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Wednesday, November 15, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document The God Delusion? Part 1

by Deepak Chopra

Thanks to Mark for the link!

Reposted from:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/deepak-chopra/the-god-delusion-part-1_b_34200.html

Recently there have been a spate of books about God from scientists responding to the debate over intelligent design that flared up last year. These books raise a chorus of skepticism that God exists, most in no uncertain terms. Science stands for rational thought, faith for superstition and unreason. The latest bestseller in this vein is Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion," and since I had the chance to debate Dawkins on Channel 4 in England, I wanted to pick up the subject here.

Dawkins has written extensively on evolution, holds a chair at Oxford University, and speaks out loudly against any possibility that God is real. He makes many points to support his claim that religion is nonsense and that there isn't the slightest shred of rational proof for God, miracles, the soul, etc. Since this is such an important issue, I want to argue against him point by point in some detail.

1. Science is the only valid way to gain knowledge. Nothing about God is needed to explain the world. Eventually science will uncover all mysteries. Those that it can't explain don't exist.

This is the bedrock of Dawkins' argument, as it is of most skeptics and scientific atheists. In his new book Dawkins expresses his position with deep disdain for those who disagree, and his poisonous tone weakens his argument. Yet there's no doubt that with current advances in genetics and brain research, scientists have more confidence than ever that mysteries are being unraveled as never before. By the same token, something as primitive as faith in God looks more and more pointless and misguided. At best God is a matter of personal belief, at worst a superstition that blocks progress (in the way the Bush Administration uses theology to block stem-cell research).

The unfairness of this argument is that it squeezes God into a corner. Dawkins makes it an us-versus-them issue. Either you are for science (that is, reason, progress, modernism, optimism about the future) or you are for religion (that is, unreason, reactionary resistance to progress, clinging to mysteries that only God can solve). He goes so far as to tar anyone who believes in God with the same brush as extreme religious fanatics. Sadly, the media often follow his lead, erasing the truth, which is that many scientists are religious and many of the greatest scientists (including Newton and Einstein) probed deep into the existence of God. Not to mention the obvious fact that you don't have to go to church, or even belong to a religion, to find God plausible.

But let's leave Dawkins' heated and unfair rhetoric aside. Is science the only route to knowledge? Obviously not. I know that my mother loved me all her life, as I love my own children. I feel genius in great works of art. None of this knowledge is validated by science. I have seen medical cures that science can't explain, some seemingly triggered by faith. The same is true of millions of other people. I know that I am conscious and have a self, even though Dawkins--along with many arch materialists--doesn't believe that consciousness is real or that the self is anything but a chemical illusion created in the brain. By Dawkins' reasoning a mother's love is no more real than God as neither can be empirically quantified.

A materialist could conceivably analyze the brain functions of a Mozart or Beethoven down to the last synaptic firing, but that would tell us nothing about why music exists, why it is beautiful, where great symphonies come from, why inspiration uplifts the listener, or in fact any relevant thing about the meaning of music. The world in general has meaning, deep meaning at times. This cannot be dismissed as a delusion, an artifact of chemicals. Beauty and meaning can be known independent of a biochemical analysis.
The same analogy comes to mind whenever one hears that brain research will eventually explain all human thought and behavior. If a scientist could map every molecule in a radio as it was playing the Beethoven Fifth, there would be a complete diagram of the symphony at the level of matter. But the radio isn't Beethoven. It isn't his mind, and a diagram of Beethoven's brain, which would also be at the level of matter, is equally futile to explain what his mind was like except in the crudest terms.

For thousands of years human beings have been obsessed by beauty, truth, love, honor, altruism, courage, social relationships, art, and God. They all go together as subjective experiences, and it's a straw man to set God up as the delusion. If he is, then so is truth itself or beauty itself. God stands for the perfection of both, and even if you think truth and beauty (along with love, justice, forgiveness, compassion, and other divine qualities) can never be perfect, to say that they are fantasies makes no sense.

Science knows about objective reality, the mask of matter that our five senses detects. But the mind goes beyond the five senses, and it does Dawkins no good to lump the two worlds of inner and outer together. In fact, insofar as brain research can locate centers of activity that light up whenever a person feels love or pleasure or sexual arousal, these subjective states leave objective traces behind. That makes them more real, not less. In the same way, the brain lights up when a person feels inspired or close to God; therefore, we may be getting closer to the connection between inner and outer states, not further away.

