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Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document Losing Our Religion

by Jerry Adler / Newsweek

Reposted from:
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/15653706/site/newsweek/

A gathering of scientists and atheists explores whether faith in science can ever substitute for belief in God.

The great Danish physicist Niels Bohr, it is said, had a good-luck horseshoe hanging in his office. "You don't believe in that nonsense, do you?" a visitor once asked, to which Bohr replied, "No, but they say it works whether you believe in it or not."

If one thing emerged from the "Beyond Belief" conference at the Salk Institute in LaJolla, Calif. it's that religion doesn't work the same way. Some 30 scientists—one of the greatest collections of religious skeptics ever assembled in one place since Voltaire dined alone—examined faith from the evolutionary, neurological and philosophical points of view, and they concluded that some things only work if you do believe in them. Richard Dawkins, the British evolutionary biologist and author of the best-selling book "The God Delusion," said he couldn't have a spiritual experience even when he tried. After another panelist, neuroscientist V.S. Ramachandran of the University of California, San Diego, explained that temporal-lobe seizures of the brain create profound spiritual and out-of-body experiences, Dawkins disclosed that he had participated in an experiment that was supposed to mimic such seizures—and even then he didn't feel a thing.

Dawkins obviously feels this loss is a small price to pay for freedom from superstition. But even physicist Steven Weinberg, a Nobel laureate and an outspoken atheist, acknowledged that science is a poor substitute for the role religion plays in most peoples' lives. It's hard, he said, to live in a world in which one's highest emotions can be understood in biochemical and evolutionary terms, rather than a gift from God. Instead of the big, comforting certainties promoted by religion, science can offer only "a lot of little truths" and the austere pleasures of intellectual honesty. Much as Weinberg would like to see civilization emerge from the tyranny of religion, when it happens, "I think we will miss it, like a crazy old aunt who tells lies and causes us all kinds of trouble, but was beautiful once and was with us a long time."

To which Dawkins retorted, "I won't miss her at all." Only in the most extreme circumstances would he deign to take account of the consolations offered by religion. He would not, for instance, try to talk a Christian on his deathbed out of a belief in Heaven. He didn't say what he would do if he were the one near death, but it's unlikely he would be calling for a priest. The atheist philosopher Daniel Dennett had been expected to attend, but two weeks earlier had been rushed to the hospital with a near-fatal aortic rupture. At the conference, people handed around copies of Dennett's essay entitled "Thank Goodness," (read the essay here) posted on the science Web site Edge.org, in which he described how annoying it was to hear from friends that they had been praying for his recovery. "I have resisted the temptation," he wrote, "to respond, 'Thanks, I appreciate it, but did you also sacrifice a goat?'"

It's hard to be a skeptic, that much was clear from the conference. Hard for the astrophysicist Neil deGrasse Tyson, director of the Hayden Planetarium in New York, who described trying to offer up thanks "to the scientists who made this abundance of food possible" at a friend's Thanksgiving dinner, only to be shouted down by demands for a proper grace. Hard for atheist author Sam Harris ("Letter to a Christian Nation") who likes to point out that people today believe in God based on no more evidence than the ancients had for believing in Zeus or Poseidon—with the result that in addition to all the mail he gets from Christians, he's now getting angry letters from pagans who claim he's insulted their beliefs, as well.

The moderate position at the conference was represented by physicist Lawrence Krauss, who took the view that "science doesn't make it impossible to believe in God, it just makes it possible to not believe in God." The majority view was best articulated by Tyson, who said that atheism is not just the only intellectually coherent position, but a positive boon to humanity. He makes much of the statistic that only 15 percent of the scientific elite in the United States, defined as members of the National Academy of Sciences, express belief in a personal God who takes an active role in the world. That's approximately the mirror image of the population as a whole—but to Tyson, the mystery is that the number of believers among the scientist group isn't zero.

