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Sunday, August 31, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Secularists have a right to maintain their ethos

by Independent ie

Thanks to Brian Thomson for the link.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/secularists-have-a-right-to-maintain-their-ethos-1466326.html

Secularists have a right to maintain their ethos
Cardinal Brady is demanding the right to control the way of life of every citizen of Europe, says Emer O'Kelly


SO CARDINAL Sean Brady still expects us to believe that the Catholic Church has no desire to interfere in the political process. The Church's often-repeated mantra to that effect is about as objective and accurate as the mendacious and misleading statement that secularism is hostile to religion.

It can be argued that secularism and relativism, the Cardinal told the Humbert School last Sunday, "enjoy an uncritical acceptance which would never be accorded religious faith".

First, the Cardinal is wrong about hostility. The only hostility in the relationship between religion and secularism is religion's hostility to the demand for rational proof that is the basis of atheism. Religion is also hostile to liberal humanism, because its own doctrinaire authoritarianism won't accept that people can be trusted to live by the tenets of their religion unless the civil code imposes them by law. The Cardinal spoke of "shared humanism": that does not mean one religion imposing its beliefs on those unwilling to accept them.

Far from being hostile to religion, secularists are supremely indifferent to it. Their objection is to religious-based doctrines, laws, and customs being forced on the entire community in order to appease strident religious authorities who do not trust their adherents to live within the code of the faithful unless it is enforced by civil law.

Secularists have no objection to every Roman Catholic in Ireland, for example, spending each Sunday sprinkling broken glass on the sides of Croagh Patrick and then climbing the mountain on their knees.

Secularists have no objection to Roman Catholics burning condoms and packets of contraceptive pills in a merry bonfire to defend the Church's loathing of artificial contraception and the prevention of sexually transmitted diseases. They just don't want to subject themselves to the danger of STDs or to people the earth with unwanted children.

Secularists have no objection to Roman Catholic homosexuals living celibate lives, their natural instincts held in abeyance by prayer and fasting according to the Church's teaching. But they object strongly to laws being passed by their parliaments which force secular gay men and women to live by those teachings.

Second, the Cardinal was impertinent to Irish and other European citizens when he asked if the debate in the European Union was fair or representative of the views and convictions of the majority of the people here in Ireland. And he blamed the media for being dominated by a secular view hostile to or disposed to relegate the value of religion.

Secularists never deny the value of religion to those who believe in it; they merely do not want its teachings to dominate their own lives. And the Cardinal is in dangerous territory because he implies that only religious values can ensure an ethical society. In this, of course, he is at one with President George W Bush, who is on record as saying that atheists are "not citizens", because to be a citizen you have be at one with god.

"Is it possible," the Cardinal asked, "to agree that there are objective values for which we should have serious regard because of their implications for the good of society?"

Objective by whose standards, in what era?

Half a century ago, the objective values for which the Irish hierarchy had serious regard included obstructing a health service designed to protect the lives of mothers and their children: communism by another name, the Church howled. And the poor and their babies died in droves. Objectivity can be a very subjective matter.

"Successive decisions (in Europe) which have undermined the family based on marriage, the right to life from the moment of conception to natural death, the sacredness of the Sabbath, the right of Christian institutions to maintain and promote their ethos, including schools, these and other decisions have made it more difficult for committed Christians to maintain their instinctive commitment to the European project," Cardinal Brady said.

That doesn't sound like a man and an organisation that does not wish to control a legislature, national or international. Cardinal Brady is comprehensively demanding the right to control the way of life of every citizen in every European country, whether Christian or not, much less Roman Catholic.

It does not seem to have occurred to the Cardinal before he made his sweepingly arrogant demand that those of no religion also have a right to maintain their ethos.

