Secularists have a right to maintain their ethos2. Comment #240319 by J Mac on August 31, 2008 at 10:47 am
3. Comment #240321 by Jack Rawlinson on August 31, 2008 at 10:53 am
Far from being hostile to religion, secularists are supremely indifferent to it.
4. Comment #240365 by stereoroid on August 31, 2008 at 11:54 am
5. Comment #240402 by german-atheist on August 31, 2008 at 12:52 pm
@healthphysist6. Comment #240425 by OhioLen on August 31, 2008 at 1:16 pm
"They keep the law and behave decently because they believe that humanity is the highest form of life."7. Comment #240469 by beanson on August 31, 2008 at 1:58 pm
8. Comment #240509 by Shane McKee on August 31, 2008 at 2:36 pm
9. Comment #240515 by amalthea on August 31, 2008 at 2:43 pm
10. Comment #240528 by Skeptic Pete on August 31, 2008 at 2:57 pm
5. Comment #240402 by german-atheist on August 31, 2008 at 12:52 pm11. Comment #240556 by Andrew Stich on August 31, 2008 at 3:24 pm
healthphysicist,12. Comment #240621 by german-atheist on August 31, 2008 at 5:25 pm
i was wrong about jr.-sen.13. Comment #240640 by Hellene on August 31, 2008 at 6:40 pm
14. Comment #240734 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 1:36 am
Except clubs don't work that way; certainly the Roman Catholic Church club does not. You're in and you keep the rules, or you get out.I like this. The missing part in a lot of religion, though, is the realisation on the part of its members that they are allowed to leave the club if they don't like what it is doing or where it is headed. They could always try to get on "the Board" and change it from the inside, but it might just be better to split off and make your own club.
15. Comment #240739 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 1:43 am
"Is it possible," the Cardinal asked, "to agree that there are objective values for which we should have serious regard because of their implications for the good of society?"Sorry for the comment attack, but this was also very good. In another thread there has been robust conversation about objective morality, and I think that the "objective by whose standards" bit is actually quite pertinent both there and here. I was going to quote more from the article, but realised I would end up pasting most of it into the comment box. The Catholic Church appears to never have given up its aims of political control.
Objective by whose standards, in what era?
Half a century ago, the objective values for which the Irish hierarchy had serious regard included obstructing a health service designed to protect the lives of mothers and their children: communism by another name, the Church howled. And the poor and their babies died in droves. Objectivity can be a very subjective matter.
And they object very strongly to being told that they are slavering monsters of depravity because they don't believe in a supernatural being.Too right. Although I am trying hard to be more monstrous. Just can't quite manage it.
16. Comment #240779 by dvespertilio on September 1, 2008 at 3:11 am
As one who was waylaid by catholicism from birth, I can confidently say that the cardinal should go stuff it! If he can't offer clear, concise, and rational bases for his views, then he should just sit down and shut up. Clearly the catholic church and other such religious institutions (ayatollahs and such come to mind) DO have a political agenda and, if given free rein and not vigorously confronted, may very well be, literally, the death of all of us.17. Comment #240782 by dvespertilio on September 1, 2008 at 3:14 am
Tell me more about Wolfe Tone. Who was he, exactly?18. Comment #240830 by PJG on September 1, 2008 at 6:04 am
You can't keep only the rules that suit you.
19. Comment #240832 by John Desclin on September 1, 2008 at 6:11 am
It is not often that one can read such poorly written prose, both by the journalist responsible for it and by a representative of the catholic clergy!20. Comment #240835 by Ygern on September 1, 2008 at 6:28 am
@ dvespertilio21. Comment #240840 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 6:48 am
On the Saturday before the bank holiday that court refused the order, citing the Irish constitution's protection of the right to life of the unborn child.Yes, that's right. The right to life of a body without a brain or much of its head.
22. Comment #240843 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 6:53 am
23. Comment #240844 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 6:58 am
24. Comment #240848 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 7:06 am
But part of me really does think that our knee-jerk reactions could be a good basis for a system of ethics.
25. Comment #240852 by Steve Zara on September 1, 2008 at 7:10 am
It all seems to come down to a certain amount of "ick", a bit of "emotional reaction" and a sprinkling of "do unto others."
26. Comment #240856 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 7:16 am
27. Comment #240858 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 7:27 am
I can't go around claiming, without a convincing proof, that I know the absolute truth, as I can't then ask that someone else proves their claim of knowing the absolute truth about something.But, of course, I wonder: Why not? Is there not an assumption along the lines of "consistency is good" in there?
28. Comment #240863 by Peacebeuponme on September 1, 2008 at 7:31 am
SargeistI like to think that our ethics are, sort of, entirely obvious and easy.Agreed.
29. Comment #240864 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 7:39 am
But, going back to my "it's easy" musings - maybe it is all easy? Almost everyone prefers things to be one way rather than another, and so that makes it right. We have an in-built "conscience" through our evolved empathy, and this might be good enough.
30. Comment #240867 by Steve Zara on September 1, 2008 at 7:51 am
31. Comment #240869 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 7:53 am
Consistency is not just a vague feeling, it is the basis of a fair society.
32. Comment #240873 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 8:01 am
33. Comment #240878 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 8:14 am
34. Comment #240884 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 8:25 am
35. Comment #240886 by Peacebeuponme on September 1, 2008 at 8:29 am
SargeistEven fairness is an awkward one, I think, and just comes down to having to agree on what "fair" means. Maybe I am arguing in circles, I don't know. What I am trying to say is that you and I would have to agree on what "fair society" means, and then agree that we want it.I think "fair" has a pretty objective meaning. I agree there could be problems talking about "fair society" though.
36. Comment #240887 by Steve Zara on September 1, 2008 at 8:31 am
37. Comment #240891 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 8:42 am
38. Comment #240892 by Donald on September 1, 2008 at 8:44 am
Sargeist "... I sometimes think (amongst all the other things that I sometimes think) that ethics is just the art of what you can get away with."39. Comment #240893 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 8:54 am
40. Comment #240894 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 8:54 am
41. Comment #240895 by Steve Zara on September 1, 2008 at 8:55 am
And so... maybe this means that, within any meaningful definition of "objective morality", morality based on pain-avoidance and happiness-increase could be said to be objective?
42. Comment #240897 by Steve Zara on September 1, 2008 at 8:57 am
43. Comment #240899 by Sargeist on September 1, 2008 at 9:01 am
44. Comment #240900 by Donald on September 1, 2008 at 9:06 am
Quetz "we could get away with doing something wrong but still choose not to."45. Comment #240903 by J Mac on September 1, 2008 at 9:12 am
46. Comment #240905 by FXR on September 1, 2008 at 9:15 am
47. Comment #240906 by Quetzalcoatl on September 1, 2008 at 9:16 am
1. Comment #240316 by healthphysicist on August 31, 2008 at 10:41 am
I think that the quote attributed to President George W. Bush was actually made by his father, former President George H.W. Bush.Other Comments by healthphysicist