Tyson is a commanding public speaker, which is why his fellow astronomer Carolyn Porco, the head of the imaging team for the Cassini space probe to Saturn, nominated him at the conference to be the first minister of her proposed (although not very seriously) "Church of Science." She thinks science is a perfectly adequate substitute for religion. "Being a scientist and staring immensity and eternity in the face every day is as grand and inspiring as it gets," she says. "No religion offers anything comparable." To the promise of immortality, she counters with the proposition that all the atoms of our bodies will be blown into space in the disintegration of the solar system, to live on forever as mass or energy. That's what we should be teaching our children, not fairy tales about angels and seeing grandma in Heaven. "If anyone has something to replace God," she says, "I think scientists do." Of course, it's not clear that anyone else is looking for one.

© 2006 Newsweek, Inc.

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1. Comment #5737 by Cineaste on November 10, 2006 at 6:22 pm

I don't know. I think the article poses a valid question. Can science substitute for a belief in God? I guess the author means, can science replace the comfort, the bliss, one gets from ignorance. I don't think it can; for science is exactly the opposite of ignorance. When Steven Weinberg said, "It's hard to live in a world in which one's highest emotions can be understood in biochemical and evolutionary terms" I believe he is saying that it's hard to live with the burden of truth. It's easier and more comforting for people to live in ignorance. Sorry for being trite.

2. Comment #5756 by Ryan on November 10, 2006 at 8:17 pm

Hey, Did anyone see that Carl Sagan is having a book about "God" published post-mortem, its called: The Varieties of Scientific Experience: A Personal View of the Search for God

3. Comment #5774 by Aussie on November 11, 2006 at 2:45 am

Science will never be able to match the ultimate comfort that religion offers - the promise of eternal life.

It is, and will always be, a no contest.

4. Comment #5776 by RascoHeldall on November 11, 2006 at 2:51 am

Science is more comforting than religion could ever be. Having an inkling of why we're here that we can be confident is at least a step in the right direction of the truth, rather than a made-up stab in the dark, is such a liberating feeling, and it saddens me that the majority of the population just don't know enough evolutionary science to be able to put two and two together. IF ONLY biological sciences were taught properly in schools (i.e. from an evolutionary perspective) then perhaps fewer people would grow up trying desperately to believe in a fairytale because they don't think there is any alternative explanation for their lives.

5. Comment #5788 by David on November 11, 2006 at 4:12 am

From Mikel: "I would bet that children raised by atheist parents would not find religion nearly comforting enough to ignore science - perhaps our propensity to take comfort in the meme-complex of religion is, itself, a meme-complex."

As a child raised by religion-neutral parents (they are atheists, but never really mentioned religion to me, and let me 'figure it out' for myself), I found wonder and inspiration from an early age in documentaries and books. David Attenborough was my childhood hero, and I constantly marveled at both the amazing complexity of the world and how it might have come to be. I had religious grandparents and in my occasional visits to Church, I embarrassed them at sunday school by asking "Why?" too often. I have never seen a satisfactory comfort or sufficient explanation to consider believing it.

Interestingly, my cousin was also raised by religion-neutral parents, but was sent to a Christian school where one teacher had a particularly profound effect on his views, and he became a Christian. We have been close friends while studying Science degrees, and after some strong debates over the merits of science as opposed to (at first) creationism and then later, religious beliefs at all, he's effectively lost his 'faith'. He still professes to believe in something 'up there', but I think that will wane; I don't know.

His brother, who went to the same school, but did not study science (and was not forced to debate and justify his religion against an outspoken atheist) is still a Christian who doesn't believe in Evolution as an explanatory force (he admits that he doesn't know it very well).

From my comparison of the upbringing of myself and my cousins, I feel that, with the absence of indoctrination or a strong influence of religion, I found it easy to have a sense of wonder and awe in science and nature. For my cousins, the childhood influence dulled this and replaced it with Christianity, and while it was re-instated through (cajoled) rational thought and a better understanding of science through tertiary education in one, it was not for the other.

In my case, I've never found any kind of emptiness or 'gap' in my emotions or conciousness that could be attributed to 'lack of God' or some other imaginary power. It makes it difficult for me to empathise with those who claim to have a personal relationship with a diety; I simply can't grasp what they're on about.

