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Thursday, November 9, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document The Dawkins Delusion (Different Article, Same Stupid Title)

by Prof Alister E. McGrath

Who's more creative? Who copied who? You decide:
Read the other article titled 'The Dawkins Delusion' here

Reposted from:
http://www.theosthinktank.co.uk/The_Dawkins_Delusion.aspx?ArticleID=50&PageID=11&RefPageID=5

Richard Dawkins' latest book The God Delusion fires off a series of salvoes against religion. It is perhaps his weakest book to date, marred by its excessive reliance on bold assertion and rhetorical flourish, where the issues so clearly demand careful reflection and painstaking analysis, based on the best evidence available. Attractive precisely because it is simplistic, Dawkins demands the eradication of religion. Only when it is eliminated can the human race rest secure! Get rid of religion, and the world will be a better place. It is a familiar theme, if stated with greater fervour than before.

But is it right? What happens if a society rejects the idea of God? The evidence suggests that it transcendentalizes alternatives — such as the ideals of liberty or equality. These now become quasi-divine authorities, which none are permitted to challenge. Perhaps the most familiar example of this dates from the French Revolution, at a time when traditional notions of God were discarded as obsolete, and replaced by transcendentalized human values. Madame Rolande was brought to the guillotine to face execution on trumped-up charges in 1792. As she prepared to die, she bowed mockingly towards the statue of liberty in the Place de la Révolution, and uttered the words for which she is remembered: "liberty, what crimes are committed in your name." All ideals — divine, transcendent, human, or invented — are capable of being abused. That's just the way human nature is. And knowing this, we need to work out what to do about it, rather than lashing out uncritically at religion.

Suppose Dawkins were to have his way, and that religion were to be eradicated. Would that end the divisions within humanity? Certainly not. Such divisions are ultimately social constructs, which reflect the fundamental sociological need for communities to self-define, and identify those who are "in" and those who are "out"; those who are "friends", and those who are "foes". The importance of "binary opposition" in shaping perceptions of identity has been highlighted in recent years, not least on account of the major debate between different schools of critical thought over whether such "oppositions" determine and shape human thought, or are the outcome of human thought. A series of significant "binary oppositions" are held to have shaped western thought — such as "male-female" and "white-black". This binary opposition leads to the construction of the category of "the other" — the devalued half of a binary opposition, when applied to groups of people. Group identity is often fostered by defining "the other" — as, for example, in Nazi Germany, with its opposition "Aryan-Jew". At times, this binary opposition is defined in religious terms — as in "Catholic-Protestant", or "believer-infidel".

Let's look at one of these, which I experienced at first hand when growing up in during the 1960s. Primarily for sociological reasons, the binary opposition "Catholic-Protestant" came to be perceived as normative. Each side saw its opponent as "the other", a perception that was relentlessly reinforced by novelists and other shapers of public opinion. Media reporting of the social unrest in from 1970 to about 1995 reinforced the plausibility of this judgement. Yet this is a historically conditioned oppositionalism, shaped and determined by complex social forces. It is not a specifically religious phenomenon. Religion was merely the social demarcator that dominated in this situation. In others, the demarcators would have to do with ethnic or cultural origins, language, gender, age, social class, sexual orientation, wealth, tribal allegiance, ethical values, or political views.

Dawkins' simplistic assertion that the elimination of religion would lead to the ending of violence, social tension, or discrimination is thus sociologically naïve. It fails to take account of the way in which human beings create values and norms, and make sense of their identity and their surroundings. If religion were to cease to exist, other social demarcators would emerge as decisive, becoming transcendentalized as necessary in response to the situation. Dawkins has no interest in sociology, as might be expected. Yet the study of how individuals and societies function casts serious doubt on one of the most fundamental assertions of Dawkins' analysis.

The question of the future role of religion in is far too important to leave to the fanatics, or to atheist fundamentalists. There is a real need to deal with the ultimate causes of social division and exclusion. Religion's in there, along with a myriad of other factors. Yet, it can cause problems. But it also has the capacity to transform, creating a deep sense of personal identity and value, and bringing social cohesion. Let's skip the rhetoric, and cut to the reality. It's much less simple — but it might actually help us address the real social issue that we face in modern Britian.

Alister E. McGrath is Professor of Historical Theology at Oxford University. A former atheist himself, he has written extensively on atheism, particularly the ideas of Richard Dawkins, and their foundations in modern science. His book "The Dawkins Delusion" will be published by SPCK in February 2007.

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1. Comment #5458 by Fedler on November 9, 2006 at 3:00 pm

I don't ever recall reading in The God Delusion where Dawkins states that if religion is eliminated than the world would be a shiny-happy utopia. Religion is a problem, but I believe Prof. Dawkins states on several occasions, that religion is not the only problem. Did Prof. McGrath actually read the book that closely? I'm guessing not. It sounds like he got offended early on (maybe not even beyond Chapter 1), closed his mind (along with the book) and felt obliged to offer an opinion.

