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Escape or betrayal.
by Guardian
Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/24/religion.middleeast
Escape – or betrayal?
Why Muslim women who are oppressed by their families are often reluctant to break free
Whenever another honour killing hits the headlines or another Muslim female is vaporised into a forced marriage, the question I get asked more than any other is: "Why don't these women just leave?"
Even though the sense of intimidation and menace these women are subject to may be palpable, the answer to this question is not a simple one. There are many reasons why women who live in non-Muslim societies in the west and have the ability to leave their families in search of a better life do not do so. First and foremost however, what needs to be identified is that most Muslim societies exist in cultures where the authority of the family is overarching.
When a woman flees a forced marriage, a threatening brother or even the risk of death, as far as she is concerned she also leaves behind not only that but sisters, aunts, cousins, an entire culture, a belief system and closely interwoven units. The burden of honour, the shared ownership of the ramifications of her choices, stretches out across the lattice of her family and renders every move she makes magnitudinous, sending waves rippling and tainting hapless family members on the fringes of the epicentre.
The thought of escape conjures up images of innocent younger sisters shamed and abandoned, growing up in the shadow of her dishonour, and mothers who did their best to provide more freedom than her father would have allowed, crushed – their faith and trust in her flung back in their faces. To that she will add the vision of countless family members and friends who invested in her, gave her succour with a kind word or a gesture of understanding.
Emotionally blackmailed, it is difficult for her to view an escape as a heroic brave leap; the huge number of those she hurts and the dearth of those she benefits make it seem a selfish, cowardly endeavour. Surely, she thinks, it is more commendable to sacrifice oneself on the altar and at least elicit some satisfaction from one's martyrdom, than it is to bolt?
Besides, what is on the other side? The liberal ideals of a western culture do not a family make. She might have her freedom but who to share it with? She may fall in love, but who to rejoice with? From within the cultural outlook of a traditional family, it is difficult to envision the friends, colleagues and significant others who would potentially, eventually, come to be a comforting network. She thinks about the fact that by leaving behind her family, she truncates their existence in her life, freezing them out and precluding her children from the pleasure of maternal grandparents, aunts and uncles.
But it does not occur to her that their presence in her life may guarantee her daughters the same fate and that raising children within the same value system would predestine them to the very same dynamic she strove to escape. Bereft of all links to her prior life, she alone must impart her own genesis to her offspring, a heavy burden under which to traipse into womanhood.
The prospect of succumbing gradually thus becomes less daunting and is not necessarily an either/or. Muslim women more often than not are allowed, indeed encouraged, to get an education, a decent job as long as it is within the confines of the respectable parameters prescribed by family and milieu – not always a fate dire enough to warrant or justify a wholesale uprooting.
A cousin of mine once rejected a suitor to whom she had already been promised by her family. As her mother wept in anticipation of the perceived disgrace, an aunt gently whispered to her that she should "marry him, become a doctor, have children and buy some pretty curtains". And so she did. Was she forced? No. Not in a classic honour-based, violent way. But little enforcement comes in the way of physical violence; most is psychological and hence more insidious.
This dictatorship of the family is a result of a complex interplay between social pressures, cultural heritage and religious observance and is not a Muslim issue as much as it is a cultural one. The elders of a family are victim to these structures almost as much as their daughters, forced to choose between powerful parental instincts and their perception of themselves and their offspring as part of a tightly woven fabric, the rupture of which assails their very identity and self-perception.
In contrast to societies where individual opportunity and achievement are championed, Arab culture in particular subscribes to a more sober view of individualism, even more so in women, and is suspicious of all endeavours that do not run in tandem with the values of the group. This contributes to a way of life where the suppression of individual desire is likely and one's personal feelings, preferences or fears shrink in comparison to the grandeur of powerful existing structures, where these values have been so internalised that the injured party may even have sympathy for his/her oppressors, cognisant of their helplessness against their indoctrination, seriously believing no one person is evil or fully culpable. This ring fence applies to men as well as women, granted with a larger circumference for male members of the clan.
Of course, it is not just a religious issue; the pull of the eternal deep-rooted institution is omnipresent – be it religion, nationality, race or class. Only a few decades ago, inter-racial marriage came with the threat of familial excommunication, and if none had raised their heads above the parapet it would have stayed that way.
This conflict between the temporal and the ostensibly eternal is what is important. Whether it is campaigns to combat forced marriage in Muslim and non-Muslim Asian communities or honour killings in Arab regions like Jordan and Iraq, efforts need to be made to not only identify girls and women at risk but to provide mentors, sponsors and look to create alternative networks to make a break less daunting.
Evidently, not all Muslim women are oppressed but many are, and the high-profile stories in the media are only the most extreme manifestations, the tip of an iceberg of a silent mass of women living lives of quiet desperation.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/jul/24/religion.middleeast
Escape – or betrayal?
Why Muslim women who are oppressed by their families are often reluctant to break free
Whenever another honour killing hits the headlines or another Muslim female is vaporised into a forced marriage, the question I get asked more than any other is: "Why don't these women just leave?"