This is only the outline of an argument against science as the only valid route to knowledge. Before going on to Dawkins' other points, let's see what responders have to say.

Comments 1 - 47 of 47 |

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1. Comment #6782 by goddogit on November 15, 2006 at 3:01 pm

I wondered when D.C. would weigh in, with all the force that a dog peeing against the Empire State building would have. A more useless critic has never been born with greater vanity.

2. Comment #6783 by Jon on November 15, 2006 at 3:03 pm

Ha! Deepak Chopra... Julia Sweeney said it best here: http://www.juliasweeney.com/letting_go_mini/audio3.html

His misunderstanding is summed up in the ridiculous straw man he calls "the bedrock of Dawkins' argument, as it is of most skeptics and scientific atheists":

"1. Science is the only valid way to gain knowledge. Nothing about God is needed to explain the world. Eventually science will uncover all mysteries. Those that it can't explain don't exist."

Surely science is the only way to gain RELIABLE knowledge about cosmological and biological processes. The supernatural has proven neither necessary nor useful in scientific explanation. This isn't because supernaturalists have been excluded, it's because they don't have anything to offer.

The third sentence isn't a claim any scientist would make and the fourth one is just a non sequitur.

3. Comment #6785 by CF1 on November 15, 2006 at 3:10 pm

Deepak, you've made some glaringly erroneous claims. RD does not discard beauty, love, music, art etc, he actually says that these are the things that he finds joy in and what make life great. But to make that gigantic leap to say: "There are these things like joy, love, etc etc, therefore, there is a god; oh, and it just happens to be the one I have in my back pocket, ya ya, that's it, the one I was raised with" is that giant, massive leap that thinking people just can't make.

4. Comment #6787 by Halden on November 15, 2006 at 3:16 pm

He argues that because of a maternal instinct that there is a god? What of the evolutionary causes for such an instinct?

5. Comment #6788 by Stever on November 15, 2006 at 3:17 pm

"1. Science is the only valid way to gain knowledge. Nothing about God is needed to explain the world. Eventually science will uncover all mysteries. Those that it can't explain don't exist"

The first & second sentences probably does represent what Dawkins and most athiests believe. However, the third and fourth sentences jarringly misrepresent Dawkins. For that reason, most of what follows is spurious and self-serving.

Dawkins "poisonous tone" is nothing of the sort, and even if it were, does NOT weaken (nor strengthen) his argument. Arguments stand or fall based on quality of the supporting evidence, not the TONE in which they are expressed.

"beauty, truth, love, honor, altruism, courage, social relationships, art, and God... all go together as subjective experiences, and it's a straw man to set God up as the delusion".
This is a non-argument; many of these subjective experiences ARE often the result of a delusion (e.g. love, honour, courage, art). What is "truth"? Surely it is something it is something OBJECTIVE - i.e. truth can only be established if compelling evidence is found, not some woolly subjective concept.

This reviewer leads himself up many garden paths with fuzzy logic.

6. Comment #6789 by David on November 15, 2006 at 3:21 pm

"Sadly, the media often follow his lead, erasing the truth, which is that many scientists are religious and many of the greatest scientists (including Newton and Einstein) probed deep into the existence of God."

Did he read the book?

"I know that I am conscious and have a self"

I see. A little gnome man who takes your thoughts and relays them to the gnome factory under the ground, where the gnome workers make your thoughts into reality, perhaps?

7. Comment #6793 by Jack Rawlinson on November 15, 2006 at 3:28 pm

A typically empty-headed "rebuttal" by one of our most infamous peddlers of spiritual snake oil. I won't waste any more time on this than Chopra evidently did actually reading Dawkins.

Science is the only valid way to gain knowledge.

Straw man, Dawkins didn't make this claim.

Nothing about God is needed to explain the world.

Correct, have a cracker. However, the choice of words - "nothing about God" - suggests the existence of god is a given, which has not been established. Shoddy logic.

Eventually science will uncover all mysteries.

Straw man, Dawkins didn't make this claim.

Those that it can't explain don't exist.

Straw man, Dawkins didn't make this claim.

Bring on the next shamelessly distorting religious idiot.

8. Comment #6808 by Randy Ping on November 15, 2006 at 4:15 pm

I wondered when this flim flam artist would weigh in and what argument he would make.
Well, the time is come and I can barely call that an argument. His vague , warm and fuzzy "It's true if it feels good" attitude is EXACTLY what is worst in the superstitionist viewpoint.