One would think if Prof. McGrath wanted to be critical, he ought to at least do his homework.

2. Comment #5460 by Greywizard on November 9, 2006 at 3:03 pm

Anyone who has read anything by McGrath will know that this is his MO. He does not represent his opponents fairly. He is not honest in the way that he deals with his subject matters. He is biased, agenda driven and inaccurate. Read "The Twilight of Atheism" if you are in any doubt. He is simply not to be taken seriously. I'm not even sure he takes himself seriously. Surely, no one who really cares can be as shoddy in scholarship as Professor McGrath. He convinced me, all by himself, that atheism must be true.

3. Comment #5462 by Brian on November 9, 2006 at 3:09 pm

It's probably true that removal of one divisive sociological construct woud be replaced by another - that's human nature. Hopefully, though, it would be one borne of reason rather than mythology. Religious constructs are perpetually divisive because they lack reason or commonality. Take religion out of the equation and anything is possible. At the end of the day we are all humans - isn't that the start of commonality and progress towards rational behaviour that is inclusive not divisive?

4. Comment #5463 by David S on November 9, 2006 at 3:09 pm

"Dawkins' simplistic assertion that the elimination of religion would lead to the ending of violence, social tension, or discrimination is thus sociologically naïve."

I have read TGD, I don't remember Dawkins saying anything like this.

Since this fellow can't address the carefully and completely crafted position of the book, he attacks Dawkins himself. This shows the inherent weakness of the arguments in favor of the "God Hypothesis".

5. Comment #5464 by vega on November 9, 2006 at 3:17 pm

You're correct Fedler. McGrath sets up a straw man and knocks it down. Well - duh.

His main argument is, without the belief in/delusion of religion, society would collapse into anarchy. So let's leave our comfortable little religious beliefs alone for the time being and deal with the other socially divisive issues.

"Let's skip the rhetoric, and cut to the reality" Maybe he should take his own advice.

Anybody here be buying his book?

6. Comment #5466 by Jack Rawlinson on November 9, 2006 at 3:25 pm

Oh god. Another inattentive dolt who is more interested in beating straw men than the arguments Dawkins actually advances in the book. Nowhere does Dawkins say that eliminating religion would eliminate violence, social tension or discrimination. In fact he openly concedes that religion is not the only source of such things.

As for "transcendentalizing alternatives", this is a red herring of McGrath's own shameless devising. Had he paid attention to Dawkins' position - not only in "The God Delusion" but throughout his written works and speeches - it would be quite clear that RD is every bit as much against such wider forms of irrationality as he is the specific irrationality of religion. Dawkins is not simply saying "scrap religion". He's saying "scrap irrationality, especially the particularly appalling and widespread irrationality of religion". But he means all irrationality - in fact he also goes after "New Age" nonsense, pseudo-religious political movements such as extreme communism and so on.

Professor of Historical Theology? Hysterical Theology, more like. As if there's any other kind.

7. Comment #5468 by CF1 on November 9, 2006 at 3:35 pm

Anybody notice that Mr. McGrath never really suggested that religion isn't nonsense? He would rather continue on dragging that big bucket behind his boat instead of discarding it and making better progress.

How do these guys become professors?

8. Comment #5471 by HappyFlesh on November 9, 2006 at 3:46 pm

I've heard of judging a book by the cover, but reviewing by the cover? That's a shameless sinecure.

9. Comment #5474 by vega on November 9, 2006 at 3:59 pm

Hey - if this guy is Professor of Historical Theology, he should know that religious beliefs derive from solar mythology; that Jesus Christ was not an historical figure, but just another in a long line of 'sun gods'. Shame on him...

10. Comment #5475 by Manfred on November 9, 2006 at 4:06 pm

Was he really trying to defend religion? This was the weakest argument I have ever heard.

I think Richard Dawkins never said that religion is the only root of all the problems and evils in the world. But one with the most influence and reach for centuries and at the present time.
Also, by fighting religion with reason and free thought, people can see that other existing roots of the ills in the world which are seen as creeds (like extreme nationalism) can be dealt with similarly.

11. Comment #5478 by Manfred on November 9, 2006 at 4:21 pm

William: "You know, I wonder how many of these 'believers' actually believe?"

I strongly doubt that many of the theologians, priests, reverands, ayatollahs, muftis, rabbis, etc. etc. really believe in what they preach. For one thing, they never stick up to the stuff they expect their followers obey.
How many muslim clerics have you seen who is willing to blow himself up to go to heaven? One would think that should be highly desirable for them, no?
The same case with the whole lot of them. They are just enjoying the money, power and respect that society grants them because of their "holiness".And they can only get and keep all these if they keep preaching and spreading ignorance.

