Sunday, July 27, 2008 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version

A third of Muslim students back killings

by Times Online

Reposted from:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4407115.ece

Radicalism and support for sharia is strong in British universities

ALMOST a third of British Muslim students believe killing in the name of Islam can be justified, according to a poll.

The study also found that two in five Muslims at university support the incorporation of Islamic sharia codes into British law.

The YouGov poll for the Centre for Social Cohesion (CSC) will raise concerns about the extent of campus radicalism. "Significant numbers appear to hold beliefs which contravene democratic values," said Han-nah Stuart, one of the report's authors. "These results are deeply embarrassing for those who have said there is no extremism in British universities."

The report was criticised by the country's largest Muslim student body, Fosis, but Anthony Glees, professor of security and intelligence studies at Buckingham University, said: "The finding that a large number of students think it is okay to kill in the name of religion is alarming.

"There is a wide cultural divide between Muslim and nonMuslim students. The solution is to stop talking about celebrating diversity and focus on integration and assimilation."

The researchers found that 55% of nonMuslim students thought Islam was incompatible with democracy. Nearly one in 10 had "little respect" for Muslims.

In addition to its poll of 1,400 Muslim and nonMuslim students, the centre visited more than 20 universities to interview students and listen to guest speakers. It found that extremist preachers regularly gave speeches that were inflammatory, homophobic or bordering on antisemitic.

The researchers highlighted Queen Mary college, part of London University, as a campus where radical views were widely held. Last December, a speaker named Abu Mujahid encouraged Muslim students to condemn gays because "Allah hates" homosexuality. In November, Azzam Tamimi, a British-based supporter of Hamas, described Israel as the most "inhumane project in the modern history of humanity".

James Brandon, deputy director at CSC , said: "Our researchers found a ghettoised mentality among Muslim students at Queen Mary. Also, we found the segregation between Muslim men and women at events more visible at Queen Mary."

A spokesman for Queen Mary said the university was aware the preachers had visited but did not know the contents of their speeches. "Clearly, we in no way associate ourselves with these views. However, also integral to the spirit of university life is free speech and debate and on occasion speakers will make statements that are deemed offensive."

In the report, 40% of Muslim students said it was unacceptable for Muslim men and women to associate freely. Homophobia was rife, with 25% saying they had little or no respect for gays. The figure was higher (32%) for male Muslim students. Among nonMuslims, the figure was only 4%.

The research found that a third of Muslim students supported the creation of a world-wide caliphate or Islamic state.

A number of terrorists have been radicalised at British universities. Kafeel Ahmed, who drove a flaming jeep into a building at Glasgow airport last year and died of his burns, is believed to have been radicalised while studying at Anglia Ruskin university, Cambridge.

Wes Streeting, president of the National Union of Students, condemned the study. "This disgusting report is a reflection of the biases and prejudices of a right-wing think tank — not the views of Muslim students across Britain," he said. "Only 632 Muslim students were asked vague and misleading questions, and their answers were wilfully misinterpreted."

Some of the findings amplify previous research. A report by Policy Exchange last year found that 37% of all Muslims aged 16-24 would prefer to live under a sharia system.

Baroness Warwick, chief executive of Universities UK, said: "Violence, or the incitement to violence, has no place on a university campus."

ALSO SEE:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jul/27/islam.highereducation

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1. Comment #219845 by Thurston on July 27, 2008 at 3:57 pm

All those theologians who accuse Dawkins of attacking strawmen and going for easy targets should read this. Terrifying!

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2. Comment #219847 by MrPinz on July 27, 2008 at 3:58 pm

can't we just all get along.....

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3. Comment #219849 by Goldy on July 27, 2008 at 4:00 pm

Was in the Telegraph on Friday, I think.
There are repercussions - these students must be careful what they wish for...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/2463208/Iraqs-Christians-form-new-militias-to-combat-Islamic-extremists.html

Other Comments by Goldy

4. Comment #219850 by mordacious1 on July 27, 2008 at 4:00 pm

This is a poll of university students, what some may consider "the cream of the crop". Egads.

