1. Comment #236489 by maton100 on August 24, 2008 at 5:34 pm

Kudos to the prof.

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2. Comment #236497 by radiohead on August 24, 2008 at 5:47 pm

Thanks Richard.

We so badly need more Religious criticism in Northern Ireland and the raising of consciousness in peoples minds in regards evolution. I come from Northern Ireland though it's a better country now than it was, its still racked with hatred and delusion. There is a high prevalence of evangelical protestants who are every bit as fundamentalist as their American counterparts. Iris Robinson the First Minsters wife and a MP called Homosexuality worse than child molestation and--yes you guessed it an abomination.

I wrote the woman and my local newspapers a letter of complaint. The local newspaper (the Newtownards Chronicle) never even covered the story back in June. (it did print a letter of complaint from another Christian! And one that worked for the DUP! and its gets better simply said that Robisnon should not say those things in public!)

This woman along with many of her DUP chums are a disgrace to the country. Just to show I'm being even handed (as you do to be "politically correct") the Catholics and the Protestants have joined forces on the one thing they can agree on taking control of women's bodies Northern Ireland is the only part of the UK that does not offer abortions to women. If anyone's interested I have a blog article about Robinson which goes further into detail of what I wrote her.
http://theyoungcontrarian.blogspot.com/2008/06/predictability-of-stupidity-religion.html


In any case can I just say that I wish I had of really learned about evolution in school and what it means for human nature. To me Science was boring and biology was irrelevant. evolution is hardly taught at all. After reading Richard TGD, I read Unweaving the Rainbow, Pinkers the blank slate and Diamond's Guns Germs and Steel. These books are magnificent and science is not only relevant and useful but bloody fascinating. If only these sorts of things would be taught in school.

Richard I hope you will go on to support better science education in UK schools starting with Evolution and natural selection and what it means for understanding human behaviour.


Best and be well

Michael Faulkner.

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3. Comment #236529 by rydrum2112 on August 24, 2008 at 6:37 pm

The second link doesn't have Dawkins both parts are in the first one.

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4. Comment #236543 by NewEnglandBob on August 24, 2008 at 7:07 pm

A good job by Prof. Dawkins and a good job by the radio host who was fair, knowledgeable and moved things along.

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5. Comment #236554 by mmarchisin on August 24, 2008 at 7:21 pm

Always a pleasure, and a privilege, to listen to Professor Dawkins. Thanks for posting these radio segments.

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6. Comment #236557 by wouldbesakota on August 24, 2008 at 7:30 pm

I'm glad he puts up with these airings. It not only gives a chance to shoot down some creationists, but also demonstrates the virtue of patience of the professor. Yays for Richard!

People keep calling up to put forth the same creationist arguments over and over- it's really quite pathetic, because they don't actually research the arguments that clearly shoot down their ridiculous fronts. They just repeat each other and regurgitate creationist pamphlets.

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7. Comment #236579 by MikedubB on August 24, 2008 at 8:31 pm

I thought the Doc did well. The callers are another story. It's like the screeners were intentionally choosing the lowest, most common denominators. I wish I could interview the man. I read 'The Ancestors Tale' a while back and, despite its breadth, was actually left with more questions than answers. (in a good way) Like a true genius, he raised my consciousness, inalterably, forever.

Peace

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8. Comment #236582 by Spinoza on August 24, 2008 at 8:32 pm

The logic is just really painful.

Critical Thinking needs to be taught in kindergarten.

For christ's sake... Jupiter DOES NOT shield the Earth... I mean what the hell... and what on earth does THAT, if it were true, have to do with "there must be a designer"... That's just confirmation bias.

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9. Comment #236593 by HourglassMemory on August 24, 2008 at 9:04 pm

"Right? Right? Right? Right?"
I can so understand Dawkins if he ever rolled his eyes.
I bet he could see the argument coming from very far, as most here would.

I actually do wonder where people's insatiable curiosity to KNOW THINGS has gone...
I can't imagine a human mind without wanting to try to dig out truths from the world around them. To look hard and think hard and "dig" hard and think even more.
I just find that so exciting! To have this tremendous opportunity of being able, in a way, to understand the world around us, and yet... people waste it with "There are flowers, therefore there must be a designer."
How can anyone actually sit down with that in mind and go on with drinking their tea or something?
I'd be follwing the bees that carried the polen particles and try to figure the whole thing out.
Do people actually care about FIGURING THINGS OUT anymore?

