What Binti Jua Knew2. Comment #235660 by mordacious1 on August 23, 2008 at 11:16 am
Binti Jua was quoted as saying, "Would you people please watch your kids more carefully? I'm trying to set a good example here".3. Comment #235711 by NewEnglandBob on August 23, 2008 at 12:24 pm
4. Comment #235715 by kkelly on August 23, 2008 at 12:30 pm
5. Comment #235723 by Cartomancer on August 23, 2008 at 12:40 pm
6. Comment #235731 by petrucio on August 23, 2008 at 12:53 pm
Not only is it completely wrong to say they are irrational and amoral, but taking it a step further, even amongst freethinkers, almost everyone I know of seems to take as granted that humans are the only self-conscious/self-aware species.7. Comment #235756 by posiedon on August 23, 2008 at 1:51 pm
Cartomancer.
Is cruelty to animals a lucrative business in Spain?
8. Comment #235757 by beeline on August 23, 2008 at 1:55 pm
9. Comment #235765 by J Mac on August 23, 2008 at 2:06 pm
10. Comment #235768 by Duff on August 23, 2008 at 2:09 pm
The issue is that if they are given "rights", it will be more difficult to experiment on them. Not as simple a question as it appears on the surface. There are two competing spheres at work here: science and humanity. Care to choose a side?11. Comment #235775 by beeline on August 23, 2008 at 2:24 pm
True, but far fewer gorillas will kill a man without sufficient cause while men kill men with virtually no reason at all.
12. Comment #235776 by robotaholic on August 23, 2008 at 2:24 pm
14. Comment #235778 by J Mac on August 23, 2008 at 2:29 pm
15. Comment #235782 by Lemniscate on August 23, 2008 at 2:40 pm
16. Comment #235799 by SilentMike on August 23, 2008 at 3:06 pm
If an ape who saves a baby is moral and worthy of praise, is an ape who kills a baby worthy of scorn? Would you put ape killers and ape rapists (of other apes) in ape jail? If an animal is not amoral then it should be seen as potentially immoral. Chimps can be quite nasty. They use violence to get their way, kill each other, and have been known to practice cannibalism. We're talking about full human rights here, and not just some limited version of so called "animal rights". If a chimpanzee has human rights then his tormentor, whether human or a fellow chimpanzee, should be held accountable. It seems to me that there is no avoiding the fact that this coin has two sides.17. Comment #235806 by J Mac on August 23, 2008 at 3:25 pm
18. Comment #235808 by Diacanu on August 23, 2008 at 3:31 pm
Would you put ape killers and ape rapists (of other apes) in ape jail?
19. Comment #235809 by hawt4dawk on August 23, 2008 at 3:31 pm
We demand the extension of the community of equals to include all great apes: human beings, chimpanzees, bonobos, gorillas and orang-utans.
The community of equals is the moral community within which we accept certain basic moral principles or rights as governing our relations with each other and enforceable at law. Among these principles or rights are the following:
1. The Right to Life
The lives of members of the community of equals are to be protected. Members of the community of equals may not be killed except in very strictly defined circumstances, for example, self-defense.
2. The Protection of Individual Liberty
Members of the community of equals are not to be arbitrarily deprived of their liberty; if they should be imprisoned without due legal process, they have the right to immediate release. The detention of those who havenot been convicted of any crime, or of those who are not criminally liable, should be allowed only where it can be shown to be for their own good, or necessary to protect the public from a member of the community who wouldclearly be a danger to others if at liberty. In such cases, members of the community of equals must have the right to appeal, either directly or, if they lack the relevant capacity, through an advocate, to a judicial tribunal.
3. The Prohibition of Torture
The deliberate infliction of severe pain on a member of the community of equals, either wantonly or for an alleged benefit to others, is regarded as torture, and is wrong.
20. Comment #235813 by SilentMike on August 23, 2008 at 3:44 pm
17. Comment #235806 by J MacThe same can be said of humans.
...justified killing
21. Comment #235814 by Border Collie on August 23, 2008 at 3:47 pm
How many of you saw Children of Men? How did you feel when there were no children in the world? How would you feel if there were no chimps, no tigers, no gorillas, no elephants? The answer lies in there.22. Comment #235815 by J Mac on August 23, 2008 at 3:52 pm
23. Comment #235816 by hawt4dawk on August 23, 2008 at 3:55 pm
24. Comment #235817 by J Mac on August 23, 2008 at 3:58 pm
25. Comment #235818 by hawt4dawk on August 23, 2008 at 4:00 pm
26. Comment #235823 by Ishruul on August 23, 2008 at 4:35 pm
27. Comment #235830 by Ishruul on August 23, 2008 at 5:09 pm
28. Comment #235839 by A on August 23, 2008 at 6:22 pm
I have heard this story innumerable times and it often irks me that we only ever hear one side of the story.29. Comment #235841 by Nova on August 23, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Comment 6 petrucio,address rights without also addressing responsibilitiesHow silly, name the responsibilities of a human baby, I can name the rights.
