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Monday, July 28, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Daniel Dennett: Autobiography (Part 1)

by Daniel Dennett, Philosophy Now

Reposted from:
http://www.philosophynow.org/issue68/68dennett.htm

What makes a philosopher? In the first of a two-part mini-epic, Daniel C. Dennett contemplates a life of the mind — his own. Part 1: The pre-professional years.

It came as a pleasant surprise to me when I learned — around age twelve or thirteen — that not all the delicious and unspeakable thoughts of my childhood had to be kept private. Some of them were called 'philosophy', and there were legitimate, smart people who discussed these fascinating topics in public. While less immediately exciting than some of the other, still unspeakable, topics of my private musings, they were attention-riveting, and they had an aura of secret knowledge. Maybe I was a philosopher. That's what the counselors at Camp Mowglis in New Hampshire suggested, and it seemed that I might be good at it.

My family didn't discourage the idea. My mother and father were both the children of doctors, and both had chosen the humanities. My mother, an English major at Carleton College in Minnesota, went on for a Masters in English from the University of Minnesota, before deciding that she simply had to get out of Minnesota and see the world. Never having been out the Midwest, and bereft of any foreign languages, she took a job teaching English at the American Community School in Beirut. There she met my father, Daniel C. Dennett Jr, working on his PhD in Islamic history at Harvard while teaching at the American University of Beirut. His father, the first Daniel C. Dennett, was a classic small town general practitioner in Winchester, Massachusetts, the suburb of Boston where I spent most of my childhood. So yes, I am Daniel C. Dennett III; but since childhood I've disliked the Roman numerals, and so I chose to court confusion among librarians (how can DCD Jr be the father of DCD?) instead of acquiescing in my qualifier.

My father's academic career got off to a fine start, with an oft-reprinted essay, 'Pirenne and Muhammed', which I was thrilled to find on the syllabus of a history course I took as an undergraduate. His first job was at Clark University. When World War II came along, he put his intimate knowledge of the Middle East to use as a secret agent in the OSS, stationed in Beirut. He was killed on a mission, in an airplane crash in Ethiopia in 1947, when I was five. So my mother and two sisters and I moved from Beirut to Winchester, where I grew up in the shadow of everybody's memories of a quite legendary father. In my youth some of my friends were the sons of eminent or even famous professors at Harvard or MIT, and I saw the toll it took on them as they strove to be worthy of their fathers' attention. I shudder to think of what would have become of me if I had had to live up to my own father's actual, living expectations and not just to those extrapolated in absentia by his friends and family. As it was, I was blessed with the bracing presumption that I would excel, and few serious benchmarks against which to test it. It was assumed by all that I would eventually go to Harvard and become a professor — of one humanities discipline or another. The fact that from about the age of five I was fascinated with building things, taking things apart, repairing things, never even prompted the question of whether I might want to become an engineer — a prospect in our circle about as remote as becoming a lion tamer. I might become an artist — a painter, sculptor or musician — but not an engineer.

In my first year in Winchester High School I had two wonderful semesters of ancient history, taught by lively, inspiring interns from the Harvard School of Education. I poured my heart into a term paper on Plato, with a drawing of Rodin's Thinker on the cover. Deep stuff, I thought; but the fact was that I hardly understood a word of what I read for it. More important, really, was that I knew then — thank you, Catherine Laguardia and Michael Greenebaum wherever you are — that I was going to be a teacher. The only question was, what subject?

I spent my last two years of high school at Phillips Exeter Academy, largely because my father's old friends persuaded my mother that this was obligatory for the son of DCD Jr. Thank you, long-departed friends. There I was immersed in a wonderfully intense intellectual stew, where the editor of the literary magazine had more cachet than the captain of the football team; where boys read books that weren't on the assigned reading; where I learned to write (and write, and write, and write). My Olivetti Lettera portable typewriter (just like Michael Greenebaum's — cool!) churned out hundreds of pages over two years, but none of it was philosophy yet.

As much to upset the family's expectations as for any other reason, I eschewed Harvard for Wesleyan University, and arrived with advanced placement in math and English, having had excellent teachers in both areas at Exeter. I didn't want to go on in calculus, but they twisted my arm to take an advanced math course, under the mistaken idea that I was some sort of mathematical prodigy. I acquiesced, signing up for something called 'Topics in Modern Mathematics', taught by a young lecturer from Princeton, the logician Henry Kyburg in his first job. Since I and a grad student in the math department were the only two students enrolled in the course, Henry asked and got our permission to make it a course in mathematical logic. He promptly immersed us in Quine's Mathematical Logic, followed by Kleene, Ramsey, and even Wittgenstein's Tractatus, among other texts. Quite a first course in logic for a seventeen year-old! If I had been a mathematical prodigy, as advertised, this would no doubt have made pedagogical sense; but I was soon gasping for air and in danger of drowning. Freshman year was turning out to be more challenging than I had expected.

One night as I crammed in the math library, I took a breather and scouted out the shelves. Quine's From a Logical Point of View caught my eye, and I sat down to sample it. By breakfast I had finished my first of several readings of it, and made up my mind to transfer to Harvard. This Quine person was very, very interesting — but wrong. I couldn't yet say exactly how or why, but I was quite sure. So I decided, as only a freshman could, that I had to confront him directly and see what I could learn from him — and teach him! A reading of Descartes' Meditations in my first philosophy course, with Louis Mink, not only confirmed my conviction that I had discovered what it was I was going to teach, but narrowed the field considerably: philosophy of mind and language transfixed my curiosity.

When I showed up at Harvard in the fall of 1960, the first course I signed up for was Quine's philosophy of language course, and the main text was his brand new book, Word and Object. Perfect timing. I devoured the course, and was delighted to find that the other students in the class were really quite as good as I had hoped Harvard students would be. Most were grad students; among them (if memory serves) were David Lewis, Tom Nagel, Saul Kripke, Gil Harman, Margaret Wilson, Michael Slote, David Lyons. A fast class.

When it came to the final exam I had never been so well prepared, with As on both early papers, and every reading chewed over and over. But I froze. I knew too much, had thought too much about the problems and could see, I thought, way beyond the questions posed — too far beyond to enable any answer at all. Quine's teaching assistant, Dagfinn Follesdal, must have taken pity on me, for I received a B- in the course. Follesdal also agreed to be my supervisor when two years later I told him that I'd been working on my senior thesis, 'Quine and Ordinary Language' ever since I'd taken the course. I didn't want Quine to supervise me, since he'd probably show me I was wrong before I got a chance to write it out, and then where would I be? I had sought Quine out, however, for bibliographical help, asking him to direct me to the best anti-Quinians. I needed all the allies I could find. He directed me to Chomsky's Syntactic Structures, the first of Lotfi Zadeh's papers on fuzzy logic, and Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations, which I devoured in the summer of 1962, while on my honeymoon job as a sailing and tennis instructor at Salter's Point, a family summer community in Buzzards Bay (my bride, Susan, was the swimming instructor). 1962-3, my senior year at Harvard, was exciting but far from carefree — I was now a married man at the age of 20, and I had to complete my four-year project to Refute Quine, who was very, very interesting but wrong. Freed from the diversions and distractions of student life, I worked with an intensity I have seldom experienced. I can recall several times reflecting that it really didn't matter in the larger scheme of things whether I was right or wrong: I was engulfed in doing exactly what I wanted to be doing, pursuing a valuable quarry through daunting complexities, and figuring out for myself answers to some of the most perplexing questions I'd ever encountered. Dagfinn, bless his heart, knew enough not to try to do more than gently steer me away from the most dubious overreachings in my grand scheme. I was not strictly out of control, but I was beyond turning back.