Even though the sense of intimidation and menace these women are subject to may be palpable, the answer to this question is not a simple one. There are many reasons why women who live in non-Muslim societies in the west and have the ability to leave their families in search of a better life do not do so. First and foremost however, what needs to be identified is that most Muslim societies exist in cultures where the authority of the family is overarching.
When a woman flees a forced marriage, a threatening brother or even the risk of death, as far as she is concerned she also leaves behind not only that but sisters, aunts, cousins, an entire culture, a belief system and closely interwoven units. The burden of honour, the shared ownership of the ramifications of her choices, stretches out across the lattice of her family and renders every move she makes magnitudinous, sending waves rippling and tainting hapless family members on the fringes of the epicentre.
The thought of escape conjures up images of innocent younger sisters shamed and abandoned, growing up in the shadow of her dishonour, and mothers who did their best to provide more freedom than her father would have allowed, crushed – their faith and trust in her flung back in their faces. To that she will add the vision of countless family members and friends who invested in her, gave her succour with a kind word or a gesture of understanding.
Emotionally blackmailed, it is difficult for her to view an escape as a heroic brave leap; the huge number of those she hurts and the dearth of those she benefits make it seem a selfish, cowardly endeavour. Surely, she thinks, it is more commendable to sacrifice oneself on the altar and at least elicit some satisfaction from one's martyrdom, than it is to bolt?
Besides, what is on the other side? The liberal ideals of a western culture do not a family make. She might have her freedom but who to share it with? She may fall in love, but who to rejoice with? From within the cultural outlook of a traditional family, it is difficult to envision the friends, colleagues and significant others who would potentially, eventually, come to be a comforting network. She thinks about the fact that by leaving behind her family, she truncates their existence in her life, freezing them out and precluding her children from the pleasure of maternal grandparents, aunts and uncles.
But it does not occur to her that their presence in her life may guarantee her daughters the same fate and that raising children within the same value system would predestine them to the very same dynamic she strove to escape. Bereft of all links to her prior life, she alone must impart her own genesis to her offspring, a heavy burden under which to traipse into womanhood.
The prospect of succumbing gradually thus becomes less daunting and is not necessarily an either/or. Muslim women more often than not are allowed, indeed encouraged, to get an education, a decent job as long as it is within the confines of the respectable parameters prescribed by family and milieu – not always a fate dire enough to warrant or justify a wholesale uprooting.
A cousin of mine once rejected a suitor to whom she had already been promised by her family. As her mother wept in anticipation of the perceived disgrace, an aunt gently whispered to her that she should "marry him, become a doctor, have children and buy some pretty curtains". And so she did. Was she forced? No. Not in a classic honour-based, violent way. But little enforcement comes in the way of physical violence; most is psychological and hence more insidious.
This dictatorship of the family is a result of a complex interplay between social pressures, cultural heritage and religious observance and is not a Muslim issue as much as it is a cultural one. The elders of a family are victim to these structures almost as much as their daughters, forced to choose between powerful parental instincts and their perception of themselves and their offspring as part of a tightly woven fabric, the rupture of which assails their very identity and self-perception.
In contrast to societies where individual opportunity and achievement are championed, Arab culture in particular subscribes to a more sober view of individualism, even more so in women, and is suspicious of all endeavours that do not run in tandem with the values of the group. This contributes to a way of life where the suppression of individual desire is likely and one's personal feelings, preferences or fears shrink in comparison to the grandeur of powerful existing structures, where these values have been so internalised that the injured party may even have sympathy for his/her oppressors, cognisant of their helplessness against their indoctrination, seriously believing no one person is evil or fully culpable. This ring fence applies to men as well as women, granted with a larger circumference for male members of the clan.
Of course, it is not just a religious issue; the pull of the eternal deep-rooted institution is omnipresent – be it religion, nationality, race or class. Only a few decades ago, inter-racial marriage came with the threat of familial excommunication, and if none had raised their heads above the parapet it would have stayed that way.
This conflict between the temporal and the ostensibly eternal is what is important. Whether it is campaigns to combat forced marriage in Muslim and non-Muslim Asian communities or honour killings in Arab regions like Jordan and Iraq, efforts need to be made to not only identify girls and women at risk but to provide mentors, sponsors and look to create alternative networks to make a break less daunting.
Evidently, not all Muslim women are oppressed but many are, and the high-profile stories in the media are only the most extreme manifestations, the tip of an iceberg of a silent mass of women living lives of quiet desperation.
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Posted: Thursday, July 24, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 51 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #217538 by Naturalist1 on July 24, 2008 at 12:20 pm
This posting brings to mind Ayaan Hirsi Ali. All she has endured and all she has given up for her convictions. She has said in the past she can never contact her family again.
I so admire her courage.
Other Comments by Naturalist1
3. Comment #217605 by radiohead on July 24, 2008 at 1:06 pm
Hmmmmmm I don't like the tone of this article. It seems to me to be a masterpiece of politically correct obfuscation. If this happened in a secular white community there would be howls of protest, front page condemnations and politicians falling over themselves to scorn it. But white guilt has stopped us--well most of us from criticising this institutional and divinely sanctioned misogyny.The author does raise some interesting points about the emotional blackmail prevalent in it and how their families can suffer if they (the young women) decided to seek their freedom from being sexual livestock.