[edit] Speeches "bordering on antisemetic", now the bordering part surprises me.

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5. Comment #219851 by Goldy on July 27, 2008 at 4:03 pm

Mordacious1 - students always want to shock. At least, I did :-) And I believe the the 1968 riots in Paris were blamed on students and the recipients of bullets at Tiananmen were also students. Half of the New Labour politicians I know of were, apparently, radical students - they are now very, very conservative :-)

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6. Comment #219853 by Cluebot on July 27, 2008 at 4:06 pm

I find these results profoundly disturbing - though not at all surprising.

It's evident from this report that religiously motivated incitement has already taken a place in our universities. I'd rather hear about what measures are being taken to eject it than Baroness Warwick's vacuous statement.

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7. Comment #219856 by mordacious1 on July 27, 2008 at 4:08 pm

Goldy

I can see students being radical. Usually this means turning away from what their parents taught them, or against the established norms that society has pushed on them. These guys take it in an opposite direction and become more religious and more hate filled. It would be like finding the Klan well established in universities in the U.S.

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8. Comment #219858 by Wosret on July 27, 2008 at 4:11 pm

Well damn. Scary. I can understand free speech and expression, but the university is under no obligation to grant hate-mongers a medium to spew their hate speech. They should be yelling it on the street from behind carbaord signs, like the rest of the lunatics.

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9. Comment #219860 by JEdward on July 27, 2008 at 4:15 pm

Once again we hear some people burying their heads in the sand when it comes to hard data on what people actually think.

Also, it has been suggest on the Times' reply board that "killing in the name of your religion" is no different from "killing in the name of your nation". From that angle, they say, it's entirely reasonable for someone to claim the first proposition is okay.

It's amazing how some people will bend over backwards to allow shocking and dangerous opinions go unchallenged.

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10. Comment #219863 by Goldy on July 27, 2008 at 4:18 pm

Mordacious, they probably are turning against the secularisation and westernisation of their parents. Who knows. Or maybe they are reacting to media portrayal of Islam.
http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2891,-Islam-subway-ads-cause-stir-in-New-York,CNN,page11#219843 is what Layla has to say of what Muslims might think...

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11. Comment #219865 by Brian English on July 27, 2008 at 4:19 pm

Goldy, have you read this?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/07/21/AR2008072102357.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

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12. Comment #219867 by Goldy on July 27, 2008 at 4:23 pm

Brian, nasty. Shame the Euro/US governments is so keen on keeping this family in power to rule the whole peninsula...

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13. Comment #219872 by mordacious1 on July 27, 2008 at 4:33 pm

Goldy

You're probably right, whatever the reason, it does seem to be popular to be a radical muslim among the islamic youth, which is going to be a problem for perhaps decades in the west. I suppose it's easy for an iman to say, "look what the americans are doing to the land of your ancestors" and get a knee-jerk reaction. I just hope enough of them get an education that gives them a different way to look at the world.

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14. Comment #219873 by kkelly on July 27, 2008 at 4:34 pm

I bet the media spun this with headlines like "Majority of Muslims Do Not Support Murder of Gays."

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15. Comment #219874 by Wosret on July 27, 2008 at 4:37 pm

14. Comment #219873 by kkelly

How gracious of them. I really hope the time never comes when the best thing that can be said about me is that I don't support the murdering of groups I disagree with/don't like.

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16. Comment #219877 by Wosret on July 27, 2008 at 4:40 pm

13. Comment #219872 by mordacious1

Maybe we need a toys for radical-muslim-beliefs campaign? Think that could work?

"For not desiring to take over the world anymore, you get a tickle me elmo!"

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17. Comment #219878 by Peacebeuponme on July 27, 2008 at 4:42 pm

Han-nah Stuart

Is Han-nah a muslim name?

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18. Comment #219879 by Peacebeuponme on July 27, 2008 at 4:43 pm

The researchers found that 55% of nonMuslim students thought Islam was incompatible with democracy.