But there are no secular State schools in Ireland, not one, and Dr Brady and his cohorts are determined to keep it that way. And the Church (despite what some people believe) is so dominant that it has managed to brainwash the public (even some secularists) into believing that a multi-denominational or inter-denominational school is a secular school and should be quite acceptable to those who wish their children to be raised with a secular humanist ethos.

Without respect for "Christian memory and soul", the Cardinal claimed, difficulties will emerge not only in economic terms but in terms of social cohesion and the continued growth of a "dangerous individualism" that does not care about God ... with continuing difficulties for the European project. So much for "instinctive commitment" to the project, which was another of his phrases.

Instinct is vague, just like religious faith: an irrational comfort zone. The European project, as Dr Brady calls it, is a very defined political entity, and it is based on political reality, not on instinct. It's not a woolly feelgood factor which can be abandoned if the going becomes intellectually or politically rigorous. It involves a defined common core of political values in which all citizens can share, not just those of a given faith, or all religious faiths.

The kind of "instinctive commitment" the Cardinal seems to be talking about is a blithe membership club where each member can make their own rules, the devil (if you'll forgive the phrase) taking the hindmost. Except clubs don't work that way; certainly the Roman Catholic Church club does not. You're in and you keep the rules, or you get out. The Cardinal should understand that.

You can't keep only the rules that suit you.

It was what Wolfe Tone meant when he spoke of Republicanism: it could unite Catholic, Protestant, and Dissenter, he said.

He didn't mean that it would incorporate all of their beliefs; what it would do was separate itself entirely from religious belief, so that clashing doctrines of transubstantiation, Eucharist, biblical interpretations and the other elements of Christianity which had given people the excuse to murder each other for generations in the name of various denominational gods, could move forward in political brotherhood.

And they could still go to church, chapel, or meeting house on Sunday, each in their own way.

Two hundred-odd years later, nothing has changed. Nobody is asking the Cardinal's flock, or the Archbishop of Canterbury's flock, or anybody else's flock, to deny their beliefs or abandon a way of life which reflects them.

They are just asked to respect the beliefs of others, and accept the existence of an ethical code which may not include Allah, Jehovah, or Jesus Christ.

Secularists, even atheistic secularists, are not the anti-Christ. Most of them live their lives as well or as badly as fervent Christians. They pay their taxes, they don't kill other people, and they don't molest children. They probably don't even spit on the street, much less on each other. They keep the law and behave decently because they believe that humanity is the highest form of life. And they object very strongly to being told that they are slavering monsters of depravity because they don't believe in a supernatural being.

Comments 1 - 47 of 47 |

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1. Comment #240316 by healthphysicist on August 31, 2008 at 10:41 am

I think that the quote attributed to President George W. Bush was actually made by his father, former President George H.W. Bush.

Other Comments by healthphysicist

2. Comment #240319 by J Mac on August 31, 2008 at 10:47 am

 avatar"an uncritical acceptance which would never be accorded religious faith"

Awe hell. I need to go back to bed, I clearly did not wake up to reality today.

Other Comments by J Mac

3. Comment #240321 by Jack Rawlinson on August 31, 2008 at 10:53 am

 avatar
Far from being hostile to religion, secularists are supremely indifferent to it.


Err, not this secularist, mate. I'm actively hostile to religion. You don't speak for me.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

4. Comment #240365 by stereoroid on August 31, 2008 at 11:54 am

 avatar"Awe hell. I need to go back to bed, I clearly did not wake up to reality today. "

Nah - you're fine, it's that Cardinal who's talking in his sleep.

PS: if anyone's wondering who Wolfe Tone was... no, he wasn't in a band. He was, in effect, the first Irish Republican, so you can imagine he's got a few statues in the 26 counties... and he wasn't even Catholic.