12. Comment #5483 by Yorker on November 9, 2006 at 4:45 pm

Yes, it appears that McGrath just read the cover of TGD and that was enough to prompt his erroneous blethering. Is it possible that jealousy of Dawkins literary success is really the driving force behind such an obviously flawed and ill-thought through attack? Maybe the fear that Dawkins arguments may hasten the demise of theology and put McGrath out of work, is another contributing factor.

Titling his own book "The Dawkins Delusion" is a cheap trick that perhaps McGrath thinks will boost sales; it's certainly a catchy title, catchy enough to remind me not to buy it anyway! Perhaps AC Grayling will publish a book titled "The McGrath Confusion" in response; that would be fun!

Please excuse me for using only his surname [McGrath], I can't bring myself to apply the word "professor" to any person whose only claim to academic distinction is based upon study of the world's longest-running fairy tale.

13. Comment #5484 by Homosapien on November 9, 2006 at 4:46 pm

Wow, McGrath had just ended the need for all medical research, all efforts for his own religion's mission works, and anyone working for the elimination of pain and suffering of any form, since no single effort will eradicate, completely, any one form of pain or suffering. Can we get some intelligent objections to Dawkins, something we can really sink our teeth into?

14. Comment #5485 by David S on November 9, 2006 at 4:48 pm

I think it is probable that they believe in their rhetoric but not in their god. They have to hold on to the god because without it their rhetoric means nothing. These people seem to be motivated out of fear; they fear standing alone in a world where they are responsible for their own actions.

How helpful fear was for survival in earlier evolution, but how disastrous now.

Just my own little theory throw out, off the cuff, as it were.

-Cheers

15. Comment #5487 by Riley on November 9, 2006 at 4:58 pm

[ Alister E. McGrath QUOTE} But [religion] also has the capacity to transform, creating a deep sense of personal identity and value, and bringing social cohesion.
----------------------------------------

This is the saving attribute of religion?

Isn't this exactly the problem with religion?

That uncritically derived truths inspire a deep sense of personal identity? Even worse, that a grander social cohesion under this irrationally based structure should result? By what other means could ANY ORGANIZATION provide both the justification and the means to wrought great mischief on a global scale?

----------------------------------------
----------------------------------------



--

16. Comment #5488 by MakingBelieve on November 9, 2006 at 5:02 pm

RD must be hitting very close to home to trigger a rebuttal book with such a blatantly ad hominem, unoriginal title, obviously calculated to sell, not on its own merits, but on the notoriety of TGD's success.

It's an astute strategy (his publisher I'm sure) for if the arguments in this new book will be as thin as outlined in this article, it would be the only way to move it off the shelves.

"The question of the future role of religion is far too important to leave to the fanatics, or to atheist fundamentalists."

While there certainly are religious 'fanatics', there are no 'atheist fundamentalists', only people who demand sufficient credible evidence for religion's claims about the universe. It may annoy those with lesser standards for belief but it is hardly fundamentalism.

McGrath claims that, without God, society will 'transcendentalize' values like 'liberty' or 'equality' which would be equally bad or worse. I doubt he can make this case but even if he can, he wants to imply that seeking and valuing 'truth' is in the same vein. That would be arguing for ignorance on its 'social merits'. At its core, this is fatalistic and disrespectful of human potential.

"There is a real need to deal with the ultimate causes of social division and exclusion."

Certainly so and RD is calling out one of the most divisive and pernicious causes ever constructed.

"Religion's in there, along with a myriad of other factors. Yet, it can cause problems."

That's a bumbling understatement.

"But it also has the capacity to transform, creating a deep sense of personal identity and value, and bringing social cohesion."

Yes. At its worst, a mindless, uncritical, intolerant in-group-identity bent on Borg-like assimilation of out-groups in the name of 'cohesion'.

"Let's skip the rhetoric, and cut to the reality. It's much less simple – but it might actually help us address the real social issue that we face in modern Britain."

I'm sorry, but before McGrath can invoke a call to reality, he needs to show as honest a commitment to it as Richard Dawkins.

17. Comment #5489 by Janus on November 9, 2006 at 5:08 pm

Ah, I've seen this argument before. The tactic is to convince the reader that ideologies (religions included) don't have any influence on the way people behave. Ideologies are morally neutral (or morally good), it's _people_ who twist them to further their evil ends.

That's obviously nonsense that not even McGrath himself truly believes. The whole POINT of ideologies is to alter the way people think. Is McGrath saying that had Nazi youths not been raised in the National Socialist ideology, they would have been just as evil? Puh-leez.

Of course, no one's saying that ideologies control EVERYTHING their followers think and do. That's precisely Dawkins' point in chapter 7 (or is it 8?), where he argues that even fundamentalists cherry-pick the 'nice' parts of their scripture. But does that mean that these fundamentalists would have been just as homophobic, and just as hateful if they hadn't been indoctrinated in Christianity or Islam? Obviously not.