9. Comment #6827 by Louis Perry on November 15, 2006 at 5:59 pm

More Deepak Chopra mumbo-jumbo in defense of his earlier mumbo-jumbo.

10. Comment #6829 by Louis Perry on November 15, 2006 at 6:17 pm

Sorry for the second time around...

Deepak Chopra says, "The unfairness of this argument is that it squeezes God into a corner."

WHAT GOD, Dr. Chopra, WHAT GOD are you talking about?

11. Comment #6830 by Jared on November 15, 2006 at 6:19 pm

I really love the whole "point-by-point" thing. Apparently in this case he meant "just that one point." Unless, of course, he plans on writing up one of these each week like David Robertson. Between those two (not to say they are at ALL equal or interested in the same things), we'd have no free time at all on this board!

"They all go together as subjective experiences, and it's a straw man to set God up as the delusion. If he is, then so is truth itself or beauty itself."

Buh...wha??? This is one of the least logical statements I've ever heard in my life. I can't even think of which fallacy it is he's committing...some kind of fallacy of definition, perhaps, or just non-sequitur?

Beauty, truth, love and God are subjective experiences.
If God is a delusion, then all subjective experiences must be delusions.
Therefore, God is not a delusion.

Well, I'm sold. I just don't know WHAT I was thinking. Where can I buy Mr. Chopra's books? I have a raging headache I'd like for him to meditate on and cure for me :-P

12. Comment #6832 by One Eyed Jack on November 15, 2006 at 6:49 pm

I imagine that from DC's point of view, it is truly impossible to argue against God. When you define God as pretty much anything you want to (energy, beauty, art, thought, a good bowel movement) it makes it damned hard to nail anything down.

Personally, I think saw God today, but I can't be certain. He looked a lot like an apple sitting on my kitchen table. So, I'm not entirely sure if I had a religious experience or just an afternoon snack.

13. Comment #6837 by Janus on November 15, 2006 at 7:21 pm

"1. Science is the only valid way to gain knowledge. Nothing about God is needed to explain the world. Eventually science will uncover all mysteries. Those that it can't explain don't exist."

You're off to a pretty bad start when your summary of Dawkins' "bedrock" is a silly strawman.

14. Comment #6844 by kcjerith on November 15, 2006 at 8:27 pm

All of Mr. Chopa's arugments are rather weak, and i am not sure he has even bother to read Dawkins book.

1st. "Is science the only route to knowledge? Obviously not. I know that my mother loved me all her life, as I love my own children. I feel genius in great works of art. None of this knowledge is validated by science.

Actually, with the advancements science is making we are gaining a better understanding about the biological basis for are our emtions, but even if we were not making advancements and that we have no idea how emtions, or works of art come about it still does not make god any more likely to exist.

In fact, how does "god" explain any of those things, but what means does god cuase genuis or will? How do we measure, how big is it (bigger or smaller than a breadbox?) science is based on understanding causal relationships. Asserting the word "god" into an argument expalins nothing, and certianly doesn't validate his existance. If it were up to Mr. Chopa we would no longer need to explain the human brain/cognitve workings, why? Because there is no need to, god did it!

15. Comment #6845 by kcjerith on November 15, 2006 at 8:36 pm

on to another arugment,

"I have seen medical cures that science can't explain, some seemingly triggered by faith. The same is true of millions of other people."

Again if Mr. Chopa had actually read Dawkins book he would notice that Dawkins take on this subject. Basically every single study, that wasn't riddled with errors, has shown that prayer has no effect on sickness.

Again, I ask even if Chopa has seen such things how does this prove god did it? No causal relationship can be established, so saying god did something is meaningless.

Of course everyone on here has already made note about what Einstein really believed. But let us assume that Einstein did believe in god, so what? It doesn't make it true. Just because someone believes something, no matter how brillant they are, it does not make it true. What if an idiot believed in god, (oh wait..) doesn't that, by Chopa logic, mean that god doesn't exist. The intelligence of the believer has nothing to do with the truth value of the statment. If something is false it is false, if something is true it is true.

16. Comment #6846 by kcjerith on November 15, 2006 at 8:38 pm

Is this really Chopa? I thought he would haave something new to say or add, instead of the same old wishful thinking arugments.