Other Comments by stereoroid

5. Comment #240402 by german-atheist on August 31, 2008 at 12:52 pm

@healthphysist

though i don`t think it too important,but it really was bush jr.
in a press conference during the campaign for his second turn he was asked by a journalist what he would say to atheist citizens why they should vote for him.
he answered s.th.like:i don`t regard atheists as american citizens.
there is a video of this,either on youtube or on a website of an atheist/secular organization.

like jack rawlinson i am hostile to religion but i am cool with the article.
i like the way it clearly says:secularists don`t care how you (the religious)live your lives,
but stop fucking with my way of living.

Other Comments by german-atheist

6. Comment #240425 by OhioLen on August 31, 2008 at 1:16 pm

 avatar"They keep the law and behave decently because they believe that humanity is the highest form of life."

That "highest" bit doesn't sit right with me. Life is life and despite our delusions of grandeur, bacteria and viruses rule the world.

Other Comments by OhioLen

7. Comment #240469 by beanson on August 31, 2008 at 1:58 pm

 avatarI thought the Irish were supposed to have a way with words, this clumbsy article is a struggle to read

Other Comments by beanson

8. Comment #240509 by Shane McKee on August 31, 2008 at 2:36 pm

 avatarThere was a time not very long ago when this sort of article could not be published in Ireland. A couple of weeks ago there was an article in the Irish edition of the Sunday Times (must find the link) decrying continuing state support for religion. I recall it being good... Must Find Link...

Ireland is changing; that is what is making the Cardinal wet his cassock, and he's not the only one.

Other Comments by Shane McKee

9. Comment #240515 by amalthea on August 31, 2008 at 2:43 pm

 avatarI have a small problem with the word 'respect' in this context, especially in relation to a catholic cardinal. I, personally, have no 'respect' for the beliefs of anyone who condones penalising people who use condoms, having abortions (for whatever reason), marrying a same sex partner, or indeed thinking for themselves. I'm not just pointing the finger at the catholics, all religions are guilty of similar crimes against reason.

How about something like 'believe what you like, but don't even mention it to me'? To include Sunday TV programming, street preachers and door to door bible-thumpers.

Oh, and don't even think about pouring out your poison in my children's schools. That should suffice.

And yes, I am hostile to all religions. No exceptions.


As an afterthought, how would it go if the atheists/secularists started knocking on their doors at some ridiculuous hour on a saturday morning, asking if they knew there was no god, and didn't they think it was all a bit silly to believe in a sky-fairy? Questions in Parliament perhaps?

Rant ends..........

Other Comments by amalthea

10. Comment #240528 by Skeptic Pete on August 31, 2008 at 2:57 pm

5. Comment #240402 by german-atheist on August 31, 2008 at 12:52 pm

@healthphysist

though i don`t think it too important,but it really was bush jr.
-------------------------------------------------

I think you'll find you're wrong about that.

Other Comments by Skeptic Pete

11. Comment #240556 by Andrew Stich on August 31, 2008 at 3:24 pm

healthphysicist,

I don't know, let's see...

Wikiquote...

"No, I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God."
Attributed to George H. W. Bush by Robert I. Sherman in a private conversation, August 27, 1987

...

Exactly right! This was under the "Misattributed" section of the George W. Bush Wikiquote article.

Thanks for enlightening me, I had thought it was George W. Bush.

Other Comments by Andrew Stich

12. Comment #240621 by german-atheist on August 31, 2008 at 5:25 pm

i was wrong about jr.-sen.
i remember the video though-it was not a conference room,it was in daylight and somewhere around an airport.
bush,sen. did not say it in a private conversation,so at least i was right about that. i haven`t found the video but i found this text when i checked on youtube(i don`t know how to use quotes):


When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice-president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates, had the following exchange with then-Vice-President Bush. Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists? Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in God is important to me. Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists? Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God. Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church? Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists.

Other Comments by german-atheist

13. Comment #240640 by Hellene on August 31, 2008 at 6:40 pm

 avatarG.W. Bush had said;

"Atheists? Well they're immoral aren't they?"