One needs only look at Christianity's core beliefs to see that...
1) It elevates faith as a virtue, which strongly discourages intellectual freedom.
2) It states that the Christian God is THE only source of morality in the universe, which strongly discourages moral freedom.
3) It condemns all other religions as misguided (at best), which strongly discourages religious freedom.

An ideology may not represent the totality of its followers' beliefs, but it certainly is a significant part of it. It's a fact that faced with certain moral dilemnas, the average Christian will behave very differently than the average secular humanist.

As for the rest of the article, as people have pointed out, it's just one huge strawman of Dawkins' stance. Professor Dawkins needs to stop being so damn respectful of those he calls 'sophisticated theologians'. Their beliefs may not be as crude as those of fundamentalists, and they may not hold beliefs that are as morally repugnant, but they're just as intellectually dishonest. Actually, scratch that, in my experience theologians are usually much MORE dishonest than the average fundy. McGrath and his ilk are a disgrace to the intellectual community.

18. Comment #5495 by Manfred on November 9, 2006 at 6:44 pm

As Steven Wienberg said:
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion. "

19. Comment #5497 by CF1 on November 9, 2006 at 6:45 pm

In addition to what David S. said above (post #21), all people of any religious stripe, (especially fundy christians come to mind), are also human and are subject to what all of us are subject to: BASIC HUMAN PRIDE.

In their case though, they seem to contain a double-dose of said pride, possibly stemming from that "group solidarity" that RD eluded to in "The Root of all Evil?" film.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again, they seem impenetrable to reason. It's as though they're on a drug of some sort that prevents them from seeing the bloody obvious.

I am undescribably appreciative of RD, Sam Harris and the like, but I also really wonder about our future given this imaginary god-virus so many of our species has.

20. Comment #5512 by Pootatuck on November 9, 2006 at 8:11 pm

This is what passes for scholarly discourse at Oxford? I find that disturbing. I haven't read any of Dawkins' books as of yet. I have wandered around this website and found the articles and comments to be dead on. This McGrath sounds like he is trying to ride Mr. Dawkins' coattails to a literary career. He better not quit his day job.

I have a visceral reaction anytime someone mentions organized religion and get the urge to empty my bowels. I have offered to put my dog on Mormons and Seventh Day Adventists that disturb me on Sunday mornings and refuse to leave.

As an American Indian I can tell you my people were victimized and brutalized in the name of Christianity. Manifest destiny was viewed as white America's god given right to steal from my people and murder us if we objected. Indian people of my grandmother's generation were sent to government sponsored boarding schools where their mouths were washed out with soap if they spoke their native tongue. All in the name of bringing Christianity to us savages. On the Canadian side of the border, boarding schools lasted for an additional generation. The government is now offering monetary settlements to Indian people who were physically, emotionally and sexually abused in these Christian concentration camps. The despair, suicide and alcoholism in many present day communities is attributable to the forceful imposition of Christianity.

And all that gold in the Vatican basement, where does he think that came from? I'm sure it provides catholic social cohesion.

If McGrath ever comes to the states, please tell him to stop by ………… and kiss my ass.

21. Comment #5514 by Randy Ping on November 9, 2006 at 8:12 pm

Some memetic viri resist treatment. Up the dosage.

22. Comment #5515 by Anonymous on November 9, 2006 at 8:14 pm

23. Comment #5546 by Jonathan Dore on November 9, 2006 at 10:59 pm

So McGrath is publishing yet another book "rebutting" Dawkins next year -- but he already published "Dawkins' God" last year (getting his "rebuttal" in first, as it were). One book with an opponent's name in the title might be understandable, if lame; but *two* is somewhere between a schoolboy crush and the obsessive mania of a stalker.

24. Comment #5591 by George Jelliss on November 10, 2006 at 2:55 am

No-one seems to have noticed where this article comes from. It appears on the website of the new "Theos Think Tank" which seems to have been set up with the express purpose of countering the current burst of atheistic publicity. It's significant that their first "debate", however ineffective, is against Dawkins.

We need to get them to make clear their positions on subjects where the churches they represent do not have a consistent view, such as on homosexuality, women's rights and the evolution-creation debate. Their FAQ page claims that they are neither catholic nor protestant and neither evangelical nor liberal in religion. How then can they possibly project a coherent point of view, other than by being ambiguous and vague?

25. Comment #5595 by Aussie on November 10, 2006 at 3:31 am

Alister McGrath? Who is he?

26. Comment #5604 by Aussie on November 10, 2006 at 4:12 am

What's wrong with religion?