The thesis was duly typed up in triplicate and handed in (by a professional typist, back in those days before word-processing). I anxiously awaited the day when Quine and young Charles Parsons, my examiners, would let me know what they made of it. Quine showed up with maybe half a dozen single-spaced pages of comments. I knew at that moment that I was going to be a philosopher. (I was also an aspiring sculptor, and had shown some of my pieces in exhibits and competitions in Boston and Cambridge. Quine had taken a fancy to some of my pieces and always remarked positively on them whenever we met, so I had been getting equivocal signals from my hero — was he really telling me to concentrate on sculpture?) On this occasion Quine responded to my arguments with the seriousness of a colleague, conceding a few crucial points (hurrah!) and offering counter-arguments to others (just as good, really). Parsons sided with me on a point of contention. I can't remember what it was, but I was mightily impressed that he would join David against Goliath. The affirmation was exhilarating. Maybe I really was going to be a philosopher.

But if so, I was going to be a rather different philosopher from those around me. I had no taste for much that delighted my Harvard classmates or the graduate students. Ryle's Concept of Mind was one of the few contemporary books in philosophy that I actually liked. (Another was Stephen Toulmin's The Place of Reason in Ethics, which seems to have vanished without a trace, whereas I thought it was clearly superior to the other readings in my ethics courses.) I couldn't see why others found Ryle so unpersuasive. To me, he was obviously and refreshingly right about something deep, in spite of various overstatements and baffling bits. I decided that Ryle would make a logical next step in my education, so I applied to Oxford, to read for the notoriously difficult B.Phil degree. Burton Dreben tried to dissuade me — now that Austin had died, he assured me, there was nobody, really, in Oxford with whom to study. I also applied to Berkeley, though I can't remember why. And I applied to Harvard, but Harvard wisely had a policy of not admitting their own graduates, and I treasured the letter of rejection I got from the then Dean of Graduate Admissions, Nina Dennett: she signed it 'Aunt Nina', although she was a somewhat more distant relative. I also got rejected by all three Oxford colleges to which I had applied. Back then, they had no university-wide admissions system, and I had applied, as it turned out, to three of the most popular colleges among Rhodes and Marshall scholars: Balliol, Magdalen and University. They were oversubscribed with Americans with scholarships and had no room for me, even though I would be paying for myself with a modest legacy from DCD the first, who had died a few years earlier. But just as I was about to send Berkeley my downpayment to reserve a married student apartment for the fall term, out of the blue I received a letter from the Principal of Hertford College, Oxford, telling me that they were prepared to admit me to read for the B.Phil in philosophy. I had not applied to Hertford, and in fact had never even heard of it, and at first I suspected that somebody who knew of my disappointment was playing an evil prank on me. I looked up Hertford College in the Oxford University Bulletin, confirmed its reality, and accepted. It didn't matter which college I was in, reading for the B.Phil: my supervisor would be one of the professors — Ryle, Ayer or Kneale — and I figured that I would almost certainly be able to work with Ryle, although his name hadn't come up in my correspondence with Hertford. Years later, Ryle told me that he'd been on the admissions committee at Magdalen and read Quine's letter of recommendation. Magdalen couldn't fit me in, so he'd sent the application with a little note to a friend in Hertford, where they were eager to get a few American grad students. So I owed more than I guessed to both my mentors.

My wife and I sailed to England in the summer of 1963. I carried with me an idea I had had about qualia, as philosophers call the phenomenal qualities of experiences, such as the smell of coffee or the 'redness' of red. In my epistemology course at Harvard with Roderick Firth, I had had what struck me as an important insight — obvious to me but strangely repugnant to those I had tried it out on. I claimed that what was caused to happen in you when you looked at something red only seemed to be a quale — a homogeneous, unanalyzable, self-intimating 'intrinsic' property. Subjective experiences of color, for instance, couldn't actually owe the way they seemed to their intrinsic properties; their intrinsic properties could in principle change without any subjective change; what mattered for subjectivity were properties that were — I didn't have a word for it then— functional, relational. The same was going to be true of [mental] content properties in general, I thought. The meaning of an idea, or a thought, just couldn't be a self-contained, isolated patch of psychic paint (what I later jocularly called 'figment'); it had to be a complex dispositional property — a set of behavior-guiding, action-prompting triggers. This idea struck me as congenial with, if not implied by, what Ryle was saying. But when I got to Oxford, I found that these ideas seemed even stranger to my fellow graduate students at Oxford than at Harvard.

This was already beyond the heyday and into the decline of 'ordinary language philosophy', but thanks to the lamentable phenomenon of philosophical hysteresis (graduate students tend to crowd onto bandwagons just as they grind to a halt), Oxford was enjoying total domination of Anglophone philosophy. It was a swarming Mecca for dozens — maybe hundreds — of pilgrims from the colonies who wanted to take the cloth and learn the moves. There was the Voltaire Society and the Ockham Society, just for graduate students. At one of their meetings in my first term, in the midst of a discussion of Anscombe's Intention, as I recall, the issue came up of what to say about one's attempts to raise one's arm when it had gone 'asleep' from lying on it. At the time I knew nothing about the nervous system, but it seemed obvious to me that something must be going on in one's brain that somehow amounted to trying to raise one's arm, and it might be illuminating to learn what science knew about this. My suggestion was met with incredulous stares. What on earth did science have to teach philosophy? This was a philosophical puzzle about 'what we would say', not a scientific puzzle about nerves and the like. This was the first of many encounters in which I found my fellow philosophers of mind weirdly complacent in their ignorance of brains and psychology, and I began to define my project as figuring out as a philosopher how brains could be, or support, or explain, or cause, minds. I asked a friend studying medicine at Oxford what brains were made of, and vividly remember him drawing simplified diagrams of neurons, dendrites, axons — all new terms to me. It immediately occurred to me that a neuron, with multiple inputs and a modifiable branching output, would be just the thing that could compose into networks which could learn by a sort of evolutionary process. Many others have had the same idea, of course, before and since. Once you get your head around it, you see that this really is the way — probably, in the end, the only way — to eliminate the middleman, the all-too-knowing librarian or clerk or homunculus who manipulates the ideas or mental representations, sorting them by content.