17. Comment #6866 by Aussie on November 15, 2006 at 11:20 pm

"An example of this came on the visit to Randolph-Macon Women's College. One young woman asked him about anger at being misled by childhood role models. His immediately glazed response seemed to indicate he couldn't understand why a person should feel angry."

I was also surprised at his response to a suggestion that I thought would have been obvious. My conclusion was that he either did not hear the question properly (as he was obviously having considerable difficult hearing and/or understanding the accents of many of the questioners) or he purposely feigned ignorance in order to draw her out to allow her to elaborate and make her point more forcefully. I certainly do not attribute it to any form of stunted personality disorder.

18. Comment #6870 by goddogit on November 16, 2006 at 12:17 am

I thought I'd check in on the thread and see what Enlightened Master DC's benighted slaves would say in his defense: 50 comments so far, and 50 people basically telling DC they wanted to wash their hands and gargle after being exposed to his piece.
I bet DC is the sort who, hearing of this, will sock-puppet onto the thread and bore us even sillier. However, he may show up using his own name. If so, expect him to hint in metaphysically obscure ways at exactly how big a wad his nonsense has stuck into his grimy, fishhook-filled pockets.

19. Comment #6875 by Madhav on November 16, 2006 at 2:03 am

He obviously has not read any of Dawkins' books.

20. Comment #6877 by Derek on November 16, 2006 at 2:43 am

Hmm, it doesn't look like he actually read the book. He's arguing against what he thinks Dawkins believes instead of what he actually wrote. Poor showing, even for a crackpot mystic.

21. Comment #6884 by Steve on November 16, 2006 at 4:07 am

re: Comment #6848

This splendid piece of writing deserves its own thread! Here is a Christian priest who not only disbelieves the existence of God but also of Jesus of Nazareth.

Is atheism futile? Is the existence of God irrelevant to most people? Does the metaphysical truth really matter?

Is it better to ignore people's beliefs and concentrate on their needs?

Many people are simply not interested in the truth and wish to just get on with their lives as best they can.

Working out what the truth takes time, which is a limited commodity ... especially if there is no afterlife.

22. Comment #6888 by Shaun on November 16, 2006 at 4:27 am

The first part of the "review" reads as "Mummy Mummy the man said a mean thing"

The second proves he has not read ANY Dawkins books, as Richard constantly investigates and discusses the reasons and effects of all the things Chopra mentions.

Foolish nonsense

23. Comment #6890 by oj on November 16, 2006 at 4:35 am

John Martin,

Thanks for a very interesting article!

May I ask you what you think about John Shelby Spong and his ideas?

I posted about Spong in the Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title) by David Robertson.

I don't think Robertson will answer it.

Regards,

Ole

24. Comment #6903 by Jack Rawlinson on November 16, 2006 at 6:18 am

Melisande: what's wrong with calling a fallacy by the correct name? The vast majority of the critics of The God Delusion have scattered so many... uhhh.... hay hombres about it's hard to avoid commenting on the fact.

25. Comment #6905 by Tintern on November 16, 2006 at 6:32 am

"I have seen medical cures that science can't explain, some seemingly triggered by faith."
No, you haven't. You've seen people get better. A happy occurence, and a joy to have an opportunity to gain medical knowledge without the sadness of loss. Just be man enough to step aside and let the good doctor find out what happened, so he can make it happen again.

26. Comment #6929 by Michael on November 16, 2006 at 7:59 am

If Dr. Chopra intends to argue against RD "point by point", then he should be using direct quotes from RD as those points rather than cobbling together "statements" off the top of his head.

27. Comment #6930 by Manfred on November 16, 2006 at 8:03 am

What utter rubbish! Either he has not read The God Delusion (like many other reviewers) or he has just not understood Richard Dawkins' arguments. Reminds me of this Bertrand Russell's quote:
"A stupid man's report of what a clever man says can never be accurate, because he unconsciously translates what he hears into something he can understand."

28. Comment #6936 by Zaphod on November 16, 2006 at 8:23 am

I read this article until this

"I have seen medical cures that science can't explain, some seemingly triggered by faith."

I had to stop.

Sorry Chopra no evidence.

29. Comment #6937 by Zaphod on November 16, 2006 at 8:25 am

I hate when people try to use things like beauty and emotions to someone prove god exists.

Even if science can't prove something or understand it doesn't mean god did it.