Why is so much importance given to ancient thought-experiments?
I think it was Dumas who said "How is it that little children are so intelligent and men so stupid? It must be education that does it."
And I think he is spot on. When those who educate you have not received an enlightened instruction on how the world works, and on how to think, you're going to remain with a very immature and malformed and undisciplined way of thinking about the world.

There's something "wrong" with schools. I even start wondering if schools serve to EDUCATE people or to SCHOOL them.
Because it's very different, like Mark Twain said: "I've never let my school interfere with my education."
There's a difference there that I think people let pass, or take for granted, and think one means the other.

I won't even start on this whole Education/School issue, but I don't think it's a coincidence when you start seeing a pattern of the world's most influential minds having problems with traditional schooling or schooling, period.

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10. Comment #236596 by Don_Quix on August 24, 2008 at 9:13 pm

Spinoza:

For christ's sake... Jupiter DOES NOT shield the Earth... I mean what the hell... and what on earth does THAT, if it were true, have to do with "there must be a designer"... That's just confirmation bias.

I beg to differ. Not only does Jupiter shield us from evil and destruction, but He is the supreme arbiter of laws and social order! Why, without Jupiter, there would be no morality or ethics...it would be total chaos!

Oh wait...err...wait...

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11. Comment #236601 by HourglassMemory on August 24, 2008 at 9:23 pm

It is Zeus, not Jupiter!!! Zeus is older, therefore holds more truth and needs to be considered for a longer time.

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12. Comment #236602 by robotaholic on August 24, 2008 at 9:25 pm

It is a commonly held belief that Jupiter shields Earth from comets or asteroids that might otherwise hit us.

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13. Comment #236603 by Don_Quix on August 24, 2008 at 9:28 pm

It is Zeus, not Jupiter!!!

Better not say that around any Centurions!

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14. Comment #236618 by tuskensp on August 24, 2008 at 10:04 pm

I would just like to say that, having been raised to be a devoted christian, I can understand how it is that many people don't realize they are making the same futile arguments over and over again. Giving up the hope for life after death and the other supposed benefits religion affords can be a very difficult thing to do, and it doesn't surprise me that many people jump through mental hoops to accommodate this. This is not to say that it makes those beliefs true.

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15. Comment #236621 by Don_Quix on August 24, 2008 at 10:23 pm

Giving up the hope for life after death and the other supposed benefits religion affords can be a very difficult thing to do, and it doesn't surprise me that many people jump through mental hoops to accommodate this. This is not to say that it makes those beliefs true.

There's not anything particularly wrong with hoping for a life after death. It's a natural and very seductive idea, since human beings (as far as we know) are the only creatures on this planet who can, from a very early age, perceive and fear their own future deaths. Nobody who is now alive can say for certain that there is or isn't some part of us that survives natural death...but based on what we know now right now, it's incredibly unlikely. If there is any kind of afterlife, it would almost certainly be totally unlike what the major religions would have you believe it is.

The problem I have with people who believe in religions is that they spend much of life preparing for something which is very, very likely not true. Instead of preparing for "the next world". you should be living your *life* and doing what you can to help future *living* generations after you are gone (whether it be your children, or grandchildren, or humanity in general, or whatever).

Then again, with technology advancing as fast as it is, it is possible that some people who are alive today may become nearly immortal at some point in the not too distant future...but that is a totally different discussion.

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16. Comment #236627 by Robert Maynard on August 24, 2008 at 11:20 pm

Quick skim of Wiki, library of babel for the lazy learner: "Jupiter has been called the Solar System's vacuum cleaner, because of its immense gravity well and location near the inner Solar System. It receives the most frequent comet impacts of the Solar System's planets."

People who note this as evidence of 'design' should also understand that Jupiter is likewise credited with the chaotic coalescence of the asteroid belt and the rocky inner planets, including Earth.

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17. Comment #236628 by Don_Quix on August 24, 2008 at 11:36 pm

People who note this as evidence of 'design' should also understand that Jupiter is likewise credited with the chaotic coalescence of the asteroid belt and the rocky inner planets, including Earth.

But it *is* evidence of design! If Jupiter wasn't gobbling up rocks and influencing gravity in our neighborhood, we wouldn't be here! Therefore Jupiter == God == Designer! Q.E.D.