With this insight driving me, I began to see how to concoct something of a 'centralist' theory of intentionality. (This largely unexamined alternative was suggested by Charles Taylor in his pioneering book, The Explanation of Behaviour in 1964.) The failure of Skinnerian and Pavlovian 'black box' behaviorism to account for human and animal behavior purely in the 'extensional' terms of histories of stimulus and response suggested that we needed to justify a non-extensional, 'intensional' (with an 's') theory of intentionality (with a 't'): a theory that looked inside at the machinery of mind and explained how internal states and events could be about things, and thereby motivate the mental system of which they were a part to decide on courses of action. [see box on p.24] The result would be what would later be called a functionalist, and then teleofunctionalist, theory of content, in which Brentano and Husserl (thank you, Dagfinn) and Quine could all be put together, but at the subpersonal level. The personal/subpersonal distinction was my own innovation, driven by my attempts to figure out what on earth Ryle was doing and how he could get away with it. It is clear that my brain doesn't understand English — I do — and my hand doesn't sign a contract — I do. But it is also clear that I don't interpret the images on my retinas, and I don't figure out how to make my fingers grasp the pen. We need the subpersonal level of explanation to account for the remarkably intelligent components of me that do the cognitive work that makes it possible for me to do clever things. In order to understand this subpersonal level of explanation, I needed to learn about the brain; so I spent probably five times as much energy educating myself in Oxford's Radcliffe Science Library as I did reading philosophy articles and books.

I went to Ryle, my supervisor, to tell him that I couldn't possibly succeed in the B.Phil, which required one to submit a (modest) thesis and take three very tough examinations in the space of a few weeks at the end of one's second year. As I have already mentioned, I was an erratic examination-taker under the best of conditions, and I was consumed with passion to write my thesis. I knew to a moral certainty that I would fail at least one of the examinations simply because I couldn't make myself prepare for it while working white hot on the thesis. I proposed to switch to the B.Litt; a thesis-only degree that would let me concentrate on the thesis and then go off to Berkeley for a proper PhD. To my delight and surprise, Ryle said that I might have to settle for a B.Litt as a consolation prize of sorts, but that he was prepared to recommend me for the D.Phil, which also required just a thesis. With that green light, I was off and running, but the days of inspiration were balanced by weeks and months of confusion, desperation and uncertainty. A tantalizing source of alternating inspiration and frustration was Hilary Putnam, whose 'Minds and Machines' (1960) I had found positively earthshaking. I set to work feverishly to build on it in my own work, only to receive an advance copy of Putnam's second paper on the topic, 'Robots: Machines or Artificially Created Life?' from my mole back at Harvard (it was not published until 1967). This scooped my own efforts and then some. No sooner had I recovered and started building my own edifice on Putnam paper number two than I was spirited a copy of Putnam paper number three, 'The Mental Life of Some Machines' (eventually published in 1967) and found myself left behind yet again. So it went. I think I understood Putnam's papers almost as well as he did — which was not quite well enough to see farther than he could what step to take next. Besides, I was trying to put a rather different slant on the whole topic, and it was not at all clear to me that, or how, I could make it work. Whenever I got totally stumped, I would go for a long, depressed walk in the glorious Parks along the River Cherwell. Marvelous to say, after a few hours of tramping back and forth with my umbrella, muttering to myself and wondering if I should go back to sculpture, a breakthrough would strike me and I'd dash happily back to our flat and my trusty Olivetti for another whack at it. This was such a reliable source of breakthroughs that it became a dangerous crutch; when the going got tough, I'd just pick up my umbrella and head out to the Parks, counting on salvation before suppertime.

Gilbert Ryle himself was the other pillar of support I needed. In many regards he ruled Oxford philosophy at the time, as editor of Mind and informal clearing-house for jobs throughout the Anglophone world, but at the same time he stood somewhat outside the cliques and coteries, the hotbeds of philosophical fashion. He disliked and disapproved of the reigning Oxford fashion of clever, supercilious philosophical one-upmanship, and disrupted it when he could. He never 'fought back'. In fact, I tried to provoke him, with elaborately-prepared and heavily-armed criticisms of his own ideas, but he would genially agree with all my good points as if I were talking about somebody else, and get us thinking what repairs and improvements we could together make of what remained. It was disorienting, and my opinion of him then — often expressed to my fellow graduate students, I am sad to say — was that while he was wonderful at cheering me up and encouraging me to stay the course, I hadn't learned any philosophy from him.

I finished a presentable draft of my dissertation in the minimum time (six terms or two years) and submitted it with scant expectation that it would be accepted on first go. On the eve of submitting it, I came across an early draft of it, and compared the final product with its ancestor. To my astonishment, I could see Ryle's influence on every page. How had he done it? Osmosis? Hypnotism? This gave me an early appreciation of the power of indirect methods in philosophy. You seldom talk anybody out of a position by arguing directly with their premises and inferences. Sometimes it is more effective to nudge them sideways with images, examples, helpful formulations that stick to their habits of thought. My examiners were A.J. Ayer and the great neuroanatomist J.Z. Young from London — an unprecedented alien presence at a philosophy viva, occasioned by my insistence on packing my thesis with speculations on brain science. He too had been struck by the idea of learning as evolution in the brain, and was writing a book on it, so we were kindred spirits on that topic, if not on the philosophy, which he found intriguing but impenetrable. Ayer was reserved. I feared he had not read much of the thesis, but I later found out he was simply made uncomfortable by his friend Young's too-enthusiastic forays into philosophy, and he found silence more useful than intervention. I waited in agony for more than a week before I learned via a cheery postcard from Ryle that the examiners had voted me the degree.

Since I had the degree, I wouldn't need to go to U.C. [University of California] Berkeley after all. So on a wonderful day in May 1965, a few weeks after my 23rd birthday, I sent off two letters to California: I accepted an Assistant Professorship at U.C. Irvine, where A.I. Melden was setting up a philosophy department in a brand new campus of the university; and I declined a Teaching Assistantship at U.C. Berkeley, saying only that I had found another position. I didn't dare say that it was a tenure track position at a sister campus! I was a little worried that there might be some regulations of the University of California prohibiting this sort of thing, whatever sort of thing it was. Ah, those were the glorious expansionist days in American academia, when it was a seller's market in jobs, and I had garnered two solid offers and a few feelers without so much as an interview, let alone a campus visit and job talk. For formality's sake, Melden asked me to send a curriculum vitae along with my official acceptance letter, and I had to ask around Oxford to find out what such an obscure document might be.

© Prof. Daniel C. Dennett 2008

Dan Dennett is Co-Director of the Center for Cognitive Studies and is Austin B. Fletcher Professor of Philosophy at Tufts University. His latest book is Breaking the Spell (Viking, 2006).

• This two-part article was written in 2003 but has not previously been published. You will be able to read the second part in the next issue of Philosophy Now.

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1. Comment #220380 by JAMCAM87 on July 28, 2008 at 11:40 am

 avatarJust bought Darwin's Dangerous Idea. It's brilliant.

Too many philosophers ignore science. Philosophy is lame without it and Dennett is one of the few who knows this.