30. Comment #6938 by Zaphod on November 16, 2006 at 8:28 am

beauty, truth, love, honor, altruism, courage, social relationships, art, and God.

When does god have to be among this group. Aren't they particularly pleasing and plausible without him.

I don't need or want god. I can appreciate beauty, truth, love, honor, altruism, courage, social relationships and art without god.

31. Comment #6939 by Zaphod on November 16, 2006 at 8:29 am

Let chopra pray to god instead of seeking a surgeon if he needs a heart transplant.

James Randis award is safe.

32. Comment #6977 by Anonymous on November 16, 2006 at 12:48 pm

I find these fluffy arguments really pretentious. They seem quite common.
As far as i'm aware, music started off as a form of communication in africa. Somebody worked out that if they hit a drum, the noise travels longer distances. Probably became more complex and some people realised they liked music for the sake of it (and some people have no sense of rhythm and are tone deaf).
As for art - one day there was somebody who liked animals and the way they run about - i've had a brainwave - i think i'll draw one on my cave, it caught on - hey presto - art was born. (and yet to this day some people couldn't draw if their life depended on it).
There are trends in art and music. Memetics anyone?
Does god like people less that are both tone deaf and can't paint?
Ok, you get mavericks that can play music or paint well at a really young age. Their brains are wired up in a different way - that's all.
But if they were never exposed to music / musical instruments or paint - they might never realise they were good at it and their talents might manifest themselves in a different way.
Is tiger woods talent god given? I think he was just born a lucky bastard (the genetic jackpot for golf) and then he practiced a lot.
It's like someone saying - If no creature had wings, would god have given humans the urge to fly.
Look mate, leave me alone you pretentious fool, I'm trying to fix my car. (aahh...we know how the car works, but what gave us the inspiration to build one). They built up to it in stages of progressive ideas starting with the wheel - go away please - my gearbox is screwed and you're not helping.

33. Comment #6979 by Anonymous on November 16, 2006 at 12:50 pm

What a load of shite. Is there anyone out there with a brain that can properly argue against Dawkins? Time after time I have to wade through the same reconstituted drivel, the same points missed, the bizzare misconceptions. If this is the best the "arguments" the anti Dawkins lobby can put up then why do they bother. This Chopra twat, reason is obviously some undiscovered continent as far as he is concerned. Who is this Choppy bloke with the malfunctioning intellect? What else does he do besides fart out of his mouth. I'm about 80% through TGD and Dawkins has so many bases covered I shudder with awe. Truely mind lifting and mind liberating.

34. Comment #6983 by Riley on November 16, 2006 at 12:59 pm

Without a meanigful definition for what is meant by "God", any discussion on the matter with Mr Chopra or anyone else is irrelevent.

35. Comment #7008 by Terry on November 16, 2006 at 3:30 pm

Am I the only person to miss the reviewers proof that his god exists?

It almost seems as though this individual didn't read The God Delusion.

36. Comment #7012 by Steve on November 16, 2006 at 4:22 pm

Where and when has any scientist, including Dawkins, ever said that, "Those (mysteries) that it (science) can't explain don't exist"?

I immediately lose interest, and respect, when reviewers, unable to meet the real issues head on, simply make things up.

37. Comment #7019 by Damien White on November 16, 2006 at 5:15 pm

Mr Chopra seems to be arguing from a platform already addressed in The God Delusion: namely "the God that Richard Dawkins is against is not my God". DC asks 'what of the god of this' and 'what of the god of that' without telling us why any of these gods should escape critisism or are any more valid than any others.

38. Comment #7048 by Wozza on November 16, 2006 at 9:33 pm

John Martin,

Well said, well written, well done.

I could have done with someone like you at my parent's church.

39. Comment #7090 by Anonymous on November 17, 2006 at 5:28 am

I think i can safely lob this in the "Aren't we great" bin. Complexity over time trumps narcissism. The only weakness is multiverse theory. Note to physicists - must try harder

40. Comment #7200 by goddogit on November 17, 2006 at 3:55 pm

I went around and read some more of DC's "work" and those quotation marks may give a hint of my opinion. He really should be listed as a comic writer. He is perhaps the worst science commenter now being published (and I include people like Ken Ham, Casey Luskin, and Ken Hovind in that category).

Dull, transparently stupid, poorly written, etc., etc., etc.

Someone should get a cream pie in his I-am-the-savior-but-can't-mention-it face and post the video here. Whipped cream covered horse Manure would be the pie I would choose.