The fact that this is so is even more reason we must destroy Islam as a supposed valid and ethical belief system in the 21st century.
Best and be well.
Michael Faulkner.
Other Comments by radiohead
4. Comment #217629 by rod-the-farmer on July 24, 2008 at 1:21 pm
For several years now I have suggested one small way we in the west can individually contribute to changing this situation. Many of us have heard of the so-called "green" investment funds. These purport to invest your savings only in those companies which are environmentally sensitive, and practice this sort of thing in whatever industrial processes they use to run their businesses. I suggest now is the time for a "gender equality" fund. Monies sent to whoever operates it will only be invested in organisations and countries where gender equality is the norm. Those countries who do not offer women equal access to education, to travel, to clothing, jobs etc. will find the managers of this fund will tell them "Sorry, our members do not support your policies re gender equality. Under our rules we are forbidden to invest money in your country."
This works at a secondary level as well. Company A may indeed be gender neutral. But if they OPERATE in a non-neutral country, the fund manager would say the same thing.
"Sorry, our members do not support that regime due to their inequality of sexes. We can't invest our money in your COMPANY because you have offices there, AND sexual equality is not present in those offices."
Those countries who want our investments, would have to start changing their policies re sexual equality. No one is forced to, as these are sovereign states. Who knows, it may even become a badge of honour, to be able to say (in addition to ISO9001, for example) that your company/country is on the gender equality "approved" list.
I suspect a great many women would direct their investments to such a fund, and maybe many men. A simple rationale for doing so is that with only 50% of the population participating fully in society, they would seem to be less efficient than a country with women playing a full role. Anyone with any familiarity with the female of the species knows full well they bring a different insight to problem solving. And in the west, it has become obvious that women control a growing piece of the financial pie, both as single women and in a marriage.
Are there any fund managers on this site, who could set up such a scheme ? I would contact my financial advisor if one were to become available.
Other Comments by rod-the-farmer
5. Comment #217632 by fizhburn on July 24, 2008 at 1:25 pm
It would be interesting to see where the specifics of Islam come apart from institutionalized misogyny in majority-muslim cultures, and where they don't. Surely someone knows where this research is even now being carried out? Other Comments by fizhburn
6. Comment #217645 by Border Collie on July 24, 2008 at 1:49 pm
This is not just an (middle) Eastern issue. There are millions of American women (and men) in horrible, abusive, life-threatening relationships which they are afraid to leave because of social/cultural, religious, financial, family, whatever pressure ... Why don't they just leave? Fear.Other Comments by Border Collie
7. Comment #217676 by amalthea on July 24, 2008 at 2:22 pm
Rod. Erudite as ever. Definitely a long term solution, but I have a friend who's sister may be stoned to death because she was raped by a cousin. Yep, I know, it's harsh, and all I can see is that religion (chooose a name) is just control, mostly by men, mostly to control other men, but especially women.So, for these women, what is the way out? There won't be a sexual revolution in Iran anytime soon. The 'West' won't agree not to buy oil or embargo these countries, so what is the answer?
We have the luxury of the internet, we watch Ayaan Hirsi Ali and admire her courage. But there are thousands, if not millions, of women who have no way to see that they are not the only ones in this predicament.
The only real path is to completely and utterly destroy faith in religion, to make it acceptable for a child to go to school and not be preached at, To make it practically illegal to indoctrinate children, and ro make door-to-door preaching a crime.
Sorry if I sound a little bitter, but my friend's sister may be dead soon, just becasue a 'man' couldn't keep it in his pants. So much for civilisation.
A
Other Comments by amalthea
8. Comment #217719 by theantitheist on July 24, 2008 at 2:55 pm
Very enlightening article in my opinion.
Amalthea, Words can't be found for the situation, hope things work out for the best.
Other Comments by theantitheist
9. Comment #217781 by ibelson on July 24, 2008 at 4:08 pm
Islam is obviously not the only religion wherein emotional blackmail is used to keep people within the true faith. Most dogmatic or fundamentalist religions will threaten social isolation from freinds and family if a person begins to stray from its rigid rules. In Orthodox Judaism for instance social ostracizing an errant family or community member who might consider nonwork related social fraternizing with a nonJew is routinely practiced. The whole concept of Kosher is for the purpose of building a "fence around the Torah, the individual and the Jewish community. It is probably one of the elements responsible for Judaim's long survival but has also had a devistating effect on emotonal lives of many individuals. It takes a tremendous amount of courage and emotional strength to break away from your social support network and strike out often totally on your own. That is why nonreligious social and financial networks such as Rod is suggesting are so critically important.Other Comments by ibelson
10. Comment #217827 by kaiserkriss on July 24, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Farmer, While I think the sentiment of your argument is good, the reality is, it won't work that way.
I would much rather invest in a company that has a policy of providing free education to women for example in a Muslim country. Work the system from the inside until the stupidity of the current situation is realized. Women are potential mothers, educated women will put up less with fuundies clap trap, and educate their sons accordingly. It might take a couple of generations, but eventually, this approach will work. jcw
PS I am about to put MY money where my mouth is on this issue.