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2. Comment #220382 by Upgrade01A on July 28, 2008 at 11:41 am

 avatarNice Autobiography Daniel! Interesting stuff.

I have enjoyed a few of Daniel Dennett's books and liked his talks on TED, YouTube, and the Four Horsemen here at this sight. I do not always agree with him, but he always makes me think.

A couple of his books that I really enjoyed are:

"Breaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon" - it is a little long and dry at times, but well worth the read.

"Freedom Evolves" - I read this one pretty much straight through over just a few visits to my local coffee shop - very interesting approach to the concept of freedom and what is important about it. However, I am still convinced that philosophical free will is an illusion, and I think Dennett's view is really talking about something different than free will... read it and see for yourself. I wonder how much he sees I to I with Douglas Hofstadter's GEB, and "I am a Strange Loop" books. I wish Douglas would put his two cent's worth in on Atheism as well.

http://upgrade01a.wordpress.com/2008/06/20/the-free-will-machine/

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3. Comment #220420 by Lucas on July 28, 2008 at 12:20 pm

 avatarGood stuff. Too bad Tufts doesn't have a graduate program. My old roommate had Dennett as an undergrad advisor; sad to say it was probably wasted on him that he had such a genius advising him. What he's doing at the Center, though, is worth it I suppose. I should really get around to his books.

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4. Comment #220437 by skyhook87 on July 28, 2008 at 12:38 pm

 avatar@ Upgrade01A,

You might enjoy a book penned by Douglas Hofstadter and Daniel Dennett: The Mind's I: Fantasies and Reflections on Self and Soul.

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5. Comment #220452 by 82abhilash on July 28, 2008 at 1:04 pm


Comment #220382 by Upgrade01A

"Freedom Evolves" - I read this one pretty much straight through over just a few visits to my local coffee shop - very interesting approach to the concept of freedom and what is important about it. However, I am still convinced that philosophical free will is an illusion, and I think Dennett's view is really talking about something different than free will... read it and see for yourself.


You are right, Dennett's view of free will is remarkably different from what people generally understand as free will.

Our intuition of free will has a Biblical origin. Eve wants to bite the apple. Eve is tempted to bite the apple. She is perfectly free to do otherwise, so perfectly in fact that even god cannot foresee what she will do. She may or she may not, no one can know till it happens.

What Dennett calls free will is our innate tendency to willfully perform actions that avoids harm and enhances our well-being. In other words free will is our capacity to act responsibly.

So if Dennett wrote the story of Eve it might go something like this. A talking snake told Eve that eating the apple is good. If you think snakes can talk, you are probably not feeling well. Perhaps you need a rest before you go eating fruits you know little about. Better yet, feed it to the snake that seemed to just talk to you. You can eat the apple, if it is still ok. What if the snake dies? Well, it helps her with the hallucinations about talking snakes. Then maybe Eve won't eat the apple, in fact she better not. Unless she thinks dying is in her best interest. In which case she is probably stupid. Does she have a choice? Of course. The best of kind of choice. The type that allows her to make responsible decisions. So the essence of free-will is not choice, but the capacity to make sound decisions.


Of course Dennett's kind of free will implies there is a co-relation between free will and competence. The more competent (and less stupid) people have more free will. Judging from the state of the world today, I can't help but feel he is right.

I assembled this video about Dennett's lecture on free will for anyone who is interested:

http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=20E474C2200FBD05

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6. Comment #220459 by PristinePanda on July 28, 2008 at 1:11 pm

 avatarI wish Dennett was about two decades younger so he would stick around with us for a bit longer. XD We need more atheistic philosophers like him!

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7. Comment #220517 by Teratornis on July 28, 2008 at 2:21 pm

 avatarDarwin's Dangerous Idea is one of my favorite books. Of course like any paper book, it would be better on a well-realized wiki. But at the time I read it, I had not yet been spoiled by the modern incarnation of Wikipedia, which makes paper seem increasingly primitive and unsatisfying.

It will be nice when all the serious scientists are editing on wikis, or on whatever comes after wikis.

I was thinking the other day about the different communication styles of the following six men:

Daniel Dennett
Steven Pinker
Sam Harris

Richard Dawkins
Christopher Hitchens
PZ Myers

While I respect and admire all six, and they all seem to respect and admire each other, it seems to me the first three are somewhat better than the last three at disagreeing with unreasonable people. By "better," I mean the first three appear to have somewhat more ability to present disturbing truths while enabling the disturbed hearers to focus on the disturbing truths somewhat longer before personalizing the disagreement.

Very few people seem to know much about how to disagree. This is why humans fight real wars in the real world, and flame wars in the online world.

Scientists and intellectuals (such as the above six) are quite good at disagreeing with each other, because they maintain a kind of gentlemen's aggreement about rules of evidence and how to run a debate.

But when it comes to arguing with people who explicitly reject reason, the person who depends on the opponent to be reasonable is at something of a disadvantage.

I get the idea that Dennett, Pinker, and Harris are better at communicating with unreasonable people than Dawkins, Hitchens, and Myers are.

For example, one simply cannot picture any of the first three soliciting our letters of support to persuade their employers to overlook their profanity-laced denouncements of Catholic communion rituals. One gets the idea that Dennett, Pinker, and Harris could explain (and have explained) just as well their just as deep objections to superstitious nonsense while being somewhat less likely to incite a lynch mob.

I'm not sure that any of the six are any better at actually bringing the committed devotees of unreason much closer to reason, in anything like the short term - for that, something like divine power is probably necessary - but I like the ability of the first three to popularize the most disturbing truths with perhaps something like the minimum amount of pissing people off.

A classic example was watching Sam Harris remain calm and centered while being "interviewed" (i.e., shouted at and constantly interrupted by) the conservative theocratic FOX blowhard Bill O'Reilly, whose argument style is to compensate for manifold logical deficiencies by getting louder. One imagines that Sam could beat the standing record for waterboarding endurance.

I don't know how much of this is due to innate personal style vs. professional training. Might it be that philosophers and cognitive scientists are better schooled in the art of disagreement than scientists and journalists are?

The former group has to grapple with enormous questions that are, at the moment, largely unanswerable. People who use the mind to study the mind might tend to be somewhat more aware of the nature and unreliability of beliefs and emotions, and thus be less likely to be tricked into becoming, shall we say, a bit testy when crossed, while at the same time choosing their words with a fuller understanding of what sort of emotions they might evoke in the hearer.

In contrast, scientists and intellectuals who use the mind to tackle subjects outside of it might be less aware of how minds work - both their own, and the minds of the people they argue with - and thus be somewhat more prone to fall into unproductive traps of unnecessarily personalized disagreement.

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8. Comment #220532 by Mark Smith on July 28, 2008 at 2:38 pm

Great stuff.