1) My oldest and closest friend was a "Catholic child" while I was a "Protestant child". I learned to regard him as somehow inherently inferior to "us" - a form of untermensch. I assume his attitude to me was reciprocated as a result of the "facts" that he was taught. The insidiousness of the indoctrination has caused this irrational attitude of mine to persist into adult life - impervious to any attempt at intellectual purging. And yet he is still my oldest and closest friend. I have just had to learn to live with the subliminal prejudice in much the same way as many people do who suffer from a constant ringing in the ears.

2) I met and married a Catholic girl in Europe. When my maternal grandfather heard about it he hit the roof. "Why couldn't he have married a nice Protestant girl". The ironic thing about this was that I had never known him to attend a church of any kind. Fortunately when I brought her home to Oz his objections very rapidly melted away.

3) My paternal grandfather would not let me walk up the street in one direction from his house. "If you walk up there you will pass the Catholic Church where the devil lives and he will jump out and get you."

Fortunately I am not seriously scarred unlike some others who require intensive therapy.

27. Comment #5644 by Skeptic Jim on November 10, 2006 at 8:42 am

Where did all this straw come from? Anyone got a match?

28. Comment #5693 by Duncan1349 on November 10, 2006 at 1:54 pm

It might be of interest to you to hear McGrath's recent speech, it lasts well over an hour (maybe 2...i lost track). It will give you an idea of what his book is about, if you dont wish to wait or line his pockets.

http://www.citychurchsf.org/openforum/Audio/OF_Alister_McGrath.mp3

29. Comment #5699 by Aussie on November 10, 2006 at 2:09 pm

"I have not read Dawkins' book as yet, but I ..."

Might I suggest that it would actually help to have read the object of your criticism before making assumptions and jumping to conclusions.

For many years I have had a fascination with the elegance of Darwinian evolution and its ability to explain so much of what we observe around us - while relying on so few assumptions. The most notable popular educators in this field have been the late Stephen Jay Gould and Richard Dawkins. I have impatiently awaited each of Dawkin's works as they have approached completion.

I must admit to being somewhat annoyed by this brilliant mind having been sidetracked into a scientifically unproductive effort to defend rationality from the scourge of mediaeval superstition. I am still hoping for at least one more great symphony on science before Dawkins finally hangs up his boots.

Before reading TGD I was informed by someone I greatly respect that this "preacher of atheism" was dangerous as he expounded on subjects of which he was both ignorant and uneducated. So I approached my brand new copy of this book determined to be as critical and as objective as possible and to uncover any defects in fact or logic that I could find.

Maybe my many intellectual limitations precluded detection of the glaring errors and inconsistencies that would have been obvious to someone more capable and informed than I, but in truth I could find nothing but well reasoned argument supported by compelling logic.

Nevertheless, I must admit that when I first came to this website I was at first unsettled by what appeared to be an emerging personality cult centred around Dawkins that was composed of people some of whom, unlike Dawkins, themselves appeared less than rational in their objections to religion.

However, I soon realised that to some extent this website is performing the function of a group therapy session where people who have been psychologically damaged by their previous exposure to religion can undergo a catharsis in an attempt to liberate themselves from the worst of its consequences. As a result some of the comment seen here will have the appearance of the irrationality one would expect from a damaged mind attempting to "cast out the demons".

30. Comment #5706 by goddogit on November 10, 2006 at 2:55 pm

It is the length and depth of Prof. McGrath that left me speechless, since choking snickering makes it difficult to say anything.
He must have been some shallow atheist as well (they are surprisingly common, these "atheists" who are simply too self-absorbed in their own "uniqueness!).

Not that I give two twigs, but I suspect if I went back and examined this man's publications as "A former atheist himself, [who] has written extensively on atheism, particularly the ideas of Richard Dawkins, and their foundations in modern science" I would find ideas just as silly and pointless. And I very much think I would find a man whose "theism" is tightly linked to his pocketbook and career-ambitions - in plain words another hired flea sucking a living off of Dawkins' work.
Ack! I don't care, so long as he doesn't marry into the family.

31. Comment #5780 by gengar on November 11, 2006 at 3:41 am

I went to a public lecture given by McGrath on Thursday, and I was extremely unimpressed. Given his status and credentials I was hoping for some meaty arguments which would at least give me some pause for thought - instead he just put up a sequence of strawmen and proceeded to blow them down with waffle.

I was wondering whether he was just playing to the audience, but this article and the comments here would suggest not.

32. Comment #5781 by maryhelena on November 11, 2006 at 3:44 am

Aussie wrote:

However, I soon realised that to some extent this website is performing the function of a group therapy session where people who have been psychologically damaged by their previous exposure to religion can undergo a catharsis in an attempt to liberate themselves from the worst of its consequences. As a result some of the comment seen here will have the appearance of the irrationality one would expect from a damaged mind attempting to "cast out the demons".