Other Comments by kaiserkriss
11. Comment #217848 by Godfree Gordon on July 24, 2008 at 5:46 pm
Border Collie and iblesen
The more I read the more I understand that these systems of mysogyny pre-date Islam/Judaism/Christianity. (For some good reads try also Elephant Walk and The Bookseller of Kabul as well of course as Ayaan Hirsi Ali). But as always, the opportunist religions will adopt any control system to suit their means and ends.
The Koraniacs therefore are just doing as the Mor(m)ons do and the Jews do.
For us middle aged white folk its like trying to understand the horrors of the Great Wars never having been in one, or lived through their consequences. We can easily say "just leave".
Try leaving Earth, and living on the Moon.
Lets take Rods lead and come up with some strategies to help.
Other Comments by Godfree Gordon
12. Comment #217900 by NakedCelt on July 24, 2008 at 6:36 pm
Are you getting this, Fanusi? This is point #13 from our little exchange.Other Comments by NakedCelt
13. Comment #217957 by funflower on July 24, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Enlightenment comes to a society through education. Since the internet is the beset educational tool I can think of, my personal favorite idea for a charitable effort that would help bring enlightenment to primitive societies and subcultures, is a nonprofit that would fund translation of internet sites (such as this one)into Arabic and other languages that can be read by people in especially oppressive cultures.Other Comments by funflower
14. Comment #218021 by Black-Mamba on July 24, 2008 at 9:11 pm
I'm sick of these lies but lying scumbag media hungry anti islamists.Women have much more rights in islam today than they ever had. They can leave whenever they want. I'm tired of people only focusing on the beliefs of the radicals. The majority of muslim people do not find the behavior of radicals acceptable. You just want to fit it in your own little box so that you have an excuse to be atheist or whatever other religion you follow.
I find it amusing how people who aren't in a religion think they know it all.
Stop focusing on the bad in islam and start focusing on yourselves. Get your own lives together, you godless blasphemic heathens.
Other Comments by Black-Mamba
15. Comment #218080 by dlitt on July 24, 2008 at 9:56 pm
If this article were in a Canadian publication it would incur the wrath of our Human Rights Council. Other Comments by dlitt
16. Comment #218149 by Enlightenme.. on July 25, 2008 at 12:07 am
14. Comment #218021 by Black-Mamba on July 24, 2008
"I'm sick of these lies but lying scumbag media hungry anti islamists"
Follow the link to the article, you dolt.
Then you can follow the further link in the first sentence of her article (if you can bear to read it)
Nesrine Malik is not an 'anti islamist'.
The previous article by her for the grauniad was;
Jul 14 2008: Nesrine Malik: We certainly need more freedom to question our faith without being accused of rejecting it ..
Oh, and by the way, we do not need "an excuse" to be "godless blasphemic heathens".
:)
Other Comments by Enlightenme..
17. Comment #218151 by epeeist on July 25, 2008 at 12:42 am
Comment #218149 by Enlightenme..Oh, and by the way, we do not need "an excuse" to be "godless blasphemic heathens".Isn't a little difficult to blaspheme if we are godless any way.
Other Comments by epeeist
18. Comment #218157 by Paul42 on July 25, 2008 at 1:04 am
Comment by "black-mamba..."Moderate" Muslims do not exist.
"Moderate" Christians do not exist.
Either you follow your "holy" book and the rules of your "holy" men to the letter or not... If not, then you are not a part of that religion.
ALL religion is false, harmful and MUST be stopped.
No apologies, no concessions.
Your argument is just the old and very tired "that's not MY Islam they're talking about"
Women can be trapped in abusive relationships in any culture... But when men can invoke a "divine" rationale for the abuse, such as fear of hell, surely this is far worse.
The key to killing religious belief is freeing children and women from indoctrination.
Sounds easy when you say it quickly...
Love.
Other Comments by Paul42
19. Comment #218159 by Enlightenme.. on July 25, 2008 at 1:05 am
^^ Oh, please don't be a spoilsport!, can we still be heathens? Other Comments by Enlightenme..
20. Comment #218160 by DamnDirtyApe on July 25, 2008 at 1:11 am
14. Comment #218021 by Black-Mamba on July 24, 2008 at 9:11 pmI will stop thinking poorly of religion when people who identify themselves as religious stop doing awful things in the name of religion, and stop using their religious organisations to cover their own tracks when they do something grossly unethical.
Good luck with that.
Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
21. Comment #218165 by PJG on July 25, 2008 at 1:32 am
I find it amusing how people who aren't in a religion think they know it all.
Interesting. My experience of the non-religious is that they are the quickest to acknowledge that, not only do they most certainly not "know it all", but they accept that they cannot know it all. What they do not do is fill in the gaps with magic.
Other Comments by PJG
22. Comment #218171 by LaTomate on July 25, 2008 at 1:48 am
It is a pretty well known fact that many women who suffer from domestic abuse, be they Muslim or not, have a very difficult time severing their bond with the abuser. It is very hard to help them get out of their situation as well. One of my good friends who suffered for years (her daughters also got beaten sometimes) is divorcing and is now fighting back. She is not a Muslim at all, rather a "secular catholic". I wish her all the best.