Just kidding.

It is fortunate we have a large planet like Jupiter with a large gravity well that does (occasionally) take hits for us. However, it sucks when Jupiter is on the other side of the sun from us and doesn't really offer much protection. So much for the clockwork design of the solar system!

Basically we're lucky that our species has happened to evolve and become sentient during a relatively quiet period in both our planet's and our solar system's history. It's very likely (in fact, almost certain) that a major extinction-level asteroid or comet will hit us in the next few million, if not thousand, years. Hopefully between now and then we will have evolved enough to be able to deflect it or to have moved off this planet :)

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18. Comment #236648 by rod-the-farmer on August 25, 2008 at 2:04 am

Too bad we never got to hear more from that one caller who claimed many people who are NOT religious but object to evolution by natural selection. RD asked on what basis they objected, but we never got to hear the response. Just curious.

Edit to add...

Also, too bad RD did not get a chance to mention to that other caller that the moon has slowly been moving away from the earth. Any claim that the tides would be adversely affected if the moon were not at the "perfect" distance would therefore fall flat. Although how you would prove this gradual increase in the distance to someone who seems a bit weak in basic science would be interesting.

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19. Comment #236651 by King of NH on August 25, 2008 at 2:27 am

Listening to these Q&A sessions with Prof. Dawkins, I hear the same questions over and over, the same arguments against evolution.

Perhaps Dawkins should have a Q&A collection, maybe written down somewhere. If Dawkins were to write a few books - like some on evolution, atheism, science - than people could read them before asking old and foolish questions publicly. Not to brag, but I think that's a great idea.

Some titles you can feel free to use, Prof:
The God Illusion
The Great Grandparents' Tale
Science Writing of Today
Growing Up in the Vast Space
The Root of All Bad

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20. Comment #236678 by Vaal on August 25, 2008 at 4:13 am

18. Comment #236648 by rod-the-farmer

Also, too bad RD did not get a chance to mention to that other caller that the moon has slowly been moving away from the earth.

Rod, good point. The caller that rang who said that everything was perfect for life to form on Earth assumed that nothing has changed in Earth's history.

The Moon has not been at the same distance from the Earth for all of geological history. In early Earth history it was much closer (perhaps as little as 1/10 the current distance) causing huge tides, and slowing down the Earth's rotation. Can you imagine seeing the Moon that close and observing those massive tides?

The Earth's rotation 4.5 billion years ago was a little as 6.5 hours a day. 3.5 billion years ago the planet's rotation had slowed to 20 hours per day and even 100 million years ago the rotation period was 23.6 hours. Every year our day gets slightly longer, and the moon moves further away.

We are not just talking about the Moon; the Sun has not been the same in geological history and was actually cooler in our early history. In another 1 1/2 billion years the sun will be producing much more heat and radiation, enough to boil the oceans and extinguish most life on the Earth, except the most hardy bacterium.

Most of Earth's history, our caller would have found that if he had been instantly transported to another geological time, he would have suffocated as there was insufficient oxygen in the atmosphere. If he had been transported back to when the Earth was a giant snowball, with the Earth encased in ice from pole to equator, he would have found that extremely inclement. In fact, there is quite a small segment of the Earth's history which would have been suitable for humanity.

Not to mention other changes, such as the Earth's changes in orbit, changes in axial inclination, continental drift, the massive extinction events etc etc etc

Perhaps Richard should bring this up when presented with these blinkered idiots, who think the world has been is as it now for the whole of history, and "designed" only with humanity in mind.

Other Comments by Vaal

21. Comment #236680 by Tyler Durden on August 25, 2008 at 4:22 am

Whenever the "Argument from Design" rears its ugly head, especially with regard to the Earth, the words "Plate Tectonics" should follow smartly.

If the grand designer did in fact design our planet Earth, he/she/it did a half-ass lazy job of it.

That caller obviously knows nothing about astronomy if he's using the Sun/Moon as his premise. Why would this grand designer give the Sun a limited supply of fuel, which will ultimately result in the demise of our planet?!

As Hitch so often says: "Some design!"

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22. Comment #236681 by decius on August 25, 2008 at 4:30 am

Comment #236680 by Tyler Durden

The moon used to be much closer to Earth, and it's still receding, due to tidal friction, at the rhythm of 4 cm a year.

