Thursday, August 28, 2008 | Reason : Evolution and Biology | print version

Manitoba dig uncovers 80-million-year-old sea creature

by CBC News

Thanks to Brian Burgess for the link.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/08/27/mosasaur.html

Manitoba dig uncovers 80-million-year-old sea creature

Two partially covered teeth attached to a jaw on the fossilized remains of Angus, an 11-metre-long mosasaur unearthed near Morden, Man. (Canadian Fossil Discovery Centre)

A public dig organized by the Canadian Fossil Discovery Centre has turned up the biggest fossil find in Manitoba in nearly 30 years.

The summer dig near the centre in Morden, Man., that is still underway has already unearthed a mosasaur, an 11-metre-long ancient sea creature estimated to be 80 million years old.

"Fossils are rare in general," said centre spokeswoman Anita Janzic. "Normally when people come on a dig, they will find something — but to find a large tylosaur like this, it's pretty rare."

The mosasaur, dubbed Angus, isn't the first to be discovered by the centre; a 13-metre-long specimen given the name Bruce was found in 1974 near Thornhill, Man., just south of where Angus was located. Bruce's fossils and a full-scale reproduction of him are now on display in the centre's museum.

Angus wasn't the only exciting discovery at the centre this summer; the dig also uncovered what Janzic describes as a "death assemblage," a collection of bones from different species, all in the same area.

"That's pretty rare to find them all together," Janzic said. "We've got a tooth from a shark, [more] mosasaur bones, fish bones, at least two different species of fish, plesiosaur bones, as well as some bird bones."

Mosasaurs were air-breathing, scaly skinned, flesh-eating lizards that swam in an inland sea during the Cretaceous Period, between 65 million and 135 million years ago, centre officials said. While they resemble modern alligators, the monitor lizard of Asia and Africa is considered its closest living relative.

They were named after the Meuse River in Europe, near where the first mosasaur discoveries were made.

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1. Comment #238606 by thewhitepearl on August 28, 2008 at 12:08 pm

Bird bones??

[puzzled look]

Odd. I wonder how the bird bones made there way into the death assemblage?

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2. Comment #238609 by Nails on August 28, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Good work folks, keep these fossils coming!!

I can't get enough of them myself; the more we find the more we learn.

If only it had some 'flesh' on it (for protein extraction & analysis).....

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3. Comment #238614 by Keinen_Gott on August 28, 2008 at 12:16 pm

@thewhitepearl

Why would that puzzle you? Apparently the dig site was once covered with water which explains the fish bones. The only way I could see it being a bit puzzling is if all of the animals there died at the same time. Which would be very odd indeed. Unless of course the birds and the fish were eaten by that mosasaur.

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4. Comment #238628 by thewhitepearl on August 28, 2008 at 12:30 pm

Keien,

The bird bones were found together with the fish bones and the dig site was once covered in water.

Why would that not puzzle me?

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5. Comment #238634 by paceetrate on August 28, 2008 at 12:33 pm

Birds can fly over water you know. :P It's not impossible that they were sea birds.

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6. Comment #238635 by DalaiDrivel on August 28, 2008 at 12:34 pm

Prehistoric Earth would be a cool place to explore...

Provided you can avoid being eaten...

Also, I might add, a good place to take a creationist...

In the off chance they could be eaten...

Argh, I know... poor joke.

Or take them there really just to show them, that against their biblical calculations, the world is already there, rife with a complex biosphere, their humanoid ancestors still a long way off in the temporal distance.

When I try and envision this 11-metre long creature slipping through the currents of an ancient sea, I get that uncanny sense of amazement and wonder that contemplating mere egotistical human existence, and history, doesn't seem to provide.

Prehistoric Earth had it all going on... life, you know.

I wonder how the scientists they decided upon "Angus..."

Maybe it was (would have been) the delicacy of its day.

P.S. "Death assemblage" sounds gothic to me... but as long as Janzic didn't speak those words with a low, gravely, morose voice, I think we're alright.

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7. Comment #238640 by Diacanu on August 28, 2008 at 12:36 pm

DalaiDrivel-

Or take them there really just to show them, that against their biblical calculations, the world is already there, rife with a complex biosphere, their humanoid ancestors still a long way off in the temporal distance.

Wouldn't work, they'd just make up more bullshit gaps to shove their awful brat of an imaginary friend into.

Better to just let 'em be eaten.
B-)

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8. Comment #238642 by Keinen_Gott on August 28, 2008 at 12:38 pm

@thewhitepearl

Well, just because they were found in the same area does not mean that they died all at the same time.
I can think of only two explanations.