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9. Comment #220564 by Happy Hominid on July 28, 2008 at 3:21 pm

 avatarDarwin's Dangerous Idea is one of my top 4 or 5 evolution/science books. There is a nice and fairly recent interview with Dan here http://thesciencenetwork.org/the-science-studio/
And The Herd have brought him up a number of times in the weekly atheist discussions. http://anothergoddamnedpodcast.blogspot.com/

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10. Comment #220565 by Spinoza on July 28, 2008 at 3:22 pm

 avatarDennett was one of my earliest influences in my foray into philosophy. When I took my first phil. of Mind course, he and the Churchlands were on the syllabus, and I found myself agreeing with much of what they said (and disagreeing vehemently with people like John Searle and Frank Jackson).

I think he's wrong about "freedom" (of the will), in the same way he thought Quine was wrong (in an interesting way!), but I have not had the fortune of being a legacy and going to Oxford/Harvard...

Oh well, we'll just have to see... heh... (by the way, for those above who have sort of started discussing Dennett's views about free will, I think his mistake is in assuming a compatibilist standpoint because of a rejection of deterministic inevitability. I think that's not only incoherent, but decidedly muddled in a rather ordinary way. I, like Spinoza, my namesake, am a "hard determinist" or "necessitarian", and I just think that if Dennett were consistent, he would be too.)

To those who said that philosophy without science is lame, you're about 3/4 right.

Philosophy CREATES sciences... Sometimes after this happens, though, it just needs to be pushed into its other status as a critical and learned observer of the sciences.

There are huge swathes of philosophy that don't particularly need any direct knowledge of sciences... Historical philosophy, for one. You don't need to know any modern biology to be a Descartes scholar.

And when it comes to ethical philosophy, I think there is a need for Philosophy to "scientify" itself, to the chagrin of most people in that branch... but one thing they mustn't do is cave to branches of fields like moral psychology, or political science, since these are at least as speculative and (imho) WRONG as philosophers have been about ethics for quite some time.

But yes, Dan is pretty much THE reason why I too hold the view that philosophers ought to be knowledgeable about at least relevant sciences (which those are for which philosophers is an open question).

It is still an unpopular view to hold.

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11. Comment #220589 by Thurston on July 28, 2008 at 4:07 pm

 avatarI love Daniel Dennett; he takes risks. In Darwin's Dangerous Idea the risks paid off and he produced a fantastic book, but in Freedom Evolves, they didn't, but the book was still fantastic; a book to disagree with. As JAMCAM87 said: science (representing the best of modern knowledge) is vital and Dennett does this better than anyone in philosophy.

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12. Comment #220596 by Spinoza on July 28, 2008 at 4:18 pm

 avatar
science (representing the best of modern knowledge) is vital and Dennett does this better than anyone in philosophy.


I wouldn't say that. Dennett is just one of the more accessible philosophers who has bridged the gaps between philosophy and science.

Paul and Patricia Churchland are two other more accessible ones.

The ENTIRE FIELD of Philosophy of Science, pretty much, including people like Ruben, Dretske, Mellor, Cartwright, Ruse, and the dead legends Kuhn, Popper, and Hempel... are and were massively knowledgeable about science.

To write off philosophy as wholly unscientific is to commit a massive and greivous error.

The history of philosophy is mostly a history of the development of the sciences, and modern philosophy, though much narrower in many ways, is not dead yet. There are still more sciences to be discovered, and still more philosophy to be done to keep the existing sciences moving ever forward.

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13. Comment #220621 by ConsciousMachine on July 28, 2008 at 5:35 pm

 avatar
Upgrade01A@2:
However, I am still convinced that philosophical free will is an illusion, and I think Dennett's view is really talking about something different than free will...

I think that in one sense you are correct. What Dennett is talking about is different from the classical definition of 'free will'. He says as much many times in Freedom Evolves. What he is trying to do is to nudge the definition of free will ever so slightly off its rails so that instead of being synonymous with a malleable future, the concept of free will instead implies only that we have the potential for real and valuable choices, even if those choices happen in some sense (which doesn't really matter to us) to be "pre-determined".

What's great about this autobiography is that he pretty much explicitly admits to employing this strategy:
You seldom talk anybody out of a position by arguing directly with their premises and inferences. Sometimes it is more effective to nudge them sideways with images, examples, helpful formulations that stick to their habits of thought.

So yes, Dennett is talking about something different than "philosophical free will" as it has been traditionally used. But rather than undermine what so many find to be a cherished ideal and also perhaps to avoid the fatalism that seems so often to go hand in hand with determinism, Dennett attempts to bridge the gap between "free will" and "determinism" by re-defining what we mean by free will. He says we can have our cake and eat it too. Free will is real he says, it's just not what you think it is.

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14. Comment #220630 by Ian Bamlett on July 28, 2008 at 6:15 pm

 avatarTeratornis, (Comment #220517)

I really enjoyed your post. Whilst I agree with all of it on balance I wouldn't ignore the influence of the fact that Dawkins and Myers are biologists/evolutionists and thus more directly under attack by the religious than say Dennet or Harris.

Hitchens of course just loves a scrap and revels in it; so he's not even trying.

:-)

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15. Comment #220652 by Layla Nasreddin on July 28, 2008 at 7:47 pm

 avatarReading this, I couldn't but help notice how incredibly lucky Dan was to come into contact with so many intelligent, thoughtful teachers and mentors during his education, and how his pursuits were encouraged by his family -- and then think, "What about those bright kids who aren't lucky enough to find mentors or to be born in intellectual households?" Not to mention wincing at the savage decline in US education during the ensuing decades! One weeps at the wasted talent and potential.

Interesting that Dan's father was a scholar of Islamic history. Very interesting...I wonder if that, or his early life in Beirut, affected any of his later work.

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16. Comment #220658 by jwdink on July 28, 2008 at 8:07 pm

Spinoza, I must confess that I'm still perplexed by your distaste for moral psychology.

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17. Comment #220659 by jwdink on July 28, 2008 at 8:10 pm

However, I am still convinced that philosophical free will is an illusion, and I think Dennett's view is really talking about something different than free will...


I think that is indeed the idea. If I remember correctly from the book, he makes a good case for why the classical definition is nonsense, but that his re-definition has everything "worth-wanting." And that's the point.

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18. Comment #220671 by 82abhilash on July 28, 2008 at 8:40 pm


10. Comment #220565 by Spinoza on July 28, 2008 at 3:22 pm


Dennett makes a distinction between fatalism (where the decision you make does not matter) and determinism (where the decision you make does matter). Why is it difficult for you (and most people) to see?

Is it because free will implies choice and determinism implies a lack of free will and therefore a lack of choice? Probably.

But what if all freedom is, is our capacity to make decisions without duress and nothing more? - there may be choice, there may not be choice but there will still be free will. The universe may be deterministic, the universe may be indeterministic, there will still be free will.

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19. Comment #220680 by karadoc on July 28, 2008 at 9:26 pm

 avatarI like Dennett's take on free will. Here's how I see it: I sure feel like I have free will, and I'm sure most people feel the same; but I believe that the universe, including my mind and body, are governed by physical laws which we can work out and write down. The decisions that I make in my life are made by my mind, but my mind is doing nothing more than obeying the laws of physics.

