, 2008 at 8:12 pm
Coco, who was the nasty atheist who stole your precious faith? Or was it a coven thing? We are legion apparently.Other Comments by Brian English
23. Comment #217021 by mordacious1 on July 23, 2008 at 8:13 pm
On the other hand, I came on this site as a devout atheist, but the mind-bending logic of Joe M. is slowing turning me into a muslim.Other Comments by mordacious1
24. Comment #217022 by Radesq on July 23, 2008 at 8:14 pm
Coco six sisters and two brothers, are you sure your parents weren't Mormons? :) Other Comments by Radesq
25. Comment #217023 by Brian English on July 23, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Splitter!Other Comments by Brian English
26. Comment #217024 by Brian English on July 23, 2008 at 8:15 pm
Rad I got 5 sisters and 4 brothers.Other Comments by Brian English
27. Comment #217027 by Radesq on July 23, 2008 at 8:18 pm
Brian: You must go to a lot of weddings. Other Comments by Radesq
28. Comment #217029 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Rad, Coco, Brian I have five brothers.
On the other hand, I came on this site as a devout atheist, but the mind-bending logic of Joe M. is slowing turning me into a muslim.
If this happens stick to throwing me in front of the bus and not the kitchen.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
29. Comment #217030 by Brian English on July 23, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Yeah there's been a few. I don't remember any of them much. Beer and memory don't seem to get along. I know I mooned some relatives at one wedding a decade ago. :DOther Comments by Brian English
30. Comment #217034 by CocoCantare on July 23, 2008 at 8:24 pm
(Lol, mordacious1, I'm so sorry)Well,twp, I am curious by nature. I ask a lot of questions to fully understand things, almost ad nauseum. Even my mom says she thinks my first word was "why?". I was very emotionally attached to my faith, but I slowly began questioning things more and more. I guess you could say my faith started unraveling right before my eyes. RD.net answered a lot of my questions. Things in life just make more sense now.
I admit I was afraid of atheists for a long time. I assumed all atheists to be immoral and/or amoral . But then I really witnessed so much hypocrisy in christians, and I realized God doesn't make us choose to do the right thing or treat people with respect and kindness. I witnessed a lot of good, kind, atheists on this site and it blew me away. Am I rambling on? Am I making any sense? Sorry. I could seriously write a novel about my "journey".
Other Comments by CocoCantare
31. Comment #217038 by Brian English on July 23, 2008 at 8:27 pm
CocoCantare, I believe there's a 'converts corner' on this very site that hosts conversion stories.Other Comments by Brian English
32. Comment #217039 by mordacious1 on July 23, 2008 at 8:27 pm
twpSorry, I'm going to have to push you under a camel. It's the way we do things, although YOU are heading for a good stoning. Repent before the wrath of Allah befalls you.
[edit] you know, I could into this fake muslim thing, it's kinda fun, maybe I'll log on under a new moniker.
Other Comments by mordacious1
33. Comment #217040 by CocoCantare on July 23, 2008 at 8:30 pm
Hey, don't take this too far, mordacious. Besides, twp's picture has a message for crazees like you. ;o) Other Comments by CocoCantare
34. Comment #217042 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 8:36 pm
Coco,
Yeah that makes perfect sense. Brian is right if you feel like writing your journey to stick it in the convert's corner. I've been thinking about it, but I actually think I'm going to turn it into a book.
Mordy,
Don't you dare! Or maybe if we get a christian troll tonight. You two could go at it. Just make it something the lot of us could recognize it's you.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
35. Comment #217043 by Goldy on July 23, 2008 at 8:38 pm
On the other hand, I came on this site as a devout atheist, but the mind-bending logic of Joe M. is slowing turning me into a muslim.
I too am slowly seeing the light. Booby O'Brien and David Robertson have shown me Christ is the way by their patience, their wit, their crushing arguments and their saintly personae. I can now see only through Christ can I be as nice and gentle and, gosh darn, as friendly as them!
Other Comments by Goldy
36. Comment #217044 by majordomo on July 23, 2008 at 8:42 pm
I hate being in a differnt time zone!!
I always miss out on the discussions!
!!!!!!!!
Its that time in the UK - ok!
Other Comments by majordomo
37. Comment #217045 by Goldy on July 23, 2008 at 8:44 pm
I hate being in a differnt time zone!!Tell me about it! Trouble with being in NZ, I'm in a different day zone too! Where are you?
I always miss out on the discussions!