All very well - although I would much prefer if this sort of thing was done behind closed doors. Airing ones dirty washing, so to speak, is not the best advertisement for advancing the secular/humanist/atheist agenda.

Have a notice board of sorts - somewhere for the visiting theists to post any irrationality they feel the need for . But surely not, not a very public forum where visiting theists are able to raise the feathers of some of the newer atheists. If TGD is going to be bringing more atheists out of the closet, and bringing them to this site, then the very last thing this site needs is to become a sort of atheist kindergarten - somewhere that allows for games of the I am better than you sort of thing. Dawkins himself has said, somewhere, that he does not wish to debate creationists on public platforms - why then does he allow less mature atheists, less seasoned atheists, a public platform, on his website, for some sort of cat fight with theists?

33. Comment #5786 by William on November 11, 2006 at 4:05 am

David said:

>>Of course I realise he is a busy man and has a lot of books to sell. I also realise that he is preaching to the converted.<<

Your tone here is that the Professor is only selling books - in order to grow rich? You say 'converted', as if Atheism is a type of Faith.

I suggest you check your premises - all Theists do is attack Atheism - instead of providing HARD EMPIRICAL EVIDENCE of a supernatural explanation as to the origins of life. Further, there is NO POINT in debating with Theists. You come up with extremely silly notions when asked direct questions and/ or you skip around them. I'll debate you if I wish. But we won't convince each other, so what is the point?

As for financial gain - that monopoly is contorlled extremely skilfully by the Church. You endow yourselves with special titles such as Bishop, Archbishop, Cardinal, Pope - as if you're somehow better than the rest of us, as if you're special channels to God. And you have a monopoly on school education - my children have been taught ridiculous nonesense about many varied faiths - yet they know little of evolution, the big bang and Atheism. Onwards Christian soldiers, eh?

You revel in your ancient texts, which explain NOTHING of the true nature and wonder of our universe. Genesis? What a joke of an explanation that is. Revelations? OOH! Let's all be scared of this AMAZING God and his wonderful return.

If it were left to Theists, we wouldn't have gained modern medicine, Space travel, Computer Technology, Aviation or any of the wonders of 21st Century life.

No. You'd love us all to be in Church Sunday, confused, scared and worried about saving our Earthly souls. You want us back in caves complete with ignorance, witch-hunts, doom, superstition and fear. Only God can know the truth - according to you lot.

THAT'S what religion is. And it's an invention of man.

Kind Regards, William.

34. Comment #5818 by G Bile on November 11, 2006 at 9:02 am

This article by professor McGrath presents the lamest 'excuse' for religion I ever read.
Consider:
*Suppose Dawkins were to have his way, and that religion were to be eradicated. Would that end the divisions within humanity? Certainly not. Such divisions are ultimately social constructs, which reflect the fundamental sociological need for communities to self-define, and identify those who are "in" and those who are "out"; those who are "friends", and those who are "foes".*

From this I conclude that prof. McGrath probably does not believe in God, creation, afterlife etc., but wants to keep religion, and its conduct-shaping tools of fear-induction and heaven-promising, in order to 'tame the masses', who would otherwise start killing each other without delay.
This attitude would be an insult to most inhabitants of the planet, in my opinion, and is unnecessary pessimistic.
Once the ultimate divisionary influences of religion are eradicated with religion itself, the remaining divisions of humanity will manifest themselves on the Soccer World Cup !

from an optimistic atheist.

35. Comment #5824 by Anonymous on November 11, 2006 at 9:48 am

Has this guy ever heard of a country called Sweden?

36. Comment #5849 by Jack Sparrow on November 11, 2006 at 11:36 am

"Dawkins needs to go head to head [with McGrath]"

Problem is, McGrath has already requested Dawkins to debate him publically and he refused. Similarly Dawkins has consistently refused to debate Phillip Johnson the American legal professor and ID 'luminary'. In fact this is typical of such leading evolutionists inc Steve Jones. they even admit their refusal to debate but they insist that its because they refuse to give the creationists/ID advocates the publicity. Of course one might interpret their refusal to debate as a recognition that it is the evolutionists who would get their butt whipped.
In fact if you watch the creationist video 'From a Frog to a Prince' Dawkins comes off badly as admitted by a australian secularist who heard the entire audio recording.
However, the fact remains that McGrath/Johnson have asked as Dawkins has declined.