Came off a bit unsure of himself. As if he was remembering what it was he was supposed to say. I have not been able to pin down the time or place exactly. But I generally have a pretty good memory for this kind of stuff. It was on T.V..


Anyone else remember this? It was not his father.

Other Comments by Hellene

14. Comment #240734 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 1:36 am

 avatar
Except clubs don't work that way; certainly the Roman Catholic Church club does not. You're in and you keep the rules, or you get out.
I like this. The missing part in a lot of religion, though, is the realisation on the part of its members that they are allowed to leave the club if they don't like what it is doing or where it is headed. They could always try to get on "the Board" and change it from the inside, but it might just be better to split off and make your own club.

This might be the only way that Islam can be modified into something less dangerous - get enough people wanting it to be something else, and start a breakaway group. Not that I am confident it would work very quickly, but over time we might just find that enough people prefer being treated nicely and things might change. This is my hope, anyway. It happened with Christianity, so I have my hopes.

Other Comments by Sargeist

15. Comment #240739 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 1:43 am

 avatar
"Is it possible," the Cardinal asked, "to agree that there are objective values for which we should have serious regard because of their implications for the good of society?"

Objective by whose standards, in what era?

Half a century ago, the objective values for which the Irish hierarchy had serious regard included obstructing a health service designed to protect the lives of mothers and their children: communism by another name, the Church howled. And the poor and their babies died in droves. Objectivity can be a very subjective matter.
Sorry for the comment attack, but this was also very good. In another thread there has been robust conversation about objective morality, and I think that the "objective by whose standards" bit is actually quite pertinent both there and here. I was going to quote more from the article, but realised I would end up pasting most of it into the comment box. The Catholic Church appears to never have given up its aims of political control.
This article covers nicely some of the ways in which religion and politics are a dangerous mixture. Can anyone sensibly refute the contention that women are actually much better off nowadays without Church interference? We hear so much about how religion encourages charity and the care of the weak and oppressed, but so often it appears that this so-called "charity" is performed only as a way of brainwashing the masses, or of trying to convince people that their suffering brings them closer to god.

And they object very strongly to being told that they are slavering monsters of depravity because they don't believe in a supernatural being.
Too right. Although I am trying hard to be more monstrous. Just can't quite manage it.

Other Comments by Sargeist

16. Comment #240779 by dvespertilio on September 1, 2008 at 3:11 am

As one who was waylaid by catholicism from birth, I can confidently say that the cardinal should go stuff it! If he can't offer clear, concise, and rational bases for his views, then he should just sit down and shut up. Clearly the catholic church and other such religious institutions (ayatollahs and such come to mind) DO have a political agenda and, if given free rein and not vigorously confronted, may very well be, literally, the death of all of us.

Other Comments by dvespertilio

17. Comment #240782 by dvespertilio on September 1, 2008 at 3:14 am

Tell me more about Wolfe Tone. Who was he, exactly?

Other Comments by dvespertilio

18. Comment #240830 by PJG on September 1, 2008 at 6:04 am

 avatar
You can't keep only the rules that suit you.


This is exactly what they DO expect to do. They cherry-pick Scripture. What makes anyone think they want to treat "man-made" rules with more respect?

Other Comments by PJG

19. Comment #240832 by John Desclin on September 1, 2008 at 6:11 am

It is not often that one can read such poorly written prose, both by the journalist responsible for it and by a representative of the catholic clergy!
IMHO a wonderful example of stale crap!

Other Comments by John Desclin

20. Comment #240835 by Ygern on September 1, 2008 at 6:28 am

@ dvespertilio
More about Wolfe Tone: http://www.communistpartyofireland.ie/1798/tone.html

I live in Ireland at the moment, and trust me, the tone of this article is about as liberal and avant garde as it gets in the media at the moment. I nearly choked on my mid-morning Sunday cappucino when I saw this article in the paper yesterday.

Frankly, an overbearing number of politicians here are as bad as their US counterparts when it comes to making daft religious invocations all over the place; and fall over themselves to impress on each other how much they love the Vatican and all its glory.