1. Maybe the birds were eaten by another animal at that time and then "disposed" of.
2. Maybe the birds died a bit later on when the sea was either shallow, or when the sea was dried up completely.

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9. Comment #238649 by thewhitepearl on August 28, 2008 at 12:46 pm

Birds can fly over water you know. :P It's not impossible that they were sea birds.

Oh I know. I'm not implying that this is impossible and I've already conjured up some probable explanations however it was just not something I would have expected.

Like Janzic said it's pretty rare to find them altogether. The bird bones makes it extra rare.

Keinen,

Right.

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10. Comment #238650 by bluebird on August 28, 2008 at 12:47 pm

Way cool...ancient critters from the GreatInland/ WesternInteriorSeaway fascinate me.

If our travels ever take us to Canada, this museum will be near the top of our "must see" places!!
http://www.discoverfossils.com/AboutUs/Location.html

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11. Comment #238652 by InfuriatedSciTeacher on August 28, 2008 at 12:49 pm

Keinen_Gott> Really? only two explanations? Is it not plausible that some sort of sea bird died and its corpse or remains thereof sunk?

As for the dried up completely portion, it is possible but it makes it far less likely that those remains would fossilise.

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12. Comment #238656 by ColdFusionLazarus on August 28, 2008 at 12:50 pm

TWP

Rubbish. Your first point was valid. I knew there was a hole in this theory. Clearly all them animals died 6000 years ago, and the scientists' conspiracy is now revealed.

Diacanu! Now's the time to wade in!

Actually, I've gotta go. Bye for now.

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13. Comment #238663 by Keinen_Gott on August 28, 2008 at 1:00 pm

@InfuriatedSciTeacher

Yes, you are completely right. I just woke up about half an hour ago. And I did not say that they were the only two explanations, just the only 2 that came to my mind. Also, when I said dried up I wasn't picturing a desert. I was picturing some plants, animals, and a few ponds or so. Once more, just woke up. Haven't even had any caffeine yet. :(
Also, sorry for being so apologetic. I just felt a little stupid after realizing what I did write. I was hoping nobody would call me out :( lol

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14. Comment #238678 by Tezcatlipoca on August 28, 2008 at 1:18 pm

TWP-

I wondered about the birds as well. I think there were probably different strata with fossils from quite a span of time. I did not think that birds co-existed with mosasaurs.

Either that or it's the great deciever leading us astray from the true path. 80 million year old fossils...tch...It says right there in Jehovah's fairy tales that it's all 6000 years old.

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15. Comment #238691 by dave2 on August 28, 2008 at 1:28 pm

I'm from Winnipeg and this was today's front page news, which pleased me. I wonder how many parents in the city had to explain to their children how and why God hid those fossils there?

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16. Comment #238698 by thewhitepearl on August 28, 2008 at 1:34 pm

CFL,

:) Yes a consipiracy because we scientists folk are working for the devil.

TEZ,

Where ya been man?

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17. Comment #238706 by Tezcatlipoca on August 28, 2008 at 1:39 pm

TWP-

Lurkin and workin'

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18. Comment #238733 by daveau on August 28, 2008 at 2:16 pm

@ColdFusionLazarus

all them animals died 6000 years ago

Sorry, dave2 is correct: those animals were never alive. God put those fossils there to strengthen our faith. Jesus told me.

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19. Comment #238738 by Quetzalcoatl on August 28, 2008 at 2:20 pm

Very cool.

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20. Comment #238750 by burkbraun on August 28, 2008 at 2:32 pm

What do you know- a Discovery Center that actually discovers stuff!

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21. Comment #238761 by SamKiddoGordon on August 28, 2008 at 2:42 pm

If you really want to see fossils, go to the Royal Tyrrell museum in Drumheller, Alberta.

http://www.tyrrellmuseum.com/

Its awesome.

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22. Comment #238793 by InfuriatedSciTeacher on August 28, 2008 at 3:30 pm

Keinen Gott> no worries... after reading my post my tone was more aggressive than I intended or you deserved... although I did fully mean to call you out... feel free to return the favour next time I'm being a moron, it happens enough.