37. Comment #5850 by Jack Sparrow on November 11, 2006 at 11:39 am

Sorry about last post didn't notice point already made by post 53

38. Comment #6133 by Richard on November 12, 2006 at 7:26 pm

My oh my. Such fanciful language. All in the name of declaring there is no God. The uppity supercilious group wants to disbelieve there is a God and offer such inane reasons why that it is hard to stomach. And they want the rest of us to do the same as they do.
God gave us a free will. MY church tells me I am free and so I am. God gave us a free will which we can use or not use. You people speak of gold in basements of Churches. Do you honestly think that the athiest CEO of a large company does NOT keep his riches in a hidden place. At least the Bible gives us good reason to have high morals. What do the athiest do? There are digustingly bad folks everywhere. To suggest that all religious people are sinless is to be absurdly naive.
But then the Bible gives us a guide to morality. If there were no God, why is it that all people everywhere have a God to worship. His majesty of absurdity, Mr Dawkins, could not answer THAT question recently in one of his diatribes.
In our country it is not forbidden to express your views. So Mr Dawkins, carry on with your message. I'll not waste my time reading your written thoughts. I have Good Samaritan things to do in my 80 year.

39. Comment #6320 by goddogit on November 13, 2006 at 3:55 pm

"I hereby formally offer/challenge Mr Dawkins to a debate anywhere he likes. Of course I realise he is a busy man and has a lot of books to sell. I also realise that he is preaching to the converted. And most of all I realise that I am a nobody in terms of public prestige etc - it would be a kind of David v. Goliath situation. But remember what happened there (allegedly!). Anyway here' teh [sic] challenge. I await his response!"

Dear Honesty! What a self-impressed ass you are, Mr. Robertson! I'd need to call in MP&TFC to properly lampoon your blazing, foundation-less vanity!
Here's an idea: pull a Leo Tolstoy and look into actually PRACTISING the Christian doctrine instead of "defending" it. THAT would impress people like me, although we would be able to - while working on real problems together -respectfully disagree about the whole "god/s" question.
Still, at least have the decency to, as we Americans say, get a job!

Enough, though, if boring me off this thread constitutes victory to your silly, small mind, you may claim it.

40. Comment #6323 by Jonathan Dore on November 13, 2006 at 4:02 pm

Jack Sparrow wrote: "In fact if you watch the creationist video 'From a Frog to a Prince' Dawkins comes off badly as admitted by a australian secularist who heard the entire audio recording."

If you're interested in what actually happened, you can read about it in Dawkins's essay "The Information Challenge" in the collection "A Devil's Chaplain". Here are the first couple of paragraphs:

"In September 1997, I allowed an Australian film crew into my house in Oxford without realizing that their purpose was creationist propaganda. In the course of a suspiciously amateurish interview, they issued a truculent challenge to me to 'give an example of a genetic mutation or an evolutionary process which can be seen to increase the information in the genome'. It is the kind of question that only a creationist would ask in that way, and it was at this point I tumbled to the fact that I had been duped into granting an interview to creationists -- a thing I normally don't do, for good reasons. In my anger I refused to discuss the question further, and told them to stop the camera. However, I eventually withdrew my peremptory termination of the interview, because they pleaded with me that they had come all the way from Australia specifically in order to interview me. Even if this was a considerable exaggeration, it seemed, on reflection, ungenerous to tear up the legal release form and throw them out. I therefore relented.

"My generosity was rewarded in a fashion that anyone familiar with fundamentalist tactics might have predicted. I found that it had been edited to give the false impression that I was *incapable* of answering the question about information content. [A footnote here reads: See Barry Williams, 'Creationist Deception Exposed', The Skeptic, 18 (1998), 3, pp. 7-10, for an account of how my long pause (trying to decide whether to throw them out) was made to look like hesitant inability to answer the question, followed by an apparently evasive answer to a completely different question.] In fairness, this might not have been as intentionally deceitful as it sounds. You have to understand that these people really *believe* that their question *cannot* be answered! Pathetic as it sounds, their entire journey from Australia seems to have been a quest to film an evolutionist failing to answer it."

He then proceeds, in the rest of the essay, to give an eloquent answer to the "information" question. If you're actually interested in the answer, Jack, I'm sure you'd benefit from reading it.

41. Comment #6372 by Venator on November 14, 2006 at 12:05 am

For Anyone in the area and interested.

Prof. Mcgrath will be giving a lecture on "The Twilight of Atheism" on the 13th December at the University of Strathclyde, Glasgow as part of the Royal Philosophilcal Society of Glasgow lectures.

42. Comment #6420 by Mike on November 14, 2006 at 6:24 am

As so many in this thread have said, Prof McGrath has willfully misrepresented Dawkin's thesis that religions are built on myth and contribute to the man made ills of society. These religions contribute to man's capacity to discriminate between the 'in' group and the'out group'.

There is no evidence that we would be worse off without religion and Dawkins makes a good case that we might well be better off.

McGraths argument that we need to keep religion even if it based on a mirage ( and I take it he really means his version) because worse might befall us does not hold water. He provides no empirical evidence for his contention.

Pootatuck and Marcus Allison give sad testimony of man's capacity for inhumanity to his fellows seen to be in the 'out' group. Dawkins argues strongly that this nastiness is fuelled by religion rather than softened by it. I would urge you both to read TGD. It is a good read and can be amusing.