Ironically, cretinists use this fact as an argument for a young Earth.

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23. Comment #236684 by cryptographix on August 25, 2008 at 4:39 am

Those questions and answers were very fun to listen to.

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24. Comment #236693 by Cokane on August 25, 2008 at 5:10 am

I am not at all surprised by the high level of general ignorance shown by the callers. Having been educated at a quite famous Northern Irish Catholic school, I can say that I was taught almost nothing about evolution in the 5 years that I studied science, and particularly biology. Having learned a little bit about biology since my time at school I am quite amazed when I think back to what I was taught, and more importantly what I was not taught. My memory isn't perfect but my only real recollection of evolution being mentioned at all, was with an almost disapproving passing comment in my religious education class.

I fully accept that I may just have simply forgotten that it was taught, but I doubt it as it was only 10 years ago. I can't imagine the significance of the idea and its over-arching relevance to much of the how the world developed and continues to develop would have passed me by, even at that age.

It would be interesting to discover, from those who have access to the relevant information, just to what extent evolution is supposed to be taught in the high school curriculum in Northern Ireland. And to what extent Catholic funded schools are bound by this curriculum in what they teach, and do not teach.

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25. Comment #236709 by Invisible Talker on August 25, 2008 at 6:22 am

Is it only me, or are most of the callers really unintelligible? They have so strong accents I can't hear what they're saying.

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26. Comment #236714 by Tyler Durden on August 25, 2008 at 6:58 am

Comment #236709 by Invisible Talker

Is it only me, or are most of the callers really unintelligible?

It's just you :)

The Northern Irish accent can be tough to understand if you're not used to hearing it. I'm from Dublin and have trouble with it on occasion.

I'm sure some of the lads here from the North can give you a transcript :)

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27. Comment #236724 by SharonMcT on August 25, 2008 at 7:35 am

Tyler:

PM for you. :)

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28. Comment #236726 by rod-the-farmer on August 25, 2008 at 7:39 am

Re comment #22 by decius

The moon used to be much closer to Earth, and it's still receding, due to tidal friction, at the rhythm of 4 cm a year.

Ironically, cretinists use this fact as an argument for a young Earth.

Interesting. I am not sure I remember seeing the details on how they would use this. Care to explain ? How would you 'prove' to a fundie that the moon was once much closer ? If they accept micro-evolution yet reject macro-evolution, then the mere fact the moon is currently receding would not in their minds prove it had always done so. Conservation of momentum is not always true, apparently.

At 4 cm per year, with a current distance of 385,000 kms, the length of time for it to move appreciably seems to be way outside the 6,000 years. Anyway, I always like revisiting the calculations of the notorious Bishop of Ussher to see how he came to that 6,000 figure. I seem to recall he even pinned the date of creation down to a specific Tuesday evening, in 4004 BC. (Giggle). Combine that with the two different lists of 'begats' in the bible, and the number of years between generations, and IMO the whole things falls apart - not that anyone needs to pay attention to it in any case !

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29. Comment #236729 by bamafreethinker on August 25, 2008 at 7:59 am

Were it not for those outrageous accents (think Holy Grail taunting), I would have sworn that this show was taking place in the bible belt USA! Richard does such a good job with this type of format/call-in questions.

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30. Comment #236731 by decius on August 25, 2008 at 8:10 am

Rod,

I don't remember the details, but the argument is debunked here.

I suspect that inmate Hovind needs to worry about his own moon, as we speak.

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31. Comment #236733 by Dr Doctor on August 25, 2008 at 8:14 am

I was entertained by Richards' handling of the Anthony Flew question.

The atmosphere changed audibly once the name "Anthony Flew" was mentioned. I chuckled myself, and I wondered with Richard was similarly amused.

When the questioner built up to the name Anthony Flew I was trying to think of who he could be talking about....

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32. Comment #236735 by thewhitepearl on August 25, 2008 at 8:19 am

(think Holy Grail taunting),

I wave my private parts at your aunties, you cheesy load of second hand electric donkey bottom biters!

Any way,

I usually enjoy the q&a section but I get incredibly exahausted by it all. Same questions, different callers.

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33. Comment #236741 by Tyler Durden on August 25, 2008 at 8:40 am

Comment #236726 by rod-the-farmer

I always like revisiting the calculations of the notorious Bishop of Ussher to see how he came to that 6,000 figure. I seem to recall he even pinned the date of creation down to a specific Tuesday evening, in 4004 BC. (Giggle).