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23. Comment #238809 by shemp333 on August 28, 2008 at 3:49 pm

Fossil museums were one of the big reasons I never became a Christian. That and my natural interest in the real world. I posted before how my love of dinosaurs and present animals was the reason at age 6 it was impossible for the church I was forced to attend to "pull me in". I never believed their stupid fairy tales, and always wanted to just run away because even at that age these people at church, I could tell, were not like me one bit. And I was not the problem.... they were the ones that were a bit screwy. (I was 6 mind you)

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24. Comment #238815 by kaiserkriss on August 28, 2008 at 3:58 pm

SamKiddoGordon: Is your avatar the arches at Rogers pass??It sort of looks familiar, but I can't place it.. jcw

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25. Comment #238884 by skip on August 28, 2008 at 5:27 pm

I was Just out to the Morden Museum (Fossil Discovery Centre) a few weeks ago and took some pictures inside. They have a wonderful EVOLUTION VS CREATIONISM Display board.

You can see it here on my personal web page: http://members.shaw.ca/jdolsson/Morden.htm

Find out why I left the priesthood and became a Dawkin's fan here: www.jeffolsson.com

Enjoy the pictures, the display board made me laugh out loud in pleasure. One of my friends has a family member who works there and she told me that the locals don;t visit very often. Morden is located in Manitoba's "Bible Belt". There is something deeply satisfying about locating a fossil museum in Morden.

Skip

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26. Comment #238888 by SamKiddoGordon on August 28, 2008 at 5:33 pm

Kaiserkriss

That is my wife and 4 of my 5 kids (the last one is only 8 months old) taken at the Rogers pass 3 yrs ago. What can I say, I am a proud Albertan, which is why "Barry Cooper" from Calgary pisses me off.

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27. Comment #238893 by kaiserkriss on August 28, 2008 at 5:40 pm

Thanks for the confirmation about Rogers Pass SamKiddoGordon.

Even though I've lived in Alberta most of my life, the concept of pride escapes me, since I subconsciously link it with tribalism and Nationalism.

That being said, Barry Cooper is an embarrassment to Political"Scientists" everywhere. That he happens to teach at the UofC, reflects poorly on them. He should be retired sooner rather than later.

By the way GO STAMPEDERS!!;-) Get my point? jcw

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28. Comment #238899 by skip on August 28, 2008 at 5:48 pm

By the way, How do I suggest a news article to this website? I occasionally come across some very good ones.

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29. Comment #238908 by phasmagigas on August 28, 2008 at 5:55 pm

i had previously read that mososaurs are giant monitor lizards, interesting, so these animals are specifically lizards and not some 'other ' reptile clade.

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30. Comment #238921 by SamKiddoGordon on August 28, 2008 at 6:28 pm

kk.

I have never lived anywhere but Alberta (except that one year where I was 5 km into Sask, but I only slept there 2 of 5 days), but that doesnt mean that I havent travelled far and wide. As far as tribalism goes, I dont think pride fits. There are alot of Albertans that I am truely embarassed of. Alberta is a place, not a person. No amount of money would make me live somewhere else. I guess I was lucky to have been born here, Alberta and Canada.

STAMPS??? I thought you didnt go for Tribalism.

GO ESKS GO !!! can you call eskimoes tribes, nomads or herds?

When you think about it, how different are sports "fans" from religious "fanatics" in their memes? I would say I was born an Oilers fan, if I hadnt been born 9 yrs before they entered the NHL. My kids on the other hand. ;)

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31. Comment #238931 by Border Collie on August 28, 2008 at 6:46 pm

If I could explore the prehistoric Earth, the last thing I would take would be a cretinist. I propose that they not even be allowed to see or know about fossils. Keep 'em out of the loop completely. Pass a law, make it Biblical. We have nothing to prove to them. Let them stay stupid. Screw 'em.

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32. Comment #238948 by Rationalartist on August 28, 2008 at 7:06 pm

Bluebird, thanks for the link to the museum in Morden. I had no idea it was there! While I'm at it, it's nice to see some fellow Winnipeggers on the site!

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33. Comment #238962 by SomeDanGuy on August 28, 2008 at 8:07 pm

Whoa whoa whoa - it's not a real fossil article without an accompanying "artist's rendition" of the beast. Give it huuuge, scary teeth!

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34. Comment #238988 by Bacterial Symbiote on August 28, 2008 at 9:03 pm

Rationalartist: I believe you are my brother.

A humorous sideline to this story: Morden is part of the bible belt of Manitoba. There are 18 churches for a population of about 6500 people. This compares to about 490 churches in Winnipeg which has a population of approximately 700,000.

Mosasaur fossils in your face bible belters!

This is my first post.

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35. Comment #238995 by Gorilla Man on August 28, 2008 at 9:16 pm

15. Comment #238691 by dave2 on August 28, 2008 at 1:28 pm

I'm from Winnipeg and this was today's front page news, which pleased me. I wonder how many parents in the city had to explain to their children how and why God hid those fossils there?