Other Comments by Goldy
38. Comment #217046 by mordacious1 on July 23, 2008 at 8:48 pm
GoldyThe true way is Islam, the word of the Prophet, christianity is not following our God Allah. (btw, we get the virgins, heh heh heh)
Other Comments by mordacious1
39. Comment #217049 by Brian English on July 23, 2008 at 8:58 pm
Goldy, stop ya winging. You get to chat with me because of similar timezones.You mean you dont wanna chat with me? ***pouts***
Other Comments by Brian English
40. Comment #217051 by Goldy on July 23, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Mordacious, the only way to salvation is through Christ! We don't need virgins - we're too arrogant and self-centred to attract any women. Besides, we don't like them - Paul told us so.Brian, I love talking to you. Ummm....whatcha doing now? Hey, you're in Melbourne, right? Can you find out how much it costs to send a dashboard to NZ? Got an Alfa one in Melb with friends...after 2 years, I think they'd like me to pick it up...
Other Comments by Goldy
41. Comment #217052 by Radesq on July 23, 2008 at 9:07 pm
Sorry, I got distracted by a repeat of the South Park "Hare Club for Men" Easter Special. What were we talking about. Other Comments by Radesq
42. Comment #217053 by Goldy on July 23, 2008 at 9:08 pm
RadChristianity vs Islam.
Mord, also, we get booze and we get to do cannibalism...albeit with a biscuit. Hah! That beats virgins anytime!
Other Comments by Goldy
43. Comment #217054 by CocoCantare on July 23, 2008 at 9:10 pm
So, Mordacious, what happens to the heavenly virgins after they've been, ahem, devirginized? Other Comments by CocoCantare
44. Comment #217056 by Radesq on July 23, 2008 at 9:13 pm
Hippitus Hoppitus Deus Dominay...if I remember right Bill Donohue of the Catholic League makes a guest appearance in this one. Other Comments by Radesq
45. Comment #217057 by Brian English on July 23, 2008 at 9:14 pm
Coco I believe the hymen is immaculately reconceived or something.......Other Comments by Brian English
46. Comment #217058 by CocoCantare on July 23, 2008 at 9:18 pm
Yeah, but that lovely part of the female isn't the reason why virgins are so appetizing, right? Come to think of it, why is it there in the first place? Here I am a female and I'm wondering about muslim heavenly virgins and the mysteries of my own genitalia. . . must be the whiskey sour I'm sipping on. Other Comments by CocoCantare
47. Comment #217059 by Brian English on July 23, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Coco, I presume the reason virgins are appetizing is either 1) property rights, you can be surer your kid isn't someone else's if your wife hasn't done the funky monkey before as she won't be pregnant and may stay faithful to you if she's a good girl. This means someone else's kid doesn't inherit your stuff. 2) You don't have to worry about an god awful performance because hopefully she'll be so ignorant of sex that a sexually repressed guy's pathetic thrusts and painful groping will be considered her duty and 3) maybe she won't then enjoy it (thus not be tempted to do said monkey with any other guy; see point 1).That's what I presume is behind religion's view that female sexuality is a dangerous thing and thus they must be virgins or pregnant to be good....
Other Comments by Brian English
48. Comment #217060 by thewhitepearl on July 23, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Sorry, I got distracted by a repeat of the South Park "Hare Club for Men" Easter Special. What were we talking about
I love that one! Hippitus, hopitus...They had the one where kenny inhabits cartman's body and stan unwilling becomes a psychic on earlier over in these here parts..
On christianity vs. islam, I vote christianity, otherwise I would have been stoned to death a long time ago. At least in christianity i can pick and choose what i want to believe in from the bible and still be socially accepted. Besides, this is a christian country and all that jazz.
I wish richard morgan and joe were here to battle it out. Baby christian vs. baby muslim...Both over eager to spread their gospels. Meh but joe's kind of a headache.
Coco, were you lurking during the time of Richie Morgan? I cant recall you having the pleasure of being around the thread when he's around.
[edit] Coco,
The hymen is a vestigal membrane. I don't think there are any definite known causes for it. We aren't the only mammals that have them however.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
49. Comment #217061 by CocoCantare on July 23, 2008 at 9:27 pm
twp, yes, I've notice this dick, er, richard fellow. Am I right in that he was a common atheist on this site and now is born again or something to that effect? Other Comments by CocoCantare
50. Comment #217062 by Radesq on July 23, 2008 at 9:30 pm
Wow Brian that's pretty involved. I just assumed that "new girl smell" was the selling point sort of like cars.e~ Coco, Richard Morgan would take offense to being called a common anything I suspect.
Other Comments by Radesq
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1. Comment #216990 by Thurston on July 23, 2008 at 6:58 pm
That seems to sum up nicely the Cardinal's nonsensical pronouncements. "Since the fall of Adam" indeed! Bloody fool!
Other Comments by Thurston