What is sure though is that in the Muslim world it is a lot harder to get out of the situation, since most Sharia courts would grant custody of the children to the abusive father.
Other Comments by LaTomate
23. Comment #218178 by Communist on July 25, 2008 at 3:06 am
Black-Mamba wrote:
I'm sick of these lies but lying scumbag media hungry anti islamists.
Women have much more rights in islam today than they ever had. They can leave whenever they want. I'm tired of people only focusing on the beliefs of the radicals. The majority of muslim people do not find the behavior of radicals acceptable. You just want to fit it in your own little box so that you have an excuse to be atheist or whatever other religion you follow.
I find it amusing how people who aren't in a religion think they know it all.
Stop focusing on the bad in islam and start focusing on yourselves. Get your own lives together, you godless blasphemic heathens.
This response is so typical and tiresome. I propose what I like to call the Aleister Crowley test. The Aleister Crowley test goes as follows: Take any point of view that religious or culturally intensive people have, and then imagine that a secular spokesperson og movement expressed that same point of view, and imagine the public reaction.
Black-Mamba claims that women in islam can leave whenever they want. The fact is that even moderate islamic scholars think that it is too easy for women to get a divorce in secular sosieties. And the lack of academic progress, the lack of gay liberation and the lack of good female athletes in the islamic world as well as in muslim communities show that it's not just a problem among a small number of 'radicals' (who ought to be called reactionaries instead).
And does Black-Mamba really think I need an excuse to be atheist? Then what is his/hers excuse for being a muslim?
I don't think I 'know it all' about islam. I don't think I know everything about the ancient religion of my viking forefathers either. I nevertheless haven't seen anything that has impressed me so far, and Allah is for me is exactly as probable as a real entity in the universe as Thor with his hammer is.
And the last sentence in Black-mamba's post is just an evasive move. Secular people (and marxists in particular) are in general much more capable of self criticism than religious people are.
Other Comments by Communist
24. Comment #218180 by hungarianelephant on July 25, 2008 at 3:15 am
Maybe I'm missing something, but what does this have to do with Islam? Forced marriage, culture of "dishonour" etc. are aspects of a stupid, backward cultural construct, not a stupid, backward religious construct.If we wanted to talk about the political fudging of these issues, including by the writer, I could see the point.
Other Comments by hungarianelephant
25. Comment #218182 by Duff on July 25, 2008 at 3:20 am
Black Mamba,Another "its not my religion you're talking about" response. If your religion weren't so dangerous, you would be rib-cracking, bloody hilarious!
Other Comments by Duff
26. Comment #218184 by DamnDirtyApe on July 25, 2008 at 3:26 am
Well, Honour killings are probably more cultural than explicitly religious (edit - although it IS in holy books of the big 3 religions), same with FGM. But I have heard of cases where the two really blur.
You can attribute bad culture as maybe even a more overbearing issue than religious denomination. Religion isn't really much of a threat when the culture instigating it doesn't take it literally. Tradition is fine if its benign (hey i did a rhyme).
Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
27. Comment #218188 by Ygern on July 25, 2008 at 3:46 am
Comment #218151 by epeeistIsn't a little difficult to blaspheme if we are godless any way.
Only if you insist on being rational about it :)
Blasphemy is in the eye of the beholder.
Other Comments by Ygern
28. Comment #218189 by irate_atheist on July 25, 2008 at 3:49 am
14. Comment #218021 by Black-Mamba -
I find it amusing how people who
- That the universe was 'created'
- That it was created by an omnipotent creature (unevolved).
- That this creature intervenes in the minutiae of that Universe.
- That the thoughts and opinions of this creature are documented in a book cobbled together from the writings of ignorant, superstious, uneducated animal-sacrifing primitives between 1500 and 3000 years ago (depending on the book)
- That believing the above should be afforded any respect whatsoever in an age when we have:
a) Walked on the moon.
b) Split the atom
c) and can pinpoint devices to within a few metres anywhere on the surface of the Earth using - you guessed it - scientific principles including Einsteins Theory of Relativity.
Want to try playing a 'spot the fucktard game'?
Yep, that's right, well spotted. You are the fucktard.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
29. Comment #218192 by Christopher Davis on July 25, 2008 at 4:00 am
Black Mamba,
I'm currently in Paktika Province, Afghanistan. Can you please send me the names and addresses of these liberated Muslim women that you speak of. So far the only one's I have seen are either herding goats or hauling enormous bundles of shit on their heads while the men sit and pick their asses.
I am over here working to improve the quality of life for the Pashtun people, but as I am not "inside the religion" I am sure there is something I am missing. Your help would be greatly appreciated, as I hope to quickly aid these egalitarian peace-lovers so I can go home.