You should head over to atheist.ie and take a gander at some of the arguments over there. A lot of secularists feel they should keep their heads down to avoid a nasty backlash both in public and private life. And sadly, they are not entirely wrong either, even if I do disagree with them. Ireland is still heavily and horribly under the influence of hundreds of years of indoctrination by the Catholic Church.

Other Comments by Ygern

21. Comment #240840 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 6:48 am

 avatarMuch as I often have some moral problems with abortion, this story was so horrifically awful, and so obviously a terrible product of the lunacy within the Catholic Church and its brainwashing that it really made me boil inside when I heard about it.

I mean, whatever one's thoughts about the killing of a foetus/embryo/baby/etc, surely one without a brain and missing most of its head cannot be regarded as something with a right to life?

Surely?

EDIT: Fortunately, it seems that sense prevailed (in the end):Here

But the quote that really makes me incandescent here is:
On the Saturday before the bank holiday that court refused the order, citing the Irish constitution's protection of the right to life of the unborn child.
Yes, that's right. The right to life of a body without a brain or much of its head.

Well, I suppose it could have gone on to get a job with the Irish Health Service.

Other Comments by Sargeist

22. Comment #240843 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 6:53 am

 avatarSargeist-

It's stories like those that demonstrate the lunacy of absolutism for all to see. As I remember there were plenty of people who argued in favour of the child being carried to term: "rights of the child" trumping the mother's. I can't remember how the story turned out, though.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

23. Comment #240844 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 6:58 am

 avatarHi, Quetz.

Having been embroiled (in a purely lurking sense) in the moral absolutes & objectivity insurgence on Another Thread, when I read things such as the Irish abortion case I find myself wondering constantly now about "why do I think that is wrong?" It all seems to come down to a certain amount of "ick", a bit of "emotional reaction" and a sprinkling of "do unto others."

I've not read enough ethics, no doubt. But part of me really does think that our knee-jerk reactions could be a good basis for a system of ethics. But only because I happen to think my morals are the right ones! ;)

I possibly subscribe to a woolly, vague system of "subjective absolutism" or something. We are always right when we think we are right. But that doesn't mean that what we think is right doesn't often change. Not sure what use such an attitude has though!

Other Comments by Sargeist

24. Comment #240848 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 7:06 am

 avatarSargeist-

But part of me really does think that our knee-jerk reactions could be a good basis for a system of ethics.


I've often thought that everybody thinks like this, believer or not. That's why some believers will interpret the Bible as saying homosexuality is abhorrent- it's as much their own personal distaste for it than anything else.

The danger is in assuming that our knee-jerk reactions are always the right ones.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

25. Comment #240852 by Steve Zara on September 1, 2008 at 7:10 am

 avatarComment #240844 by Sargeist

It all seems to come down to a certain amount of "ick", a bit of "emotional reaction" and a sprinkling of "do unto others."


I think that is a fair summary.

My ethics include a version of "do unto others" that goes like this:

"Don't make it possible for things to be done to others that you would not like to be done to you".

This means that claims of absolutes aren't reasonable. I can't go around claiming, without a convincing proof, that I know the absolute truth, as I can't then ask that someone else proves their claim of knowing the absolute truth about something.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

26. Comment #240856 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 7:16 am

 avatarThe way I interpreted the ongoing (I assume) argument "elsewhere" on the site was that it was ultimately about what "the right ones" actually means...

The way I see it, if we cannot say that "right" is a fixed thing, then all we can do is do what we currently think is right at any particular time. The fact that things change is annoying for an absolutist approach to morality, but maybe we just have to live with that.

I worry about these things because there appear to be no ultimate right and wrong, just opinion. But is it the opinion of the majority? In which case, why does the majority agree that democracy should protect minorities? Is it just an accident? Maybe nothing "matters" in any "real" sense? But, what do those words "matter" and "real" mean anyway?