41. Comment #7287 by melisande on November 18, 2006 at 5:12 am

Comment #7052 by Joad

"As it stands now, I can simply state that my opponent presented a strawman argument, and I need make no further comment."

That would be nice but I see a constant reiteration of the argument anyway, so I felt initially that one should dispense with identification and get on with whatever it is they want to say.

But! I am newcomer to these ongoing debates so I had little contact with the terminology in which debates are to be held.

I've just seen the term utilized so much by either side I tend to skip whatever comes afterward. Maybe everyone should just get to the point, instead of all this hay.

But that is not the essence of Debate. The essence of Debate is debating! So I'm completely unfit in this regard.
It just seems like so many spitballs in the classroom.
I still think there are other terms that could say the same thing.
It's simply a matter of annoyance... I didn't think anyone would take that much offense to my half assed antagonism towards the phrase.

Tilting at windmills? Disambiguation? Misleading?
Whatever, I realize that it's a part of a terminology that I've recently come into contact with that wasn't part of my earlier vernacular.
Maybe like the black jellybean example, once I've become aware of this specific thing I see it everywhere....but I don't. Just this topic.
Maybe I'm just not involved in other topics where the word is bandied about so much.
Oh well. I'll still invite you to the burning of the straw man.
;^D

42. Comment #7442 by goddogit on November 18, 2006 at 2:37 pm

Dr. Rene's defense of religion sounds exactly like "better a quack medicine than none" to me at least, but this "Dr." evidently believes that EVERYONE should be taking it ("What's the harm?") and that those who point out its complete ineffectiveness, and many, many deadly side-effects, be condemned.
What a stupid, yet dishonest and cynical, position to advance!

It is SO despicably, self-serving and ridiculous that I smell the proverbial rat.

Is that you DC?

43. Comment #7817 by Seti on November 19, 2006 at 2:12 pm

Dawkins answers all of this with his quote from Douglas Adams. "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful, without having to beleive there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

44. Comment #19886 by themind on January 30, 2007 at 1:13 pm

Could anyone tell me what program this debate between Chopra and Dawkins took place on? And what month it was on, or as close to the date as possible? I only know that it was in late 2006, but a month would be helpful. You can purchase individuals programs on Channel 4's website to view online, so that's what I'm going to do with this. There are so many programs on the site, I have no idea where to look.

Other Comments by themind

45. Comment #62510 by MackStraw on August 10, 2007 at 2:29 am

Mr. Dawkins is a well read man when it comes to science but not necessarily so when it comes to religion. Due to his unawareness about various religious texts that have profound meaning he has made some very superficial, and pompous arguments. A lot is found in religion that if followed will bring about more peace, and progress.

His understanding of religion focuses on the many limitations that religions have propogated, just like what numerous news channel fill the world with - "The Religious Islamic Fundamentalists". While this part of the religion may be a different and an exclusive scenario, it is not right to be formed as a basis of criticizing religion in general.

Over the ages many of the religious texts have been doctored, however a lot in it has been scientifically analyzed to be true.

Mr. Chopra just like the learned Mr. Dawkins may not be a Mr. Know All, but it is important not to go all out and deride each other with the incomplete knowledge. However Mr. Chopra has had a significantly higher experience in reading various religious texts, beliefs and in understanding the context in which they are meant to be. Besides this Mr. Chopra has a specialization in the medical field that is purely born out of science so is well versed with the ways of scientific enquiry.

At the same time there have been numerous unexplained phenomenas. We are not able to even answer simple questions like how we came into existence. (The Big Bang is the best 'possible' explanation but no one is sure, science does not explain how a single cell takes the form of arms, legs etc, and the working of the human body (cant even think of producing skin in the labs, most of the body is still a miracle)- we just record and reproduce the observations and mistake it for scientific understanding of the complete process, also the numerous experiments on telepathy showed some amazing results as conducted by the Russians and the Americans and they do defy any known laws of physics).

When we realize that science, that has contributed in a big way to a comfortable life most of us have, is still at its early stages of development and discovery, it is foolish to say based on the pre-mature and partial knowledge that "God" is a delusion.

This might have been believed if science were at a stage that could explain the loads of biological, chemical, geographical, astronomical, etc wonders that it cannot today.

Till then there is something bigger, people call it God, that makes these wonders alive, that can be seen by a priest and a scientist but not understood or explained, forget about recreating it.