What Dennett seems to be doing is defining and describing free will in such a way as to say that we do have it, but that there is nothing unphysical about it.

I find Dennett's description of free will to be the only sensible description I've ever heard! Other versions of free will typically rely on non-physical entities, such as spirits, and so we are usually forced to just say that free will does not exist. Dennett's description at least justifies that feeling we all have which tells us we do indeed make our own decisions. That's certainly better than some other description of free will that can be immediately ruled out as unphysical.

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20. Comment #220701 by apettway on July 29, 2008 at 12:06 am

 avatarDennett is one of my heros. His book, Darwin's Dangerous Idea, changed my worldview (as did Dawkins' Selfish Gene). It's funny, I knew these two before the whole so-called "new atheism" thing. When I learned that they both had written books on religion I almost peed my pants.

I'm reading Freedom Evolves now and I have to say that Dennett's version of free will is more satisfying than any other.

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21. Comment #220771 by j.mills on July 29, 2008 at 3:22 am

 avatarAn engaging bio from Dennett and an unusually interesting thread to follow. You've all done very well! :)

I wasn't so impressed by Freedom Evolves as by his other books (Consciousness Explained was a doozey!). The bit where Dennett really addressed the determinists' objection to free will was the most interesting for me, but he was almost dismissive of the argument. He pointed out that to make choices we must be able to judge consequences, and if this did not require determinism, it certainly wasn't hindered by it: an indeterministic universe would by definition be unpredictable. I would have liked to have seen that startling idea developed more.

But every Dennett book is a splendid treat.

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22. Comment #220812 by VanYoungman on July 29, 2008 at 5:04 am

 avatarOne of the most beautiful "truths" about Dan Dennett is his accessability. "Consciousness Explained" changed my life forever and set me on a course that inevitably led me to this forum and all its ramifications.

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23. Comment #221097 by Teratornis on July 29, 2008 at 10:36 am

 avatarComment #220630 by Ian Bamlett:

I really enjoyed your post.


Thank you for the kind words.

Think how much better the post could have been if I had worked in a mention of peak oil.


Whilst I agree with all of it on balance I wouldn't ignore the influence of the fact that Dawkins and Myers are biologists/evolutionists and thus more directly under attack by the religious than say Dennet or Harris.


Perhaps that's more true of Pinker than of Dennett, and more true of Dennett than Harris. Sam comes in for his share of attacks from the religious. His Letter to a Christian Nation is in response to these attacks.

I get the idea that Dennett admires religion in something like the way opposing generals in an otherwise bitter conflict might feel impressed by an especially clever move by the opponent, even while deploring the grim consequences for their side.

Sam Harris too seems to have a solid understanding of what he's arguing against. He doesn't spend any time feigning incredulity as Richard Dawkins sometimes does ("You can't really believe in the virgin birth and resurrection of Jesus, can you?"). It's almost as if Richard cannot believe religion can do what it routinely does - persuade otherwise intelligent people to believe ridiculous things.

Richard writes about appreciating the wonders of nature. Well, religion is as much an aspect of nature as the stars, galaxies, waterfalls, and spider webs. Speaking of spider webs, how "wonderful" might one appear to a sentient struggling fly trapped upon it? Humans can appreciate the wonders of nature just so long as we are immune to their horrors. The AIDS virus, in its own way, is as beautifully equipped by natural selection to do its job as any of the creatures we regard as more charismatic.

In any case, the viciousness of attacks one receives in no way obligates one to respond in kind, especially if we consider that the attacks may be part of a conscious or unconscious strategy to provoke an overreaction, thereby discrediting one's claim to rationality.

People who promote rationality as being superior to other modes of thought should demonstrate by their actions that this is always true.

Selective rationality or conditional rationality are not, in my opinion, rationality at all - because even religious people practice selective rationality.

Theists can call atheism a religion, with some justification, if they can provoke atheists to respond emotionally like religious people do.


Hitchens of course just loves a scrap and revels in it; so he's not even trying.


Hitchens has found a niche from which he can profitably trade on confrontation. Perhaps PZ Myers should similarly find a career in which there is no such thing as bad publicity.

On the other side of the aisle, there's Ann Coulter, a conservative/irrational/creationist pundit who makes a sport of going over the top, and who finds her book sales expanding in proportion to her rhetorical excess.

One simply cannot picture Hitchens or Coulter pleading for a letter-writing campaign to their employers on their behalf. The lesson there is that despite our theoretical rights to free expression, expression is not free of consequences, and the more freely one wishes to express oneself, the more carefully one must arrange one's circumstances to facilitate it.

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24. Comment #221180 by ConsciousMachine on July 29, 2008 at 12:08 pm

 avatar
I get the idea that Dennett admires religion in something like the way opposing generals in an otherwise bitter conflict might feel impressed by an especially clever move by the opponent, even while deploring the grim consequences for their side.


I think you misread Dennett here. I agree that he certainly admires religion, but not in the way that you describe. I think that he sees religion as something that is genuinely beautiful but that has some unfortunate consequences (as you described in your analogy of the spiders web). I distinctly do not get the impression that Dennett views himself as a general or religion as something to be eradicated. I have heard many people say how clever they think Dennett is being with his proposal for universal Religious Education because they are sure that this would be (and that he intends it to be) a death warrant for religion if ever implemented. I think that this is a terrible mischaracterization of both Dennetts motives and the likely result of such a policy. I don't think that Dennett views religion as a dangerous dog that need to be put down but rather as a variety of wild animals some of which might be usefully domesticated. He says as much and to suggest that he sees religion as the enemy is to suggest that he is being disingenuous in expressing such views.

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25. Comment #221394 by IanD on July 29, 2008 at 3:20 pm

 avatarDennett has more space to write about his view on free will in his book "Elbow Room: the varieties of Free Will worth wanting"

Much as I enjoy Freedom Evolves, it doesn't go into the reasons why Dennett picked the version of free will to defend that he has.

And yes, I first heard of Dennett when "Consciousness Explained" became available from my book club, and promptly persuaded me to track down as many of his books as possible...

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26. Comment #221567 by Scep on July 29, 2008 at 7:48 pm

It would be interesting to get some comments about the following Stephen Hawking thought:

"However, in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, science became too technical and mathematical for the philosophers or anyone else except for a few specialists. Philosophers reduced the scope of their inquiries so much that Wittgenstein the most famous philosopher this century, said 'The sole remaining task for philosophy is the analysis of language.' What a comedown from the great tradition of philosophy from Aristotle to Kant! (Hawking, 1988)"

Dan Dennett seems to be one of only a few philosophers equally interested science and philosophy.

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27. Comment #221663 by huxley_leopard on July 30, 2008 at 1:26 am

Scep, I think you're right.

Let me go a little further: philosophy just vanishes up its own arse.

Philosophy has not advanced beyond arguing about fundamentals - platonists still argue with aristotleians. Science gets somewhere. Engineers build useful things with that knowledge.