Presumably the other 45% were media studies students.

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19. Comment #219880 by Goldy on July 27, 2008 at 4:44 pm

Mordacious

I suppose it's easy for an iman to say, "look what the americans are doing to the land of your ancestors" and get a knee-jerk reaction.

I guess. Even easier to say what the US-backed Israel is doing to to their Muslim brothers (conveniently forgetting the expulsions of Jews from Muslim lands, the genocide of Christians and on-going harrassment of other religions in Arab Muslim lands and the treatment of Muslim Palestinian refugees by Muslim lands....)

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20. Comment #219882 by Peacebeuponme on July 27, 2008 at 4:46 pm

kkelly

I bet the media spun this with headlines like "Majority of Muslims Do Not Support Murder of Gays."

Is The Times not considered 'Media' then?

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21. Comment #219884 by mordacious1 on July 27, 2008 at 4:47 pm

Mitchell

Honestly I don't think anything is going to work with some of these clowns unless the west stops being (as Fanusi would say) so tolerant of their behaviours.

btw Did you give Steve his hat back? He looks so different without it.

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22. Comment #219885 by tieInterceptor on July 27, 2008 at 4:49 pm

1/3 is more than enough to do some real damage.

Specially when the other 2 thirds is a passive majority that would most likely never lift a finger against another Muslim,

if it comes the time to defend the infidels and democracy from the radical "brothers and sisters" I wont be holding my breath waiting for the 2/3 non violent Muslims to come to the rescue.

worrying to say the least.

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23. Comment #219886 by Wosret on July 27, 2008 at 4:52 pm

21. Comment #219884 by mordacious1

We just have to get on corrupting their young with our evil decadence faster. No youth can resist video games, junk-food and porn for long!

Yeah, I gave it back to him. This site wasn't big enough for two of those hats. Besides, my new avatar is much, MUCH better.

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24. Comment #219887 by james1v on July 27, 2008 at 4:54 pm

Why are these people studying in our unis? They may as well not bother with education full stop..Allah will teach you how to be a doctor, dentist, cosmologist or prat...Its all in the koran!

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25. Comment #219890 by Dhamma on July 27, 2008 at 4:57 pm

I'm not sure what to make of it. These polls are occasionally produced quite disturbingly.

The numbers, if correct, seem alarming. I would just state that I agree with this - "The solution is to stop talking about celebrating diversity and focus on integration and assimilation."

We are just humans. I could reproduce with an arab, an asian or an african. We always focus on separating each other. I believe proper integration will be the key for peace, and I honestly believe it will help atheism.

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26. Comment #219891 by Wosret on July 27, 2008 at 5:05 pm

Human doesn't actually have anything to do with species, it is anything that carries the characteristics of a person. Homo habalis is considered to be the first "human species". If aliens exist, and are individual persons, then they would also be human.

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27. Comment #219893 by kkelly on July 27, 2008 at 5:10 pm

25, but how do you force integration in a free country? I can somewhat accept the legality of eliminating faith-based schools and restructuring school districts for that purpose, but I'd hate to use all those secular kids as the means to our end.

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28. Comment #219895 by Dhamma on July 27, 2008 at 5:23 pm

kkelly: I'm not necessarily implying force is needed. However, I'm not excluding it either.

Faith-based schools should definitely be wiped out, no exception.

In my country and many others, the "new citizens" always live among each other. This has catastrophic results that builds up a wall between us. There are several ways to promote them to live with us, but we show way too much respect for their will, which is very counter-productive. There's so much to say about this, I can't fill up posts about it.

Edit: Well, I could debate it as it's an issue I love debating, but that'd have to be taken tomorrow in that case, cause I can hardly see the keyboard any longer :/ Goodnight!

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29. Comment #219898 by HourglassMemory on July 27, 2008 at 5:33 pm

"Wes Streeting, president of the National Union of Students, condemned the study. "This disgusting report is a reflection of the biases and prejudices of a right-wing think tank �quot; not the views of Muslim students across Britain," he said."