Yep, funny indeed. Although not in a good way when you see some Christian fundie on TV quoting it like it's true!

Also, Rod, James Ussher, Archbishop of Armagh (1625-1656), gave the date, the time was down to others who came after him:

http://www.tcd.ie/history/Ussher/date.php

Ussher and the date of Creation

Ussher is best known for his work in biblical chronology and, more specifically, for his dating of creation to the 23rd October, 4004BC. Later writers refined his thesis and argued that creation occurred at 6.00pm on the 22nd of October, 4004BC, but Ussher eschews giving specific times. His interest lay not in establishing a specific date but presenting a framework for the history of mankind. By using the Bible and complimentary historical sources he sought to provide an over-arching view of God's intervention in history. For Ussher what lay in the past explained the present and pointed to the future Second Coming of Christ.

I'm working across the road from Trinity College as we "speak" where I gather most of Ussher's work (letters, transcripts etc.) reside. Perhaps I should pay a visit, no laughing though :)

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34. Comment #236743 by Riley on August 25, 2008 at 8:51 am

A few decades ago, this time using the Bible to place a date on the end of creation, instead of a date on the beginning, Hal Lindsey predicted that the Rapture was coming in 1988. His logic? 1988 was one generation (a generation is 40 years according to the Bible) after the creation of the state of Israel.
http://www.religioustolerance.org/end_wrl2.htm



Don_Quix, your avatar is weirding me out.

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35. Comment #236745 by Tyler Durden on August 25, 2008 at 9:08 am

Comment #236743 by Riley

Hal Lindsey predicted that the Rapture was coming in 1988.

Another "prophecy" unfulfilled. Say it ain't so? :)

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36. Comment #236747 by Shane McKee on August 25, 2008 at 9:12 am

Hey! What's outrageous about our accent? (Well, most of the callers were Belfast - the lilting tones of a bit further west are gentler on the ear).

This was a good piece, and Will Crawley is one of BBC Radio Ulster's best interviewers. His "Will and Testament" blog is at http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/ni and frequently deals with the sort of homophobic creationist idiots who infest Northern Irish politics (including in the comments sections).

He also covers a lot of religious affairs, and indeed his latest "Sunday Sequence" show (look it up on BBC iplayer) had an interview with PZ Myers over the Crackergate affair.

I would encourage you all to join in the fun!

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37. Comment #236749 by bamafreethinker on August 25, 2008 at 9:16 am

Here's what I dug up on Usher:

In the closing months of 1997, Usher embarked on a series of tour engagements including a spot on Puffy's No Way Out tour, dates with Mary J. Blige, and the opening spot on Janet Jackson's The Velvet Rope tour. My Way was certified 6x platinum in the United States. Usher received his first Grammy Award nomination as Best Male R&B Vocal Performance for "You Make Me Wanna," which was also nominated for a Soul Train Music Award as 'Best Male R&B/Soul Single.'

Uh... just noticed there's two esses in the bible scholar Ussher... sorry.

"Now, go away you English pig-dogs... before I taunt you a second time!... you kaaaaannnnnniggits!"

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38. Comment #236750 by Vaal on August 25, 2008 at 9:17 am

Tyler

I was in Cornwall in the year 2000 for the eclipse of the sun. The weather was crap and cloud-ridden, as you would expect, but behind me there was a big group of "End of Earthers", who had their banners out and were waiting for the "rapture", as it was the new millennium. Some of them had even sold all their possessions, they were so sure it was the end of humanity.

Anyway, the shadow of the moon rushed towards us at the speed of sound and there was a big whoosh as it went over, with a rapid change in temperature. As it happened, all the rapture crowd cheered with glee. A few minutes later when the sun reappeared, and the shadow of the moon rushed away into the distance, all the rest of us cheered. I have never seen anyone look quite as disheartened as they packed their banners away.

I almost felt sorry for them.

EDIT: I finally got to see an eclipse of the sun in Turkey in 2006. Absolutely awesome. I recommend everybody sees it at least once in their lifetime.

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39. Comment #236755 by Corylus on August 25, 2008 at 9:34 am

Good interview - also I thought the interviewer was very fair and asked intelligent questions.
---

Vaal

I have never seen anyone look quite as disheartened as they packed their banners away.