Sincerely,
Christopher Davis
Other Comments by Christopher Davis
30. Comment #218193 by epeeist on July 25, 2008 at 4:00 am
Comment #218189 by irate_atheistIf you look at differential GPS you get even better accuracy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_GPS#Accuracy
and can pinpoint devices to within a few metres anywhere on the surface of the Earth using - you guessed it - scientific principles including Einsteins Theory of Relativity.
And of course, Quantum Field Theory, one of the great physical theories of the 20th century, gives even better accuracy, using Feyman's analogy it is like "measuring the distance between New York and Los Angeles to the width of a human hair."
Other Comments by epeeist
31. Comment #218200 by epeeist on July 25, 2008 at 4:09 am
Comment #218192 by Christopher DavisAnd while you are at it do you want to have a glance at the comments of your fellow religite Joe Morreale, especially ones like http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2833,UPDATED-Venomous-Snakes-Slippery-Eels-and-Harun-Yahya,Richard-Dawkins,page46#215719 and then tell us that your particular death cult isn't misogynistic.
I'm currently in Paktika Province, Afghanistan. Can you please send me the names and addresses of these liberated Muslim women that you speak of. So far the only one's I have seen are either herding goats or hauling enormous bundles of shit on their heads while the men sit and pick their asses.
Other Comments by epeeist
32. Comment #218208 by irate_atheist on July 25, 2008 at 4:18 am
30. Comment #218193 by epeeist -If you look at differential GPS you get even better accuracy - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_GPS#Accuracy"Impressive. Most impressive" - D Vader
Other Comments by irate_atheist
33. Comment #218214 by Vaal on July 25, 2008 at 4:28 am
Interesting that she calls herself Black Mamba. Is this because she is walking around dressed up as Darth Vader covered from head to foot as her misogynistic religion considers every man as some sort of sexual predator? I think it says more about paedophile Teddy Bear Mohammad's (worms be upon him) regard of women being nothing more than breeding cows and virtual slaves than anything else.
I suggest Black Mamba that you read some stories from women who have escaped the horrors of Islam before you demonstrate your bigotry to us. I suggest "Infidel" by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, amongst others.
Other Comments by Vaal
34. Comment #218223 by decius on July 25, 2008 at 4:57 am
Comment #218180 by hungarianelephant Maybe I'm missing something, but what does this have to do with Islam?
I think you are. Those backward social constructs are hailed as virtues by the q'ran and positively encouraged by the hadiths.
The dangerous meme holding that a pious muslim should follow in the footsteps of Mohammed, who in turn indulged in all sort of misogynistic behaviour, is another factor to be taken into account.
Other Comments by decius
35. Comment #218230 by rod-the-farmer on July 25, 2008 at 5:17 am
Re Comment #217827 by kaiserkrissFarmer, While I think the sentiment of your argument is good, the reality is, it won't work that way.
I would much rather invest in a company that has a policy of providing free education to women for example in a Muslim country. Work the system from the inside until the stupidity of the current situation is realized.
I support your idea of helping educate women. However, what I have read about this tactic, in Afghanistan at least, is that people like the Taliban destroy the schools, and attack the young women who attend. I am concerned as to what would happen to muslim women, once they ARE educated. Will they be able to find jobs ? Radical muslim men seem bent on preventing the education of women, other than perhaps how to perform menial tasks. And it even seems some muslim women support this sort of thing, as "unseemly" for muslim women. I am reminded that Adam & Eve were forbidden to eat from the Tree of Knowledge. How telling is THAT !
I can't speak about schools in other muslim countries, but I suspect it is better, although I did read an article about university in Pakistan, where the female students were pretty much cowed into silence during classes.
I see the problem here as one where many (perhaps most) muslim men remain convinced women are second-class citizens. It is the right of men to treat women as brood mares. So perhaps in addition to educating women using your suggestion, we work on the men, using mine. If the men understand they will not see any of MY western money, due to their treatment of women, that may be an incentive to change, coming from within. But I agree it will be a long row to hoe. I cannot get out of my mind that video of the Cohen character who emigrated from the U.S., and converted from being a jew, to a muslim, complete with complaining to RD that he "allowed" his (western) women to dress like prostitutes, in Cohens' eyes. I'd like to ask him why he "allows" his own women to dress like they have leprosy.
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36. Comment #218235 by Christopher Davis on July 25, 2008 at 5:27 am
"However, what I have read about this tactic, in Afghanistan at least, is that people like the Taliban destroy the schools, and attack the young women who attend."---rod-the-farmer
That is exactly what happens here...except that the Taliban (and various other jihad wannabes) don't stop just with the girls. The radicals here don't like the idea of anybody getting an education in a school built by westerners (even though we have no input to the curriculum). In their minds the only education needed is a madrassa education where you sit around and memorize the Koran through reciting what the mullah tells you the passage says ("real" Korans are in Arabic, the language in this are is Pashto...96% of the population read neither).
Oh, and as far as I know, girls don't go to madrassa.
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37. Comment #218237 by hungarianelephant on July 25, 2008 at 5:31 am
34. Comment #218223 by decius on July 25, 2008 at 4:57 amI think you are. Those backward social constructs are hailed as virtues by the q'ran and positively encouraged by the hadiths.