30. Comment #235842 by NewEnglandBob on August 23, 2008 at 7:00 pm
...name the responsibilities of a human baby...
31. Comment #235844 by jshuey on August 23, 2008 at 7:46 pm
32. Comment #235846 by kraut on August 23, 2008 at 7:48 pm
The request to extend "HUMAN" rights to non species relatives is utter nonsense and is illogical that any discussion about this here lets me question the sanity of its proponents.33. Comment #235848 by kkelly on August 23, 2008 at 8:02 pm
34. Comment #235852 by thewhitepearl on August 23, 2008 at 8:51 pm

some with poundage and power exceeding that of an adult man
35. Comment #235853 by kraut on August 23, 2008 at 8:53 pm
It is not semantics, it is logic.36. Comment #235859 by kkelly on August 23, 2008 at 9:10 pm
37. Comment #235871 by shaunfletcher on August 23, 2008 at 9:23 pm
38. Comment #235876 by kraut on August 23, 2008 at 9:36 pm
"You're clearly insane."39. Comment #235882 by kkelly on August 23, 2008 at 9:43 pm
40. Comment #235887 by chewedbarber on August 23, 2008 at 9:52 pm
41. Comment #235892 by kraut on August 23, 2008 at 10:04 pm
"You must be trying really hard to not understand"42. Comment #235897 by kkelly on August 23, 2008 at 10:10 pm
I have absolutely no problems with creating laws and a mechnism to enforce them to protect primates
43. Comment #235948 by Apeseed on August 24, 2008 at 12:50 am
Perhaps we need to start taking account of the new perspective on life that evolutionary theory gives us.44. Comment #235966 by hawt4dawk on August 24, 2008 at 1:17 am
Has it occured to you, ... the "liberal" midstream animal rights activists proclaiming the nonsense of "human rights" for animals are nothing but helpmates to the animal right terrorists?
This "animal rights" romanticism is for me on the same level as the spiritual nonsense spouted by the new agers of all kinds, dowsers, homeopaths, pyramid power, etc.
And I thought this was a sceptical website. I was mistaken, having to take in such utter bullshit.
I have absolutely no problems with creating laws and a mechnism to enforce them to protect primates
45. Comment #235977 by Apeseed on August 24, 2008 at 1:29 am
I can't see the logic that someone who holds a moderate stance along the spectrum of opinions somehow supports another of more extreme opinion. Isn't this just a version of the Slippery Slope fallacy?46. Comment #235998 by JackHandsome on August 24, 2008 at 2:37 am
A penny for your thoughts, Binti Jua.47. Comment #236002 by SilentMike on August 24, 2008 at 2:47 am
I'm sorry but I don't think my questions have been addressed. I understand many people here don't think that treating our fellow apes as moral creatures does not entail moral responsibility, but I haven't seen any explanations as to why that is so.If you can show me the animal correlate of homicide I'd be awfully impressed. It just doesn't happen.
Many apes already live "in jail" and they haven't done anything.
The main thing right now is that these creatures are endangered in the wild and getting governmental support to create and enforce protective laws is critical to their species survival -- typical animal rights laws are quite inadequate or they wouldn't still be endangered.
48. Comment #236009 by thewhitepearl on August 24, 2008 at 2:59 am

Welcome back, TWP. Hope it was a good road trip. :) See anything cool?
49. Comment #236019 by DrCogSci on August 24, 2008 at 3:27 am
Among the rights that would be dispensed is the right to life, this seems to be very important in moderating human/ape interaction, but in ape/ape interaction this is50. Comment #236025 by SilentMike on August 24, 2008 at 3:42 am
50. Comment #236019 by DrCogSci
1. Comment #235657 by debacles on August 23, 2008 at 11:11 am
I couldn't agree more. It's a sad story we'll never truly know.
Other Comments by debacles