That's assuming any of them read the newspaper, which might have scary stuff about the real world in it...

;-)

(Edit) - Actually I struck the following line of thought in a discussion elsewhere a while ago.

The Bible says the Earth is 6000 years old, based on the number of human generations described in Genesis. Whatever else we find out about the world, the Bible is the basic truth that everything else has to conform with. Therefore -

Fact One - The Earth is 6000 years old.

Fact Two - There are Dinosaur fossils.

Fact Three - Facts One and Two mean that Dinosaurs existed only thousands of years ago, and all methods of determining the age of the Earth and sedimentary strata are wrong, OR -

God made the Earth as it is. He put it all together and this is how it came out. It only looks old. It's not, really.

These screwy ideas are how we get the "Creation Museum", which shows how people supposedly walked the Earth with the dinosaurs.

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36. Comment #239033 by William Kaiser on August 28, 2008 at 10:51 pm

I seriously doubt that the "bible" explicitly states that the Earth is 6000 years old. Can anyone stomach looking into it to confirm or deny this "fact?"

Wasn't the age of the Earth "calculated" by a few people during the Middle Ages? And then this patently incorrect "calculation" simply repeated by the ignorant down through the years?

Isn't it also correct to say that the "bible" does not have a single reference to anything remotely connected with evolution? So that anyone who claims that the "bible" somehow refutes evolution is making a completely inaccurate statement?

To me, the term "literal translation" is the epitome of an oxymoron. I just checked the definition for both words and they just don't belong together. It's like saying "fact guess".

WK

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37. Comment #239035 by Big T on August 28, 2008 at 11:36 pm

A person calling himself or herself 'Satanburiedfossils' used to post on this site (back in the days when there were giants on the Earth - Yorker, Veronique, Bremas, Jonecc, etc.) God did not bury fossils to test our faith. Adding up the ages of patriarchs and such in the Bible gives us an age of the Earth (and the rest of the universe). That figure is a little over 6,000 years. Since the Bible is 'inerrant', that settles it. Fossils were buried by the Father of Evil himself. I know because he told me so himself yesterday.

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38. Comment #239064 by HunterZolomon on August 29, 2008 at 1:42 am

Big T
Haha! Satandidit? Seriously? I'm surprised God omitted this one from his list:

"Thou shalt not dig in sedimentary rock, for Satans petrified feces lies buried in it."

I always knew archeologists were devil-worshipping bastards.

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39. Comment #239080 by King of NH on August 29, 2008 at 3:00 am

You fools! Look at it again. Can't you see it's a boat with two fossilized sails? It's noah's arc!!!

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40. Comment #239121 by Steever on August 29, 2008 at 5:24 am

bluebird,

Thanks for the link to that museum in Morden. I wasn't even aware of its existence! I'm going to check that out soon (I live in nearby Winnipeg). It'll make a nice day trip for the family ...

Later,
Steever

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41. Comment #239135 by SamKiddoGordon on August 29, 2008 at 6:33 am

kaiserkriss

Changed My avatar, note the Oilers shirts.

Just north of Drumeheller (Where the Royal Tyrrel Dinasour Museum is located,(its Royal cause the Queen was there)), in Big Valley, is another Creationist Museum. It got a small bit on Global Edmonton TV. At the end of the article, the reporters were trying really had not to laugh, and you could see that they thought the people that were interviewed were totally nuts.

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42. Comment #239236 by kaiserkriss on August 29, 2008 at 9:30 am

Sam:

I agree, sports fanatics share memes with religious fanatics.

My Go Stamps comment was a "wind up" comment. With the Labour Day classic coming up this weekend I thought you might rise to the bait :-)

Yup I can just make out the Oilers jerseys. The closest thing I have to a Flames Jersey is one of those red trumpet type noise makers. So I am fairly consistent with my tribalism , nationalism prejudices.

The Creation Museum in Big Valley is indeed hilarious. Here is the link. jcw
http://www.bvcsm.com/

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43. Comment #239271 by popecorkyxxiv on August 29, 2008 at 10:51 am

More Fossils! More! Soon we'll have enough fossils and other pieces of evidence that only the completely loopy theists will be able to deny evolution.

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44. Comment #239560 by Cricket on August 29, 2008 at 11:32 pm

:squint:

This is clear evidence that a large range of animals were buried under a lot of sediment all at the same time. Instead of shooting down arguments nobody is making why wouldn't you all stop to consider the evidence clearly presented?

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