It all gets very awkward and annoying.

I like to think that our ethics are, sort of, entirely obvious and easy. Almost everyone agrees that being happy and free of pain is better than being miserable and in pain. This comes about through some brain chemistry or other, and so perhaps there is a biological basis for morality. But it bugs me a great deal because even if we think we are thinking rationally about something, it all comes down to a bunch of assumptions. Even the apparently simple idea that being happy is better than not being happy requires us to make a leap and state: "And that is what I mean by the distinction between good and bad."

But, going back to my "it's easy" musings - maybe it is all easy? Almost everyone prefers things to be one way rather than another, and so that makes it right. We have an in-built "conscience" through our evolved empathy, and this might be good enough.

Sorry for the rather rambling nature of this!

Other Comments by Sargeist

27. Comment #240858 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 7:27 am

 avatarSteve,

On the other thread you said something like (I write from memory): If you impose rules against certain thoughts that are not liked, then you might find that you will become subject to them when different thoughts are not liked.

This ties in with your comment above:
I can't go around claiming, without a convincing proof, that I know the absolute truth, as I can't then ask that someone else proves their claim of knowing the absolute truth about something.
But, of course, I wonder: Why not? Is there not an assumption along the lines of "consistency is good" in there?

Now, I do think that consistency is good. And it tends to be the basis of a lot of the things I think. But I think that it is also the source of the slippery slope argument: "if we let them have/do that, then we'll have to let them have/do this." And yet slippery slopes are generally dismissed as fallacious.

Other Comments by Sargeist

28. Comment #240863 by Peacebeuponme on September 1, 2008 at 7:31 am

Sargeist
I like to think that our ethics are, sort of, entirely obvious and easy.
Agreed.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

29. Comment #240864 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 7:39 am

 avatarSargeist-

But, going back to my "it's easy" musings - maybe it is all easy? Almost everyone prefers things to be one way rather than another, and so that makes it right. We have an in-built "conscience" through our evolved empathy, and this might be good enough.


Indeed. The role of evolution in shaping the way we think about things needs to be pushed more, I think. The fact that so many different cultures have come up with similar concepts of right and wrong is potent evidence for common evolutionary altruism.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

30. Comment #240867 by Steve Zara on September 1, 2008 at 7:51 am

 avatarComment #240858 by Sargeist

I would say it is more about fairness than a slippery slope. I don't believe groups should get privilege because of what they claim to believe. Consistency is not just a vague feeling, it is the basis of a fair society.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

31. Comment #240869 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 7:53 am

 avatarSteve Zara-

Consistency is not just a vague feeling, it is the basis of a fair society.


That sounds like a very absolutist statement there, Steve. :)

(FK impression)

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

32. Comment #240873 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 8:01 am

 avatarI know Quetz was being tongue-in-cheek, but I would probably take it seriously (sorry). I may be being very relativistic (which is why it takes me so long to type things - boom, boom) but any value words such as good, bad, fair, and so on surely have to be matters of opinion. They may end up being universally agreed matters of opinion, but they are opinions nonetheless.

Even fairness is an awkward one, I think, and just comes down to having to agree on what "fair" means. Maybe I am arguing in circles, I don't know. What I am trying to say is that you and I would have to agree on what "fair society" means, and then agree that we want it. Then all would be fine, until a 3rd person comes along who may have different ideas. We hope to end up in consensus, but I don't think that the issue of consistency is necessarily any more important than other ethical questions.

I am thinking now that one could view consistency in a logical way: I say that "X deserves Y" and you say that "Z is a kind of X, therefore it deserves Y". But then I could try to protect the exclusive access of X to Y by pointing out the ways in which X and Z differ, claiming that these differences mean that Z is not deserving of Y. You can then argue with me about why it does, and I say not, etc etc. So we would argue about what it means to be consistent, and this ends up being a matter of opinion, too.