When he mentioned "across Britain" I hadn't thought of the study as being that inclusive.
What I think disgusting is that young people in the universities of the 21st century have such an ignorant mentality, that they actually back primitive behaviours like these. They support ... "killings". Even the word gives a sense of primordial, animalistic behaviour, even ape-like. It's almost like "poaching", only applied to fellow humans.
And I'm not even going to comment on the support a third has on the idea of a "World-wide islamic state"

What should be asked is WHY they back the killings.
Their responses should enlighten the question "Do current university students have any critical thinking, and if so, in what precentages?"

There sure as hell should be debates in these universities, and there should be people who don't give much attention to the "You're offending me" fallacious whine. My God! It's a university after all.
Use it for what it was built for.
If they end up killing people, it's not a point in favour of the ignorant ones.

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30. Comment #219901 by Mr0Joshua on July 27, 2008 at 5:54 pm

18. Peacebeuponme I take offense at your media studies remark. Your comment betrays ignorance of the field. Understanding how the media constructs our social reality is the key to changing the way people treat the idiocy of religious belief. I refer you to the work of Slavoj Zizek and then digress...

I have to agree with Dhamma (25) and admit to a some skepticism about the polling procedures and results. Is their any truth to the assertion that this is "a reflection of the biases and prejudices of a right-wing think tank?" A quick look at the CSC website betrays a certain bias I think. What were the actual questions asked and what is the margin of error for their instrument?

Surveys are not always an accurate reflection of the truth. Remember that the recent Pew Research pole found that "21 percent of Atheists believe in God."

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31. Comment #219903 by Cartomancer on July 27, 2008 at 6:02 pm

Actually, I wonder if that wouldn't be a positive thing to do. Surely by insinuating that most muslims are peaceful, tolerant, law-abiding folk who don't subscribe to the backward patriarchalism of the extremists we can convince more of them that they don't need to become radical to assert their cultural identity?

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32. Comment #219908 by flobear on July 27, 2008 at 6:35 pm

The problem seems to be getting worse and worse.

I recommend the book "Reading Lolita in Tehran: A Memoir in Books" by Azar Nafisi. It's a nonfiction account of a university professor's experience teaching English in Tehran. It is truly frightening how radical Islam took over the educated university student population. Perhaps it's not true that if we just educate people they won't be immune to the effects of religion (or perhaps just Islam).

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33. Comment #219910 by Goldy on July 27, 2008 at 6:44 pm

It is truly frightening how radical Islam took over the educated university student population.

Yes, but is that radical Islam as a political movement against the Shah, US meddling and British imperialism (Iranians seem to blame the Brits for everything...) or an actual religious affair. And now, after almost 30 years of theocracy, are the students so politically Islamic?
What difference between that Islamic rising and the rise of left wing thought in western universities or the hysteria that was the Cultural Revolution in China?

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34. Comment #219912 by Brian English on July 27, 2008 at 6:46 pm

What difference between that Islamic rising and the rise of left wing thought in western universities or the hysteria that was the Cultural Revolution in China?

Oh, I know this one! Islam was the difference! Yes? I get a star now? Oh, what does rhetorical mean?

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35. Comment #219913 by Mango on July 27, 2008 at 6:46 pm

Truly this is the result of the multicularism that has "celebrated diversity" for the past two decades. We should welcome diversity, but only when it it is compatible with a liberal democracy.

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36. Comment #219914 by Radesq on July 27, 2008 at 6:47 pm

I think I agree with Carto. A better (more productive less fear mongering)headline would be "More than two thirds of Muslims cannot justify killing in the name of Islam!"

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37. Comment #219916 by Radesq on July 27, 2008 at 6:50 pm

Mango: By diversity do you mean Russian and Eastern European women in their twenties with a general aptitude for tennis?

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38. Comment #219917 by prolibertas on July 27, 2008 at 6:51 pm

'Surveys are not always an accurate reflection of the truth. Remember that the recent Pew Research pole found that "21 percent of Atheists believe in God."'