6. Comment #5790 by Roy on November 11, 2006 at 4:18 am

Joad:-
"If we thank god for our food, rather than thanking the farmer who grew it, we risk insulting the farmer into no longer bothering to grow food. After all, his efforts didn't produce the food. It appeared magically, independant of his efforts".
That reminds me of a lovely story about a vicar ( priest) watching an old man working in his very beautiful garden "Do you know? " said the vicar, meekly "You and God have made a wonderful job of this garden!"
"Aye" replied the gardener, giving the vicar a cold hard stare, "But you should have seen it when God had it to himself!"

7. Comment #5796 by writerdd on November 11, 2006 at 5:34 am

You certainly can have a religious experience as a nonbeliever. I can do it voluntarily whenever I like and I also still have these experiences at various times while in nature, listening to music, and so forth. Perhaps it is because I was a believer when I was younger, so I know what a religious experience feels like. Dawkins, on the other hand, has never had a "genuine" religious experience (that is, one as a believer), therefore he has nothing to compare. He probably has such experiences and just does not recognize them for what they are. I believe they are part in parcel of the human experience.

8. Comment #5806 by Youssef51 on November 11, 2006 at 6:59 am

"And finally of course there is no contest - empirical rationalism wins every time. If it didn't we wouldn't use it to run our legal system, our healthcare system etc. etc."

In fact, we'd have no technology, either. Stone tools presuppose empiricism.

As to the comfort factor, science could replace religion in people's minds and to very similar calming affect. But that's like saying that your herbal nose spray is going to totally wipe out the common cold. It's a real longshot because rhinoviruses have been around for a long time and won't give up without a tremendous fight.

9. Comment #5833 by Anonymous on November 11, 2006 at 10:20 am

Religion should have the same standards as other products marketed to the public. Please prove that eternal life is the after death experience.

Dawkins may live forever as Einstein and Galileo hopefully will too existing as significant intellects within the context of the history of this species.

10. Comment #5985 by seals on November 12, 2006 at 5:03 am

What about sitting on the fence? We simply dont know the answer to why the universe(s) is here, it's the void at the heart of everything. If anyone claims to know the truth, beware, they are only making it up ... this includes atheists when they claim no need for a god, it's all done by climbing mount improbable, to find the ultimate boeing 747, (not to imply all that is wrong you'll be glad to hear, just that it still doesnt explain everything), as well as of course the mumbo jumbo we find in religion ... science for sure makes our lives easier at a practical level - although even that has some conditions - but in my opinion, doesnt explain "the eternal question" anymore than religion does. Science has made the puzzle all the more apparent... sorry, maybe i'm stating the obvious!

11. Comment #6022 by Russ on November 12, 2006 at 8:33 am

I'm not sitting on the fence anymore. I've started my own blog "Complete Materialist" at www.completematerialist.blogspot.com. I write letters to the editor as often as I can but letters are limited to 150 words, so ideas cannot really be developed. So few words can barely state a concern much less allow it to be thoughtfully addressed.

Stop by Complete Materialist and share some of your ideas. Let's broaden this valuable public discourse.

Thanks,

Russ

12. Comment #6180 by Anonymous on November 13, 2006 at 2:30 am

"But I think it would be better to draw the distinction here that it is the institution of religion that is responsible for this harm as opposed to the personal belief in something greater than ourselves."


I take it you haven't read 'The God Delusion'.

The point made in the book is that the source of the harm is the view of faith as a 'virtue', i.e. that believing in something with no evidence, or even better, believing in something in spite of contradictory evidence, is somehow a good thing. The only reason religious instututions are able to do the harm they do is that their followers believe that it is wrong to question that harm.

13. Comment #6290 by Stever on November 13, 2006 at 1:50 pm

Joe Killian: You wrote: "But I dare say that there is no scientific way to disprove the theory that the supernatural exists. You may use some sort of mathematical gibberish to calculate the "odds" against such things but the reality is that people of the world believe in some form of "God" by the overwhelming majority."