Just cos I don't see a way out of it does not mean anything of course!

Other Comments by Sargeist

33. Comment #240878 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 8:14 am

 avatarSargeist-

I was being tongue-in-cheek (I know, it's a shock).

Consistency is important, but it can't be the most important thing for the simple reason that we aren't consistent a lot of the time (ie murder is wrong, EXCEPT for such and such a time).

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

34. Comment #240884 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 8:25 am

 avatarI once had a little discussion with a friend about war. I said that I thought it was interesting how we fight each other to sort things out, which comes down to strength and money for weapons etc, but we could just as easily play chess, for example, to sort things out.

My friend's response was that let's say we sit down for a game of chess, and I beat him. He will then pull out a gun and shoot me.

It is in our nature to do these things and, much as it bothers me to say it, I sometimes think (amongst all the other things that I sometimes think) that ethics is just the art of what you can get away with.

An example I like to think of is wild animals. They just "do what they do". David Attenborough will go somewhere and say "Animal X, when presented with situation Y, will do actions from set Z", and this is possible only because animals pretty much just "do what they do." Is it "wrong" for a male lion to kill the younger cubs when he takes over a pride? We don't worry about these things because it's just what lions do. So, sometimes I think ethics is a waste of breath. And sometimes I don't. But I do wonder whether empathy is a disease that most other animals don't "suffer" from.

Other Comments by Sargeist

35. Comment #240886 by Peacebeuponme on September 1, 2008 at 8:29 am

Sargeist
Even fairness is an awkward one, I think, and just comes down to having to agree on what "fair" means. Maybe I am arguing in circles, I don't know. What I am trying to say is that you and I would have to agree on what "fair society" means, and then agree that we want it.
I think "fair" has a pretty objective meaning. I agree there could be problems talking about "fair society" though.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

36. Comment #240887 by Steve Zara on September 1, 2008 at 8:31 am

 avatarComment #240869 by Quetzalcoatl

Heh.

I actually see the real basis for fairness and democracy and secularism is .... not wanting to get hit (in all kinds of ways)!

If we aren't going to resolve questions by shouting or force, then we have to sit down and talk. The use of reason in public discussions is advisable because most people are reasonable about most things and it also helps protect the minority and individual against majorities. That is a good idea, because almost everyone is in some kind of minority.

So I think that a requirement for fairness, all the way up to the wish for secular democracy, is based on enlightened self-interest.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

37. Comment #240891 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 8:42 am

 avatarSteve,

Now, you see, this is why I couldn't see what you and FK were arguing about! If there is a requirement for fairness (by which I mean that almost everyone wants it) and this is because we don't want to get shot after games of chess, or get smacked in the face (and hence, is pain-avoidance) then I would be perfectly happy to just define "good things" as being those actions that tend to help us all avoid being smacked in the face. And if we all have common biology then it will mostly be the case that our likes and dislikes will be broadly similar in this sort of respect. And so... maybe this means that, within any meaningful definition of "objective morality", morality based on pain-avoidance and happiness-increase could be said to be objective?

This is probably just utilitarianism, and I do not know enough about theories of ethics to continue with this point, but the upshot is that it looks as though slavery, par example, really was wrong even when people thought it was right.

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38. Comment #240892 by Donald on September 1, 2008 at 8:44 am

Sargeist "... I sometimes think (amongst all the other things that I sometimes think) that ethics is just the art of what you can get away with."

I know that doesn't represent your considered judgement, but is intended as a thought-in-progress.

I would prefer to be explicit about sustainability in such a remark. Ethics differs from the instincts of simpler animals in that humans can think further ahead in their reasoning about consequences (and need to, given the complexities of modern human society compared to the society of simpler animals).

So the remark would become "ethics is just the art of selecting the best that you can hope to get away with *on a sustained basis, once others see what you are up to*." That seems to be less controversial.