Marcus also has a very poignant take on the need, amongst the oppressed and abused, for religion and the comfort it can provide even if it is based on myth. Therefore why rock the boat? I would argue that other forms of social cohesion and succour can provide as much comfort. Indeed there is good evidence that music (Jazz) provided as much comfort as religion without being based on nonsense. Dawkins admits that our brains are very prone to religious memes, which makes them all the more dangerous.

I would also argue that, in our early evolution there was survival advantage in these memes by reinforcing clan identities at times of conflict and maintenance of 'feeding' territory. Group Selection hypothesis.

It is however very worrying that Americans bidding for a place on Capitol Hill need to espouse Christianity to get the votes. Where is the separation of Church(s) and state?

43. Comment #15182 by alangdon on December 29, 2006 at 10:43 am

McGRath's book is well worth a read. He makes some decent points. Still, if that's the best defence of theism that Oxford can come up with, Dawkin's need not worry.
Incidentally, does anyone know when Christian theologians became more interested in defending theology than defending Christianity, and when they started writing off the views of the majority of believers as irrelevant? (something McGRath does continuously- I suspect the vast majority of Christians around the globe would willingly identify them more closely with Dawkins view of the Christian God than with McGRath's)?

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44. Comment #15620 by seb07 on January 1, 2007 at 4:26 pm

I have just finished reading Dawkin's God - a book by Alistair McGrath. Of course on an atheist website, it is difficult to find any respect for someone who plays Devil's advocate and points out flaws in an argument, and that's all this is about - an argument. I think Dawkin's books are fabulous, well-written and very engaging. I also think McGrath's books are just as interesting. It's funny how commenters here have said that McGrath puts up straw men to knock down, and how unqualified he is to make any statements on the subject. A little bit of research will show that he is highly qualified in science and theology and is just trying to have a more intellectual debate instead of just getting angry. I'd love to know if anyone has read any of his books and what they thought?

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45. Comment #120693 by TrueBeliever on February 2, 2008 at 10:31 am

McGrath is right. If you take the position that man created god and not vice versa then ask yourself why. Is it because of the reason Dawkins believes, that man uses religion to justify war? Well if that's true and you eliminate religion then people will just create new reasons to justify war. Napolean, Mao Tse-tung, Pol Pot, Stalin, Lenin, and probably Castro are or were atheists. None of them ever used god as a reason to justify their actions. So tell me how the world would be better off if religion was banned. Race, ethnicity, social status and greed are just some of the reasons people go to war and they have nothing to do with religion. So if you want to ban religion then you might as well go the whole nine yards like Hitler tried to and eliminate everyone that isn't white with blond hair and blue eyes. If you think just eliminating religion is going to bring peace to the world then you're naive.

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46. Comment #150435 by Tim Nelson on March 26, 2008 at 11:02 pm

Religious apologists, including McGrath, make frequent attacks on "atheism" by trying to bring it down to their own level: they kid themselves (and try to kid others) that atheism is a "belief", or more ludicrously a "religion" in its own right and hence subject to all the same weaknesses and flaws of their own nonsense.

Without going into the details, which are fairly obvious, I can understand the naïve psychology of this tactic. However, atheism is not a "belief" at all; it is the natural, neutral state of the human mind. No baby is ever born with an innate, instinctive belief in a supernatural god, let alone the authorised, Judeo-Christian version. We are all born atheists; we all choose our beliefs in a god or gods. Unfortunately, many of us have our beliefs "chosen" for us by our parents, teachers, peer groups, and above all, by the society or culture into which are born and raised. Many of us, however, when we are old enough, and after we have been exposed to sufficient rationalist education and freedom, recognise that belief in a supernatural god and the claims of religion do not make sense and we abandon them and return to our "atheist" roots. Some people (mostly the less well-educated) maintain their religious beliefs into adulthood and throughout their lives; others even change to a different, but equally irrational set of beliefs about "God".

"Atheism" is also a natural consequence of being a rationalist. Attacks by religious believers upon "atheism" are therefore de facto attacks on rationalism. Thus it perplexes and dismays me when former rationalists such as McGrath abandon rationalism and become "converted" to believe in ancient and medieval religious superstition.

McGrath should have persevered with his biochemistry. To have got to Oxford he is without doubt highly intelligent, and had he stayed in science, he might have contributed something of tangible, practical benefit to the human race. Unfortunately he has squandered his intellect by voluntarily dumbing himself down and choosing to practise as a witch-doctor for Christianity.

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47. Comment #243625 by iPerson on September 6, 2008 at 1:06 pm

So far I've only read a few pages on this book and have found it to be the Theological version of Darwin's Black Box. When I'm done with it I will write an essay discussing it's errors, but don't expect it too soon, I have better things to read (The Origin of Species, The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker).

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