Yeah I read something like this on Sam Harris' site. I now don't trust any survey until I've seen the questions myself and made damn sure they couldn't be misinterpreted. But even then, I'd never have thought people could possibly answer 'are you an atheist?' with 'Yes, because I believe in God so much!'

HOW?! Do words mean nothing? It almost tempts me to stoop to post-structuralist wankery. It just fucks me off the amount of stupidity that's out there!

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39. Comment #219921 by Drool on July 27, 2008 at 7:08 pm

I graduated from Queen Mary & Westfield (as it was called) back in 1999 and you know what, I'm shocked but not entirely surprised at it being highlighted as a problem uni...

There were several conflicts over one of the Islamic societies breaking various rules. I can't remember the exact details, but I remember the muslim community were certainly very active and confrontational with the staff and lecturers.

For my own encounters, I had several heated debates with fellow students who were trying to convert me over to Islam! Was quite bizarre, because at the time, even though I was a (reserved) atheist, my opinion of religion was entirely benign - hadn't really thought about it much, or considered its negative sides, or that it had any. Yet, as an atheist, they accused me of following a religion, atheism! Hah. Surely that revelation could only cause me to begin questioning their own, and their tactics?

(Great uni tho. Some of the staff and faculties were top notch - the astronomy unit there especially, I think, is still quite excellent.)

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40. Comment #219922 by Free Man on July 27, 2008 at 7:15 pm

Just Testing as I am a new registered member. I am not sure how comprehensive and accurate the poll is. On the hand, I am pretty sure that there is Islamic extremism around the world.

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41. Comment #219923 by Brian English on July 27, 2008 at 7:17 pm

Hi Free Man, where you from?

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42. Comment #219924 by Free Man on July 27, 2008 at 7:25 pm

Hi BE,

I am from Burma under the rule of the most notorious and inhumane dictators on this planet. What about you? Where are you from?

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43. Comment #219925 by Brian English on July 27, 2008 at 7:28 pm

Australia. My government, for all its faults, can't compete with yours.

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44. Comment #219927 by dragonfirematrix on July 27, 2008 at 7:42 pm

Tolerance of others is really a great achievement and positive way of life, but tolerating the intolerant is pure stupidity that results in the death and destruction of the tolerant.

It is okay to extend tolerance to others. However, no tolerance should be granted to religion for promoting hatred for differences.

If we continue to tolerate the intolerant, the intolerant will ultimately initiate a great war against the rest of us.

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45. Comment #219929 by chuckgoecke on July 27, 2008 at 7:54 pm

Maybe the story here is that almost 2/3 of Muslim students think that killing in the name of Islam is not justified. Also, the hypothetical nature of the question didn't go as far as to ask, would "you" kill for Islam. Add to that prolibertas's good comment about religious poles. I don't think this means much.

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46. Comment #219931 by thewhitepearl on July 27, 2008 at 7:58 pm

Nearly one in 10 had "little respect" for Muslims.

Well now, we need to do something about that. One in ten is simply not enough.

Just Testing as I am a new registered member.

Welcome Free Man!

dragonfire,

Whoa that was a tongue twister.

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47. Comment #219932 by Goldy on July 27, 2008 at 8:03 pm

As I recall from my Leicester Uni days, all our debates centred on the Cyprus problem :-) came from having so many Greek Cypriots...
Free Man, welcome. Burma or Myanmar? ;-)
Brian, I award you the Rhetorical Star of Merit :-D

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48. Comment #219939 by Free Man on July 27, 2008 at 8:15 pm

Thank you for your warm welcom, thewhitpearl and Godly.

Godly, Burma is a colonial name, and Myanmar is a name officially adopted by the current dictatorship in 1997 without the approval of the peoples of Burma.

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49. Comment #219944 by chuckgoecke on July 27, 2008 at 8:24 pm

Dragonfire, My head is spinning. I think I agree... no wait.... I don't know

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50. Comment #219953 by Brian English on July 27, 2008 at 8:35 pm

Goldy, Free Man has noticed your anti-atheist leanings too.

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