The only advances in philosophy are really when:
- they 'discover' that the scope of philosophy should be reduced (e.g. Wittgenstein - he should have stuck to teaching or architecture he might have been a little happier instead of being miserable and torturing students),
- they just sit back and think about the ramifications of new scientific discoveries, e.g. in how the brain works (this is reactive and doesn't discover anything new and often scientists, or philosophers with scientific backgrounds, do this best),
- they write about what people have done or thought about in the past (this is really History, e.g. Kuhn was really a historian)

The only worthwhile discovery philosophers have made that I can think of was possibly the scientific method, and it is arguable whether they weren't just 'discovering' something scientists were doing already.

I think philosophy isn't a subject and all these clever people should go do something worthwhile, even sociology would be a step up!!!!

Imagine what Dennett might have done if he had become an engineer.

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28. Comment #221670 by Yadsmood on July 30, 2008 at 1:41 am

 avatar
I think philosophy isn't a subject and all these clever people should go do something worthwhile, even sociology would be a step up!!!!

Imagine what Dennett might have done if he had become an engineer.
Daniel Dennett has done perhaps more than anyone else to help new generations of scientists think about the problem of consciousness. There are not many engineers who can boast of having rendered humanity such a valuable service.

As Marvin Minsky has said, Dennett is redefining the role of a philosopher. Philosophy works best when it restricts itself to clarifying scientists' thinking.

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29. Comment #221718 by DanDare on July 30, 2008 at 3:13 am

 avatarTeratornis:
Richard writes about appreciating the wonders of nature. Well, religion is as much an aspect of nature as the stars, galaxies, waterfalls, and spider webs. Speaking of spider webs, how "wonderful" might one appear to a sentient struggling fly trapped upon it? Humans can appreciate the wonders of nature just so long as we are immune to their horrors. The AIDS virus, in its own way, is as beautifully equipped by natural selection to do its job as any of the creatures we regard as more charismatic.

Monty Python:

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures, short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.


Other Comments by DanDare

30. Comment #221753 by huxley_leopard on July 30, 2008 at 4:25 am

Yadsmood - I don't think we disagree about the contribution of DD. I was being deliberately belligerent in the hope of a response.

But saying, "There are not many engineers who can boast of having rendered humanity such a valuable service." however, is a bit over the top, don't you think? Replace humanity with neuroscience and you might have a point. What have engineers done for us apart from basically everything that has improved our lives in any tangible fashion throughout the whole of history? If philosophers stopped philosophising tomorrow, would the world grind to a halt, would scientists lose the ability to think about their own findings, would we all lose our ethical compass? Probably not, but for sure the world wouldn't last very long without engineers to keep everything going.

My argument was not that philosophers are useless (although a lot of them probably are), rather that when they are useful, you could probably describe what they are doing in a more appropriate way than 'philosophy'. If they are thinking and coming up with ideas/hypotheses based on evidence, it sounds more like they are being scientists.

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31. Comment #221766 by j.mills on July 30, 2008 at 5:09 am

 avatarPerhaps we could think of philosophy as 'speculative science' - exploring the possible answers to questions we have as yet no direct means of investigating. As such, philosophers may take a wider view than specialists in any other field and act as 'integrators' of knowledge.

If that sounds suspiciously close to theology, I suggest that philosophy is parsimonious, conscious of its own limitations and giving way to science when science catches up. There's the old rubric:

Philosophy is questions that can't be answered.
Religion is answers that can't be questioned.

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32. Comment #221784 by huxley_leopard on July 30, 2008 at 5:54 am

j.mills - interesting point, thankyou.

If philosophy is "questions that can't be answered", they should at least be questions that may be answered one day in the future, i.e. phrased in such a way as to make them testable should the necessary experimental apparatus be developed.

Developing ways in which to test the hypotheses that are the result of philosophical musings is possibly a much greater challenge!

The attitude of some philosophers, happily become rarer under the influence of those like Dennett, that science is somehow irrelevant to philosophy seems very stupid to me.

Has anyone seen the film made in CERN with John Berger discussing quantum physics with scientists? It's really good.

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33. Comment #221789 by Yadsmood on July 30, 2008 at 6:06 am

 avatar
But saying, "There are not many engineers who can boast of having rendered humanity such a valuable service." however, is a bit over the top, don't you think? Replace humanity with neuroscience and you might have a point. What have engineers done for us apart from basically everything that has improved our lives in any tangible fashion throughout the whole of history?
I was talking about individual engineers. Engineering is obviously extremely important, but there aren't many individual engineers to make "revolutionary" contributions. There are some, like Claude Shannon, but those are very special cases.

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34. Comment #221820 by huxley_leopard on July 30, 2008 at 7:14 am

Yadsmood, I realise that. But a philosopher has to be revolutionary in order to make any contribution at all, whereas any engineer just has to be competent to make a significant and noteworthy contribution to society.

Other Comments by huxley_leopard

35. Comment #221864 by Scep on July 30, 2008 at 8:27 am

That old smoothie, Carl Sagan, once remarked:

"Science is not perfect. It is often misused. It is only a tool, but it is the best tool we have".

Reminds one of language, it too is often misused. It too is only a tool, but if we want to communicate, it is the best tool we have.

Here is one for the revolutionary philosopher:
Maybe in the far distant future we humans will find a way to eliminate misunderstandings. Maybe we will find a method to transmit a thought via brainwaves rather than that mechanical stuttering we presently do with our tongue. We wouldn't have to translate from one language to another; it would be the thought that counts!

In the meantime, science has to be the way and the method, self-correcting, ever changing and applicable to everything.

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36. Comment #221871 by Teratornis on July 30, 2008 at 8:41 am

 avatarComment #221663 by huxley_leopard:

The only worthwhile discovery philosophers have made that I can think of was possibly the scientific method, and it is arguable whether they weren't just 'discovering' something scientists were doing already.


How about:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

I find it hugely worthwhile to have that list of fallacies handy to help me avoid being bamboozled by other people's rhetorical tricks.

We have philosophers to thank pretty much for reason itself. A few people are able to discuss their differences logically, as opposed to killing each other, because of the methods of discourse worked out by the ancient Greek philosophers, and refined considerably since then.

If we consider logicians to be philosophers, which is fair enough as Wikipedia classifies logic under philosophy, then if you think computers are worthwhile, let's not discount the contributions of George Boole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Boole

And speaking of worthwhile, how about all those great Nietzsche quotes?

Other Comments by Teratornis

37. Comment #221878 by David Blackwell on July 30, 2008 at 8:56 am

If I was to try to come up with one word to describe philosophy's main legitimate function today, my guess is that "clarificatory" would come pretty close (i.e. helping prevent confusion in our use of language). And to the extent this is correct, how useful is such a function? What are or can be the negative consequences of the various ways people deceive themselves and others when, for instance, they employ the word "God"? (Nothing original claimed here.)

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38. Comment #221884 by Teratornis on July 30, 2008 at 9:08 am

 avatarComment #221180 by ConsciousMachine:

I distinctly do not get the impression that Dennett views himself as a general or religion as something to be eradicated.