Sounds a bit like the great disappointment.

They will get over it :-)

They will either give up the idea or; more likely; come up with a new date to pin their hopes upon.

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40. Comment #236757 by geru on August 25, 2008 at 9:38 am

The second part was hilarious, although being totally off topic.

At one point I think this anti-Google person was suggesting that it is not enough that you can request Google to remove pictures from the picture search, if they are somehow harmful to you, but Google should ask permission from everyone (who have some connection to the picture, I guess) in advance, before adding the pictures! Or else someone might be harmed in some way by the pictures.

Or maybe I understood this completely wrong, but the guy really seemed like he desperately needs a thicker tinfoil hat, to keep those Google-bastards from invading his privacy. :)

Anyway, I'm guessing this person doesn't have a very good understanding on how search engines work...

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41. Comment #236765 by geru on August 25, 2008 at 9:50 am

Oh, and about the "Are my ancestors monkeys" question, I guess RD could have mentioned that not only were your ancestors monkeys, YOU are a monkey.

Or maybe this would just lead into a futile taxonomy debate at best. :)

Whenever I hear this monkey-nonsense, I always think of the Hitchhikers Guide bit about digital wristwatches, I guess they truly are the revolutionary step that separate us from other the apes. :)

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42. Comment #236771 by Dhamma on August 25, 2008 at 9:55 am

Richard is again superb. He dealt all of them with some proper substance to his arguments.

As always I'm surprised of the callers lack of understanding. If you're to ask a question to one of the world's most prominent scientist, you better have an original argument. I've heard much worse callers, but they were still pretty bad.

Why the western society hasn't been converted already is quite surprising, but I think childhood indoctrination must be the greatest cause for this.

Richard, continue your crusade in the same pace. You have a huge minority that loves what you're doing.

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43. Comment #236796 by Szymanowski on August 25, 2008 at 10:35 am

geru: monkeys are not apes

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44. Comment #236804 by geru on August 25, 2008 at 10:51 am

Ah, yes. I should have googled first, I knew I was going to get it wrong. :)

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45. Comment #236805 by Thor on August 25, 2008 at 10:59 am

Shane,

I really hope I don't come across as in any way condescending - but the accents, especially the guy at around 19:00 (the name was "Hugh", I believe) are just... adorable :-)

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46. Comment #236808 by Edamus on August 25, 2008 at 11:13 am

Ugh, great interview, but that guy with the "right? right? right?" needed to move on...

It's like they spend all their free time finding nonsensical evidence for their creator. Oh, wait... I think they do. That and prostrate themselves for hours on end...

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47. Comment #236809 by the great teapot on August 25, 2008 at 11:13 am

Is Richard really suggesting we are just apes.
Outrageous
How can anybody look at all those primitive animals with their two eyes, and two hands and two feet and two nostrils and single heart and liver and 5 digits on the end of each limb, and all that crazy hair over their bodies, etc, etc, etc and see a similarity is beyond me.
You might as well say we are related to dogs or mice with their two eyes and two hands and two feet ....
Come on Richard get a grip man.

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48. Comment #236814 by NMcC on August 25, 2008 at 11:28 am

Anticipating both the accents and the questions, I was dreading listening to the recording as I hadn't heard the programme first time around.

And my dread was duely validated. It's difficult to adjudge which was the thickest, the accents or the questioners.

SHANE McKEE

"Will Crawley is one of BBC Radio Ulster's best interviewers."

Absolutely!. There's a great interview he conducted of Professor Dawkins on RD.net somewhere.

GERU

You obviously didn't get the point of the guy's objection to the invasion of privacy for profit that Google is engaged in.

Mind you, I doubt if you would get the point if Google arrived on your doorstep and insisted on putting a camera IN your house.

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49. Comment #236817 by NMcC on August 25, 2008 at 11:36 am

the great teapot

Nice one! LOL. And I'm from Belfast!

Blast, I thought I'd got to change it before anyone noticed. I didn't read over what I'd written before posting. Serves me right for calling my fellow Northern Irish questioners thick.

Other Comments by NMcC

50. Comment #236819 by NMcC on August 25, 2008 at 11:41 am

the great teapot

You should have left your post up, it was quite funny and now mine doesn't make sense. Probably no big loss!

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