1. You're right; there is no way to disprove the existence of a supernatural god, just like there's no way to disprove there is a flying spaghetti monster orbiting Earth. However, surely even you require hard evidence before you viscerally believe in such propositions?

2. Probability is not mathematical gibberish. In any case, I'm not aware that anyone has calculated any odds for existence of god? All Dawkins is saying that he is not 100% certain god does not exist, but based on current scientific evidence, the probability that god exists is surely very low. Now, that's not a mathematical statement, nor is it gibberish.

3. Truth is NOT determined by the numbers of people who believe/don't believe in a certain proposition.

I recommend you read 'The God Delusion'. The above points and many more are eloquently addressed by Dawkins. In fact, Dawkins' purpose is to help those just like you who are "in the grey area between religious belief and non-belief". Good luck, and trust your rational instincts.

14. Comment #6314 by seals on November 13, 2006 at 3:27 pm

"If we actually held human life as sacred, religion would not dare abuse it."

To an atheist, literally nothing is sacred, because sacred means connected with god(s) or dedicated to a religious purpose and so deserving veneration. So we would be invoking god or religion to save us from religion.

Isn't it arrogant to rule out something greater than ourselves, whilst we don't know everything there is to know - ( hmm who was that guy who said everything had been discovered?) - but surely it's possible to acknowledge this without religion.

15. Comment #6363 by Jonathan Dore on November 13, 2006 at 10:46 pm

Joe Killian writes: "I must (reluctantly) admit that human beings religious belief is the foundation of all of our culture, art, education and even science! It is the evolution of religion along with the human species mind that has brought us all to the here and now." --- I note that no one has disputed this part of my comment!"

Hi Joe
Perhaps people are just getting weary of knowing where to begin with such a sweeping claim, but if no-one else has the energy, I'll step up to the plate and have a go. First off, what is your evidence? Have you evaluated *all* the culture, art, education, and science of the human species and detected the unmistakable imprint of "religion" running through it, or inspiring it? If you think you have, I suspect that you are using "religion" in such an attenuated sense -- standing in, perhaps, for any and all forms of abstract thought, aspiration, moral sense, and aesthetic sensibility -- that the word effectively has no meaning at all. In that sense, getting a mortgage and going on holiday are "religious" activities.

If, on the other hand, you want to use the word in a more useful way, to actually indicate some identifiable attitude or approach to life, then I think your assertion is clearly false. Even in the sense that most people through history who have engaged in cultural, artistic, educational, or scientific pursuits have been, to some extent, "religious" believers, why do you assume that the religious aspect of their lives is the defining characteristic responsible for producing the activity? Many artists in all disciplines, for instance, have worked within conventionally religious forms, but isn't it obvious that if they had emerged in a non-religious society they would simply have worked in other forms? It's a fascination with sound, words, and paint that makes great composers, poets and painters, not a fascination with religion. As for scientists, the idea of free enquiry that arose at the renaissance came about mainly because of the rediscovery of ancient Greek texts that represented a tradition that was hijacked and shut down by the religious (Justinian closed down Plato's Academy in 529), and upon the revival of learning a thousand years later, the same forces were still trying to stifle it -- the Catholic church's suppression of Galileo by threat of torture is an episode that will live in infamy for as long as humans draw breath. Every step of the way since then on the long road of human discovery has been achieved in spite of the organized power of religion. Where religion saw no threat from science, it tolerated it; where it perceived a threat, it opposed it resolutely. Not much evidence of it being the "foundation" of science, except in the sense that a child abuser's actions are the "foundation" of his victims' will to resist him. You might think it a little rich for the abuser to claim credit for the child's resulting strength of character; I know I do.