The dangerous meme holding that a pious muslim should follow in the footsteps of Mohammed, who in turn indulged in all sort of misogynistic behaviour, is another factor to be taken into account.
That is a fair point. I'm not entirely sure which of these practices are encouraged by the hadiths and which are essentially cultural. Certainly they are not universal. For example, I understand from people of Bangladeshi ancestry that custom and practice there requires that the parents arrange a marriage, but may not force it: the protagonists still have to agree to it. And they agree that this has nothing to do with their religion.
Of course, it's right to point out that misogyny generally is required of all Muslims.
As DamnDirtyApe noted FGM earlier, I should regurgitate a statistic I heard recently. In (Orthodox Christian) Ethiopia, of the order of 24 million girls have been mutilated these last 25 years, resulting in around 3 million deaths, or as many dead females as in the Holocaust.
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38. Comment #218272 by decius on July 25, 2008 at 6:26 am
Comment #218237 by hungarianelephantI'm not entirely sure which of these practices are encouraged by the hadiths and which are essentially cultural.
There is no real demarcation, it's more of a self-sustaining loop. The problem with the hadiths is that they provide a ready self-righteous rationalisation to primitive practises and low instincts, to the point of elevating them to sacred duties.
It is true that different traditions translate into different interpretations, and attempting to draw universal conclusions is simplistic.
However, to throw the ball into your field while looking for a fil rouge, consider those places where the hadiths have been enshrined into law.
Even leaving aside the most barbaric impositions exacted on women as a result, one of the universal principles contained in Sharia law is that the testimony of a man can be outset by that of (at least) two women. When not explicitly stated, the application of Sharia law never offers equal protection for men and women, and this is abundantly proven without exceptions.
Doesn't this in itself constitute pathological and endemic islamic misogyny, unrelated to cultural tradition?
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39. Comment #218282 by hungarianelephant on July 25, 2008 at 6:42 am
38. Comment #218272 by decius on July 25, 2008 at 6:26 amDoesn't this in itself constitute pathological and endemic islamic misogyny, unrelated to cultural tradition?
Yes, absolutely. There's no question that Islam is inherently misogynistic.
The problem is, even if it weren't, there's a substantial cultural issue to deal with. This insistence on forced marriage, respect for the family, honour culture etc. isn't solely a problem for women within these cultures. There are expectations on the male children too.
Perhaps I am trying to split hairs here, but there's an important point. Fanusi likes to tell us about the several million Africans who convert from Islam to Christianity every year, like it's a good thing. If they became the sort of Christians you get in Western Europe, or even the US, it certainly would be. If they bring all their tribal baggage with them (like the clitoris-hacking Christians of Ethiopia), then it's more open to quetsion.
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40. Comment #218298 by decius on July 25, 2008 at 7:09 am
Comment #218282 by hungarianelephant I agree.
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41. Comment #218303 by Ygern on July 25, 2008 at 7:26 am
Comment #218282 by hungarianelephantlike the clitoris-hacking Christians of Ethiopia
And that's not even necessarily the worst of it for a young Ethiopian female child: forced marriage and very under-age pregnancy often results in fistulas and then social exclusion.
http://ipsnews.net/interna.asp?idnews=22242
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42. Comment #218313 by jshuey on July 25, 2008 at 8:03 am
Perhaps needed even more than Rod's gender-equity investment fund is an escape fund.
Imagine an organization similar to America's 19th century "Underground Railroad", funded by all who hold freedom dear and chartered to provide those women who desire escape not only the means to so do, but also the requisite support to start over in their new homes.
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43. Comment #218331 by cowalker on July 25, 2008 at 8:54 am
Reply to Black-Mamba, comment #218021I find it amusing how people who aren't in a religion think they know it all.
Stop focusing on the bad in islam and start focusing on yourselves. Get your own lives together, you godless blasphemic heathens.
What on earth makes you think my life isn't together? I've raised my two kids to free-thinking adulthood. They are currently working on advanced degrees and living independently. My spouse is getting ready to retire. I'm hoping to work for another ten years because I like my job.
I was "in" a religion (Catholicism) forcibly for my first 18 years, and spent many years getting out of it emotionally after the early, intense indoctrination. My life has been lots better post-religion.
If you want to know why I'm concerned about extreme Islam, review the history of Sept. 11, 2001. Now please explain why there is no connection between what happened on that date and Islam.
I know that all Muslims aren't extreme, but some definitely are. The existence of moderate Muslims provides the environment that grows extremists, along with many other factors, of course. Some of those other factors are Western economic exploitation of other countries and Western support of Mideast rulers who use Islam to prop up bad governments. I hope to elect people in the U.S. who will also work on ending those bad practices.
But it's also true that if no one believed in Islam, there would be no theological support for stoning "adulterers," forcing women to marry the men of their father's choice, mutilating the genitals of young girls, or suicide-bombing people for being non-Muslim.
So I will continue to do what I can in the world to reduce belief in any kind of supernatural being, because nothing in my experience or in the experience of people whose rationality I respect supports such a belief. And it will prevent extremists from being able to use the moderates as cover for their irrational behavior.