Other Comments by MackStraw

46. Comment #73228 by Gnosis on September 24, 2007 at 2:14 pm

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." - Albert Einstein

Richard Dawkins has no true knowledge of religion. I'm sorry to delude you; but this is clearly the case of the blind leading the blind.

From his writings, it's evident that Dawkins has never had a true experience of a higher states of consciousness. His consciousness has always been trapped in his left-brain hemisphere, just like most secular Westerners. It's obvious why most Western scientists can't cognize any Divine Intelligence in the natural phenomena they profess to study: instead of living in the world, they live solely in the circular thought chatter of their minds. No wonder that this methodology can't figure out from where the so-called physical laws of the universe come from!

Dawkins and his ilk have no understanding of Consciousness, and they are unquestionably unqualified to talk about spirituality and the nature of the Mind and the Universe. They don't even acknowledge the basic facts that individual Consciousness is not dependent on the brain and that it precedes physical birth and survives bodily death - a fact that it's even validated by myriad scientific studies and analytical psychology. The body of evidence for this is vastly huge. If you're really interested, (and I'm not so sure you are), consult the studies by Raymond Moody, David Fontana, Anthony Peake and Steve Taylor about these issues. The fact the our scientific establishment (or clergy?) doesn't recognize their findings doesn't mean that they're not valid, it rather means that our scientists are myopic, and bigotedly so. Materialism has been repeatedly refuted even by our science, and yet we keep upholding it matter what. Rationality, anyone?

I can't understand why you have so much confidence in people who have never bothered to study religion seriously. They are totally ignorant of seminal spiritual traditions such as the Perennial Philosophy, Jungian Psychology, esoteric traditions such as theosophy and anthroposophy, Gnosticism, the ancient wisdom of the Ancient sages, the Vedas, Taoism, Pantheism, the various schools of Buddhism... the list is endless... How can such people talk about the Divine in Men? What experience they have of transcendence? And since you all seem to claim that you are so reasonable and rational, how can you have confidence in the claims these persons?

What really strikes me about Dawkins is his religious faith in the ordinary senses and in this transient world of mere appearance. And this really strikes me as odd, since even science tells us that that the way we perceive our surroundings in the space-time continuum is not an accurate picture of the world. Anybody who is familiar with quantum physicsm and perception would attest to this. There's always an anthropic principle that distorts our sensory observation.

Nevertheless, the realm of the Infinite does not exclusively belong to the senses or to reason alone, but also to our innate intuitive connection with the all pervasive Life Principle... It is The All - the Isness and the Suchness of the innermost essence of Cosmos. And this is not the domain of scientists, but of poets and mystics; it can't be grasped with scientific inquiry, but with deep meditation; it's not the object of relative thought, but of absolute stillness. It is the voice of silence.

Nevertheless, I think that only a charlatan would buy into this science vs. religion polarity. This is a ridiculous dichotomy; a mind-shrinking controversy that should have no place among freethinkers and sensible truth seekers. Haven't we learned anything from luminaries as Einstein, Jung, Madame Blavatsky and Rudolph Steiner? What pleasure it gives you to deny your own souls?

We live in a soulful universe which exhibits infinite intelligence and possibilities. We are part of a dynamic universe urgent with animated and intelligent life. And yet we keep rejecting in a dogmatic fashion any spiritual foundation to our existence and to the origins of life. This just goes to show that despite its rational pretensions, mechanistic science is just another form of religious fundamentalism - another eloquent medium of mass ignorance.

Only the combined study of science, comparative religion and philosophy will help us understand the nature of the universe and our place in it. The unification of these disciplines has been one of the main objectives of the Theosophical Society.

There's no higher religion than Truth.

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47. Comment #285344 by MeganFrances on November 17, 2008 at 3:33 am

Actually when I checked out Deepak Chopra's website and found that he promotes woo-woo like astrology and ayurvedic medicine, my already skeptical opinion of his credibility reached zero. Anyway what is so ugly and awful about contemplating a biochemical process? It really is the most amazing thing. I also hate the way words like 'truth' and 'beauty' are co-opted into the whole process of taking life for granted that religion is - or whatever Deepak Chopra's brand of quackery is. Without the curious, questing, element in exploring the unknown that human endeavour in activities like scientific analysis is, words like 'truth' and 'beauty' turn in on themselves and become empty, ugly, meaningless cliches.

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