So is your statement simply another way of saying that most people so far in history have been religious? But this is simply an observation of the same kind as saying that most people in human history have never made a phone call, travelled at 500 miles an hour, or seen a movie. All perfectly true, but so what? The validity and reality of telecommunications, jet engines, and cinematic projection is not thereby compromised one iota. The possibility of a fully conscious, fully acknowledged atheism is something that has only been possible in human societies in the last 150 years -- in other words, since the publication of the Origin of Species gave an explanation of the origin and development of life, thereby removing the last obstacle that had given deists such as Voltaire and Jefferson a default reason to believe in a god (i.e. to explain the origin of life) even when they could think of no other reason.

So, rather than being the "foundation" of culture, art, education and society, I would say it's fairly obvious that religion is simply coeval with them. Not the parent, but the sibling -- and the rather malevolent runt of the litter at that.

16. Comment #6470 by seals on November 14, 2006 at 12:38 pm

"I have no idea what you really mean by 'something greater than ourselves'. Do you mean heavier, or taller? If so, then the elephant is certainly greater."

You guessed it - I was thinking of elephants! no no no... poor choice of words there, end of a long day...

Re: sacred - sorry! i just think its important not to use the same phrases used for religious ideas because it hides how radical atheism really is. i don't want to slip into a way of thinking that is self deception. I mean, it's not exactly a cosy idea. Really it seems beyond the pale to me, to jump to conclusions when there is so much unknown even in the realm of science - more than we can guess. Correct me if I'm wrong, but we can't cure the common cold, or AIDS, and we dont know what consciousness is (is that the realm of science?) I can't remember my dreams but I know that I dream...

So nobody has heard of that daft guy who sometime in the 19th or early 20th century i think, announced that humanity had discovered everything worth knowing.

17. Comment #6569 by Jonathan Dore on November 15, 2006 at 12:27 am

Hi Joe (comment 35)

"misguided but clever", eh? Somehow I have a feeling the second adjective is meant to be as insulting as the first. A shame.

"There is no doubt that religion in some form preceeded science. From the clap of thunder that was Thors hammer, the bolts of lightening cast by Zues the role of religion "explained" the natural wonders to primitive man."

Precisely -- so from the very beginning "science" (if we are giving that term to any kind of naturalistic understanding of the world) was a project of encroaching on territory that had formerly been the preserve of "religion". From the world of our ancestors, in which virtually every observable process outside the human body (and plenty within it) was potentially subject to a numinous explanation, naturalistic understandings have relentlessly pushed back the frontiers of ignorance. I regard that multi-millennia struggle as being among the noblest of human achievements, and it's sad to see anyone regretting a loss of ignorance, which is what you seem to be doing by saying "These myths you despise so much have been telling us who and what we are for longer than the last 150 years (the time science has expanded nearly incomprehensibly)". Actually, I don't despise the myths; I just think their time of usefulness has come to an end. But I'm more intrigued as to why you think just having been around for a long time is a recommendation. Smallpox had been happily disfiguring people for millennia until some upstart in Gloucestershire decided to try to do something about it a couple of centuries ago. Should I regret the demise of smallpox?

"The Tao of Physics" made some rather weak parallels between certain expressions in eastern religions and certain propositions in quantum mechanics, but without providing a convincing analysis that they are actually talking about the same thing -- or even anything close. Likening the Heart Sutra's pronouncement that "form is emptiness, emptiness is form" to the theory of relativity is about as meaningful as likening it to a Tom and Jerry cartoon, and Capra's scepticism about quarks is, thanks to Fermilab, now badly out of date. Sorry Joe, but you won't get anything except, perhaps, artistic satisfaction from trying to make mysticism relevant to particle physics. For actual, real gains in understanding, I'll take my physics neat, thanks.

18. Comment #6612 by John Phillips on November 15, 2006 at 5:26 am

"These myths you despise so much have been telling us who and what we are for longer than the last 150 years (the time science has expanded nearly incomprehensibly)".


And however well meant as an attempt to explain our universe in the lack of knowledge, incorrectly so for all that time. While science on the other hand, has at last given us a genuine understanding of our universe, albeit incomplete as yet. A myth's longevity has no relation to it's veracity, quite the opposite more often than not. All a myth's longevity often bestows is the difficulty in persuading people to dispose of it when it has passed the sell by date.
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