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39. Comment #240893 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 8:54 am

 avatarGoing off on a tangent to what Sargeist and Donald said:

It may be true that ethics may have started out as "just the art of what you can get away with". But obviously it transcends that, given that we are often in situations where we could get away with doing something wrong but still choose not to.

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40. Comment #240894 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 8:54 am

 avatarHi Donald,

Yes, I agree, that is a better way to say what I (ought to have) said :)

This consequentialism leads on to tit-for-tat, I think, and helps to explain the evolution of cooperation. So, cooperation could be a result of having to deal with the biological fact that, even if I am top dog now, bodily decay and dysfunction means that, sooner or later, I will be at the mercy of people in the future who are like I am now. So I'd better encourage them to be nice by being nice, too.

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41. Comment #240895 by Steve Zara on September 1, 2008 at 8:55 am

 avatarComment #240891 by Sargeist

And so... maybe this means that, within any meaningful definition of "objective morality", morality based on pain-avoidance and happiness-increase could be said to be objective?


Not really. The problem is that who gets to say pain-avoidance and happiness-increase are good? Some people think that pain-avoidance and happiness-increase require gay people to be oppressed. Some religious people think that they may require living a pretty miserable live in order to experience a happy and pain-free afterlife.

All we can do is have a personal belief about what is good, and then discuss this with others to see if they share that belief. Ethics should be a collaboration, not a personal assertion.

What I was arguing about with Fanusi was his insistence that death and suffering are objectively and absolutely evil. I think using such terms is both wrong and problematic.

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42. Comment #240897 by Steve Zara on September 1, 2008 at 8:57 am

 avatarComment #240894 by Sargeist

That is a very good way of putting things.

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43. Comment #240899 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 9:01 am

 avatarCheers, Steve :)

This was a fun discussion. I'm probably back where I started, with a big jumble of things in my head. But I think I agree, basically, with what this few of us have been saying here. Yes, for me it is pretty much about cooperation and collaboration. And this is presumably because people mostly all behave the same. I always say mostly because of that hypothetical psychopathic individual who always scuppers the Kantian imperative by thinking all sorts of things could be made into a general law.

Right, I'd better be off. I may reappear later after some work has been achieved!

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44. Comment #240900 by Donald on September 1, 2008 at 9:06 am

Quetz "we could get away with doing something wrong but still choose not to."

Right, but self-interest can still offer an explanation. How sure are we that we really could get away with it for ever (= rest of our lives). Chance remarks, accidental discoveries, patterns of behaviour leading to suspicions by others, are all reasons why an intelligent and farsighted human might not be sure of "getting away with it". Also human nature makes it difficult for most of us to "live a lie". If our brains have to maintain two versions of the world, one in which we did the wrong thing, and another one (the one we want everyone else to believe) in which we did not do that wrong thing, then there is "cognitive dissonance". This is a mental burden, and the fewer such burdens we have the better for us.

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45. Comment #240903 by J Mac on September 1, 2008 at 9:12 am

 avatar"Ethics should be a collaboration, not a personal assertion"

Can we have that put in the text books? Well said.

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46. Comment #240905 by FXR on September 1, 2008 at 9:15 am

 avatarThis article was written in Ireland and even more significantly was printed in a newspaper owned by avowed Catholic Anthony O'Reilly. Mr. O'Reilly has in the past played down the extent of child rape and torture by catholic priests in Ireland.

However it shows the weight of the shifting Zeitgeist that his paper should even allow printing this article. Not a few short ago years in Ireland no one, unless they wanted to be out of a job, would have criticised the all powerful Catholic Church Limited. At the moment in Ireland the CCL controls (they don't actually pay) 95% of our schools. There is a growing movement to change this but it's being resisted by Catholic politicians and people like Mr. Brady.

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47. Comment #240906 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 9:16 am

 avatarDonald-

I agree, but my point was that self-interest isn't the only factor.

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