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44. Comment #218343 by MatthaiNazrani on July 25, 2008 at 9:32 am
Comment #218021 by Black-Mamba:Women have much more rights in islam today than they ever had. They can leave whenever they want.
The ones in the West, I suppose, because I don't see any of that around me.
I'm tired of people only focusing on the beliefs of the radicals. The majority of muslim people do not find the behavior of radicals acceptable.
Again, you must be referring to the West. I even knew a young woman who celebrated 9/11 by distributing sweets.
You just want to fit it in your own little box so that you have an excuse to be atheist or whatever other religion you follow.
So to reverse that suggestion, I suppose that your excuse for believing in Islam is all the violence done in the name of other religions and atheism?
...you godless blasphemic heathens.
I won't blaspheme, I swear by Muhammad (paedophilia rap be upon him).
Oops.
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45. Comment #218349 by al-rawandi on July 25, 2008 at 9:44 am
Black Mamba,
Sorry I am late.
I'm sick of these lies but lying scumbag media hungry anti islamists.
Where did they lie, do you have any evidence? Stop drinking that camel urine (as Muhammad told you) and pay attention damn it.
Women have much more rights in islam today than they ever had.
There is a statement and a half. Look how shitty Muslim women have it and then say "Hey it used to be worse." Some history that religion has. After you survey the Muslim world and you see institutionalized gang rape, stoning of adulterers, forced marriage, child rape and sexual slavery of women and you say "Hey this is nothing compared to how it used to be."
I only wish this was comedy.
They can leave whenever they want.
Uhhh wrong again (as a Muslim I would think you might chance upon a correct statement on Islam, but apparently not).
Try this:
http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/honor_killings_islam_misogyny/
It is a list of all the women murdered by male relatives for not leaving Islam, but simply adjusting to western culture. Pictures are included, including some of the dead bodies of these women. Try the one where the woman had her face mutilated by her brother, she lived.
The majority of muslim people do not find the behavior of radicals acceptable.
Maybe not. But they sure as hell don't do anything to stop them. The only Muslims stopping them are brutal dictators and their Mukhabarat.
And btw Muhammad Bin Abd al-Wahhab, Ibn Hanbal, Imam Shafi,i, Sayyid Qutb, Muhammad Qutb, Osama Bin Laden, all these men have expounded the true Islam. They are best supported by the texts of Islam. They are the true Islam. These moderates practice a perverted form of Islam.
You just want to fit it in your own little box so that you have an excuse to be atheist or whatever other religion you follow.
I don't do this, and I am happy to debate you on any topic pertinent to Islam.
I find it amusing how people who aren't in a religion think they know it all
Let's debate Islam then. We can see who knows what.
Stop focusing on the bad in islam and start focusing on yourselves. Get your own lives together, you godless blasphemic heathens.
Excellent, the true Islam comes out. Let the hate consume you, Allah prefers it.
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46. Comment #218363 by MatthaiNazrani on July 25, 2008 at 10:05 am
Btw, Nesrine's article is spot on. I'm in southern India with an Eastern Christian background, but the same pattern exists here. It probably applies to women somewhat more forcefully, but as she says, men are also bound by the family/cultural pressure. I know that I feel it.Other Comments by MatthaiNazrani
47. Comment #218404 by crazy4blues on July 25, 2008 at 11:51 am
Hey, Black Mamba, I noticed that the time of your post is 9:11 pm. What, did you wait to hit the enter button or something?
Yeah, I know that this is a kinda dumb thing to say, but, given what you're on about, I think it fits, no?
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48. Comment #218408 by esuther on July 25, 2008 at 12:02 pm
>>>>>As DamnDirtyApe noted FGM earlier, I should regurgitate a statistic I heard recently. In (Orthodox Christian) Ethiopia, of the order of 24 million girls have been mutilated these last 25 years, resulting in around 3 million deaths, or as many dead females as in the Holocaust. <<<<<I would love to be able to track down this statistic. Can you provide any more information about its source?
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49. Comment #218743 by godisdead84 on July 25, 2008 at 4:35 pm
It's kind of depressing to read articles like this, because it's so true. having spent a number of years in Iraq and Afghanistan, I can attest to the fact that the societal structure does not allow for a woman to leave. An example: A female soldier (US) who was born and raised in Northern Iraq was acting as an interpreter for my unit. Aside from the death threats she recieved on a regular basis, she also had brothers in the US that actively hunted her down for breaking the mold and not being a good Muslim girl. This culminated with one of her brothers coming to the gate of her base and telling the gate guards to allow him inside so he could "take" his sister back where she belonged. All this because she wanted to attend college, marry someone she loved, and support a government that she felt was better than the one she had grown up under.I mention this only because even with a strong support structure of friends and co-workers, she still struggled with the "guilt" of having let down her family and disgracing her parents.
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50. Comment #218959 by Christopher Davis on July 25, 2008 at 9:56 pm
"This culminated with one of her brothers coming to the gate of her base and telling the gate guards to allow him inside so he could "take" his sister back where she belonged."---godisdead84
CAUTION! OBLIGATORY REDNECK REMARK
I wish the fucker would show up at my gate demanding some shit like that!
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