The military analogy allows for some wiggle room. Combatants switch sides occasionally. For example, in Iraq, the U.S. has managed to persuade some former anti-U.S. insurgents to side with the Iraqi government instead, and fight Al Qaeda.


I don't think that Dennett views religion as a dangerous dog that need to be put down but rather as a variety of wild animals some of which might be usefully domesticated.


It's always fun to argue about what other people think.

Religious people like to argue about what God thinks. In our case, it is at least hypothetically possible (though unlikely) for Dennett to weigh in personally.

Dennett elaborated on the domestic animal analogy in his excellent TED talk. However, every analogy fails somewhere, and this one doesn't quite cover motive. Farmers who domesticate cattle really want to have the benefits of cattle, and there isn't a huge debate about whether the cattle really exist.

A domesticated religion would still contain many beliefs that Dennett would consciously reject, unless perhaps it watered itself down all the way to secular humanism. Thus I don't think Dennett would view a world filled with constructive falsehoods as anything more than a stopgap solution.

There might be some useful analogies between religion and the evolution of virulence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optimal_virulence

Under what circumstances does religion tend to evolve to destructive forms? Are such circumstances recognizable?


He says as much and to suggest that he sees religion as the enemy is to suggest that he is being disingenuous in expressing such views.


Military people who claim expertise in fighting an insurgency reject the conventional warfare notion of obliterating the enemy's ability to wage war. The danger in asymmetric warfare is when the stronger side overreacts to terrorist provocations and alienates a population with heavy-handed reprisals. The goal of insurgents is to provoke such reactions, to turn the people against the government currently in power.

While the analogy perhaps groans under some strain, as all analogies do when examined carefully, I think it's fair to say that Dennett doesn't treat religion with quite as much overtly obvious disdain as some atheists do.

Other Comments by Teratornis

39. Comment #221887 by hungarianelephant on July 30, 2008 at 9:12 am

 avatar40. Comment #221884 by Teratornis on July 30, 2008 at 9:08 am
Farmers who domesticate cattle really want to have the benefits of cattle, and there isn't a huge debate about whether the cattle really exist.

You are obviously not familiar with the EU's Common Agricultural Policy.

Sorry, too hard to resist.

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40. Comment #222003 by Yadsmood on July 30, 2008 at 12:32 pm

 avatar
Yadsmood, I realise that. But a philosopher has to be revolutionary in order to make any contribution at all, whereas any engineer just has to be competent to make a significant and noteworthy contribution to society.
If that's true, it doesn't matter. Dennett has done more than anyone else to clear up the paralysing mind-body problem, which held humanity back for centuries. This in my opinion more will prove more valuable than the building of a house or bridge -- projects which thousands of engineers are ready undertake at any moment.

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41. Comment #222043 by ConsciousMachine on July 30, 2008 at 1:22 pm

 avatar
"Farmers who domesticate cattle really want to have the benefits of cattle, and there isn't a huge debate about whether the cattle really exist."

Are you suggesting that there is some kind of debate whether religion really exists? I know where you were going but this analogy isn't just strained, it's completely broken. A more apt analogy would be whether the cow has "feelings" or can be psychologically "damaged" by slaughterhouse practices. The cow is there to be domesticated or not. Arguments over incidental facts about the cow need not be resolved except insofar as they impact the domesticability of said cow or its value as livestock.

"I don't think Dennett would view a world filled with constructive falsehoods as anything more than a stopgap solution."

I disagree in the following sense; Dennett is a strong believer (or if you want to avoid the argument over what someone allegedly "thinks"- he repeatedly expresses belief) in gradualism. The most efficient path, indeed sometimes the only tractable path from here to there is the many small steps along the way. I read Dennett to be saying that the only real (or maybe just the best, safest, least treacherous) path from superstition to a widely accepted rational worldview is one that provides a means of preserving the traditions and values that make our world and our societies worth living in. He talks about "catastrophic loss of consensus". If we just run around tearing away willy nilly at religious belief without doing something to shore up many other beliefs that are strongly associated in peoples minds with religious belief, it may be tantamount to starting a strong and widely circulated rumor that all of our banks are insolvent. In the same way that our electronic economy (paper money accounts for less than 1% of money in "circulation") depends on a set of common beliefs about money's value and stability, our moral framework depends on a set of common beliefs that we tamper with at our peril. Rather than a stopgap measure (which implies a temporary and unstable band-aid) approach, I think that Dennett views the domestication of religion (or creating an environment of ideas that is toxic to "wild" strains) as a bridge, a solid and navigable path that can safely transport us from here to there.

Other Comments by ConsciousMachine

42. Comment #222080 by Scep on July 30, 2008 at 2:37 pm

Too many arguments are caused by misunderstandings, poor definitions and a strange need to "believe in belief in God".

But this thought by Daniel seems crystal clear:
"I think that there are no forces on this planet more dangerous to us all than the fanaticisms of fundamentalism, of all the species: Protestantism, Catholicism, Judaism, Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism, as well as countless smaller infections. Is there a conflict between science and religion here? There most certainly is." [Daniel C. Dennett, Darwin's Dangerous Idea]

Other Comments by Scep

43. Comment #222172 by Don_Quix on July 30, 2008 at 8:35 pm

 avatarAll that really needs to be said is:

Daniel C. Dennett III is the grandfather everyone wishes they had.

Other Comments by Don_Quix

44. Comment #222403 by liberalartist on July 31, 2008 at 12:13 pm

 avatarI am currently reading "Darwin's Dangerous Idea" and its great. I have also enjoyed a number of his lectures online, you can find most on youtube. Dennett is a great teacher, and who can resist that santa-clause-face?!

Other Comments by liberalartist

45. Comment #222500 by Tauriq on July 31, 2008 at 1:25 pm

Dennett is a genius. Even if he is sometimes a bit dry with his writing.

Other Comments by Tauriq

46. Comment #223096 by gruepig on August 1, 2008 at 12:57 pm

Lucas:

Too bad Tufts doesn't have a graduate program. My old roommate had Dennett as an undergrad advisor; sad to say it was probably wasted on him that he had such a genius advising him. What he's doing at the Center, though, is worth it I suppose. I should really get around to his books.


Tufts has a masters-only graduate program in philosophy. See http://ase.tufts.edu/philosophy/programs/graduate.shtml.

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47. Comment #223099 by J Mac on August 1, 2008 at 1:09 pm

 avatarLiberalartist,

It's an amazing book. Quite possibly my favorite book or at least currently tied with Matt Ridley's "Red Queen."

However the last chapter on morality is rather anticlimactic. He does make many good points in it of course, but when I finished it I just really felt as though he dropped the ball. Throughout the whole book he is unwavering in his logic and deep analyses, but in the last chapter it really seemed like he threw up his hands and said "oh well, thats all I can do."

I finished the book and just sat there thinking "wait, thats it?"

But still, a single page out of the early chapters has more content than most authors entire book.

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